Marth's weaknesses

[Emblem Lord]

So I think it's best if we as a community go over all the negative aspects of Marth's movesets and gameplay. There is no point in overlooking his weaknesses. We can't grow as Marth players if we don't confront those weaknesses and figure out ways around them. I will give a rundown of all of Marth's weaknesses that I have noticed. Feel free to post any weaknesses you think he has as well.

I will talk about ways to circumvent them as well and I encourage all of you to give your own thoughts and ideas about how Marth can deal with his weaknesses.

Here we go.


No safe kill moves

I figured we should start with the biggest weakness. Marth can't just spam kill moves like MK, Dedede, G&W and about 1/4 of the cast. If he does, he will be blocked and punished accordingly. This sucks. It sucks quite a bit. Would it have been so wrong to make Marth's U-smash safe on block? It's not extremely fast and it's his weakest smash in terms of knockback. Because of this weakness, Marth can only throw out a kill move when he wants to punish his opponent for a mistake, they happen to be in a bad situation and Marth can take advantage of it, or he is punishing their lag from an attack. So with Marth you either play smart or die.


Average recovery

Nothing to get too excited about here folks. In a game where people can glide, rocket boost, bounce off trampolines, float, and have multiple jumps Marth's recovery is lackluster. It's pretty good for someone with no special powers and abilities though. He has his neutral B which gives him a momentum boost and a huge boost when it's fully charged. And his side b lets him stall in the air. His up b is very fast with invincibility for 5 frames on start-up and is very fast as well. Still his recovery is pretty straight forward overall and the only reason he doesn't get gimped left and right is because his up b is really really good.


Weak throws

I would love to know how Snake does 12% damage by laying someone on the ground and Marth does 4% when he smashes someones head right into the concrete. It's...just not right. It's lame and stupid and I hate it. Marth has the weakest throws in the game in terms of damage and knockback. But..this works out for him. His low knockback sets up really well for his spacing. Still....4% damage? What were they thinking?


Knockback on untipped F-smash blows a$$

Seriously if you don't tip this attack it's not even worth your time. Not only is it unsafe, but it's not worth a d*mn unless you tip? Man, f*ck this move!!!! I seriously don't even use this move that much anymore unless my opponent screwed up their spacing against me and they are wide open.


No projectile

Sure Marth has the speed, range and pressure game to do well without a projectile, But would it be so bad if he was able to shoot light rays out of the Falchion? I mean Ike can do it in Path of Radiance and both the Ragnell and the Falchion are Divine swords sooooooooooooo.... >_> I know I'm grasping at straws here -_- Moving on.


Sucks on the ledge

Marth sucks at getting back from the ledge. His get up attack sucks so much, so no one is going to rely on it. All an opponent has to do is stand outside of it's range and then Marth's options become super limited. If he does normal get up he is screwed. If he rolls he is screwed. He can only really do a ledge jump, but if they know that's your best option then they will be ready for it. You can try ledge jump fair or ledge jump airdodge to circumvent this. Also ledge hop Nair is nice since jumping from the ledge keeps the angle at a good height and it's perfect for getting people off of you since it's a two hit attack that does good damage and has great knockback when tipped.


Dancing Blade loses effectiveness as shield pressure vs certain characters

If you pressure Dedede's shield with this you will get grabbed. If you pressure Lucario with it he will roll away. People with good rolls and good grab range won't fall prey to Dancing Blade as shield pressure. Which sucks major d!ck. How to deal with this? Psh. Don't use it as shield pressure vs them. It's that simple.


Average roll and dodge

In a game with super fast rolls and dodges, Marth's are mediocre which isn't good enough. Alot of characters can simply roll around and then punish with a fast attack. Marth can't do this. His gameplay requires alot more finesse and he isn't noob friendly at all.


Weak from the bottom

None of Marth's attacks are good for striking below him. Dair is very laggy so it's not a good option at all. So when being juggled Marth must try hit the ground as quickly as possible and avoid confrontation with his enemy. He has ways of doing this though. Nuetral b can push him forward and he can use side b to stall and mess with his opponent's timing. Of course fast falling needs to be used in order to hit the ground quickly as well. And Marth will need to time his airdodge correctly lest he be knocked into the air again and the process repeats itself. Marth can also attempt a counter when he is close to an opponent, but this won't work if they are directly below him.


Marth is a lightweight

Peach is heavier then Marth. Nuff' said.


