Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[JayBee]

i thought it was spelled johns. or is that just because you decided to type spanish randomly.

Theory: Knockback Team Combo

have you ever intentionally attacked your teamateto let them reuse thier recovery? well, this is an extention of that situation. A Knockback Combo in teams is a setup/combo in which one team member purposely inflicts damage on his teamate during a combo or setup so that he/she can continue to follow up and attack the opponent. example:

ZSS does he Down Smash on an opponent at high percents. ( lets assume she is above 50% right now) Metaknight uses FSmash, sending both the opponent and ZSS towards the blast line. ZSS DI's and bairs the opponent as they appoach the blast line, resulting in a KO.

I think that there is some potential in these kinds of setups, and not just in the air. maybe by attacking the teamaate his special move will cancel and allow him to follow up with another special? who knows. the possibilties are hindered only by your imagination at this point.

How can sonic take advantage of this? well, Sonic is a great edgegaurder, but what if he is sent towards the blast line on purpose by his teamate to edgegaurd his opponent without using his jump first? maybe he'll get a bair in, or a HA, or even a Dair spike if he's brave, and near the blast line that would be a KO. then if his partner was someone like metaknight, they both can now assist in a crazy edgegaurding attempt, with Meta inflicting damage on sonic so he can use Up B multiple times and stay airborne.

Discuss, and if you can, throw up ideas and maybe show some vids of you trying to pull off some nice Knockback setups.

 

[da K.I.D.]

this could work for characters with low damage/knockback back throws, but sonic can get offstage just fine on his own, and unless im about to die, i wouldnt want my teammate to hit me cause that can:

1. Kill me inadvertantly
2. set the opponent up to kill me.
3. make it easier for the opponent to kill me later because of the higher damage that I am at.

p.s. when are sonic and MK ever on the same team?

 

[JayBee]

that is true. but then both sonic and mk can go to gether, and when sonic is in need of another upb mk can hit him with a tornado , in which sonic can di out and spring again, while the spring hits MK and give him back his tornado/ shuttle loop/ gay. besides think of some stuff.

what? sonic/MK team never happens?

 

[da K.I.D.]

honestly, ive never ever seen it, not even in friendlies

but i heard malcom teamed with DMBrandon once, but than again malcolm usually goes wario in doubles

 

[JayBee]

okay, ill take your word for it. way to shut down my dreams, kid. lol

 

[MalcolmM]

Kojin inflicting damage to teammate on purpose is usually a mistake. Sure it has lead to some lol"combo"moments, but that doesnt mean its a legit strategy. Instead of ur theory what is ZSS does Dsmash and MK just charges his SPACED Fsmash and only hits the opponent. That sounds alot more effective to me. then having ZSS way off stage attempting a bair that someone can airdodge past and leaving herself susceptible to being gimped off the stage.

Oh and ive done sonic meta tons and tons of times. It works just fine but why would u play sonic when u have better options?

 

[JayBee]

yeah. let's move on. :embarrass

 

[Browny]

if you want a team combo, get sonic to land a grab and force a ground release into the charged smash of your teammates' choice lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

how about something that doesnt set your opponents partner up for his move of choice...

 

[Kinzer]

Yep... sorry Kojin but the risks do not outweigh the benefits of causing bloodshed for Sonic and Sonic's trapped victim when you can just go for the guaranteed gay.

However it's not something to disregard when even the best of the best mess up occasionally... I've seen some doubles vids of M2K and ramdom people for a partner, and they occasionally get them hit on M2K... granted I don't think they plan on getting him for follow-ups but it still happens.

If that happens I stick with Nair so long as I know I'm not going to be sent to the blastzone in a spinning ball of suicide. If they airdodge the worst that happens is that they get hit by the ladder part of it and still suffer something. Other aerials could work, but it was just the first thing that came to mind.

 

[JayBee]

For the past month or so, I've been trying really, really hard to have a Sonic good enough to make a notable placing. I've learned so much over the year and I know the character inside and out, for the most part. I've played with very good players in MD/VA , while working on this thread and talking to all the best sonics here on smashboards. because of that I thought my Sonic was technical enough to make an impact somewhere, and for some reason, I believed it.

I was wrong.

I picked up this chracter when brawl came out, because i intentionaly wanted to be known as one of the best Sonic players, despite how good/bad he would end up being. I really did. I know people that felt the same way, but when the truth came out about his weaknesses, they all gave up and moved on to other characters. I didn't. I was so entralled in the character, that I thought that I could find some way to make it work for me, even as I got destroyed time and time again. I was shown basic sonic knowledge here, and decided to go out on my own and try to develop him personally, so i made this thread.

I guess this thread in its own right is a success, i guess.

But no matter how "technical" i got with this character, I still feel like i lose to people I should not,. Why? Simply because they play better characters, they win. that's it, i don't care if that sounds like a john to you or not. you play meta, or marth, DDD, or some thing like that, and even though on paper i'm the better player skill wise, people I should NEVER lose to (IMO) continue to pass me, and I'm tired of it. Sure, you get to be known as "that guy that plays sonic good" but I never even reached top 10, and my knowledge of the game doesn't compensate for the gap in character abilities. I don't know why certain people expect something from me that after all this time, because it has never happened.

