Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Aposl]

Kojin is like, a really good sonic and stuff. it's like he's psychic. he's too goodz. Can't wait to see Malcolm vs. Kojin at BTYF.

 

[Camalange]

lol, didn't I mention First Hit Uair > Usmash at low %s in this thread?

Utilt is probably better when the opponent ISN'T at 0%...lol

 

[JayBee]

?: I'm noticing lately that im getting a lot of Up smashes lately. either its really good timing, or whatever, but its not like i study where infzy frames are, so is it that im magically doing it like that, or what? Ive been using it in three situations usually:

anticipation of airdodges or wakeup situations

i anticipate when the let go of the ledge, then Up smash near it. in some examples, im not right on the edge but i get a hit anyway. up smash is too good.

obviously against aerial spammers...

If you do it at max range, it seems to be relatively save when you add the IASA frames to it, which i usually run or spring from.

just a few thoughts.

Also, another vid is being uploaded tonight. its about as long as What U Need. hope you enjoy. kinda put it together rather quickly... link will posted when received.

 

[da K.I.D.]

up smash is great.

it ***** airdodgers.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

it also ***** glides and cancels pits forward-b and in some occasions MK's tornado. I don't use my up smash as much any more but i'm trying to find were i can insert it into my play style.

 

[JMan8891]

Great punisher... when ppl learn to smash DI it tho.... you can get punished

Sorta a "choose wisley"

 

[Napilopez]

This is kinda unrelated to the current discussion, but I just thought of something, for edgeguarding. It sounds risky and uber situational, but maybe itll come in handy at some point.

What if you did a dair offstage directly into a homing attack when the dair finished? The HA works pretty darn well from below in most situations where you would use it, so who knows, maybe itll be useful if you miss an edgeguard with a dair. Just a random thought that came to me.

 

[MarKO X]

In terms of upsmash, that move is great to punish someone who thinks they can safely land anywhere near you. If used correctly, it adds a new level of pressure to your game. One moment, you'll see the opponent airdodge and get upsmash *****, then you can mindgame it as they'll land with an attack, which you can thus shield or spotdodge and then grab. upsmash is great.

In terms of Dair to HA, it sounds like fun, but what if they airdodge? Or, will they not have enough time to do so?

 

[darkNES386]

Upsmash has invincy frames that can eat through anything if timed right... obviously it can be risky against an attack like toon like's dair, but sometimes it's helpful to get this in and rattle your opponent. If you convince them Sonic has sick priority that might be your ticket to forcing them to change their methods. Much easier to do offline than online of course. There's a sonic I played on wifi recently who likes to do uthrow usmash at 0 percent. That's another way to get it in.

What if you did a dair offstage directly into a homing attack when the dair finished? The HA works pretty darn well from below in most situations where you would use it, so who knows, maybe itll be useful if you miss an edgeguard with a dair. Just a random thought that came to me.

My only concern is that if the player knows anything about sonic's HA they'll get as far away from you as possible or spot dodge at the right moment to get invincy frames forcing Sonic to HA down. Your only saving grace would be if the HA charge rises into the bottom of the stage. I "try" to use HA off screen when I feel it's my best chance of getting closer to stage, usually after someone trys to gimp me and sorta succeeded.

 

[JayBee]

I have been working on HA edgegaurds lately and its very difficult to use. the reason is that any attempt to air dodge by the opponent can put me in a position where i kill myself, or something jsut as bad. it can work if you get airborne quickly as they are getting knocked away, because they are more concerned with regaining thier character at that point. it has a high chance of posssibilty the farther you are from the stage for that reason, but can fail and cause you to SD just as much. only try if you are positive you can come back with up B alone, and only if you are high already in th air.


Edit: im considering adding more footage to the isdr video, either that, or simply link that actual match from which you saw video. its a good example, though it is a long match i think. but thats what you have to do sometimes...

im trying to get the vid up that should have been up last night but for whatever reason didn't. be patient if you can, sonic boards...

im also thinking of breaking the throws up like i did for the f-throw vid, so it'll be shorter and i can talk abotu just one, then make a vid just about throw combos. what do you think?

