Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[Dark Sonic]

And one thing I noticed. I know that Marth has tippered and non tippered but it appears that I dont get the non tippered effect if I hit someone who is standing right next to me. I also get the same sound as a tippered Fsmash/Dair. it almost seems like a hilt shot but I know there is no such thing. Does anyone know why this is?

Thanks so much

Actually, Marth does have hilt shots. They're basically sourspots.

For instance, Marth's uptilt has a sour spot right next to him, which sends the opponent outward. Both a tipped uptilt and a normal uptilt would send the opponent above you.

And also, while comboing pay very close attention to the vertical position of your opponent (how far are they from the ground, and where are they in relation to you). Many times during combos you will have to alternate between tipped attacks and un tipped attacks, and even between full hops, shorthops, and shffls. For instance, lets say you are comboing...Shiek. Now, if Shiek is at ground level at medium percentages you'd want to start the combo with SHFFl'd tipped fair. Afterwards she'd likely pop up quite a bit, and be above you position wise. You don't want her to go any higher (unless there are platforms to allow you to chase her) so you should follow up by shorthopping an untipped fair (the fair will hit above you and knock her foward). Now from this position She'll be in front of you and closer to the ground, so you'd want to hit with a tipped fair on the way down from your short hop. Now she'd go even higher than before, so you'd need to run and full hop to reach her and hit her with an untipped aerial. At this point, you should try to bring your combo to an end close to the ground, so you follow up with another untipped fair to bring you closer to the edge and the ground. You land on the ground first and Shiek is positioned in front of you of a f-smash/f-tilt, ect.

Of course, this is just a hypothetical scenerio, and does not take into account the presence of platforms, the oppponent's DI, ect. Basically, learning to combo effectively with Marth will take a long time, and before you even begin trying to combo with Marth, you must get a firm grasp on spacing with him. He's unique in that his combo potential is basically dictated by your spacing and you're ability to discern when sweetspot are and are not appropriate.

*watches from the darkness as nostalgia grips my heart, then disappears into the night.

Hi Emblem Lord!! Long time no see. It's too bad that I don't visit the brawl Marth boards that often (he just doesn't fit me anymore), but feel free to stop here anytime.

 

[kupo15]

Ha, I knew there was something weird with the hilt shots. Thank you for your help. Something I need to keep in mind is that most of his attacks are in great arcs which means I dont have to be directly in front or below them to hit them. This will take some time.

Thank you for posting!
^_^

 

[otg]

*watches from the darkness as nostalgia grips my heart, then disappears into the night.

Come back to the Good side EL, Brawl has taken away enough of this community.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait... Marth's utilt, that one hit that sends them out crazy far? I wouldn't really call that a sourspot, more like a supersweetspot =P

As far as tipped or untipped goes, if in doubt, tip it. It'll make you harder to shield grab and give you a little more space to work with, and also because most of the time it won't matter that your opponent is above you, as Marth has crazy good upward priority. Generally speaking though, you'll want to keep them sort of diagonally in front of you, where you can hit them with the majority of your moves, most notably dair, fsmash and fair.

And yeah, the arcs are good. Work the arcs. Hitting people that're descending on you with a tippered fsmash is pretty awesome.

And yeah, come back Emblem Lord. We miss you.

 

[IrArby]

EL this game isn't old enough and too many people are still playing it so you don't have to be nostalgic. Come back. Marth is much loved and respected here as are you.

Sidenote: Is it just me or does M2K seem to not do a lot of Ken Combos?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Eh, Ken combos aren't needed most of the time, as a simply edgegaurd will do and also be less risky. Yes they are cool, but they are also a bit situational.

Wait... Marth's utilt, that one hit that sends them out crazy far? I wouldn't really call that a sourspot, more like a supersweetspot =P

Well, I still call them sourspots because in general they aren't as good (uptilt being the only exception). You'll have sourspots on all of Marth's ground moves (only A moves. Upsmash, Downsmash, and Up tilt are most noticable). He's got some on most of his aerials too (though I've never sourspotted a dair before).