So I'm done with this. As of right now, this thread is on hiatus.

I dunno if that means I'm done playing this character yet, because he's fun to me. but i don't think i'm ever gonna go anywhere with him, not anymore. I'm not Malcolm, Espy, or Mr.3000, and quite frankly, I'm amazed these people can take a horrible character so far in tourneys. But I dont think i have the skill to do it.

I'm going to learn other characters until i find a character that suits me, but doesnt suck balls. I have a few ideas. I'll be around the sonic boards 'cause you guys are cool and stuff, but I dont have anything left for this character. DaKid said that just beacause you know a bunch of stuff, it doesn't make you great nessesarily. That's me in a nutshell. I may know more than others concerning sonic, but I'm probably not even better than Shadofiend.

So you guys do what you want here. if you think its worth it to continue posting here, that's fine with me, but I'm not doing this anymore. I may post that i got a sonic vid or something but that's about it.

Take Care., and thanks for your comments and support this past year. Steak.

 

[Jim Morrison]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO KOJIN
I kinda feel the same as you O_o
I feel as if my Sonic can't improve anymore, even though I still get beaten by people I would easily beat if I'd play any of the top/high characters on the same level. I've been using Sonic less and less, because I see barely any improvement. I'm kinda going with Diddy/DK/Luigi now, pulling out Sonic every now and then.

 

[Espy Rose]

That's a shame Kojin. It was awesome having you around.
Good luck to you, whichever character you pick (unless it's MK ).

Make sure to take a Winning Steak on the way out. You deserve it.

 

[Chis]

Aw

Thanks for all the stuff you've helped us with Kojin, you'll be sadly missed. Here's hoping you'll still second Sonic.

 

[darkNES386]

Thanks for all your contributions Kojin.

 

[thecatinthehat]

awww.... no more of those flashy well done combo vids?

Well thanks for all of the contributions.

Mind telling us who you're looking to move to?

 

[illinialex24]

That sucks Kojin. Pick up Jigglypuff

 

[Camalange]

That sucks Kojin. Pick up Jigglypuff

He said he's moving on to a character that DOESN'T suck

Well...this is very sad to hear Kojin. Gotta say this was one of my favorite threads. I love the way you can analyse people and of course I always enjoyed your "professional" videos :D

But with that said, I hope you find the right character for you. Low Tier isn't just for everyone I guess. You truley deserve that Winning Steak though, lol.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Awww that sucks. I wanted my stuff to be looked at .

I felt the same way as you once, but I can't get rid of teh steak XD.

Don't worry guys, they always come back .

 

[illinialex24]

He said he's moving on to a character that DOESN'T suck

Well...this is very sad to hear Kojin. Gotta say this was one of my favorite threads. I love the way you can analyse people and of course I always enjoyed your "professional" videos :D

But with that said, I hope you find the right character for you. Low Tier isn't just for everyone I guess. You truley deserve that Winning Steak though, lol.

Read my signature

Now ask Cat. Does my Jigglypuff suck?? Lol.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I lol'd..

Kojin, I hope it's not bad enough to make you go to MK or something. *refers to Boxob*

 

[JayBee]

@cith: the characters i'm looking at the most are Olimar, ZSS, and Metaknight (sigh). I used to play DDD a long time ago, so I may pick him up again. no final decisions yet.

I can still do playstyle analysis. im just saying dont expect me here like i usually am.

 

[Camalange]

Read my signature

Now ask Cat. Does my Jigglypuff suck?? Lol.

I never said YOUR Jigglypuff sucks, and I'm just saying she's worse than Sonic as a character, lol.

 

[illinialex24]

Oh and I rarely post my signature now cause I don't wanna get infracted. Jay, Jiggs wants you

If you say yes this is Jigglypuff:

If you say no this is Jigglypuff:

And lol I know Carma. But she isn't that bad. I use a lot of characters so I think I have a decent sense where most characters are.

 

[infomon]

Nooooooo

why wasn't Kojin's post made on april fool's >.<

idk, when I play as Sonic, I still feel like the vast majority of times that I get hit, are for my own misteaks that I deserved to get punished for. For that reason I don't think I'd switch off Sonic because "he's not good enough". Part of the reason I switched to Sonic is so that I'd learn to actually read people and avoid predictable habits; ie. Sonic makes me "lrn2player", and I think I'm finally starting to really improve in that sense.

When I stop maining Sonic, it won't be because he's not good enough; it will be when I've really learned what I can from him and I'm ready to move on.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Kojin you mustn't give up. That only shows weakness in your brawling n spirit giving up on characters. pah thats stupid you learn form losing and from winning. Ether way we are all here to learn your our greatest source of knowledge in this GOLDEN STEAK WAR. You must pull yourself together if not all sonic's after us will fail to see his true potential which is in our grasp. Plz reconsider your chose of leaving our beloved blue blur. But if you chose to leave us let the GOLDEN STEAK OF GLORY CAST ITS LIGHT UPON WHOM EVER YOU CHOSE AS YOUR HEDGEHOG FILL-IN. Farewell to our sonic of Knowledge.

