Marth's weaknesses

[feardragon64]

If they refuse to accept something widely accepted as a fact(i.e. you're better off playing marth differently from melee), then let em play that way.

Anyways, is it too early to start some discussion on how to get around the problems, or are we still just focusing on Marth's weaknesses?

Edit: I figured I might also include some thoughts on Marth's weaknesses:

Firstly, agreed with most of the things in EL's post. What I didn't agree with, I'll consent I don't have as much experience in with that sort of situation.

Maybe I personally just suck at spacing, but I do feel Marth is outranged by a bit more of the cast that he should be at times. Too many characters have disjointed hitboxes now(g&w, IC, ike, DDD, Lucario, MK, Olimar, I mean even kirby's feet are disjointed). I guess I wouldn't say it's exactly a disadvantage persay, but it does bug me that marth's range isn't as great in comparison to others. But that may just be me thinking of melee marth, in which case you can ignore this one.

Another thing. Marth has a hard spike to pull off. End of story. Other characters just have it much easier here.

And last thing I can think of, not only does marth not have a projectile, but after a while projectile spam becomes hard to deal with. You can only chase down that falco spamming lasers for so long before you start to get hit more than you want to during the approach. Marth doesn't have some magical way to dodge them all either(some characters can just duck them >>). And as lovely as perfect shielding them all sounds, it's something you can only do for so long...

I think pretty much everything was already mentioned. I'll give it some more thought later.

 

[Mikey7]

Just a comment on the thread itself, I think every character section needs this type of analysis in as much detail as this is going into. Great thread. Sorry...I've got nothing to contribute to this discussion except that playing Marth like his melee counterpart is not the best method because of the obvious nerfing of fsmash and marth's overall range (fair, not that its not still a great move but it cannot be used to the extent that it was used in melee). Then again I don't really consider myself in any type of position to give people advice because I'm so inexperienced, I just had to comment on the usefulness of the thread. Seems that alot of people still play Marth by melee standards i.e. fairs and fsmashes, not enough dtilt.

 

[Demonstormkill]

The most annoying thing about marth is that you get punished pretty severely for the slightest mistakes, especially with his poor horizontal recovery and lightness. Although I actually feel he's at least the second best character in the game if used to his potential, maybe the best if snake can be consistently gimped.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Short hop dancing blade isn't a good approach and is easily punished. That's one of those things you pull out maybe once or twice in a match, if used at all.

And marth certainly doesn't suck, since he is probably around top 5 best in the game.

Short hopping dancing blade will get you two weak hits in usually. Jumping a little higher will allow him to perform the faster end of the attack which essentially is as useful as it is strictly on the ground.

I wouldn't use it as an approach necessarily as I would maybe instead of a time when you would be wise to DownB an attack--just a little earlier to assure you will be able to land and finish off the attack.

I use it maybe six times in a three stock match.

Perhaps Marth doesn't suck; I just think MK, ROB, Snake, G&W, Mario, Dedede, Lucario--and maybe Peach, Zelda, and Diddy--are better than him.

Also, I can't help but conclude his metagame is very limited.

 

[BacklashMarth]

^Now that i think about it, i snake would be bottom tier if only that were the case demon. Oh well, at least the mofo is spike bait if i dont know how to recover. Anyway, i think marth not having the amazing dash attack he had in melee took away an important approach move from his arsenal. I mean c'mon, if ur dash attack sucks, that means u gotta use a special move or short hopped one to approach (or tilt i supppose). When i first played marth in brawl, and i noticed the ugly laggy step animation marth makes to do the move, i almost chucked my controller at the screen.

P.S. i was gonna say something about metagame, but i figure it doesnt contribute to this thread.

 

[Steel]

His metagame is limited? Worse than mario, lucario, peach, zelda, and diddy? lulz. He goes even with the rest of those characters except for MK.

His meta game only just recently stopped evolving, where as other characters stopped evolving within the first few weeks of the game.

