Marth's weaknesses

[Ness_success]

you cant complain about marths throws, when he has an infinite throw that can go upto 999% to people like me T_T

 

[AdmiralComrade]

if u DI out of it i think he cant? after.. like 30% or 40% =\

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

if u DI out of it i think he cant? after.. like 30% or 40% =\

Marth can grab release Ness and Lucas infinitely and there's nothing they can do about it.

Nothing.

Also, Marth's Fsmash comes out in 10 frames. That's 2 frames faster than the human reaction time. If it weren't unsafe on block, it would be horribly broken.

 

[Browny]

whats MKs dsmash frame data... like 3 or something?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pretty sure it's frame 6. But I could be wrong.

 

[Megavitamins]

Marth can grab release Ness and Lucas infinitely and there's nothing they can do about it.

Nothing.

Also, Marth's Fsmash comes out in 10 frames. That's 2 frames faster than the human reaction time. If it weren't unsafe on block, it would be horribly broken.

Some ness players I've played have done a jumping grab release even if I hit them by having tap jump on, hitting up on the analog stick and just masing the jump buttons when they get grabbed. Seems to work for them just fine.

 

[takeurlife2]

you cant complain about marths throws, when he has an infinite throw that can go upto 999% to people like me T_T

Actaully, it's a release grab, Marth never actually "throws" them =p

 

[Sudsy86_]

Emblem, I've played Marth extensively the past two days ( it has to be at least seven hours yesterday and two hours so far today), and now conclude he is necessarily Low high tier ( the one after top in my format) or no worse than high in mid-high tier. I've concluded that because his fast, powerful tech skill is very superior to most characters, his reach with all attacks are at least above-average to great. Also, he techs from aerials to tilts very fast considering both's range. Plus, it's hard to NOT dominate the air once a feel for the general circumstances is attained.

I've concluded my arguments against him aren't too relevant, considering they aren't his practical moves anyways.

The only reason he's not at least as high as DDD, Falco, or ROB, is because he doesn't have a projectile--which is exponentionally useful is Brawl especially.

However, I was just playing really well with all characters so I'm not sure if Marth necessarily was the primary cause for his apparent dominance.

I would place him right above Mario/ Lucario and right below DDD, ROB, and Falco.

I've also concluded my previous experience was a too lazy, unprecise experiment--which is why I thought he kind of sucked before.

My bad. Completely.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario is like.....waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then Mario.

Like...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Anyway, most consider Marth to be superior to R.O.B and Falco. I personally consider all three of them to be interchangeable on any tier list as far as placement is concerned.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Lucario is like.....waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better then Mario.

Like...waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Anyway, most consider Marth to be superior to R.O.B and Falco. I personally consider all three of them to be interchangeable on any tier list as far as placement is concerned.

I don't honestly see how Lucario is. He's one of my five best characters, but all the best Mario's I see disrupt so any things with fireballs and capes. The fireballs are always expected, but the cape can come out before most aerials can, resulting in a temporary messed up sense of direction. If you're off the edge, those two alone can be killers.

Mario's a great character.

I consider Falco to probably be the best of the three because of his camping laser, reflector, smash strategy which most use. I main ROB because of all his high quickness attacks and recovery, though. Marth CAN'T camp against projectile users, not that being aggressive isn't something Marth of all people can't handle.

I only think DDD is good because a lot of his users I've played against are really good with him. I **** him with my Marth, though.

 

[∫unk]

....

lucario is good. way better than mario. disjointed hitboxes > any of marios moves. actually mario has no priority or range, things that lucario have, against anyone. mario's projectile is annoying but easily avoidable. lucarios projectile can be used similarly but also to kill.

they both have really bad recoveries... i think mario's is worse though cause he falls faster.

and falco's reflector sucks.

ROB is gay.

 

[EggZavier]

Now I can beat Marth. Thanks

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario has better range, better kill moves, better camping, better edge guarding. Just better tools to work with. It's that simple really. Mario is below average in everything. Lucario outdoes his on all fronts.