 

[Tenki]

Great punisher... when ppl learn to smash DI it tho.... you can get punished

Sorta a "choose wisley"

as long as you avoid the first hit, it's almost impossible to SDI out of the U-smash.

 

[JayBee]

"Soko Da" A Kojin/Sonic vid
the video is still processing, so give it a bit more time, but this is the link.

 

[Kinzer]

For some reason, the music made me think Sonic was Mexican.

I like that actually, Sonic with a sombraro (sp?), and the video wasn't so bad either.

 

[aeghrur]

That was steak Kojin. The way you used Upsmash is certainly interesting, especially that standing one, lol. Also, I like how you spammed SH AD, lol. xD Only thing is it's only against CNOTE though. =/ I understand that Ness has a great aerial game, but you should've added in some MK.
Lol, then people will be like, :O USMASH WORKS ON MK? if it works, lol.

 

[Camalange]

Nice, I also found this match of you Kojin agaisnt a Peach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9byfUYupqQ

Very well played. Main reason why I'm posting this though is that it shows great usage of Usmash against Peach who is a very intimidating aerial character (especially for Sonic)

 

[da K.I.D.]

I think me and DJB should make a joint collaborative combo video, and at least 3 minutes of the entire video is gonna be sonic CGing ness and MK

 

[JMan8891]

You raise a good point Tenki. But when going for the invincy frames... you tend to connect with that first hit.

Like... when i always contest DK's full paunch!, im rising above/invicy frames throgh the hit, his super armor absorbs the first hit or two... subsequent hits punish

 

[Browny]

I think me and DJB should make a joint collaborative combo video, and at least 3 minutes of the entire video is gonna be sonic CGing ness and MK

Well i already made half of that vid with ness

 

[jamzthehedgehog]

cool, nice thread Kojin! i like how u put peoples sonic styles into groups, i would say im da ground, grappler and air type sonic coz i change between these 3 types depending on my opponents and the situation.

hey listen, i wanted u to check out a technique i've been doin wit sonic recently, i wouldnt bother put it up if i knew it was impossible but when i train wit my friends i do it quite alot an it works surprisingly well. sonic's forward throw; i've got into this habbit of using it an then instantly running forward an pivot grabbin the opponent straight after. it works so well its stupid. i can do a lil chain grab up to about 3 - 4 times b4 da opponent relizes that he/she can jus attack or jump out of it. if they attack i can still use ur spin dash cancel mindgame provoke grab thingy to grab again. i've improved on my grab technique by doin the chain grab twice (some times 3 times) an then using da down throw on da 3rd/4th grab so i can chase an mix up my possibilities. i will post a vid on youtube soon of me preforming this cool grab (it also looks falshy, simular to falco's pivot chain grab) i 've already got u as a friend on youtube but jus to remind u its Jamzthehedgehog. plz try it out someday (or watch da vid when i upload it) and let me know wot u think. Thanko :D

 

[JayBee]

I think me and DJB should make a joint collaborative combo video, and at least 3 minutes of the entire video is gonna be sonic CGing ness and MK

is that a shot at me and how the new vid only has ness in it, or are you serious?
i guess i should stand up for my freinds, CNOTE is not a bad player, its just that Im a better player. This is how I usually find out if stuff works: by playing CNOTE usually. And since he's played my sonic since the game came out, if it works on him, it'll work on just about anybody, give or take. besides, you know i only show clips of steak, so of coarse he's gonna look bad at times. i mindgame the **** outta him sometimes... like the isdr on yoshis thing. I told him about it, but that's the first time i did it to him so I KNOW it works now.

and i dotn chaingrab Ness for some reason, even when i know i can. but in freindlies, when im trying other things, i dont think about it.

oh, i recognize the name, Jamz. welcolme to the Lab. just show a vid of what you want to talk about, and then the sonic boards can discuss it. but that looks interesting. I'll give it a go later.


