• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
He wasn't supposed to use a B-moves that fast if he hadn't hit the ground. The ground cancelled his hitstun so he could immedeatly use ASC to cancel his momentum. Ground is good.
 

memphischains

Smash hhkj'
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
3,953
Location
Boston, MA
wait wait wait

i'm still slightly confused on kojin's yoshi application.
i like to use it from end to end often there, so i dont know if i'm already doing this, but for some reason the words aren't clicking with me

infzy make a vid or something
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
Roll (like dodge roll >_>) to the edge of the stage, charge a spindash in the direction of the other side of the stage, release, PROFIT
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
He wasn't supposed to use a B-moves that fast if he hadn't hit the ground. The ground cancelled his hitstun so he could immedeatly use ASC to cancel his momentum. Ground is good.
The point of it was that you normally can't DI downwards that noticeably.

But if you're in midair, you can.
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
Hey Jaybee, I have videos up of me doing some grab-throw shenanigans.

Here's a taste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ZTPHxHG64&feature=channel_page
1:36-1:41
-44% damage was dealt there, thanks to the sourspot Bair.

Speaking of which, people should use sourspot (SS) Bair. It's ridiculously awesome. Especially at low percents, because you can do what I did in that video...lol

SS Bair (Must be FF) > Input Run > Grab + Throw of Choice.

If you connect with a SS Bair close to the ground, and input a run + grab immediatly upon landing...it's a guaranteed grab. Not too sure if this is known already, but it's so ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFK8BiX8TmI&feature=channel_page
0:25-0:30
-Not as good as the last one, but still shows exactly what I'm referring to.

Kojin, if you like these, I can make a little complilation of all my best grab > throw moments and upload them to rapidshare or something. I know you've been lookin' for this kind of stuff.

Also, I was hoping maybe you could analyze me now? I uploaded like...10 matches of me against a Link, lol. The matches I linked were probably my best...but if you want to see me get *****, watch the one on Yoshi Island (I know...for shame...after you've been preaching about it ;_; ) and on Norfair...lol. I also somehow went from pure Steak to fail mode on that FD match. Ah well.

:093:
 

memphischains

Smash hhkj'
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
3,953
Location
Boston, MA
oh wtf

so much hype off something so little.
jaybee, no hate or nothing, good that you posted about it but i didn't know that people didnt know that it was a more than didnt known thing to be didnt know.

...
yeah but anyway yeah ****s ****
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
yeah, like i said before, its not something you should not know, but the hard thing about it, and the reason it was kinda ignored for a while was because we weren't seriously thinking of abusing it w/o the possibility of it messing up the entire gameplan, which is true. im not that awesome MChains. so yeah people kinda knew, but didn't , yknow? Malcolm didn't.


Camalange, i'll analyze you, but i don't look only at the matches you win in. that's stupid.
ill look for matches a month of two back. be prepared.

anything to make my life easier for vids, plz do. im not that technical with computers.
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
Camalange, i'll analyze you, but i don't look only at the matches you win in. that's stupid.
ill look for matches a month of two back. be prepared.

anything to make my life easier for vids, plz do. im not that technical with computers.
Well duh, lol, I know that.

http://www.youtube.com/user/CAMALANGE

This is my YouTube page and I just uploaded 10 matches against my friend's Link (most recent), but I guess you can watch some of the older stuff...I've gotten a lot better and learned a lot more since those...but hey, you're the expert, lol.

These are some recent matches against my friend's ROB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8lQcHiG6SA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_tMXl1KzMU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPZZslZc2ew&feature=channel_page - This one was mostly for the lulz...

Thanks again Kojin.

EDIT -

Sourspot Bair?

What do you guys think about the Sourspot Bair shenanigans? I thought it was pretty steaksauce but I'm not seeing any input...

I blame the Xat Chat...

:093:
 

MarKO X

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Brooklyn
NNID
legendnumberM
3DS FC
2595-2072-2390
Switch FC
531664639998
The iSDR abused can also be used on Pictochat, no? I mention Pictochat because it's a legal stage in an upcoming tourney known as Gauntlet in NY that's supposed to have mad Sonic's there, not including myself :(. It has the same edge setup as YI:B...
 