 

[Mazaloth]

One, thing that most people neglect is the size of the opponment.

Most of Marth's attacks (mainly aerals), are not suited for characters that are short, such as Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, and Kirby.

His Fair goes top to bottom in a vertical slice, that problem in this is that, by the time you try to execute the attack, the slice will be to high to hit.

Bair, is bad because it is a bottom to top, self-expalintory.

Small Characters are another weakness of Marth.

 

[BacklashMarth]

One, thing that most people neglect is the size of the opponment.

Most of Marth's attacks (mainly aerals), are not suited for characters that are short, such as Ness, Lucas, Toon Link, and Kirby.

His Fair goes top to bottom in a vertical slice, that problem in this is that, by the time you try to execute the attack, the slice will be to high to hit.

Bair, is bad because it is a bottom to top, self-expalintory.

Small Characters are another weakness of Marth.

U have a point, except for the fact that marth can handle most of the small characters fairly well (minus metaknight) and he outranges most of them also. Them being so light only means that marth will only have to get them up to 50% then tipper for the win.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Sudsy are you serious?

>_>

WTF@your post.

Same with yours. The only thing openly objectable I see in my post is that I assert aerial over B would generally be suprising and that Marth kind of sucks. With the first, the majority of Marth users will short hop fair like crazy, dair, or even reverse over dancing blade.

The second one was based off experimental comparisons and are projections of realistic playing expectations not on a conceivable "highest" level but more on a pragmatic projection of "high" level play. if you disagree, it's fine with me. But I need to see an argument rendering his serious missed attack recovery time not so comparitively detrimental.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sudsy - You are just plain wrong.

Marth is 5th in tourney results and his match-ups are excellent. Marth's metagame went longer then pretty much every other character.

I mean do you even know Marth?

Honestly, I'm not shocked though. All of NY ****s on Marth so I really don't think your opinion is all that valid since every NYer I talked to doesn't know much about him really.

MK, D3, Snake and G&W are better then Marth. And only barely.

That's it.

Peach, Mario, Zelda, Lucario and Diddy?

Are you drugged?

And what missed attack lag are you referring too?

Smash attacks?

Duh. We already said you can't spam them.

 

[Sudsy86_]

His metagame is limited? Worse than mario, lucario, peach, zelda, and diddy? lulz. He goes even with the rest of those characters except for MK.

His meta game only just recently stopped evolving, where as other characters stopped evolving within the first few weeks of the game.

Overall, I think so. I know he has great matchups against Mario and especially diddy, but those two, Lucario, and Peach have great projectile games, though only having one means of producing one.

Marth isn't THAT powerful of a character, he doesn't have many QUICK attacks, his recovery can be a detriment to him. The one great quality he has is easily spaced attack--which, however extremely important, is not enough. Seriously, what great qualities does he have that are easily put into use--and not when opponents forget to dodge or shield consistently well ( which most losers to Marth seem to do).

I don't see how his metagame can evolve very far. His moveset does not have much variety, he doesn't have a projectile, he has a pretty bad recovery ( prohibiting more off-stage fighting than before), and has MAJOR attack recovery issues.

i mean, he's not doomed to hell like Ganondorf and maybe Falcon in terms of metagame, but he's pretty limited as far as I can see.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Go onto each of the character boards you listed.

Peach, Diddy, Zelda, and Lucario.

Then say you think Marth is inferior to them.

All the intelligent posters will just laugh at you.

No one plays Marth in NY, no one knows what he can do.

Ask Dark. Pch and Ninja Link if they think Marth sucks.

They have seen me in action. They know what a good Marth looks like.

 

[takeurlife2]

His landing lag period is terrible if you didnt fast fall...

 

[Emblem Lord]

BTW I'm not going to attempt to educate you.

What's the point?

You have made up your mind.

Which is fine.

I could care less.

You wanna know what Marth can do?