EDIT: I've been thinking, would you like to see older vids redone? i wonder, I was thinking of doing a "Shatter the Grounds" remix or something of that nature. same idea, just presented differently or with more steak. something to think about...

 

[da K.I.D.]

my comment was only a shot at the fact that with the exception of me and DJB, NOBODY does it...

there are sonic v. ness vids everywhere.

but none of those sonics use the CG.

and its starting to get annoying watching that match go down and never seeing sonic used to the max potential in the situation

 

[Tenki]

my comment was only a shot at the fact that with the exception of me and DJB, NOBODY does it...

there are sonic v. ness vids everywhere.

but none of those sonics use the CG.

and its starting to get annoying watching that match go down and never seeing sonic used to the max potential in the situation

lol someone actually cp'd Ness AND FD on me, even though he probably might have given me more trouble if he had stayed ROB.

I used it <3

 

[JayBee]

I promise the next match i record with sonic vs ness, i will do the CG. btw, this should make Sonic a counter to Ness IMO. because if a sonic was gay, wed do this all day until they air release, and that is still a combo in waiting.

 

[Tenki]

If you wanted to be cruel, you'd pummel release off the edge. ;/

 

[JayBee]

lol. i seriously am confounded as to why i don't do this...

 

[jamzthehedgehog]

thanko i'll get a vid up asap

 

[Tenki]

lol. i seriously am confounded as to why i don't do this...

You should, lol.

Pummel releasing off the edge puts alot of characters into awkward situations, if not just plain traps.

Like say you're playing a fastpaced match and you pummel release a Fox. The first thing he might do is double jump back on stage. If you grab him out of double jump and re-pummel release ( actually, air release might be even more cruel for spacies ) then you force him to up-B, and I'll leave to your imagination what nastiness can happen to Fox if he has to up-B from below/away from the stage.

The second case, which I'll call the "wifi case" is that the player being released is continually spamming buttons, and the game reads an airdodge or an attack. Fastfallers get ***** by this as they compromise their chances to live by not double jumping or stopping their momentum.

In all honesty, some of their better choices would be
1) DJ airdodging onto the stage (if predicted, still punishable)
2) DJ backwards > side-B on stage/ledge (still, forced recovery)

The point is that grabrelease off the edge can really be mean to people.
-------------



However, running off-stage and F-airing apparently misses Ness if he does the backflip double jump, lol.

 

[da K.I.D.]

you can air release him into another grab and every airial sonic has.

i.e. ground CG across the stage and at the end air release into b air.

 

[Espy Rose]

For some reason, the music made me think Sonic was Mexican.

I like that actually, Sonic with a sombraro (sp?), and the video wasn't so bad either.

1. Sombrero
2. LOOK...AT...MY...AVATAR...

I've been saying for quite awhile that Sonic looks amazing in a sombrero.

-----

Adding this to the WSC the moment Xiivi stops being a lazy fat punk and helps fix the WSC themselves.

 

[JayBee]

wow. how come i never paid attention to this.
looks like I needs mor ASC...
STRAAAANGE, ISN'T IT?

 

[aeghrur]

wow. how come i never paid attention to this.
looks like I needs mor ASC...
STRAAAANGE, ISN'T IT?

Not really.
To give a bit of critique(although maybe bad), in your matches against peach, you don't seem to be that comfortable with Bair. =/ You used it semi-often, but you hardly hit with it. =/ Bair is a great spacing tool man, and it's really nice if you use it like Espy and buffer a run after it. Maybe try to implement that? Although, I love your usage of uair+upsmash in the peach matches. xD

 

[Chis]

Up smash is not good against Peach :/

 

[JayBee]

While Up smash should never be relied on to beat out moves, it is still good as a punishment tool. in the case of characters like peach, who abuse aerials and in her case the float stance, you can anticipate certain movements that indicate she is going to go in the air, especially when they get predictable. If I am doing my job to be unpredictable in my approach, and peach defensively trying to space herself in case i randomly run at her, then I can put a few of these in to hit her. it works as a mindgame against her because well, she can't do anything but either attack or airdodge from a float, meaning blocking it is very unlikely. Also, its easier to space it when they are playing more defensive, like this one. it works Chis, you may need to work on spacing more to get it that level, but its possible. i do it.