Tenki

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 3, 2008
Messages
6,966
Location
GA
it's even easier to iSDR on pictochat because the edges are so steep. on YI:B, you have to charge slightly or else you'll be too far up to iSDR. This is good for Pictochat because you can do a single-charge iSDR, and the slower it is, the more daunting it is for the opponent/better attack bait it is.

And you can also airdash across the trees and certain other platforms.

though, don't abuse it vs Gyro. It has multi hits and stays in place at first, so it'll clang and immediately hit you lol.
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
yeah. gyro sucks. ballz. i almost nver go to picto chat. and niether does anyone else for he most part. so that can work as a surpise stage to abut iSDR easy. go train on it for a while and get used to doing it.
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
double post... because "this is delicious!"

Camalange no Style: The best thing about the sonic boards, is that we are arguably the most active character board in smashboards, as far as brawl is concerned. the best Sonic's work together, sharing knowledge and constantly show vids of their steak for the others to see. this makes it a lot easier for other sonics to grasp certain aspects and with hard work have a good sonic too,and the similarities between the people he learns from stand out.

General style: His sonic has a fast pace to it, and thrives when he has the momentum. He uses a hit an run style that only changes the second he gets a throw off, and it works for him.

Ground Game: His offense while on the ground is focused on two things: grabs and Spins. His ability to maintain momentum after a single grab is high level and its complemented by a running game similar to Malcolm/Kojin, though when you look closer at the way he adds multiple spin cancels to mix it up, its more similar to Kojin. Compared to Malcolm, Kojin, and Espy, however, his usage of jabs and tilts are nearly nonexistent, which is confusing, because in his older vids. he used them often. because of this his primary ways to grab his opponents are from shield cancelled grabs, and Spin cancelled grabs.out side of this, he uses dash attack, which although, he is good at linking with uptilt (his only commonly used tilt), means that a safe opponent can rip this strategy apart unless he utilizes more tilts.The most exciting part of his game, outside of the grab setups, is his ability to use the spinshot with the sourspot bairs (boxbairs) in tandem that is appears almost automatic and second nature to him It's like a suprise kick in the face. His primary finisher is FSmash, which he employs a few mindgames to get off, like running behind his opponent before using it, or stutter stepping it...

Throw Game: His throw game is very advanced and focuses heavily on Sonic's throw setups. His reliance on this determines a large part of the match, BUT when he lands it, he's as good at follow ups as anybody. he has a solid setup/chase for every throw. that's not something most sonic's have. He uses back throw more than I thought he would, but it may be to make up for the fact that the people he faces on a regular basis tech Dthrow well.


Air Game:
bair is his primary weapon, but he takes a less walked approach and likes using the sourspot bairs more. this lets him go into his grab game well, where he likes to be.most of his moves in the air are followups though, so there isn't much to talk about except that he makes a use for all aerials, which is refreshing to see. He is most dynamic in the air out of Spinshot, which appears to be his trademark move.

Edge game: His edge game i have no real complains about, though i would ask him to look at espy's edge game and take notes from that.Sonic's recovery is so good that he can go near the blast line in some stages and still make it back safely, so be more daring. other than that he is quick in using a wide range of edge guarding tactics, so this is clearly a strong point in his game.

Weaknesses:
His recovery, as well as what he does when knocked upwards, seems predictable, so work more on varying the way you recover.please stop Spring> dairing sometimes. it seems like you do it as an impulse, you gotta get away from that now.

Style Verdict: Grapple/Ground/Edge

Immediate results from observing vids: more spinshot>bair usage


Final Thoughts:
I'm not gonna lie, I swear it was like I was watching myself from around half a month ago, down to the ledgegrab> let go> Spinshot into wall> wall bounce> regrabs. Are you my little brother or something? lol Your use of Nairs as a GTFO move is nice, I almost never use it by comparison. Maybe I should... and I love your spinshots. if you are on the edge, and someone is trying to recover from below you, try letting go and fast fall a Fair every once in a while. Its very good as a surprise, and can stage spike too (Malcolm does it sometimes). You can also try running off the stage and falling with fair as they recover from below too. personal question: Why do you never use Upsmash? Am I like, the only one?