The Mario's you play might just be good, but there is no denying that Lucario is the superior character.

 

[Remzi]

I personally consider all three of them to be interchangeable on any tier list as far as placement is concerned.

but...but you *****ed at me when I said Falco and R.O.B were better than Marth.

You said Marth was superior to both of them. I demand an apology! lol. But yea, why the sudden change of heart? I think R.O.B is a slightly better character than Marth, I'm not sure about Falco anymore though...

 

[Emblem Lord]

No change of heart?

Just the reasoning you gave, wasn't really good enough.

I consider them all pretty close. Although Marth is doing better in tournaments and has better match-ups overall then both of them.

 

[Remzi]

Ah I see, its just that IIRC, you said Marth was better than both of them at that time. Maybe my memory just sucks, but I thought that was what you said.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh.

Going by results Marth is better and if he is then it's not by much.

 

[Bomber7]

Yes:
>He's floaty/light weight
>A bit weaker than in meele in many aspects of of his attacking
>not as fast as in meele
>Risky for killing
>anything else you guys have said.

My conclusion is that you watch yourself when fighting. Be a good mover(running dodging), make smooth combos as him. Practice(if you want to master it-->) Meteor smashing. Take your time and be on your toes.

 

[Beetle Juice]

well is easier to get through in brawl because he last longer in the air and all his air moves has openings. for example, marth fair you roll and get a free smash and he can't do ****.

P.S. go falco =)

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I don't honestly see how Lucario is. He's one of my five best characters, but all the best Mario's I see disrupt so any things with fireballs and capes. The fireballs are always expected, but the cape can come out before most aerials can, resulting in a temporary messed up sense of direction. If you're off the edge, those two alone can be killers.

Alright, say a Mario capes the Lucario in the air, turning him around, and the Lucario was going to Fair him, but instead, he Bairs him. Ah!!! it's the end of the world as we know it! /sarcasm

But seriously, I have to agree with everyone but you this time, Lucario>>>>>>>>>Mario. No, Lucario>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mario.

And about you getting disrupted by fire balls and capes, maybe your Lucario is just bad... Didn't think about that nw did ya?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucario has better range, better kill moves, better camping, better edge guarding. Just better tools to work with. It's that simple really. Mario is below average in everything. Lucario outdoes his on all fronts.

The Mario's you play might just be good, but there is no denying that Lucario is the superior character.

Not saying Mario is better than Lucario, but I largely disagree that Mario is below average in everything. There are only two things I find Mario is below average in. Attack range (not priority, which Mario is quite fine with since his D-air outprioritizes the Mach Tornado) and grab range (which I really agree is serious). Everything else about him is just fine (damage dealing and landing KO moves), and he's quite good in terms of speed.

Also, it's pretty much fact Mario is above average at juggling (like 2 U-airs a second? Nonsense!). You can go ask the R.O.B. boards if you don't believe me. 7/3 in Mario's favor ftw.

Better kill moves? Not really. Lucario's Smashes are all really easy to see coming, and they aren't particularly strong either unless if Lucario is at the percents where he can be killed. Mario's Smashes are all MUCH faster than Lucario's Smashes, and Mario's F-smash in particular can be pivoted or double stutter stepped for VERY good range, and the Up-angled one is particularly powerful. Lucario also can't kill vertically at all, while Mario can kill most characters at around 120% with his quick and high priority U-smash.

On the other hand, I'll note Lucario has significantly better aerials for killing.

I don't think Lucario is better at ledgeguarding than Mario. He puts himself at a lot more risk jumping off of the stage. Plus Mario's Cape (amazing when ledgestalled) and FLUDD (force people on the stage to grab the ledge or stop their recovery moves from grabbing the ledge) are quite useful in their own right. On a more minor note, Lucario doesn't have the option of spiking recoveries, while Mario does (which of course is more significant for recoveries that suffer in terms of vertical distance).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Overall, Lucario's f-smash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of Mario's kill moves due to insane range and safety.

Mario's kill moves aren't as safe in comparison and he has to sweetspot his f-smash to kill.

And Mario's spike is just bad.