 

[kupo15]

yea those sourspots are bad. Not so much the Nair but the Uair cause it stops the combos.
Why isnt EL's frame data thread not linked in the stickies? Its helpful to see which moves are IASA. The more I play Melee with Marth the worse Brawl becomes. Why does it have to be so popular split the community? Pit is why I stay with brawl but enough of that....

 

[IrArby]

^^Eh, Ken combos aren't needed most of the time, as a simply edgegaurd will do and also be less risky. Yes they are cool, but they are also a bit situational.

Yea I agree with you. Alot of times I find myself going for and not succeeding at a Ken Combo when a simple SHDF to Fsmash suffices just fine.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

You can look up SuperDoodleMan's frame data if you want... frame data. It's on his Angelfire site.

It's kinda unnecessarily difficult to space someone for a Ken Combo, and while it's cool, a lot of the time, I prefer a fair to reverse Dolphin Slash. It looks even cooler than the Ken Combo and sets up for edgeguarding.

 

[Proverbs]

^Bah, I hate it when people say things set up for edgeguarding as why they're good. If you spike, you don't need to set up for edgeguarding--they're already KO'd. Anyway, that's just my opinion.

On to my question, though: Is there ever a time to use Marth's upsmash? I know it's almost taboo among competitive players and for a long time I considered it Marth's worst move. And while it may still be, are there any uses for it? I'd like to see if it can be put to any good use at all. I've used it once to combo accidentally and it didn't end up entirely badly. Just throwing thoughts out there. If there's a move we don't use, I think there comes a time to re-evaluate the move and see if it we still can't do anything with it.

Just a thought.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Well yeah, I see your point, but if you can't get the spike, you might as well go with the next best thing. A lot of people don't realize that they can use the reverse Dolphin Slash in lieu of the Ken Combo.

I use the usmash when I'm messing around out of a dash dance. It's pretty unexpected and quite powerful if you hit it right.

Oh, and at higher percentages when you're having trouble getting the kill 'cause you can't combo anymore, you can shffl a uair (softspot) into a usmash.

But there're usually better options.

 

[IrArby]

If I interpreted the meaning of it correctly, I've seen Cactuar use Usmash out of Dashdance or something that would involve someone techrolling into him since it has a mini-suction affect on both sides of him. I thought it was a mistaken uptilt at first but now I'm pretty sure it was intentional.

Cactuar if you see this (I have a feeling you might) would you please explain why/how you set up for an Usmash in these situations?

 

[Proverbs]

Ah, thanks. And I see your point about the reverse Dolphin Slash and will totally use that if I can't get the spike. It's just that if I can, I'd rather go for the spike.

By the way, something interesting that happened today in a sort of related topic was that I pulled off either a normal spike or Ken Combo today against a Kirby. He was at a lower percent and so he wasn't totally KO'd by it, so I fell down to where he was and used Dolphin Slash to hit him underneath Battlefield for him to get stage spiked.

Talk about putting the two techniques together XD

 

[Cactuar]

If I interpreted the meaning of it correctly, I've seen Cactuar use Usmash out of Dashdance or something that would involve someone techrolling into him since it has a mini-suction affect on both sides of him. I thought it was a mistaken uptilt at first but now I'm pretty sure it was intentional.

Cactuar if you see this (I have a feeling you might) would you please explain why/how you set up for an Usmash in these situations?

I don't think people should really imitate me... my style is extremely flawed. It really just works because I have an immense amount of experience in hitting people with stupid things.

That being said, I use upsmash to follow certain techs because people rarely tech the extremely weak hit, so they really just get barely lifted off the ground. Very easy to follow. *shrug*

 

[kupo15]

I have a question.

Bthrow vs Dthrow

They both put them behind you but why would you use one over the other? Which one is used more often and why?

