Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Jim Morrison]

Grats Kojin/Espy, 1000 posts :D

1000th reply

Anyway, my Sonic is improving. I'll save some replays soon to show you how I fight.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Sonic's ability to shorten F Air landing lag with increased hitstun automatically makes him much better in Brawl +.

 

[da K.I.D.]

can we not bring brawl+ discussion in here please

 

[JayBee]

brawl plus discussion outside of minor talk is forbidden. this is brawl. real brawl is being discussed here. not fan-made mutant brawl.

 

[Ayaz18]

so I had curry Steak yesterday

it was sick..........





Yes I am brown

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Nice, I also found this match of you Kojin agaisnt a Peach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9byfUYupqQ

Very well played. Main reason why I'm posting this though is that it shows great usage of Usmash against Peach who is a very intimidating aerial character (especially for Sonic)

Ehhhhh...

Up Smash is still bad because more often than not, Peach can start up her Dair and get a hit in before Sonic's Up Smash. Dair and Up Smash will clash and Peach will fall to ground if this happens (she won't slam into it though) and Sonic will flinch. Even if Peach gets caught in the Up Smash, she can very easily SDI out of it

I should also highlight that ASC against Peach is pretty useless. Spaced Floating Dairs will tear it to pieces. I reckon Chis can vouch for me on this one because everytime he does it, it's normally a free hit for me

There was hardly any Floating at all from Peach. No Floating Dairs whatsoever. Too much bounding around the place which is pretty ineffective against Sonic since he's so fast. Peach also missed oppotunities to punish Spring --> Dair

The Turnip use was nice and he pulled them at good times but he had a horrible habit of throwing them as soon as he got them

I hate to be sounding like such a ***** recently and I'm not saying Kojin was bad - infact I really liked watching his Sonic and that Peach was pretty good too. I just want to point out that the Peach was mostly playing the match up very wrong indeed...
...which is saying something considering Peach was close to winning

 

[Ayaz18]

Ehhhhh...

Up Smash is still bad because more often than not, Peach can start up her Dair and get a hit in before Sonic's Up Smash. Dair and Up Smash will clash and Peach will fall to ground if this happens (she won't slam into it though) and Sonic will flinch. Even if Peach gets caught in the Up Smash, she can very easily SDI out of it

I should also highlight that ASC against Peach is pretty useless. Spaced Floating Dairs will tear it to pieces. I reckon Chis can vouch for me on this one because everytime he does it, it's normally a free hit for me

There was hardly any Floating at all from Peach. No Floating Dairs whatsoever. Too much bounding around the place which is pretty ineffective against Sonic since he's so fast. Peach also missed oppotunities to punish Spring --> Dair

The Turnip use was nice and he pulled them at good times but he had a horrible habit of throwing them as soon as he got them

I hate to be sounding like such a ***** recently and I'm not saying Kojin was bad - infact I really liked watching his Sonic and that Peach was pretty good too. I just want to point out that the Peach was mostly playing the match up very wrong indeed...
...which is saying something considering Peach was close to winning

Not really

Kojin played excellently in my opinion. I know wheat you mean by Peach not using Dairs and such but that was because Kojin was too fast and technical for Peach to do ****. Seriously, Peach relies and Dair/combos/techchases/footstools, if you play a technical Sonic and not knowing which spin dash is the real spin dash that will actually connect among the 9000 canceled spin dashes, Peach becomes confused and unable to react accordingly. That's how I know Kojin did a good job, because he controlled the peach and made her become defensive and campy......which is not effective with peach. Every time Kojin made an error, Peach would do some business on Sonic like at 4:16 to 4:20 (my favorite numner )and at and the last stock that Kojin had.

That's just how Sonic plays against Peach. I do it to Niko every time in this match-up, he agrees that if Sonic is fast enough peach can't really touch him, let alone combo Sonic.