Click on my name and go to my profile. Then go to threads made by Emblem Lord.

You can educate yourself if you want.

I'm not about to waste my time though.

 

[Steel]

Mario, lucario, and peach have great projectile games... >_> Marth has PLENTY of ways to get passed aura spheres, they aren't a problem at all. Mario and peach? He can just hit those with a jab and they're gone.

He doesn't have quick attacks? Dancing blade comes out on frame 4, same with Fair. His dtilt comes out on frame 7. You are probably having problems with his 'attack recovery time' because you are just spamming smashes. That's usually what happens with people who only play marth for 8 days.

His recovery isn't as bad as you say, he can easily prevent the edge hogged by a simple dancing blade stall.

You don't know much about marth if you think he has a limited metagame. His extended much farther than a lot of other characters.

 

[Desire]

Another great thread by EL.

*cough*

Marth.. is perfect XD just look at his sexy hair/

-D smash

-recovery

other thn that, i dont think he needs anything else.

btw. about the gay *** F smash, if you know when to use F-smash,i perfer to use it. i use it like,, all the time. and that makes me tha true NOOB

 

[Sudsy86_]

Sudsy - You are just plain wrong.

Sure.

Marth is 5th in tourney results and his match-ups are excellent. Marth's metagame went longer then pretty much every other character.

First justification is invalid because it is incidentally-based. The second is something I plan on arguing about. The third might be because he's suffered the most radical change, along with the fact that people naturally have the tendency to play at least similarly to Melee Marth.

I mean do you even know Marth?

Not personally. If you have his AIM or phone number, giving me them would be great.

Honestly, I'm not shocked though. All of NY ****s on Marth so I really don't think your opinion is all that valid since every NYer I talked to doesn't know much about him really.

I'm sorry that it's just incidental that I can't afford to move out of state from them. What does it matter that I'm geographically within the same...400 mile radius as them ( I don't know the size)? What great reasoning you're currently displaying...

MK, D3, Snake and G&W are better then Marth. And only barely.

Sorry. MK is miles beyond everyone. I think Snake is vastly overrated, and prefer Marth over him. D3 and GW have more options to deal with. How often does Marth out-reach D3? GW's ratio of move speed, hit box potential ( including where, when, and how you perform it), and power is FAR superior to Marth's basic sword fighting arsenal.

That's it.

Peach, Mario, Zelda, Lucario and Diddy?

Individually, he ***** Mario and more so with Diddy. But, the game physics screw Marth over badly enough, whereas Peach isn't much different at all at maneuver with, for Peach to have an advantage there, but Peach also has a highly versatile projectile and requires almost no time to recover from any of her moves. Peach OWNS Marth in that way, so the individual matchup has changed drastically in that way: Peach gets in attacks collectively quicker than all than, maybe, MK--who IS the best character in the game by far.

But, in general, I don't see how the same factors for her personal matchup against Marth don't also apply to all other matchups. Almost all her attacks are quick, with some of them being suprisingly powerful, you can attack almost immediately after ALL of them ( except neutral B and Up B), and because of that, higher priority almost never matters with her attacking prowess advantage.

Lucario has disadvantages to Marth in mid-to-close range fighting ( except with basic A punches--with which he has fairly high priority), so Marth probably takes the nod here...65-35, but Lucario simply has very few matchups in which he has inherent struggles, whereas Marth does because of move recovery lag and lack of projectile.

From my experience, Zelda has demonstrated to have great range with her simplest attacks, has great power, and has good priority. I know over B is expected, but it's effective when your opponent is off stage because he will often be forced to dodge( causing recovery lag to occur), or he will get hit and come close to dying. Or, if he's far from the stage, though withing reach of recovery, he will likely DIE necessarily because he will very possibly have to hope he will be lucky enough to reach the edge with his up B recovery without much assurance and will probably guess incorrectly. Or, he will dodge, causing recovery lag to set it, assuring his fall. Plus, Zelda's smashes are roughly the same speed as Marth's, are they not?