 

[ArcNatural]

Dthrow is usually always better. It's easier to techchase and easier to edgeguard with. Normally the only time bthrow is useful is when your opponent is at a high % (like in the 130+ range). Then bthrow seems to have enough stun where if they DI wrong you can fsmash or ftilt them from it. But until then bthrow is always better as it either puts them off the stage and down or on the ground to force them to tech.

 

[QuickSi1ver]

Is the shffl an important AT for marth? I cant do the short hop and am kind of getting frustrated with it, and was wondering what the opinions were of experiences smashers. Will it improve my game enough to be worth learning?

 

[kupo15]

Oh ok. I never knew which one I saw during the vids. I can see how Bthrow is better higher up since it throws them higher.


shffl is an important AT to learn to be good at the game period One way to go about short hopping is using the side of your thumb on the X. Just knick the bottom corner.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

Oh ok. I never knew which one I saw during the vids. I can see how Bthrow is better higher up since it throws them higher.


shffl is an important AT to learn to be good at the game period One way to go about short hopping is using the side of your thumb on the X. Just knick the bottom corner.

Bthrow done fast without DI sets up some characters for Fsmash (backwards, of course). Dthrow is useful in setting up gimps for fox/falco particularly so you can jab their >B to Dair.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

Is the shffl an important AT for marth? I cant do the short hop and am kind of getting frustrated with it, and was wondering what the opinions were of experiences smashers. Will it improve my game enough to be worth learning?

If you wanna seriously learn marth, then hell yeah you gotta learn that and more.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

I have a question actually.. is it safer to try the first hit of Dancing Blade to Utilt while someone is grounded, or already in the air?

I know this is useful vs floaty characters, but it just seems like an odd setup to find an opportunity depending on character weight/%.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm pretty sure it works regardless, but be careful with the dancing blade if they're on the ground, cuz it's easily cc'd

 

[3747373796432]

Does the forward variation of the 4th hit on Marth's SideB combo do more knockback than a forward smash if you hit with the tip? I messed around with it on Yoshi's Story on someone standing above me on a platform and it seemed like I could combo into it with forward b, up, up, forward. The platforms seem to be at the perfect height to tipper with the forward 4 hit.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^DI normally stops that combo from working, and no it does not have more knockback than a forward smash.

 

[QuickSi1ver]

How much does the 4th hit with a tipper do? I'm curious.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

Does the forward variation of the 4th hit on Marth's SideB combo do more knockback than a forward smash if you hit with the tip? I messed around with it on Yoshi's Story on someone standing above me on a platform and it seemed like I could combo into it with forward b, up, up, forward. The platforms seem to be at the perfect height to tipper with the forward 4 hit.

The best variation that I use is >, ^ (starts to pick them up higher), ^, stall a little and tipper ^ It reaches pretty nicely.

I use it sparingly, but when I do, that last hit sends them far and usually connects on most characters at low percents, and kills when tech chased on yoshi's pretty well when facing the ledge.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the Dancing Blade has a tipper.

 

[darkspatan117]

yes it has a tipper

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Goddammit. I KNEW someone was going to do that. I mean PROVE it to me.

let me give all the marth players or anyone who wants to use marth some special and important advice on marths Foward B since im such a nice guy.

1st of all you can use it against your Foe at any %, it works as a stun only of they do not crouch cancel.

However, 2ndly if they do crouch cancel you have to work on your timing with it's speed, once you get the 3rd slash out, it's as strong as a foward tilt but does not have to hit your opponent at the tip to be strong.