So yeah great match, I like how fast your Sonic is, very technical.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Not really

Kojin played excellently in my opinion. I know wheat you mean by Peach not using Dairs and such but that was because Kojin was too fast and technical for Peach to do ****. Seriously, Peach relies and Dair/combos/techchases/footstools, if you play a technical Sonic and not knowing which spin dash is the real spin dash that will actually connect among the 9000 canceled spin dashes, Peach becomes confused and unable to react accordingly. That's how I know Kojin did a good job, because he controlled the peach and made her become defensive and campy......which is not effective with peach. Every time Kojin made an error, Peach would do some business on Sonic like at 4:16 to 4:20 (my favorite numner )and at and the last stock that Kojin had.

That's just how Sonic plays against Peach. I do it to Niko every time in this match-up, he agrees that if Sonic is fast enough peach can't really touch him, let alone combo Sonic.

So yeah great match, I like how fast your Sonic is, very technical.

I already said that Kojin played well and that I enjoyed watching him. Where did I say I didn't think he was?

How was Sonic too fast and technical for Peach to not be able to do anything? Peach didn't even attempt to get Dair combos in. She never went in for punishment. Sonic is really not that fast. Kojin got away with so many spindashes that Peach failed to properly punish. And she has tons of options to stop spindashes

Relying on footstools? O.o Woah now, where did this come from? If this is to do with the fancy gimmick of footstool ---> Floating Dair, that is really something that only happens accidently. Good Peach players don't go bounding around trying to footstool their opponents

I will stand by what I say in that Peach doesn't have to approach Sonic if she doesn't want to but when the time comes, a Floating Dair above Sonic's head is the way to go (unless he's spacing Bair that is). The billion ways Sonic can cancel his moves are pretty useless if Peach is Dairing Sonic because it stops pretty much all his spindash stuff

If Peach loses to Sonic because he doesn't know how to deal with spindashes/doesn't know the difference/is losing because he doesn't react accordingly then that's their fault and is simply to do with playing the match up wrong/the other player is better. I use both characters and when you learn all of Sonic's tricks, in my view it's clear that Peach has an advantage over Sonic


I fear I've been sounding horrible recently and I really don't want to :/ I love you guys but I want to get this match up right, for both Peach's and Sonic's sake. And in that video, in my opinion, that Peach played the match up completely wrong. Don't get me wrong, I've watched Kojin before and he's got a great Sonic but I don't want anyone basing the Peach vs Sonic match up on this video because this is most definitly not how it goes

Since we're on the subject of Peach, I want someone to look into using VSDJ to jump over a floating Peach and punish her if she's trying to use Floating aerials. They knock Sonic out of it though so don't do it directly into her. I reckon it could be a really helpful mix up against her

 

[Chis]

That Peach didn't know the match up well IMO.

 

[JayBee]

so the moral of this story is... um...

Kojin's Sonic: Technical
Espy's Sonic: Aggro
Malcolm's Sonic: Mindgames


thats kinda cool.


in any case, The peach was good, however, either he didn't know the matchup (which I doubt because we talked afterward and he seemed to know he was talking about) and/or I did a better job of keeping him uncomfortable. I am positive that he expected an aggro fest from a sonic, but I don't ever feel that that is smart against a good peach. Also keep in mind that in both stages we played on, i was uncomfortable playing Peaches there. i never got a chance to pick a stage either. And as you could see, when ever he did touch me i took a lot of damage so my mindset was to never give him that chance to begin with. and that's why the matches lasted so long. but i feel that a sonic must allow that to happen if that means he doesn't get *****. Honestly, I was probably the most different Sonic he's ever played, and certainly the best one he's ever played as well.

@RDDD: ima go look at those matches again, so i can see it from your point of view. so dont anywhere. ill be back. okay?

 

[Ayaz18]

I already said that Kojin played well and that I enjoyed watching him. Where did I say I didn't think he was?