Zelda, 60-40, because she is not too much better in most areas.

Collectively, Zelda is also roughly the same.

Mario is better, whereas Marth is extremely nerfed, since Melee, though Mario still loses 65-35, I think. Diddy just gets ***** badly by Marth, so there's no argument there.

Collectively, however, Mario has possibly the most versatile moveset, Diddy has mostly automatic combos when started correctly, with both having great projectiles ( Mario's fireballs are fantastic for easy spacing.)

Diddy dominates in the air, and Mario has about five quick, powerful moves ( uptilt, upsmash, fsmash, dsmash, and bair). Plus, Mario's cape is amazing for disrupting just about anything.

And what missed attack lag are you referring too?

Smash attacks?

Duh. We already said you can't spam them.

That primarily leaves you with tilts and aerials ( obviously). Let's go over that, then. Marth's tilts rock, except that their range seems to be a little nerfed. His aerials are also great, except for his piss poor dair. Marth is great aerially. On the ground how is he? Most players will simply dodge grab or dodge and attack Marth after smashes, so he's left with tilts. His dtilt rocks. His ftilt and up tilt are effective anti-aerial attacks, though, again, their range is nerfed, making their hitbox not so spectacular.

General aerial game 8.5-9/ 10.
General ground game 7/ 10 (?)

So, maybe "sucks" was wrong. i just don't think he realistically has the gameplay capacity that the majority of other characters have.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Go onto each of the character boards you listed.

Peach, Diddy, Zelda, and Lucario.

Then say you think Marth is inferior to them.

All the intelligent posters will just laugh at you.

No one plays Marth in NY, no one knows what he can do.

Ask Dark. Pch and Ninja Link if they think Marth sucks.

They have seen me in action. They know what a good Marth looks like.

Their intelligent? How? By what means? I'm used to be laughed at or mocked, but I have yet to see anyone analyze how my specific justification are not as I say they are. General comments are, of course, thrown out, but, then again, it's not too hard to say " You're wrong. Period." or " You're just stupid."

I've seen videos of you. Thoughts? You play a very smart, defensive Marth and seem to win because you stand back, make sure you space properly, and take advantages when your opponents make mistakes. The basic concept of Brawl, specifically.

 

[feardragon64]

Can you guys sort this out via pm's if you're not going to ACTUALLY make this about Marth's specific weaknesses? Instead of hijacking a, "what's marth bad at" topic into a "compare marth to the other near top "tier" characters"(or at least some of them....mario? lol)

EL, you said it yourself that he's not going to listen, and that you were going to leave him be. Keep it up.

Sudsy, EL isn't going to respond. Even if he does, sort it out in PM's. You ARE bringing it off topic. Or if you really feel the need to shout it out, create a rant thread about it. But can we please keep things organized.

Anyways, back on topic...

Might be worth adding small characters as people have said above to OP. Especially since you've already mentioned how people below marth are troublesome to handle...well shorter characters ARE below marth, even when you short hop >>

And I know you can jab, spot dodge, jump over, air dodge, ftilt, etc. projectiles, but it STILL is a weakness. Marth might be able to approach them in the end, but after that an enemy can switch to melee fighting. It forces Marth to constantly fight close, less he literally fight a battle where he might not USUALLY take damage, but it takes more effort to get rid of the projectiles and approach then it does to dish them out(and the risk/reward is completely tilted in favor of the person throwing the projectiles). Marth can only loose from projectile spam(and I mean proper projectile spam that doesn't continue once Marth is close enough). In other words, it doesn't allow Marth to regroup properly from afar. I consider that a weakness =\

 

[Sudsy86_]

Mario, lucario, and peach have great projectile games... >_> Marth has PLENTY of ways to get passed aura spheres, they aren't a problem at all. Mario and peach? He can just hit those with a jab and they're gone.