3rdly, on the 2nd foward tilt always do a nuetral B, never do or hold up, because if you do then you cannot link it into the 3rd hit

4th, for the 3rd hit, if you want to combo hold up and up again or, just up then pause and air jump F-air

furthermore, if you want to send them flying if they are at high percents use the foward or nuetral B,

use down if you notice the person is crouch canceling or if they are sheilding, because this is a very powerful move which gives knock back therefore if you are at the right space you can avoid their sheild grab

now for the 4th hit, it's very simple....

if they are above, use Up B/A

if they are where you cannot reach then use foward or nuetral B/A

and if they are sheilding or on the ground/crouch canceling ur best bet is down since it is numerous attacks but you can still get sheild grabbed, however sometimes they don't notice how many attacks marth does for the final down so it throws them off...

sword dancing on air-

ehhhh? another discussion

Don't just say "durrr, it has a tip". That doesn't confirm ANYTHING for me.

 

[kupo15]

I know the Ken Combo isnt always necessary but nevertheless its flashy and it feels good to do it. Is there a Thread dedicated to percentages where the Full Ken Combo works against the main characters? Im in the process of doing that with Fox first but I thought Id ask since I dont have much experience with the Ken Combo and if there was one then there is no point in me testing out percents.
thanks!

 

[KosukeKGA]

Kupo, just get them in the air and swat away.

I know...Not very helpful. I suck. -.-

If you hit with the tip of a Fair, they'll go in an upward direction to setup a Ken Combo.
---
What I'm trying to say is...You just have to get the feel for it. :/

 

[ArcNatural]

The percentages are all rough. Basically from low to mid percents you will want to tip to double jump fair. Afterwards, at higher percentages you won't want to tip. There are also other situations where you tip with the top hit box, or middle, or bottom. All of which will pop them at different heights. Same with not tipping.

Since the fair hits at a range something like 12 o'clock to 6 you have a lot of variation. It should also be obvious that fast fallers percentages for tipping go into higher percentages than floaties. I'm also pretty sure that if you don't tip (or no longer in the percentage range that tipping will allow a ken combo) that the non-tipped fair to dair can always be DI'd out of. So you also have to hope for bad DI.

 

[Dark Sonic]

The percentages are all rough. Basically from low to mid percents you will want to tip to double jump fair. Afterwards, at higher percentages you won't want to tip. There are also other situations where you tip with the top hit box, or middle, or bottom. All of which will pop them at different heights. Same with not tipping.

Since the fair hits at a range something like 12 o'clock to 6 you have a lot of variation. It should also be obvious that fast fallers percentages for tipping go into higher percentages than floaties. I'm also pretty sure that if you don't tip (or no longer in the percentage range that tipping will allow a ken combo) that the non-tipped fair to dair can always be DI'd out of. So you also have to hope for bad DI.

100% true.

 

[Meanpplsuck]

When you double fair within 1 shorthop, do u have to l cancel the second fair? because it seems to me that without l canceling the second one there is still little to no lag time

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yes you do, otherwise you'll have twice as much lag.

 

[GodheadsLamentX]

When you double fair within 1 shorthop, do u have to l cancel the second fair? because it seems to me that without l canceling the second one there is still little to no lag time

Yes, it makes all the difference. It's important in following up, dashing away from shield grabs, etc.

 

[ArcNatural]

It may look like there is no lag time because you never actually see the fair come all the way out. But your still taking the lag of the fair when you land. So yes l-cancel is needed. People need to post questions more often. Since I never use Brawl boards after the brawl vs melee balance thread Yuna made. Melee boards are the only way I'll ever hit 1K posts D:

 

[IrArby]

Yuna's thread was awesome. Alot of important stuff was discussed even if it wasn't all relative to the original topic and noobs kept interupting. Same here though I've been on the Brawl boards maybe 2times since that thread was closed.

 

[Proverbs]

Just throwing a question out there: What reliable ways are there to kill Samus? It's kind of difficult considering she's heavy, floaty, and has infinite recovery x_x;; Is it all a matter of percentage and tips for her, or can Marth gimp her just as reliably as other characters?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Samus' recovery is fairly predictable, so it's open to gimps, but you can also combo her into Ken combos. Watch a few matches of Ken vs. HugS, they're a pretty good summation.