Kojin's Sonic Tech Lab *taking another look at Speed's Sonic*

[Chis]

I've heard of No.1 but I'll try the other three later. Good to see this up and running again.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I thought most of that was well known. 3 is new to me though. I can't think of any ways to apply it just yet though.....

 

[Camalange]

1 and 3 are new to me *follows trend of everyone proclaiming what they already knew* so I'll give those a look see.

Also, while we're looking into this, if you haven't already, take a look at the General/Social thread or the Glitch thread to discuss Sonic's JCT options with bananas, or "Camaldashing" as Kinzer dubbed it...lol

So far Terry is the only one brainstorming with meh :/

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Only cause it's all I can do at this point lol. ROBs are gonna hate us too. =P

 

[Camalange]

Only cause it's all I can do at this point lol. ROBs are gonna hate us too. =P

Especially since we also have 3 different ways to setup a jablock...lol

 

[JayBee]

what you talkin about cam?

 

[Tenki]

2. tilting th econtrol stick during side B not only affects your hop, but also effects the way you drop off an edge/platform. in particular note is if hold back during the hop until right before you touch ground. when you SDR off a platform, you will drop completely vertical, with no horizontal momentum, at least until to tilt the control stick again. i havent fully thought of possibiliites yet, so discuss.

Ohhhh cool.

I've noticed the thing with #2 happening before, but I didn't realize the reason until now. Previously, we had attributed that to spindashing on a platform, but it actually seems more like aerial momentum gets 'saved' O_o; try it with ASC too lol.

However, reversing your ASD/ASC (say, you're doing it from spring height) doesn't do anything too cool. >_>; I guess it takes the absolute value of your aerial momentum and applies it to you next time you go into the air.

3. a wierd glitch in Frigate involving the spin dash. For some reason, if the stage transitions during the turnaround animation of spin dash, if sonic is caught in mid air after the flip, the SDR becomes an stationary ASC that hovers in place until the spin eventually wears off.
i pulled it off once today, so test it and discuss. i don't know any additional properties that occur during this glitch.

lol weird. it also reverses your SDR if you're in SDR during the switch, or something like that, if I remember correctly.

4. Upsmash/Downsmash cancel: on Green Greens, you can cancel these moves when sonic is on non explosive desructable item. that's right, you guessed it. stand on a yellow block, and dsmash. the block is destroyed, and with no ground, sonic goes into falling stance, and the smash is cancelled completely. what nice about this is that due to the movement of Dsmash on the first hit, you get tossed forward, and you can use that movement to your advantage to do an attack, grab, aerial, or whatever, as you quickly reach the ground.

Also sometimes works on Brinstar blocks, but it's less consistent, unless you're at the bottom row already x.x;

 

[Tesh]

Does the hovering ASC have a normal hitbox? If so, what actually happens if someone is dumb enough to jump in/get thrown in? Could they get hit multiple times like a "black hole" since the knockback is based on how fast you are going and you aren't moving?

 

[JayBee]

i have no clue about that. i hate myself for not having any way to record it. it makes snece that the hitbox would be there. i think the various momentium changes to create the scenarios created a situation where the ASC was changed to one with no movement horizontally or vertically O.o


someome plz try to replicate this. it really sounds like im makin this up, but im not.

 

[Tenki]

I haven't seen it yet but it sounds similar to how some 'airdash' / iSDR's get stuck on the edge, like in pictochat or going right on the trees in PS1.

 

[~TBS~]

Welcome back Kojin. I hoped to meet you at Chu datz dojo, though. oh, and thanks for the Sonic Rush Adventure song in the chat.

Good stuff on finding out some useful things. #2 and 3 confuses me though Can someone give me a more through explanation?

oh and one last thing, are we still evaluating styles?

 

[Camalange]

what you talkin about cam?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk5Cion1bA8

Watch and learn baby.

I thought we discussed this before, but just to bring it back up...ROB's FSJ animation is different from every other characters, and for whatever reason allows Sonic to setup a jablock from around 0-50% from a FSJ. You can set it up with either

ASC > FSJ

SideB Hop > FSJ

Rolling Spindash > SDJ > FSJ

 

[Blapius]

Bowser's FSJ animation is pretty odd as well. Does this work on him, too?

 

[da K.I.D.]

yes i tried it with all the really fat/wide characters when i heard about the rob thing and you can to it to bowser too. you can also do it to DDD but its stupid hard.

 

[Chis]

Perhaps this is something we should look into? Like make a list with percentages and stuff.

 

[Isatis]

With D3 on Battlefield I could only get it to spike at 37% or higher, DI or not.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Welcome back Kojin. I hoped to meet you at Chu datz dojo, though. oh, and thanks for the Sonic Rush Adventure song in the chat.

Good stuff on finding out some useful things. #2 and 3 confuses me though Can someone give me a more through explanation?

oh and one last thing, are we still evaluating styles?