As I said about Lucario in a post after the one you responded to, Marth probably has the individual advantage over Lucario; overall gameplay capacity in general is much different because of how different most characters are from Marth.

He doesn't have quick attacks? Dancing blade comes out on frame 4, same with Fair. His dtilt comes out on frame 7. You are probably having problems with his 'attack recovery time' because you are just spamming smashes. That's usually what happens with people who only play marth for 8 days.

Lol. When I focused enough to play well, my typical Marth's offense was primarily tilt variation combos; tilt, jab combos; and tilt and/ or jab, short hop aerial combos--MUCH different from the good Marth's you'll see, right? Lol. I only smash when people are very open, are coming from the edge, or when they dodge, jump, and try to dair me or use an fair whose hitbox is huge. Everything else was your standard Marth.

His recovery isn't as bad as you say, he can easily prevent the edge hogged by a simple dancing blade stall.

You're right. But other than that, he has to be VERY close to the stage in order to recover from ANY direction. I mean, you weren't really typically supposed to fight too far off the stage anyways, because of his iffy recovery, but many characters now, because of the floatiness, CAN.

You don't know much about marth if you think he has a limited metagame. His extended much farther than a lot of other characters.

I suppose tilt variation helps this out a lot; I just never thought much of it, considering tilts have generally been Marth's most used moves, so I assumed I was just out-spacing and generally out-smarting my opponents when tilt variation combos worked.

In what ways has his metagame developed comparitively very far? This might be kind of hard to find answers to, so concrete answers won't be that necessary.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Can you guys sort this out via pm's if you're not going to ACTUALLY make this about Marth's specific weaknesses? Instead of hijacking a, "what's marth bad at" topic into a "compare marth to the other near top "tier" characters"(or at least some of them....mario? lol)

You're right. Sorry. I just found a specific instance in which I believed to have found error.

EL, you said it yourself that he's not going to listen, and that you were going to leave him be. Keep it up.

I've been considering each word he's been saying. ( he's not very bright--at least not enough to communicate the most basic ways in which I'm simply wrong in specific instances. Is that too hard to ask for? Lol.)
Just because I don't adapt my beliefs to beliefs based off " Everyone considers me great with Marth; therefore my opinions on Marth must necessarily be more well-thought out that his." or to just straight up concrete " Your just plain wrong."-type statements.

Sudsy, EL isn't going to respond. Even if he does, sort it out in PM's. You ARE bringing it off topic. Or if you really feel the need to shout it out, create a rant thread about it. But can we please keep things organized.

You're probably right. He's too much of a performance-based elitist ( much like academic elitists who toot their horns because they get better grades than everyone, and because teachers rave about them) to actually feel the need to respond.

Actually, he's just like one. Grades= smash play results; teachers/ professors= those considered to be the top players in smash. I'm pretty certain I've seen EL toot his own horn quite often in discussions.


Anyways, back on topic...

And I know you can jab, spot dodge, jump over, air dodge, ftilt, etc. projectiles, but it STILL is a weakness. Marth might be able to approach them in the end, but after that an enemy can switch to melee fighting. It forces Marth to constantly fight close, less he literally fight a battle where he might not USUALLY take damage, but it takes more effort to get rid of the projectiles and approach then it does to dish them out(and the risk/reward is completely tilted in favor of the person throwing the projectiles). Marth can only loose from projectile spam(and I mean proper projectile spam that doesn't continue once Marth is close enough). In other words, it doesn't allow Marth to regroup properly from afar. I consider that a weakness =\

Here's one on-the-spot attempt to analyze a situation. Let's say you're playing a good Lucario. K? Lucario is currently spamming you with various sized aura spheres. You shield and dodge all but, well say, one small aura sphere. Now you're in close range to Lucario--you can either dtilt, fsmash, or over b him. What's the best option coming out of a shield? Dtilt, certainly. Out of a dodge? Probably dtilt, still, but the other two aren't too bad options now either. So, you dtilt Lucario once. Assuming he reacts quickly to it and gets out of the way of the next two attempts ( it seems most players after a single dtilt hit will hit it twice more out of impulse), if you're not fast enough, and if Lucario moved away properly, he will likely short hop dair you ( Lucario main's favorite, it seems). At that point probably comes either another dair or multiple aerials and maybe an utilt if you're stupid. So, in that case, be especially aware of how controlled your rate of attack is.