Now, i try not to spam it. that's dumb. i only do it as a "I caught you off gaurds cause you weren't expecting it" thing. and as an occasional "Ima hyphen smash as you get back on the stage" thing

@aeghrur: ive noticed this for a while. i think it's because i've concentrated on my upair/uptilt/upsmash/ followup/ wakeup game so much that it fell a bit. 've been working on so many other areas at once yknow. its funny, but youre the first person to notice that. I want it to be like Espy's so I will go look at more vids from him tonight.
------------------
awesome friendlies to look at:

Kojin (Sonic) vs Bolt (Diddy)
Kojin (Sonic) vs Bolt (Diddy) 2'

something to critique/ keep you busy for now. enjoy. steak.

 

[Kinzer]

Up smash is not good against Peach :/

Hyphen USmash/DACUS is much better IMO.

 

[JayBee]

yeah, that's what i meant. it can catch them off gaurd chis. believe it. dattebayo. ...
...
wut?

 

[JMan8891]

Naruto!!!!!!!

That was win-sauc3 Kojin, xD

Now show me... true despair!

 

[JayBee]

lol you've got to be kidding me...

 

[JayBee]

I am happy to be getting positive feedback from KojinSagara Productions as of late. It has become a part of my life that I'd like to keep growing into other things. It is apparent to me from the mails ive gotten that there are a large number of Sonic players in this country that either do not read much on smashboards for information, or are heavy visual learners. In that case I'm going to do what I can to make my tutorials as easy to understand as I can, while still giving the advanced smashers something to wow at. that actually isn't an easy task.

I actually worry sometimes about the content of the videos I sent. I felt like I couldv'e done better, or the quality isn't good enough, even though i had to sacrifice that in order to get it on youtube (lol johns) but every time I positive feedback. Only today has this personal project seemed to have a potential to do something bigger. I'm going to try to do that over the length of this year. I hope to have more money for better equippment, more outlets for my material, and more personel that I can count on. this is gonna be hard as hell, but I think it is worth it.

I'm working on another vid but this one I'm taking my time on, so you may see a few short vids every once in a while, but other than that nothing major. I also plan to talk to some people and see if I can get my name on some of these places, as well as get some volunteers for music, video, etc... If you are interested in volunteering:

artwork
video
originally composed music

or anything else, please PM me on smashboards, or Youtube. you can post here too, if you want. I only want your help if you can promise to deliver, otherwise there is no point. and of coarse your work will be credited. My goal is to make KojinSagara Productions belong to 'us' the smash community, the gaming community. so lets make this work. im counting on you guys especially, sonic boards.

 

[Chis]

I don't know if this has been done before, but I have had a ball with Brawl+, and the game actually has balance. There are wide shifts in certain characters, some not as obvious as Captain Falcon and Sheik.

This list was composed using the Brawl+ codes from Almas' thread.
Clicky.


This a beta Tier list, a basic sum up at first several glances at the Characters.


High
Marth
ROB
Pikachu
Pit
Sonic
Sheik
Peach


Sonic+ is like Melee Fox without a shine, laser and ****** up smash. His speed makes for him to come up with custom combos really easily, and he will be everywhere, giving him a heavy pressure game, he now has frame traps with his jab too. Aerial mobility does good for him, now he really deserves his title as fastest character, and he does not put it to waste. The only noticeable problem, his spindash can't follow up into alot of other moves anymore.

This was interesting.

 

[Espy Rose]

I was playing a Snake CPU lv 9 in Brawl plus 3.3...

Sonic's aerial mobility is AMAZING, but his spin dash game is nonexistant anymore, since the aerial momentum is passed when he SDJs. You'll be lucky to even get the SDJ to hit now...

However, I did a lol on Snake...

Uthrow chaingrab to 60% -> sh bair (front hitbox) -> nair -> nair -> bair.

108% and off of the level...

I'll upload the lol-combo shortly...