Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[Buh]

I'm pretty new to the scene.

I made this page on smashwiki:

http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Marth_Match-Ups

I've only been playing since August of 2007, so I haven't got a clue what to write for most of these match-ups. My friend is pretty arrogant and says he can play every character, but he can't really, so my experience in most match-ups is so limited that I don't want to put something down that happens to be incorrect.

Anyway, would anyone skilled or knowledgeable please edit the page?

I'll have some videos of my Marth vs. Hylian's Fox up later in order to have my Marth critiqued, but until then, I do have a few questions:

How does the chain grab on FD work against Fox and Falco specifically? Could someone post all of the variations that I do depending on the respective DI of Fox and Falco?

Say I mess up a combo that should kill Fox, and he happens to be at very high damage. What should I do? And what should I do if I manage to grab him?

When Fox upthrows you he almost always sets up for an uair (or occassionally bair). Should I DI the upthrow? Is there a way to consistently smash DI the first hit of the uair such that I avoid the second one, or do I need to "dash dance in the air" and hope it works?

How should Marth handle Kirby? In my 3 out of 5 with Hylian, I counter-picked FD and he picked Kirby. Now I know that Marth really ***** Kirby, but I was way too scared to play the match-up. So I picked Zelda and won. But I'd like to be able to win the match-up with Marth, and not have to resort to my garbage character for it.

How should Marth handle Pikachu? I just... suck against the little guy. >_>

Finally, there are some abnormal approaches I'm not very good at. From watching videos of Ken, I've learned about "false shffls" where you simply short-hop fast fall, and you can throw in shffl'd fairs occasionally to make your opponent think you'll do an aerial, then land a grab. I also learned dash dancing, and can pivot/DA dash relatively well. But I've only just learned about full-hop bair to fast-fall l-canceled fair. When should I use this appproach?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'll answer to the best of my ability.

1) The CG on Fox and Falco eh? There are lsight differences in how you grab combo them becuase of their wieght and their falling speed, since it differs slightly. I'll just give you a general guideline. You should be able to CG until about the early 30%'s. Then toss in an u-tilt and then re-grab. Then another u-tilt. Honestly their DI really can't stop you from comboing and it's very easy to follow. You won't really have any trouble continuing the combo. After the re-grab do another u-throw. If they go straight up then you can go for another u-tilt. If they DI away from you then you can dash very quickly in thier direction for a shuffled uair or a dash attack. If it tips then you can do a uair to f-smash. Also you could opt to do fairs instead of uairs when they DI away. It's situational. The most standard combo is CG to u-tilts to f-smash. But you can get very flashy and complicated if you want. To be honest there are many variations and it's up to you to experiment and do what works best in your situation. I'm not about to list 20 different combos or something that are essentially the same other then 1 or 2 moves. The combo finishers are going to be nair, f-smash, shield breaker, dair and reverse dolphin slash.

2) If you know you can't nail a definite kill move, then go for the nair or the shield breaker. Good knockback and sets up for edgeguarding when you knock them off the stage. If you grab fox just u-throw to nair if his percentage is to high for a longer grab combo.

3) When Fox u-throws you, DI behind him. Smash DIing the uair is pretty easy. As soon as you here that first smack sound from the uair slam the analog to the opposite direction that you wereing DIing originally.

4) Marth handles Kirby with no effort. F-throw or b-throw to f-smash. Don't JC your grabs since he can duck the JC grab. Fair combos own him, so abuse that when the opportunity presents itself. Honestly Kirby sucks and Marth shouldn't have trouble unless the Kirby player is leagues ahead of the Marth. Running out and swatting Kirby when he off the stage may not help as much since he has multiple jumps, but that's ok since d-tilt and f-smashing the final cutter up b works just fine. Marth just runs all over Kirby.

5) Marth owns Pikachu as well. You can u-throw to combo at low percents. Or f-throw/b-throw to f-smash if they mess up thier DI. Edgehog him when recovering to force him onto the stage and then knock him back off. Swipe at thundershock with a jab to cancel it out. Fair combos work wonders in this match up as well. Just keep your spacing and keep him out and you should do fine. What exactly are you having trouble with in this match-up? Maybe I can help you out a little bit more if you give me some specifics.

6) I made an approach thread. Those are the most reliable approaches that Marth has that I listed.
Anything else is riskier and only used to switch things up or remain unpredictable. Here is the link to my approach thread. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=102436

 

[Buh]

About the chain grab, what do I do when the Fox falls down and shines? Should I pivot a grab?