How was Sonic too fast and technical for Peach to not be able to do anything? Peach didn't even attempt to get Dair combos in. She never went in for punishment. Sonic is really not that fast. Kojin got away with so many spindashes that Peach failed to properly punish. And she has tons of options to stop spindashes

Relying on footstools? O.o Woah now, where did this come from? If this is to do with the fancy gimmick of footstool ---> Floating Dair, that is really something that only happens accidently. Good Peach players don't go bounding around trying to footstool their opponents

I will stand by what I say in that Peach doesn't have to approach Sonic if she doesn't want to but when the time comes, a Floating Dair above Sonic's head is the way to go (unless he's spacing Bair that is). The billion ways Sonic can cancel his moves are pretty useless if Peach is Dairing Sonic because it stops pretty much all his spindash stuff

If Peach loses to Sonic because he doesn't know how to deal with spindashes/doesn't know the difference/is losing because he doesn't react accordingly then that's their fault and is simply to do with playing the match up wrong/the other player is better. I use both characters and when you learn all of Sonic's tricks, in my view it's clear that Peach has an advantage over Sonic


I fear I've been sounding horrible recently and I really don't want to :/ I love you guys but I want to get this match up right, for both Peach's and Sonic's sake. And in that video, in my opinion, that Peach played the match up completely wrong. Don't get me wrong, I've watched Kojin before and he's got a great Sonic but I don't want anyone basing the Peach vs Sonic match up on this video because this is most definitly not how it goes

Since we're on the subject of Peach, I want someone to look into using VSDJ to jump over a floating Peach and punish her if she's trying to use Floating aerials. They knock Sonic out of it though so don't do it directly into her. I reckon it could be a really helpful mix up against her

well you were hinting towards it.......

and Sonic being fast changes EVERYTHING, peach can't do **** because of the amount of cancels. it becomes hard for her to read WHEN Sonic is going to attack, and I know for a fact that's how peach is played, pretty much on observing and reacting.

About footstools......well it must be just me then, cause Niko is like the only Peach I play, and uses gay footstool techs and techchases with his footstools.

And yes, canceles are effective against a floating peach because she can't float forever :/

Sonic mearly has to predict when she's going to drop/Dair, then attack when she has no options or is suffering cooldown. It requires some badass timing, like how Kojin did.

the match-up can be argued, but we don't have the Peach player here........but even if you know the cancels you still don't know when Sonic ISN'T going to cancel

And no, I don't hate you.

I love everyone........I just dislike some people *coughTKONTKcough*

<3

 

[Kinzer]

Hey guys, it's great that you guys have good intentions on discussing the matchup and all, but why not take this to the respective thread in where it belongs...?

Also JB, you're missing balanced and defensive Sonic... ^_^

I know you won't believe me because I have no vidyas to back it up (no offline ones or anything like that anyway...), but I like to think I am the most balanced Sonic there is.

 

[JayBee]

you may be right kinzer, but the thread was dead for a few days, and I liked reading thier thoughts here sometimes. they were also kind of critiquing me, so in that context, it can go here. maybe i should put Kojin's style discussion on the thread...

this is kinda wierd, critiquing myself, but work with it for a second.

Kojin vs BTC notes: Round 1

The peach appears defensive, but so does the sonic actually. Both seem to be feeling each other out, trying to force the other move first. Some of the spin dashes look like they are hitting because he fakes so much, others because of the peaches spacing/ reaction time. Now that I look at it, those long range spin dashes should have been failsause. Kojin’s Hit and Run tactics need to be polished more, but they were still very good.

Kojin makes a good amount of mistakes in the first round. He gets hit by F Smash and Fair too much IMO. However, I think the peach over used the turnips, because that little bit of time it takes to pull them up allowed Kojin to play his spacing game. She probably should have gotten agro more, but she was too defensive and seemed to let Kojin restore his spacing. For example the peach would knock sonic off the stage, but do very little to edgegaurd, and I thought that was a big part of peaches game… Nair also was not used as much as it could have been. I also saw a lot of sidesteps for her, even when Sonic wasn’t even intending to approach. This is evidence that Kojin’s goal to control the spacing of the match was effective, making the peach wary of every cancel, regardless of the possibility of an actual one hitting her.