Dash Grab has abysmal range

The range on this thing is a joke. You look at MK's dash grab then Marth's and you just gotta laugh. Do yourself a favor and stick to running shield grab. Dash grab ain't worth a d@mn.



Ok, so what else can everyone think of? There's probably more that I missed I'm sure. What ideas do all of you have to deal with his weaknesses.

Discuss.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

His D-air has terrible landing lag.

 

[∫unk]

Against good players... counter isn't that good. It's been buffed but the same reasons why counter wasn't good in melee applies here. I'm not sure how many frames it takes to come out but in whenever I need it it never came out fast enough, while shield/air dodge does. Only Olimar has been an easy counter character in tournies.

Marth's smashes (aka kill moves) are by far the biggest weakness. They have crappy knockback other than tipper f-smash. They're not fast on start up and have long enough ending lag to be punished. Like you said, you can only get a defensive or lucky kill if the opponent is smart and just starts camping at death percentages.

Fortunately grab release helps a little with this, but it still doesn't help kill the big guys.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ike is solid: That in of itself does suck, but it has a greater affect on his gameplay.

Marth is weak from the bottom.

I will add that now.

Junk: His other smashes have decent knockback even when untipped. U-smash has the same knockback whether you tip or not. But it's certainly better to tip his smashes then not.

 

[PK Hexagon]

He's astonishingly light. Like, lighter than Peach, Toon Link, Ness and Lucas. >_>

 

[Megavitamins]

I just wanna add that if you ever get off the ledge without your second jump, theres a pretty good chance you'll get edge hogged / gimped.

*tries to think of marth's weaknesses*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well that's part of having an average recovery.

 

[∫unk]

Ike is solid: That in of itself does suck, but it has a greater affect on his gameplay.

Marth is weak from the bottom.

I will add that now.

Junk: His other smashes have decent knockback even when untipped. U-smash has the same knockback whether you tip or not. But it's certainly better to tip his smashes then not.

u-smash is pretty weaksauce.

Does d-smash have more vertical knockback than u-smash? maybe it's because after shielding you usually go perfectly into tipper range with d-smash... It also comes out faster right?

If I'm not running I'll usually opt for d-smash instead of u-smash.

Also, for the ledge recover you can recover with shieldbreaker, but if they move forward even a tiny bit while you're jumping you're screwed because you didn't tip and they're close enough to punish the lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

U-smash kills around 10% later then tipper D-smash.

And it's too good for juggles.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Emblem Lord Why so Serious?

His Big weakness it that everybody know what he's about. Also if he does not recover on the ledge he's way too open.

 

[Emblem Lord]

After 4 months everyone knows what everyone is about.

lmao.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

After 4 months everyone knows what everyone is about.

lmao.

Add 7 more years to him.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawl ain't deep enough to need that much time.

 

[PK Hexagon]

Brawl ain't deep enough to need that much time.

I thought he meant that Marth was in Melee so its really like 7 years 4 months.

 

[JesiahTEG]

After 4 months everyone knows what everyone is about.

lmao.

I bet you weren't actually laughing your *** off though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ahhh.

I was unaware that there were still people who thought Marth was the same character as in Melee.

Well allow me to dispel any thoughts you may have about that with a comprehensive well thought out argument that will thoroughly convince you otherwise.

Melee Marth =/= Brawl Marth.

 

[ChaosKnight]

idk about Marths Weight anymore since ive seen marths live up to like 170+ in lots of matches but obviously your DI needs to be good to survive like that

i would say his weight doesnt pose that much of a problem

 

[Steel]

idk about Marths Weight anymore since ive seen marths live up to like 170+ in lots of matches but obviously your DI needs to be good to survive like that

i would say his weight doesnt pose that much of a problem

So the opponent didn't manage to kill him. 170+ is high even for heavier characters. Marth is light. I've seen Meta Knight live that high a few times, he's still very light.

 

[∫unk]

Also, b-air has too match landing lag

 

[Emblem Lord]

Junk: You serious? Who the hell uses that as an approach or a poking move? You shouldn't even be doing that. lmao.

 

[∫unk]

Nah I rarely use it at all... for that reason.

But it doesn't change the fact that it would have been incredibly useful as a cross up if it didn't suck so much.

EDIT: Point being in the game where b-airs are used more it sucks that Marth's cross up options are limited cause of his crappy b-air.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Ahhh.

I was unaware that there were still people who thought Marth was the same character as in Melee.