And against Pikachu, I think I'm just approaching incorrectly. But now that I know about the grab combos, thanks. Also, if dash grab can get Kirby, I'm going to do a lot better against Kirby and Puff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Pivot grab when you hit the late 20%'s to avoid being shined out of your CG.

Marth actually claws his hand downwards for his regular dash grab, which is why no one in the game can crouch his dash grab. But it's laggier so make sure you nail those grabs. You will be punished if you miss or they dodge.

 

[Buh]

Wow, thanks a lot!

When my videos are uploaded, should I just post them here?

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you want anyone to look at them, then just make your own thread and post them.

If you want me to look at them then post them here. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=132943

 

[marthanoob]

kips answered one of my questions, but no one answered any of the others as following.

When should I time the l-cancel for marth for each of his aerial attacks especially his fair? Is there a good way to practice it in training mode?

 

[Emblem Lord]

You hit L or R when Marth's feet touch the ground. There is no magic method. Just go into practice mode and geta feel for it.

Not much more to it then that.

 

[StickyChopstix]

Can anyone tell me a good way to avoid link's up-b edge guarding move? It KO's me every time was wondering if there's a way around it. When I try to sweetspot I think the sword hits himfrom under and I get hit newaiz =P

 

[ArcNatural]

Can anyone tell me a good way to avoid link's up-b edge guarding move? It KO's me every time was wondering if there's a way around it. When I try to sweetspot I think the sword hits himfrom under and I get hit newaiz =P

No your just not sweetspotting. You could also try upBing a little bit further away from the stage if your not good at sweetspotting. But my friends try this all the time when they play Link and if you sweetspot I don't think you can get hit on most stages.

 

[StickyChopstix]

well when I'm on the edge and getting up what options do I have? Usually I roll past him but I do that a lot and now he can predict it. Sometimes I try to edgehop and pull off a counter but it leaves me open if he doesn't do anything xD

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

well when I'm on the edge and getting up what options do I have? Usually I roll past him but I do that a lot and now he can predict it. Sometimes I try to edgehop and pull off a counter but it leaves me open if he doesn't do anything xD

Roll
Get up
Get up attack
Ledgehop aerial
-Nair
-Fair
-Uair
-Bair
Ledgehop on- you can do any move once you're above the stage as well
ledgedash
ledgehop neutral b regrab (lol, don't actually do this.)
ledgehop fair regrab

Did I miss something?

 

[JesiahTEG]

Pivot grab when you hit the late 20%'s to avoid being shined out of your CG.

Marth actually claws his hand downwards for his regular dash grab, which is why no one in the game can crouch his dash grab. But it's laggier so make sure you nail those grabs. You will be punished if you miss or they dodge.

I thought you had to pivot grab at 20%?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Maybe.

But I have never had too.

 

[BC AL]

can someone give me tips on fightin luigi? i actually never fought one yet but when teh time comes, it ll prove useful, his aerials seem uber fast...so ya, n e tips?

 

[knightpraetor]

I thought you had to pivot grab at 20%?

on falco you don't have to pivot grab until 28% ..on fox it should be 20 and on...maybe EL is playing falco's? or the other possibility is his opponents are slight DIing and making it easier on him...shrugs..don't over think it..judge based on where they go

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm just giving overall advice.

Don't get too caught up in the specifics.

 

[Shadowex3]

Is there any way to get out of chaingrabs from another marth or a shiek or am I just screwed?

 

[Metaknight15470]

im not sure... ive never got out of a grab anyways..... but i have a question.. u unlock marth by using the 14 starters in classic rite? cuz i got him only using 12

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shadowex3: Yes, but with Shiek she cna always catch oyu with somehting even if it isn't a grab.

Marth can't CG Marth. He can re-grab once or twice. I hardly think this is a CG.

 

[ArcNatural]

Is there any way to get out of chaingrabs from another marth or a shiek or am I just screwed?

You can during low percentages against Sheik DI up and slightly away from Sheik (so you floating right behind his head) and if they try to regrab you can jump out. Like EL said though, Sheik can still link tilts or some sort of combo to 40% anyway if they know what they are doing. I have had good success smash DIing tilts though as you should plainly see those coming out of grabs.

For Marth vs Marth. He can only definitely get 1 CG from 0-6% or something really low. After that you can either DI Away or Down. Most DI away to avoid both the CG and the Fsmash, you will have to spotdodge or maybe roll to avoid getting CG'd if you DI down.

 

[IrArby]

I know these questions always sound stupid but, how important is it for me to learn pivoting at this point. To give you an idea where I'm at, I've mastered L-canceling just about all my aerials including double fairs, wdshing, wvlanding, dshdncing, the basics and I've got down alot of the quasi-advanced edgeguards (cept ****ing ledgehopped spikes). I even get occasional ken combos. I'd guess that I'm at least up to local tournament level especially around here (Lynchburg Va.)