And I would definitely argue that R.O.B has 7/3 advantage on Mario....but I don't main R.O.B or care enough to debate it.

 

[Fizzle]

Overall, Lucario's f-smash >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of Mario's kill moves due to insane range and safety.

That's right, folks. Keep reppin' the god tier of Luc's fsmash.

But, yeah, I wouldn't say Lucario vs Mario is a **** matchup or anything (probably 40-60 or 50-50), but Lucario has much better matchups than Mario. Lucario does surprisingly well against Snake, Meta, and DDD. He's 50-50 or so with most of the cast. The only characters that can really give him trouble are G&W and maybe Olimar.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

I think i add my two cents.(i dont know so much about these two so i will GTFO if needed)

Lucario>Mario

1.Lucario has more safer attacks, more range,better grabs,and a more higherdmg%=more dmg.

2.Mario has a fire ball has mabye a bit more options then Lucario's shadow ball but then it lacks any real knock back whichs make a stall/gimp move.

3.As for move's Lucario's Down air should mostly **** all or mario A-attacks in terms of usefulness any of Lucario other have alot more dmg and better safer hitbox's.

4.Mabye Mario has better B moves(i dont know too much about Lucarios).

5.Basicly Lucario has more options when it come's to attacking which make up for his weakness at the edge.



As for Marth i fond a great way to sum him up,Marth really has no "real" weakness but he doesn't really have anything to overpower him(it would not take much to make Marth broken tho.)

 

[Sudsy86_]

Lucario has better range, better kill moves, better camping, better edge guarding. Just better tools to work with. It's that simple really. Mario is below average in everything. Lucario outdoes his on all fronts.

The Mario's you play might just be good, but there is no denying that Lucario is the superior character.

One thing Mario has an advantage over Lucario with is attack lag. Generally, I think Mario's moves are a little quicker.

Besides, the fact that Lucario's moves are more powerful don't mean much when your opponent's have time to dodge. I know lag disguises the attack's beginning, but you know what's coming, though, anyways.

I was playing Mario a few minutes ago in a lag-induced battle. He seemed to kind of move slower than I had thought ( I hadn't used him in maybe a week). But, I can confirm his cape and fireballs are two AMAZING metagame enhancers for certain.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Alright, say a Mario capes the Lucario in the air, turning him around, and the Lucario was going to Fair him, but instead, he Bairs him. Ah!!! it's the end of the world as we know it! /sarcasm

Actually, he fairs in the opposite direction intended. Your whole body is turned around roughly 180 degrees.

But seriously, I have to agree with everyone but you this time, Lucario>>>>>>>>>Mario. No, Lucario>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mario.

How redundant...

And about you getting disrupted by fire balls and capes, maybe your Lucario is just bad... Didn't think about that nw did ya?

Gee, no. I have never been aware of my ability with any characters. I'll REALLY have to look into that.

My Lucario is in no way bad. The only times I lose with him is when I take my opponent's second-to-last stock before he takes mine, provoking his little ***** camping, ( this makes me have love/hate feelings towards the game) forcing me to pick spots while he sits, dodges, and spams while he camps continuously.

Otherwise, I'm usually quite a tank with him. I doubt I would handle Azen's ( especially because he's a pretty big camper and more patient than I am), but I think I'm better than above-average for sure...

Short hop fireballs and capes performed by aware players IS necessarily going to be hard to get around--more so than any other character's screwing-up strategy. I mean, you can defeat it by spamming, but, the point is, it's going to be hard to get around.

 

[Darxmarth23]

i belive emblem lord just pointed out all of marths weaknesses.still everybody plays differently so different weaknesses apply to different people.i for one, double f-air alo but many times its easily escaped and i am punished.many times it goes the other way.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

i belive emblem lord just pointed out all of marths weaknesses.still everybody plays differently so different weaknesses apply to different people.i for one, double f-air alo but many times its easily escaped and i am punished.many times it goes the other way.

QFT . 10charlimt

 

[A2ZOMG]

Mario's kill moves aren't as safe in comparison and he has to sweetspot his f-smash to kill.