Let's say Lucario spams about four this time, all of which miss you. After the fourth he will dodge or roll. Assume he will inevitably dodge. He knows dodging instantly is just ********, so he'll wait right before you're in range to dodge. Unfortunately, that gives you enough time to realize that not only is he a spamming camper, he's just an all-around slowly-reacting player; so you decide to dash attack to take advantage of his slowness. At this point he waits shortly and then dodges as your sword goes through the point at which his torso was before he dodged. He will, most likely, grab you or jab combo you. D or F smash is SORT of an option, but they kind of take a while to come out, so they're not safe choices.
If he grabs he will then attempt to combo you to hell--which if played smartly will possibly put on you 50-70 damage. If he jabs you to play it safe, you can just quickly impulsively press L, R, jump, and move the joystick in the opposite direction to avoid a combo.

If he plans on shielding, you won't be able to recognize anything as fast, because shielding takes less time for him to pull off. However, if you dash attack, he might as well do the same thing as he would do out of dodging, except that jabs might not be an option if you quickly stop yourself and jab him ( dtilt might work, too.)

So, what you should do after avoiding spams is get close and dtilt, that way he'll have to play defensively regardless. Again, just make sure you dtilt maybe twice at most.

That probably wasn't anything new, but oh well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

feardragon: Honestly, I don't fear projectile spam at all because every projectile user in the game is inferior to Marth. That sounds arrogant, but it's the truth. I don't count G&W because Chef isn't a true projectile zoning tool that allows him to control alot of space.

Most projectiles are easily contended with since a jab will take care of it while his opponent is still lagging from shooting the projectile. Wolf and Falco have their own disadvantages while shooting projectiles that Marth can take advantage of.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hey Sudsy do me a favor?

Don't insult me or talk like you know the kind of person I am.

K thnx.

 

[Sudsy86_]

Hey Sudsy do me a favor?

Don't insult me or talk like you know the kind of person I am.

K thnx.

Yes, because " It seems Emblem is such and such" implies that, right?

No keyword or anything...

 

[Emblem Lord]

*sigh

Do you really want some attention?

Hang on little one.

I'm writing a thread right now.

I'll tear you a new one momentarily.

 

[kupo15]

Maybe I personally just suck at spacing, but I do feel Marth is outranged by a bit more of the cast that he should be at times.

As a Pit player, I would love to have the range you do. I feel as though Pit gets outranged by everyone.

Another thing. Marth has a hard spike to pull off. End of story. Other characters just have it much easier here.

I would love to have your spike also. Mine is really tough to pull off maybe one of the toughest until I figure out how to set it up. I think Marth has an excellent spike. I cant really think of anyone else's spike that is as fast.

And last thing I can think of, not only does marth not have a projectile, but after a while projectile spam becomes hard to deal with. You can only chase down that falco spamming lasers for so long before you start to get hit more than you want to during the approach. Marth doesn't have some magical way to dodge them all either(some characters can just duck them >>). And as lovely as perfect shielding them all sounds, it's something you can only do for so long...

I dont play a character without a projectile so I cant say much about this. But I do know that spamming should be fairly easy to counter since there isn't much change in that strategy like EL said. Now if lets say Pit spams his arrows and flies under the stage and repeats, then that is a different story. I would never play with that player because the frustration isn't worth it.

The only spam I think (not biased on the fact of having two reflectors) is incredible hard to get around for any char is Olimar. That side b is tough.