I'm pretty sure that this is one of the next things I need to work on but it's alot easier to focus on learning new techniques when the marthboards tell me so. Anyway, I know my description is painfully vague but any other suggestions for techniques is appreciated.

 

[Teczer0]

Pivoting is pretty helpful although its fairly difficult to master.

Its not as important as like L-canceling but it does help a lot for say CG spacies.

I don't tend to use it that often outside of CGing I do tend to use it a lot on inexperienced players who try to smash me off the edge while I ledge stall. I tend to Waveland onto the stage and pivot grab them and throw them off the stage.

 

[Habanero Pepper]

Can somebody direct me to a good matchup guide. I'm just trying to get the jist of how to handle each individual character and can't find one to assist.

Thanks ahead of time.

 

[BC AL]

can som1 tell me what to do against luigis? i never versed one before but knowing wouldnt be too harmful
Also, with Sheik, i have soo much troubles with her needles
at teh beginning of battles, marths are teh ones supposed to approach since she ll just charge up her needles and shoot them at you. But then once u dodge/jump/roll close enough to her, she ll needle cancel her attacks and then grab or fair me...what should i do? shielding wont do too good since her needles have enough shield stun...

 

[/~Dogma~\]

what are good mindgames with marth i no the usaul DD and wavedash but like what would work good

i try empty short hops i triangle jump
i SH fair DI back waveland forward
ummm SHFFl wavedash
is there more bc im not satisfied with my mindgames well probly b/c i only verse falco and his blaster and sheik and her needles do u have anything else?

thxs in advanced

 

[Irow]

Mindgames? That's all about predicting your opponent. You can go a couple stocks where your opponent thinks he's got your game down, then throw in something to mix him up. With Marth, you should put all your cards on the table at once, it's about control. You have to be calm and analytical. The mindgame could be as simple as running then stopping right in front of your opponent and tilting him.

Against Luigi, the fair pretty much stops him. Your down tilt is one of the safest ways to stop him from wavedashing and smashing you. Just keep Luigi at tips range, and he can't move fast enough to get in if your careful.

Against Sheik, just try to get a quick grab in. You can try to full hop, DI back and Fair that hoe. You don't always have to be full frontal when facing a Sheik. It's more about controlling where Sheik is in relation to your sword.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

well thxs i did great today with my new mindgames i sat there and did nothing for like 4 secs then i went into like 3 shdf into a reverse dolphin

 

[wexs883198215]

Any advice on dealing with Falco's f-smash? My friend constantly spams it, and when i try to fsmash or fair back, i usually get killed

thanks

 

[BC AL]

Against Luigi, the fair pretty much stops him. Your down tilt is one of the safest ways to stop him from wavedashing and smashing you. Just keep Luigi at tips range, and he can't move fast enough to get in if your careful.

Against Sheik, just try to get a quick grab in. You can try to full hop, DI back and Fair that hoe. You don't always have to be full frontal when facing a Sheik. It's more about controlling where Sheik is in relation to your sword.

Irow, thanks bout teh tip bout luigi im pretty sure it ll help! XD
So when i am in sword range, if she tries to needle cancel me, i full hop DI away and put mah fair into sweetspot range?
and once i DO get a grab off, u fthrow, fthrow and then uthrow utilts, right? Each time i try that though, her weird weight cant get combo'd effectively by my utilts. She somehow hits teh non - tipper range of teh utilt and flies off at a weird angle towards the ground at sharp degree where i cant combo her any more...what do i do?

 

[LNKD]

first I like to thank teczero, now I am into it yey I got better vs a peach , now let get to work vs a shiek chain grab up or I just do a stand ground up+A !?

 

[Teczer0]

first I like to thank teczero, now I am into it yey I got better vs a peach , now let get to work vs a shiek chain grab up or I just do a stand ground up+A !?

No probs lol

And what do you mean? If your asking about what to do after you throw a sheik then try this.

At around 0 - like really low percent like 6 i guess.....

F-throw as long as they don't DI away from you you can run up to them and just grab them again.

Once they are above that percent up-throw them at low percents its possible to up-tilt them multiple times if they mess up their DI or you can just chase them because sheik's aerials aren't that great for people under her.

At Higher percents i usually use D-throw and tech chase with D-tilts or f-smash or grabs.

You can also use the b-throw at higher percents, the trajectory of the throw sends sheik up-wards and you could possibly b-air them.