Ban Norfair. lol
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
your jaw would drop if you saw how much up smash i use...

also, with the abundant lack of vids of mine, you might have to wait till i come up there and analyse my style in person. lol.

also, are all the styles that you analysegrouped together somewhere, i dont want to have to go fishing for them
 

Jim Morrison

Smash Authority
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
15,287
Location
The Netherlands
<_< I like this analyzing styles. If I get more vids up, I'll request my analysis. I kinda know what some parts will be like lol. Terrible grab game, good use of spinshawt, supah slow.
 

infomon

Smash Scientist
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
5,559
Location
Toronto, Canada
i made a complementary video that talks about using iSDR on YI:B. steak. you'll like it, i guess...

Sonic's iSDR edge camp
It was a great vid, except...... none of the iSDR demonstrations made use of the fact that it was invincible :( afaict you were hitting him like you could with just a normal SDR. Except maybe the yo-yo, I'm not sure if a regular SDR clashes with it or moves so fast it gets hit.

Here are some ways that the iSDR could have exhibited more "priority" than regular SDR in that match:
  • Go clean through PK-fire, punishing Ness' ending lag
  • Go through Ness' Fair (and maybe his other aerials as well? I'm not sure about that though)
  • Go through a properly-timed grab attempt (hard with Ness cuz his grabbox is so small and SDR moves so fast anyway)

I find it terribly useful against Falco/Wolf/ROB/Lucas.
 

JMan8891

Halfrican-American
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
2,135
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
If u get the time Kojin, could u analyze my playstyle?? I haven't been critiqued in months...

And my matches would have to be looked up on WSC: I put any match i have on there, win or loose. Besides, i use my ps3 to post, and no copy paste sux and prevents me collecting them
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
It was a great vid, except...... none of the iSDR demonstrations made use of the fact that it was invincible :( afaict you were hitting him like you could with just a normal SDR. Except maybe the yo-yo, I'm not sure if a regular SDR clashes with it or moves so fast it gets hit.

Here are some ways that the iSDR could have exhibited more "priority" than regular SDR in that match:
  • Go clean through PK-fire, punishing Ness' ending lag
  • Go through Ness' Fair (and maybe his other aerials as well? I'm not sure about that though)
  • Go through a properly-timed grab attempt (hard with Ness cuz his grabbox is so small and SDR moves so fast anyway)

I find it terribly useful against Falco/Wolf/ROB/Lucas.
Actually, you are right, i could have made it better, but it was a very basic tutorial. I can easily make another to go with it. maybe the next time, i'll show a vid of sonic going through stuff. this was more of a "hey, did you know..." thing as is supposed to go make you try it yourself.

KID, the OP is the best place to look. I'll do it here

Tenki(page 30)

Mr. 3000(pg 30)

Malcolm(pg 30)


RATS(pg 36)

Chis (pg41)

Puffball aka Espy (pg 49)

DjBrowny

Camalange
 

Ayaz18

Smash Champion
Joined
May 8, 2008
Messages
2,052
Location
Canada, ON, St. catharines
lol Nothing

i'm going to a lot of tournies soon.......the biggest one being FFYF2, M2K, Vidjo, Inui and other EmerIcUnzzz are going but I hope Canada can beat most of them out.

lol apparently Vidjo knows me :/
 
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,313
Location
Rhode Island
NNID
Kid Craft 24
3DS FC
3823-8516-6187
meh i would like my style analyzed but i really don't have much to show you guys thats of me other than wi-fi battles soon hopefully i can bring to you guys some vids of real brawls.
 

Camalange

Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
May 12, 2008
Messages
9,420
Location
Seattle
NNID
Camalange
3DS FC
1160-9836-5007
Switch FC
SW-4197-1438-9208
Wow Kojin...LOL

You're too good :D I may be your little bro...lmao

I've been trying to focus on the tilts thing, because I too have noticed that I've been lacking in that department.