Well allow me to dispell any thoughts you may have about that with a comprehensive well thought out argument that will throughly convince you otherwise.

Melee Marth =/= Brawl Marth.

Brawl Marth is Melee Marth with new physics and a shorter sword + more Taunts
Let's be truthful here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The necessity for perfect spacing: while important for all characters, you(Emblem Lord) stated that that's what Marth is all about. A slight miscalculation, and you get that nasty untippered Fsmash which, as you said, sucks. The constant thought required to space properly can be difficult to maintain when playing a skilled opponent.
Just throwing that out there.

 

[Steel]

Brawl Marth is Melee Marth with new physics and a shorter sword + more Tants

Let's be truthful here.

lol?

10lol's

 

[Emblem Lord]

Better B moves too. Slighty better recovery, but still average recovery overall.

Much better U-smash and a slightly better D-smash.

Let's be truthful here.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

Better B moves too. Slighty better recovery, but still average recovery overall.

Much better U-smash and a slightly better D-smash.

Let's be truthful here.

But he still seems to play the same.

What iam trying to say is that his Cookie cutter moves(Fair,Recovery d-tilts D-smash F-smash) can still be countered with same way they were in Melee.

The change's that were made to Marth were small compared to the other characters which does not by anyway say Marth's a bad character, but Marth mains just got a little more to fight for.

Trying to keep up the Turth.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Then you are doing something wrong.

 

[∫unk]

But he still seems to play the same.

wtf have you seen dancing blade?

 

[THISISYOURPILOTSPEAKING]

He doesn't have a Falcon Punch.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Besides, what you just said is not an inherent flaw of Marth himself. It's the knowledge that the community had gained over 7 years.

But Marth sill plays differently. You CAN play him the same. But you shouldn't.

Either way your point is moot as the metagame has now stagnated and everyone knows how to fight everyone.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

wtf have you seen dancing blade?

The change's that were made to Marth were small compared to the other characters

Besides, what you just said is not an inherent flaw of Marth himself. It's the knowledge that the community had gained over 7 years.

A flaw is a flaw tho.

But Marth sill plays differently. You CAN play him the same. But you shouldn't.

The change's that were made to Marth were small compared to the other characters

Either way your point is moot as the metagame has now stagnated and everyone knows how to fight everyone.

Yea i argee, But i can counter that by saying that Marth moveset seems to well,

unable him form most of the new techs, and that if the progress(hopefully) it could leave him behind.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No one is saying you are.

You are saying that Marth is pretty much the same. When in reality he received a number of changes that affected his gameplay.

That's what we are saying.

 

[Steel]

nvm10charlol

 

[BacklashMarth]

Flaw that annoys me: pathetic dash grab range.

By the way, i agree with EL, if u play with marth the melee way, prepare for maximum level fail. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

 

[Steel]

^ That's why you just use the shield grab, its basically equivalent to the JC grab of melee.

 

[jinofcoolnes]

No one is saying you are.

You are saying that Marth is pretty much the same. When in reality he received a number of changes that affected his gameplay.

That's what we are saying.

it reason said it again to because of the 10 char rule....


also i edited my post.

 

[WildEchidna]

Troll senses, tingling.

 

[Sudsy86_]

I was a Marth main for about eight days. Unfortunately, the one thing I couldn't deal with is the time it takes to recover after NUMEROUS attacks of his. His grab is not bad ( in terms of ease to pull off), but, as the OP mentioned, it's weak.

This is mainly due to the new physics in Brawl, but his teching is slow, now--especially his short hop fairing.

However, one thing I would like to see more of is semi-short hop ( a little higher) over b attacks. It's not typically strong that way, but I find it to be EXTREMELY suprising to my opponents when planned correctly. It's the one thing I used to do that I didn't see too much of ( naivety?).

I think Marth kind of sucks, actually. He's not very powerful: his upsmash and fsmash aren't effective kill moves until high damage. Heck, even Shiek's upsmash is still powerful--that itself should say something.

He's not very hard to play against if you plan specifically against his short hop aerials and over b spam--which is spammed WAY too much. Forcing Marth's into power attacks ( usually through frustration) will give you more open attack opportunities than you'll ever need.

 

[Steel]

Short hop dancing blade isn't a good approach and is easily punished. That's one of those things you pull out maybe once or twice in a match, if used at all.

And marth certainly doesn't suck, since he is probably around top 5 best in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sudsy are you serious?

>_>

WTF@your post.