Okay, I can safely say you're wrong about the F-smash.

Mario's non-sweetspotted F-smash only requires 10% more to kill than a sweetspotted one. I tested this one. It has more knockback than the first hit of MK's D-smash, Teh_Spammerer even told me that.

And Mario's spike is just bad

Well...at least he doesn't kill himself like he did in Melee using it. And it's not tricky to aim like persay Falcon's, G&W's, or Luigi's D-air. =/

Not that it really means anything relevant here, but it also has autocancel frames when Mario's back is facing the ground.

And I would definitely argue that R.O.B has 7/3 advantage on Mario....but I don't main R.O.B or care enough to debate it.

The ROB boards see it the other way around. =/

Mario can juggle ROB all day, and Fireballs + Cape are actually an issue for ROB to deal with. And he's an easy target for the U-smash kill at 120%. ROB also has a hard time gimping Mario because Mario's Up-B is really fast and has gigantic priority.

 

[∫unk]

Falcon, Luigi, and G&W's spikes are so different in nature I'm not sure how you grouped them together.

If you mentioned TL and G&W that would make sense.. but there isn't much punishment to attempting a spike with luigi and falcon, while with G&W it's most likely a SD.

 

[Megavitamins]

How the heck did we go from discussing marths weaknesses to debating mario and rob?

 

[A2ZOMG]

The topic changed because someone was comparing Mario and Lucario, and I disagreed with Emblem Lord. Go figure. XD

Falcon, Luigi, and G&W's spikes are so different in nature I'm not sure how you grouped them together.

They are spikes you pretty much can't aim. All three require a very situational and short duration sweetspot.

Mario's at least has somewhat lingering spike frames and the hitbox isn't too terrible. Basically it's the kind of spike where if your opponent wouldn't air dodge, you could land it consistently. The other spikes are difficult to actually SPIKE with.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so, pretty much, all of my mains suck? ouch...

 

[legion598]

well in observation of his horrible kill moves u obviously have to take it off the stage and have a gimp fight marth is very very good at gimping sadly this has nearly no effect vs. MK and snake and a few others with horribly good recovery but even with large recovery it might still be advantagous to take them off the stage and try d-air spiking. and if all else fails at 130% u can throw out a dolphin slash off of a perfect shield which is a very fast kill move

 

[Linguini]

man...im back to maining marth, hes alot of fun...the onyl fun char in brawl for me atm.
time to rep him up.

 

[meepxzero]

against any real good snake or mk marths only safe moves are fair and forward b. As much as i love dtilt it is by all means NOT safe against these two ;\. Take it as a weakness or a strength it just gives a lot less options for attack imo, but it does simplify what to do to win against these 2.

And yah pretty much kill moves come when the opponent makes laggy mistakes.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Safe = A move that is unpunishable on block.

D-tilt is safe on block. Far more safe then db. And it has more range then db. Although db is 3 frames faster.

Still, I must ask.

Meep...what the crap are you talking about?

Edit: And fair is even less of a viable option vs Snake. >__>

 

[meepxzero]

im going by speed of attacks that mk and snake do and dtilt is to slow to use in most cases. The only real moves that outspeed them would b instant fair outta short hop or forward b. I play a snake and mk all the time =_= so i would know.

dtilting half the time against either is asking to have ur hitboxes vunerable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Doesn't change the definition of the word though.

You should have said more viable in the match then, not safe, since the word safe has a clear definition. And I find d-tilt works just fine vs Snake.

Yes, d-tilts use does take a hit vs MK though since it doesn't outrange him and is 3 frames slower then his. You are better off trying to use it to bait him or create false openings to try to get him to rush you so you can stuff him.


Also how can hitboxes be vulnerable? Especially Marth's considering they aren't attached to his body.

I'm nitpicking, but really...you might confuse some people >_>.

 

[meepxzero]

there have been countless times ive challenged snakes ftilt with dtilt and instantly died or even his utilt with dtilt and mks dsmash/fsmash. I dunno marth feels more vunerable now when hes dtilting against people who can challenge him in range.