I personally think that Marth's weakness is that he hasn't changed much from melee. He is predictable because of that and he also hasn't adapted to the knew characters with new moves like Ganon for ex. Ganon side b is different.
kupo

 

[Emblem Lord]

So I looked over all your post and basically it's just misinformation really.

You said he has lag on alot of his attacks. Not really. You said you weren't refering to his smash attacks so let's go over the moves that Marth should use as his main approach and his main pokes.

D-tilt comes out fast and has IASA frames, but you said it rocks so moving on. F-tilt comes out 1 frame slower at 8 frames and is safe on block, but not as safe as d-tilt. Still a good poke that shuts down SH approachs due to the arc. Jab is 4 frames and has IASA frames just like d-tilt.

Dancing Blade can be used as an approach, but only when well spaced. If blocked Marth should stop and if he spaced well he can avoid retaliation and roll away.

Fair, and Uair still have the same amount of end lag as in Melee which is about 7 frames. Both are safe on block since Marth can roll away before his opponent retaliates although fair seems a bit safer.

All of Marth's smashes kill really well when tipped. But here are some kill percents I did way back when the game first came out. I coped and pasted this from SRK.

Tippered F-smash around 80%
Non-tippered F-smash around 140%

Tippered U-smash around 115%
Non-Tippered U-Smash around 125%

Tippered D-smash around 105%
Non-Tippered D-smash around 125%

Tested on CPU Mario center of FD with no DI. So with DI add an extra 10 to 15%

So he is a solid killer.

As far as the character match-ups you mentioned. Marth generally beats all of them simply because he can wall them with his range and limit their options. It's a simple concept, but it goes a long way in alot of his match-ups. Generally all they can do once he sets up his zoning is roll away, but even then Marth could just wait for the roll and punish or set up his spacing again. I have done match-up analysis with other intelligent posters in a few of the boards for those characters and they agree with me.

As far as Marth's metagame goes so much has been found out. Properties on all his special moves, all the research on his Shieldbreaker, his grab release stuff, attack traps and brickwalls that he has as well as glide toss set-ups and his team metagame. There was alot of stuff to be researched and I was glad that I find out so much with him. And of course the on going work with match-ups and more things were discovered and how he can deal with projectiles. There was alot and I'm sorry if I got upset before, but I have put my heart and soul into Marth so when someone comes in here and says what you say it just bothers me.

No one on this Earth has put as much work into Marth as I have and I loved finding out all that I did and the Marth community and others did their parts as well. So don't you dare say Marth's metagame is shallow or w/e because all of us here know otherwise. Someone who mained him for 8 days isn't in any position to make judgments about him.

Marth is strong.

And the Marth community is even stronger.

Anything else you want me to address?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also..I didn't know this back then..but Marth's U-smash always deals good knockback..only the damage increases with the sweetspot.

So yeah it should say around 125% no matter what. The only reason it was 115 before is cuz I set Mario to jump so it would tip. Eh, w/e.

Maybe I will fool around with it again.

 

[Megavitamins]

Sudsy - You are just plain wrong.

Marth is 5th in tourney results and his match-ups are excellent. Marth's metagame went longer then pretty much every other character.

I mean do you even know Marth?

Honestly, I'm not shocked though. All of NY ****s on Marth so I really don't think your opinion is all that valid since every NYer I talked to doesn't know much about him really.

MK, D3, Snake and G&W are better then Marth. And only barely.

That's it.

Peach, Mario, Zelda, Lucario and Diddy?

Are you drugged?

And what missed attack lag are you referring too?

Smash attacks?

Duh. We already said you can't spam them.