>_>

 

[Irow]

Remember that the utilt juggle won't work every time. If you know your opponent is going to expect a front throw, sometimes throw in a down throw - they might mess up their DI and you can get a quick F-smash. But other than that, up throw is normally the throw to go with. at low-mid percents. Uptilts, U-air, Fair, Bair; you have a lot of moves to do against a Sheik above you depending on their DI. It's okay if you only get one move off. Just try your best to keep that Sheik on the defensive. Out grab her. The grabs are important because if you're grabbing her, she can't grab you.

Sheiks grabs are hella gay. Keep that in mind.

I find that a SHFFL'd Fair is safer than a SHDF against Sheik. But I guess that's just my preference.

 

[BC AL]

ooh ic then thanks, ye i totally forgot teh whole concept of mindgames hahaha
so keep her on teh defense that would mean i would have to have like PERFECT spaing..0_o kk i can try and do that XD
and grabs are teh ways to go too? so every uthrow at high percents usually have fair fair fsmash?
yaa SHFFL fair is better since i get shield grabbed all teh time
and something off topic, i cant deal with fox's speed too well, its too freakin fast, his nairs and dairs always catch me when im trying to approach... what should i do?

 

[Irow]

The norm against fighting a Fox is to Do a retreating Fair when he tries to ram you. The chaingrab against Fox is essential as well. Never try to charge straight up into a Fox if he is too, his moves can break through most of your options.

If he likes to laser and run a lot, it's okay to take some damage. If you're good at reading your opponent, you can get in a surprise dash attack. That can lead to a chaingrab or TGM combo depending on their DI.

Depending on his style, you'll play a defensive, retreat Fair-heavy Marth; or you're going to be playing the out-grab game and keeping the Fox from running.

Be wary of Fox's grab, you will get hit with an upair. His waveshine also basically leads into a grab every time.

Personally, I find Marth vs. Fox a grab game. All the gayest combos on both sides come from the grab.

You cannot be confused by a fast Fox. You have to be able to follow his movements, or you will get eaten alive.

 

[TheHairyLee]

I don't know if this has been asked before, what strategy would you consider using against an opponent that uses Samus? thanks

 

[BC AL]

The norm against fighting a Fox is to Do a retreating Fair when he tries to ram you. The chaingrab against Fox is essential as well. Never try to charge straight up into a Fox if he is too, his moves can break through most of your options.

If he likes to laser and run a lot, it's okay to take some damage. If you're good at reading your opponent, you can get in a surprise dash attack. That can lead to a chaingrab or TGM combo depending on their DI.

Depending on his style, you'll play a defensive, retreat Fair-heavy Marth; or you're going to be playing the out-grab game and keeping the Fox from running.

Be wary of Fox's grab, you will get hit with an upair. His waveshine also basically leads into a grab every time.

Personally, I find Marth vs. Fox a grab game. All the gayest combos on both sides come from the grab.

You cannot be confused by a fast Fox. You have to be able to follow his movements, or you will get eaten alive.

ooh so u play a more defensive and a more grabbing game against fox then?
And one last thing b4 i fight that crazy sheik again, why dont pros use teh kizzu attack of Fair Uair combos in one short hop?

 

[ArcNatural]

ooh so u play a more defensive and a more grabbing game against fox then?
And one last thing b4 i fight that crazy sheik again, why dont pros use teh kizzu attack of Fair Uair combos in one short hop?

Normally if you have the option upair to follow up, that means you missed your spacing, or your opponent missed their DI. Your most plausible time to do this would probably be from a badly DI'd fthrow on floaties, which generally is followed by either a fsmash or a fair combo.

Simply put, as a Marth player you generally do not want to be that close to your opponent unless your trying to stay under them. Need to remember that most of Kizzu's combos were against his brother and tons of matches between them. Increasing the odds that someone will slip up. If you watch tournament matches most pro players are pretty focused and usually won't make those mistakes.

 

[LNKD]

No probs lol

And what do you mean? If your asking about what to do after you throw a sheik then try this.

At around 0 - like really low percent like 6 i guess.....

F-throw as long as they don't DI away from you you can run up to them and just grab them again.

Once they are above that percent up-throw them at low percents its possible to up-tilt them multiple times if they mess up their DI or you can just chase them because sheik's aerials aren't that great for people under her.

At Higher percents i usually use D-throw and tech chase with D-tilts or f-smash or grabs.

You can also use the b-throw at higher percents, the trajectory of the throw sends sheik up-wards and you could possibly b-air them.

>_>

okay I will try it but right now I think I got my ass wook by HDL marth

 

[Juggleguy]

How exactly do you do the Isai platform drop, where you can drop down really quickly after SHFFLing an aerial onto a platform? It looks really, really useful.