I noticed a lot of crossups by Kojin. What I mean is that he will run to the peach, only to run right past her to do nothing. This im sure messed with the Peaches mind a lot. Anyone else would have tried to attack at least. This only makes the “Crossup Smash” more effective. Also, Kojin’s spacing at times looks very good, which is what you need against Peach regardless of style. (3:30; she runs into a charged FSmash edgegaurd. Steak.)

In the first match, The Spring right after the dair completed (2:26) was a nice idea. Im not sure if this is a consistant thing though, since he only does it once. Kojin has a tendency to be random in matches, which is sometimes a double-edged sword. He also did a lot of simply running away, like if there was any chance he was at a disadvantage, he’d go away and try to reset the spacing. I don’t think the peach noticed this…

Despite the mistakes on both sides the matches looked very even, and both sides seemed to not really want to give the other one a severe advantage in anything. As a result the matches lasted longer than many peach sonic matches should, but I think that’s because they both were really good players.

 

[Chis]

That Peach should float more, and left him/herself way too open IMO.

 

[JayBee]

Sonic dittos between me and my apprentice, ThunderHorse. he learns fast.
from the Gamepad tourney. sonic dittos are too fun.

Kojin (Dark Sonic) vs Thunderhorse (Blue Sonic) 1

Kojin (Dark Sonic) vs Thunderhouse (Blue Sonic) 2

lol i had so much fun i had complete disregard of the time...
discuss.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You guys are missing my point ><

That Peach was playing the match up wrong. I've already critiqued that Peach's matches over on the boards and whilst I'm not saying Kojin is a bad player (seriously, give me evidence of where I ever said or even hinted at this. And there is a difference between bad and getting away with things because of the other person) I want to make it perfectly clear that the Peach vs Sonic match up is NOT even. This Peach was not using Dair properly at all. She also had a horrific habit of 2nd jumping every single before using an aerial

The fact that the Peach was Floating Dair at correct height (or even at all) changes everything. It's like Snake not using his F Tilt or Falco not using his lasers or chaingrabs. And sorry but Sonic is not that fast once you learn how to deal with him. His options against a Floating Dair are very limited bar a spaced Bair and even then that's still risky. Spaced Bairs are very good but Peach has other methods of dealing with that as well. Peach never used Floating Dair which is something I want to stress to the point of my eyeballs popping out. Infact, Peach hardly Floated at all. Just because she can't stay in the air forever doesn't mean she can't stay there for a fair amount of time. A corectly positioned Floating Dair stops all of Sonic's ground options except a lucky Up Tilt or Up Smash

Cancels are not effective when you've got Peach pounding away at your sheild and since she can stay in the air...well they're still not great because you're stuck there. Lol, half the time Peach doesn't need to completely read what Sonic is going to do because she outprioritizes him completely. And what if Peach reads Sonic? She's arguably just as good at punishing Sonic in this match up

Peach shouldn't be falling down right into Sonic - that's a bad case of spacing. She should have halted herself with her Float, which she didn't use

In short, Kojin handled the Peach very well and excellent job on his behalf. Peach however didn't utilise everything she could have done vs Kojin

I'm tired now but if you want to discuss this more, please get Niko in to give his view. It'd be great to get other Peach's views on this because I feel as though I'm fighting on my own here. Chis, I want to try and get some replays of us up again sometime soon as well. Not ideal but I'd like to show people mainly where I'm coming from. If I'm coming from the right direction then great. If people say 'Hang on! That's not right, you've been wrong all this time!' because of it then that's even better. Also, yea we should take this to the match up thread. For future, I'll post in the match up thread I apologise Kojin for littering your thread up


Moving on - have you thought about incoperating pivot grabs into your game? Sonic's isn't great but I reckon it'd be a nice mix up since you like to fake your opponent out by running past them

 

[JayBee]

yeah, lets leave the peach player alone. he needs to L2player. i get it.

its possible if you are teh kind of sonic that is very good with the run, i used to do it during tech chases, and when i ran past an opponent. most of it was during the time the opponent was botherered by somethigng else. i dont really get much success from it, so you probably wont see me do it unless its random. i like the way it looks though.


but seriously, you have to have godly spacing to pull it off all the time.