As for the Usmash thing...I'm working on it, lol. I just for whatever reason suck at landing it, but my primary focus recently has been trying to find set ups for it...like grab > Uthrow > Usmash at 0% or something. I've seen people/played Sonics who can camp landing points with it, but I mostly use Dsmash for that...lol >_> I'll figure out something. I just gotta find a way to make it feel "natural". It's the only move I don't feel confident with, hence the lack of it.

Everything you said hit the nail on the head...like the comment of my spinshot>sourspot bair and grab/throw games.

Most importantly though is the bit about my old style to my new style.

I feel like if I can just find a perfect balance of my oldschool basics, and my newschool tactics...I would achieve pure steak. Thanks again for analyzing me man, I really appreciate it. It was really cool seeing my playstyle broken down :p

:093:
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
1,339
Location
West Lafayette, IN Downers Grove,
Buffering: inputing command(s) just before you're actually able to do them
Result: command(s) are executed as soon as possible.

A simple example is pressing A twice quickly to do two jabs without having to worry about executing the kick and allowing you to focus on your next move.

I saw Tenki talking about buffering aerials>run somewhere on the forum. I remember watching a video of him back in like November where I commented on match where he did that pretty well. Anyways, this is like my favorite place to discuss stuff and I was wondering if everyone incorporates buffering into their game and if so when?

I know for a fact that whenever I do a dash attack I usually buffer a pivot>fitlt or a pivot>grab. I've recently realized that when landing from a fair (for example) buffering an ftilt upon landing is a great way to keep constant pressure.

Comments?
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
5,575
Location
Europe
Just to let you guys know (if you dont know already :p):
I read the time to buffer a move is from 0.1 to 0.6 seconds before then end of your previous action.
 

darkNES386

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
1,339
Location
West Lafayette, IN Downers Grove,
uair > any tilt or jab is pretty sweet
also it's really easy to do uair>dtilt if you do both commands with the c-stick it actually won't do a dsmash when you hit down on the c-stick just before landing.

Also.. when doing an aerial while moving foward, you can do a pivot-walk by holding foward just before landing and then pressing back foward into a tilt or whatever (might be useful).

Fast falling bairs have a very small cool down time so consider not fast falling when applicable to string attacks together faster (example: your opponent is shielding a lot when you approach with aerials so bair without fast falling to pull out a ftilt upon landing)
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
your jaw would drop if you saw how much up smash i use...

also, with the abundant lack of vids of mine, you might have to wait till i come up there and analyse my style in person. lol.

also, are all the styles that you analysegrouped together somewhere, i dont want to have to go fishing for them

? when will you be in virginia?


all good sonics should buffer as much as possbile. such is the law of steak.


Edit: watching vids of Jman now for style analysis...
 

JMan8891

Halfrican-American
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
2,135
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
Sweet

Forgot to mention, 99% of my vids are on "zcasanova" 's youtube channel

And i took 4th in melee with Young Link and C Falc, and 3rd in Brawl all Sonic. Stupid D3 CG and Snake tilts...
 

JayBee

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 13, 2002
Messages
2,173
Location
Green Hill Zone, MD/VA
NNID
jamesbrownjrva
i recorded a bunch of freindlies with my friends over the weekend, so ima make a short combo vid out of it. there was some cool steak man. its gonna be short, like "What u need" and it'll be me versus another character again, but its still awesome, so check it out when its done.


Has anyone ever heard of the falling Uair > uptilt as a combo? I know it can be done, and its part of my uair mindgames. its a 3-4 hit combo at early-mid percents and its awesome to do, and also aids in catching airdodges and popping them back in the air. if you watch some of my recent matches, you will see it eventually.

discuss.
 

messiahfreak2000

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
157
Location
Oregon
NNID
messiahfreak2000
Falling uair>utilt combo? As long as the uair's second hit doesn't hit, its an almost guarantee to go into utilt. I do it all the time (mostly when my uair aim is off and I only get the first hit, but I think the utilt can be buffered or something).
 

Espy Rose

Dumb horse.
Joined
May 31, 2006
Messages
30,577
Location
Texas
NNID
EspyRose
I used to use uair to utilt plenty.

However, it feels more like a simple hat trick you should pull only once every few matches.
Anymore than that and you get grabbed, smashed, or utilted.
 
Top Bottom