 

[illinialex24]

I find that playing multiple characters helps a lot.

As a Marth I learn good spacing and how to retreat effectively a restart very well.

From Jigglypuff I learn how to effectively integrate aerials and grabs.

From Falcon I learn how to punish lag effectively and use combinations for good approaches.

And from Sonic I learn how to effectively mindgame the opponents and space very quickly in rapid succession.

Each of these makes my Jigglypuff better and all my other characters better.

 

[ShadoFiend]

Kojin are you serious man? You're so intelligent with the Sonic gameplay. Hell you even coached me when I beat Sin's MK in that MM yo. I think you just need to take a break from Sonic but not move off him completely. You're one of the smartest out there. Don't let all you know go to waste.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

@cith: the characters i'm looking at the most are Olimar, ZSS, and Metaknight (sigh). I used to play DDD a long time ago, so I may pick him up again. no final decisions yet.

I can still do playstyle analysis. im just saying dont expect me here like i usually am.

Do mine then D:, I'd like to see what Sonic playstyle the boards fit me into .

 

[Jim Morrison]

Kojin are you serious man? You're so intelligent with the Sonic gameplay. Hell you even coached me when I beat Sin's MK in that MM yo. I think you just need to take a break from Sonic but not move off him completely. You're one of the smartest out there. Don't let all you know go to waste.

I'm not saying that Kojin should leave, but as already been pointed out, being smart/technical doesn't necasserily make someone good. I respect Kojins choice if he wishes to leave Sonic as what it is and develop other characters which frankly are... Better.

 

[aeghrur]

Goodbye Kojin. I only got to play you on a VERY laggy lag-fi once, lol. Dx
Your sonic still beat mine. :D lol.
Thanks for all your contributions man. Your technical sonic was very unique and fast, and sigh, I'll be upset not to see your combo vids anymore. Cya later.
Come to the Xat room still alright? :D

 

[illinialex24]

Yeah this kinda sucks. Well, gotta compliment you for the good work.

 

[da K.I.D.]

get better.

 

[aeghrur]

get better.

Ouchie, tough love.

 

[Kinzer]

*Sigh*

It's very sad to see things like this, but I cannot be too angry, knowing that there is always a reason for these kinds of things.

Kojin, I haven't been around as long as you have, but I know that you have done more than your fair share to take Sonic somewhere... for that I respect you no matter who you are or what you do/will do.

I won't lie, I'm sad to see you having to consider moving on, but at the same time I wish you luck just because I understand that the only thing that keeps people to come back for more Steak is probably the love for the charatcer/the community. While Sonic still requires player skill to be good (or bad) with, I sometimes wonder whether the problem lies in Sonic, or just me...

Maybe it is just me, but I either play another character (in the case that I do) just as good as my Sonic or worse, so that probably tells me that no matter how hard I try to do something different, I am bond to always play Sonic for as long as I play Brawl. I just can't play anybody else to the same degree, so I have no choice but to either quit Brawl all-together or stay as Sonic... frankly I'm fine with it. Still though, it always makes me wonder how I would be doing if I just did play antoher character, even if I am only slightly worse than him, it's just the character in itself that might have a better chance at competting than my Sonic could... I'll tell you, when I have been messing around with Fox, he felt like a better version of Sonic... (of course I would never play him, especially against his LOL-counters)

Not everybody is me though, and you Kojin, might be better with somebody else, that's okay I guess, I won't hate you for moving away from Sonic, not after all the contributions you've done. In a subtle way, you must've helped me get better, reading through all your posts and all that jazz.

Send a post card from wherever you end up if you really do decide to stride away from Sonic, okay? You will be missed.

 

[JMan8891]

Im terri-late,

Thanx for everything Kojin.

I have to agree, i know when i have hit my "walls' myself, its no fun.

I consistently place top 5, but we rarley get large tournies that i can hit up do to A a fiancee, and B Work/school johns. But it was never easy.

But i have strived to tell the character weaknesses to better ppl's understanding, to force me past that plateau, which has made me a better sonic and a better player. But i know exactly what you mean.

And frankly, all my alternates suck, with a lulzingly good C Falcon just because i went knee crazy after Steak of the North Star, lol

I wish you the best of luck in whatever it is that you do kind sir

 

[Tenki]

A long time ago, I played on wifi against a Sonic player.

I did a weak B-air semi-stage spike > footstool out of that > spring drop

he was able to recover out of that and used spring

and got grab gimped.

<3

I'll tell you now what I was thinking I might have been able to say to that Sonic player back then.



It's okay.

 

[Napilopez]

Best of luck Kojin, I wish you well, and Steak. Thank you for everything, seriously.

 

[ShadoFiend]

I'm not saying that Kojin should leave, but as already been pointed out, being smart/technical doesn't necasserily make someone good. I respect Kojins choice if he wishes to leave Sonic as what it is and develop other characters which frankly are... Better.

I suppose you're right. Theory Brawl does not get you that far....

 

[MalcolmM]

Sad news... but you will come back.