 

[da K.I.D.]

hes also missing the patient sonic...


anyway, i feel like my sonic has reached a new level and i really want to get some vids up, and in that case it seems ill have to wait until gauntlet to get any vids...

p.s. i also play a mean chu dat. Not kirby tho, my kirby is bad, my chu dat is pretty beast tho

 

[JayBee]

glad to hear about dat steak KID can't wait to see the improvements...

 

[JayBee]

Since we're on the subject of Peach, I want someone to look into using VSDJ to jump over a floating Peach and punish her if she's trying to use Floating aerials. They knock Sonic out of it though so don't do it directly into her. I reckon it could be a really helpful mix up against her

we know it won't prioritize anything, but it can be used rarely as a suprise attack. that might work. and you can Spring Dair away at any point as a fake out. isn't her movement slower in float stance?

 

[B.A.M.]

Quick question guys Im having a problem spindashing to reverse spinshot. how do i go about reversing the spinshot midair?

 

[Jim Morrison]

I don't know how you can spindash to spinshot, spindash being side-b and without using your 2nd jump, which is probably why you can't do it.
Otherwise, side-B the other side and do a regular spinshot.

 

[JayBee]

anytime you can jump cancel out of a spin dash roll and still have your second jump, you can side B spinshot in any direction. you cannot spinshot out of it, you must be in spin dash jump mode.

 

[Tenki]

SDR > SDJ > aerial spinshot?

lol

 

[JMan8891]

RE5 has utterly absorbed me since Fri...

W8ing for meh Ko-nalysis, lol

 

[JayBee]

i started on yours but finals are a week away, so you may have to wait a bit longer... sry.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

SDR > SDJ > aerial spinshot?

lol

That sounds like SOOO much fun. Extended CitH combo.

 

[JayBee]

SDR > SDJ > aerial spinshot?

lol

...
um... you know this is possible right?
granted you have to either wait for the SDJ to end, or you SDJ> aerial first. the second option is cooler though, especially if the aerial connects. then i can side b spin shot left or right...

extended the CitH combo...

edit: i actually like the idea of doing a cith setup after the Kidcg setup almost solely on the movement aspect, so im going to practice this and see what I come up with. laters.

 

[JayBee]

Approach definitions for the steaklings.

hey guys, a lot of sonics are incorperating what myself sepy, malcolm and others have made a habit of doing: runing back and forth abusing the turn around animation of sonic to properly space while maintaining movement. I 'd like to suggest the give this idea a name, and the name I'd think would best describe it is "Dash Weaving." IMO it should be considered an advanced movement spacing tactic that pro sonics use. Here is my definitions:


Common Sonic Approaches

"The Genesis Approach": A bad habit usually by beginner Sonic players they primarily use Spin Dashes ( (Side B and Down B) at long range to get in close quickly and attack. due to the abiltiy to cancel into a jump, sonic has a chance to jump away and possible spring away to escape a potential counter attack. this basic idea has little merit over the course of the match due to its low priority and the time it grants the opponent to prepare measures against it, making this tactic more predicatble over time.. It is strongly advised that beginners restrain from this tactic as much as humanly possible.