Dont think all new yorkers are bad at playing Marth lol =P

 

[Cril]

i dont get it. this sudsy guy admitted to having only played marth for 8 days yet you guys think his opinions on marht are worth enough to argue against. screw him. back to marths weaknesses. i honestly don't see all the hate for marth's recovery.you just have to condition yourself to remember certain things e.g. pay attention to if you've already used your 2nd jump, after using his spike be careful and DI away from the ledge on FD to avoid being stage spiked. marth is a character where you dont practice techs, but instead various little nuances to his gameplay

 

[e__]

I'm sorry, but Sudsy seems to think Marth's metagame revolves around tilts. He needs to look into the pressure marth can put on the shield.

If someone's playing defensively, then it's possible for Marth to go around it.

Dancing blade tears up spot dodging and shields (shield poking easily with the five stab hit at the end), shieldbreaker will bring someone's shield to the size of an uncharged aura on Lucario if it doesn't break it.

Marth's metagame will not revolve around grabbing and aerial juggling like it did in melee. Marth, when spaced properly, will be able to effectively pressure anyone who doesn't roll. And we all know where roll spamming can lead us.

And flaw:

Predictable edgeguarding. With the boost of airdodging people can get around the fair, dair, smash, etc. easily, and shieldbreaker doesn't edgeguard like it did in melee.

 

[stealthsushi]

Wow, didn't know Marth's D-Throw did 4% damage. And I thought Sheik's D-Throw was bad damage wise (6%). Its good to know that there is some combo potential with the D-Throw's knockback. Sheik's D-Throw throws them pretty far for any easy follow ups XD

It appears that a lot of people are discussing Marth's weakness to projectiles. Can't you outprioritize a good number of them using his F-Air? It seems like an effective way at combating projectile spam from certain characters.

I've dipped my feet in Marth a few times lately to see how his metagame's been developing and the progress looks pretty good. Unfortunately my hands are tied up with Sheik/Zelda, Peach, and Samus at the moment to pick him up Nice thread though; I don't see many boards discussing the weaknesses of their character.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Emblem Lord, I know I've argued about this with you plenty of times but Marth's Ftilt and Utilt are not safe on block or dodge. Neither are all of his specials, including Dancing Blade. This leaves just his aerial attacks. And surely Marth's game does not just consist of his aerials.

I've tested it plenty of times and many characters can block Ftilt and then counter with a tilt of jab of their own, or at times even a running grab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I never said u-tilt was safe. Like...ever.

F-tilt is safe depending on the character. Against MK, Sonic or faster characters then no, it's not. But characters like with more average speed can't really punish a fully spaced f-tilt on block.

Punish with a jab or a tilt? No.

Running grab or dash attack is all anyone can really get.

But that's not his main poke tool.

D-tilt is...so your point is rather moot don't you think.

F-tilt is for shutting down approaches and d-tilt is for taking control.

Dancing Blade is pretty much used as a punisher, but it's slightly more spammable thanks to it's speed. Still, I did say it's effectiveness varies as a pressure tool in the OP.

 

[AdmiralComrade]

can i say.. about his sword length agasint MK is... CRAP xD i cant even get to MK with any moves! esp trying to shield roll past him and he does a D-smash that just ticks me off

yeah.. he dies from DK so fast.. ugh.. juggling.. u got that..

does suck on wifi = weakness?

does... this count? People who havent played marth yet thinks marth is OP xD stupid stupid people...

AND since perfect shielding is alot easier in brawl (well i think so) ur F-smash can get nulled pretty easily.

 

[Kitamerby]

Marth having weaknesses? I'm calling BS.

 

[AdmiralComrade]

^ do u play marth?

 

[Kitamerby]

^ do u play marth?

The day Marth has a true weakness, Falcon will be top tier. =\

 

[AdmiralComrade]

still doesnt answer my question buddy :D

 

[Punishment Divine]

The day Marth has a true weakness, Falcon will be top tier. =\

I pray this is a joke

As for what the person who mentioned MK, God yes It sucks right? Everyone keeps saying you should outrange him but what do you need like absolute positively tippy-tip hits?

Is having a bad matchup against the two best and most overused characters in the game a weakness?