Intermediate/Expert Approaches

"Dash Weaving" The act of Sonic's repeated usage of his run animation with his turn around animation. It's main purpose is to act as a alternative spacing method that allows him to continue forward at maximum running speed at any time. It is versatile due to Sonic's speed, which allows him to retreat or press forward on the offense, while allowing him to react defensively in multiple situations and counter attack easier than the Spin Dash or Genesis Approaches can. The potentially erratic nature of this movement strategy also makes it more difficult for opponents to pin him down or properly space their attacks.

"Spin Dash Approach" The act of progressing forward mostly by the Spin Dash and Spin Charge Specials (side B and down B) as well as the Aerial Spin Charge (ASC) and their cancels. By itself, this method of approach is very unsafe due to the moves lack of priority. However, the spins ability to cancel their movements, and cancel with jumps can make its path unpredictable, confusing most opponents. When used correctly in increases the chance of a Spin Dash combo or a shield cancelled grab. Best used at mid range.

"The Spinshot Approach" This is usually a ground to air approach that makes good use of the Spinshot Advanced Technique, and in some cases, the Forward Spin Dash Jump tactic. The advantages of these tactics not only negates Sonic's lower than average air maneuverability, but can be canceled into attacks and special moves at most points. It can be used as an alternate method to approach projectile users from long range, or just as an approach where the opponent would have to go out of thier way to counter you, in which case you can attack, air dodge, or Spring Jump (UpB Special) away in relative safety. In the case of the Forward Spin Dash Jump, (best done by tapping forward on the C-stick during Down B's charge animation or tapping jump during Spin Dash Roll (SDR) )
you also maintain an hitbox for the duration of the move's ascent. The player must understand the transfer of Sonic's jump data to prevent this tactic from backfiring.

discuss.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

God I miss dashdancing..... Sonic would be top of mid if it was in. No joke.

 

[JayBee]

yeah its mad good in Brawl +

 

[MarKO X]

lol. The Genesis Approach. Awesome name choice. I abuse this on Yoshi Island Brawl, Pictochat, and the left side of Corneria. You probably know why.

VSDJ doesn't get a mention? I've been using it lately, and it is become a strong part of my game. For whatever reason, it helps me space bairs better.

 

[Kinzer]

Take a look into the Spinshot approach.

I know it isn't exactly as the name suggests, but if I read that correctly, he made a mention of VSDJ.

 

[JayBee]

feel free to point out any inaccruacies. its not just for me y'know.
It's to have a better way of describing situations and then allow the less experienced sonics to understand easier.

i didn't know what area to place VSDJ.... any thoughts?

 

[Camalange]

i didn't know what area to place VSDJ.... any thoughts?

Spindash approach maybe?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Oh hey Kojin. I know it was wifi and you didn't get enough to analyze me but since you ARE the Sonic analyzer any impressions from our couple of rounds?

 

[Kinzer]

I can already tell you you need moar side-taunt.

...Can't ever get enough of that stuff...

 

[da K.I.D.]

you deffo forgot straight run up and attack approach, a good example is run across the stage to fair.

theres also the run behind approach, thats good too

 

[memphischains]

put spring/dair as an approach

 

[infomon]

Dash Attack; on its own, or as a follow-up to dashdance craziness (IDA, dashdance fakeout to IDA, etc.)

To add to what KID said about run up and Fair: I loooove to run up, tap shield to powershield any possible attack, and jump-cancel Fair (whether or not they attack). In fact rising Fair is simply awesome.

Run up and shield-grab is also crucial. You might as well consider that part of "run up and attack".

One that I love is dash around, then screech-stop into Ftilt. Ftilt for spacing moar pl0x.

An approach that is rarely used, but I've been finding useful: side-B across the stage at about face-height of the opponent; ie. hop or shorthop into side-B aerial approach. It's one way to bait them since it looks soooo punishable.... but you can Nair, Fair, laggy Dair, nuisance-spring away into a quick lagless Dair, homing attack if they do something really dumb..... basically I use aerial side-B to get into an opponent's face and be a nuisance lol.

Actually it's pretty dumb.