I doubt styles are being evaluated at the moment. I asked for mine to be looked at, maybe another time?

 

[JayBee]

when i get time to sit down and watch vids, i'll do styles BT. im just more focused on my other work, and analysis takes a good amount of time, as i don't like to half *** this part of my thread.

someone can come up with a list for the footstool things. As for the things i wanted to discuss, I really want to get some sort of video up for them, so be on the lookout for that.

 

[JayBee]

hello? anyone got anything about the points i have discussed? anyone got anything to add? we need input guys.


@SM5: for number2, all oyu have to do is, during the hop of side B, hold the control stick back until you reach the floor, but not so that you will turnaround. in other words, until a moment before you tocuh gorund into SDR. let the spin go off a platform, and the spin dash will simply roll off the platform/edge and drop as a vertical ASC.

what i thought of was this, if someone likes to plank the edge, you can use this to roll off the edge, then attack them out of ASC, but i havent tested this enough yet.

for 3: all oyu need to is be in the turn around animation when the stage flips in frigate. that's all. something wierd should happen...

 

[Kinzer]

I already told you my stuff about the destructible objects.

I really avoid commenting on stuff I don't know, I would much rather have correct information stored in one place and have it hard to find than have false information spreading like a wildfire.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a lazy bum but please understand it would be better for all of us if we are sure of what is, not what could be or what isn't.

 

[JayBee]

here's the thing though: people can test this out themselves and should do so, this not only gets the player to see the tech themselves, but allows them to have a better understanding when they say the idea is legit or not, or even find uses for it. beacause im not always gonna be right about it. when someone posts an idea in the Lab, and we dont understand parts of it, but no one looks at it furthur and tests it, it kinda delays the purpose of the thread.

since i dont have acces to video recording equippment at my liesure, I can't prove them with video unless i borrow them from friends. that's why i'd like to hear feedback from players who are testing them out, it helps to verify or disprove theories.

 

[~TBS~]

hello? anyone got anything about the points i have discussed? anyone got anything to add? we need input guys.


@SM5: for number2, all oyu have to do is, during the hop of side B, hold the control stick back until you reach the floor, but not so that you will turnaround. in other words, until a moment before you tocuh gorund into SDR. let the spin go off a platform, and the spin dash will simply roll off the platform/edge and drop as a vertical ASC.

what i thought of was this, if someone likes to plank the edge, you can use this to roll off the edge, then attack them out of ASC, but i havent tested this enough yet.

for 3: all oyu need to is be in the turn around animation when the stage flips in frigate. that's all. something wierd should happen...

Well, i experimented. (woot! my first time explaining! hope this is right...)

OK, for Kojin Test #2
i tried this on BF, one on the stage platforms, and one going OFF the stage while standing close to the edge. For the part standing on the platform, i did exactly what you said. I side B'd, and either 2 things would happen. The opponent would take 5% damage from me in the air, then another hit when Sonic touched the ground, and get hit upwards. Or the hitbox would disappear entirely. It seems that when Sonic was directly underneath the opponent, or if they were in contact with Sonic diagonally to the right, they would get hit. (i know it sounds confusing, i cant word it any better than this...or i am doing it wrong with the side B)

When i tried it offstage, this was hard timing it. It required that you time the Side B so that you will be on top of the opponent, as mentioned above. If this was off by the slightest bit, the roll would miss, and you are then open to an attack.

Kojin Test #3
Frigate was kinda weird, just as you said. When the stage transitioned, Sonic went into this weird ASC from his side B...And it can only hit once. What can we get from this?

And did i do it right Kojin?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well, i experimented. (woot! my first time explaining! hope this is right...)

Alright. SonicMaster. Let me cut you off there.



I don't want to say anything. It just makes me lol.

 

[JMan8891]

Alright. SonicMaster. Let me cut you off there.



I don't want to say anything. It just makes me lol.

^ This

10lulz

 

[~TBS~]

Alright. SonicMaster. Let me cut you off there.



I don't want to say anything. It just makes me lol.

Well Terios, I just wanted to make sure that my info was accurate...I didnt want to put up things that are wrong. How does this sound to you guys anyway? Unless i am doing it wrong, #2 sounds pretty hard. And #3 is just plain lulzy.

Why is it that you guys lol at my nervousness?

 

[Tenki]

I don't know/care if I said this previously, but it seems like the ASC only continues your previous aerial speed (either from side-B hop or from an ASC).

So if you do a high ASC/side-B and pull back to 0 horizontal speed, then when you roll off a platform you'll have 0 horizontal speed. If you do a high ASC/side-B and go to negative horizontal velocity (backwards), when you roll off a platform you'll have same velocity (but moving forward). Absolute values.

yeah, something like that.

Also, ASC's (remember, rolling off platforms goes to ASC) hitbox damage/existence is almost solely based on your horizontal speed, so if you do a vertical drop, you won't have a hitbox.

It's too bad you can't make it "save" a negative/backwards-moving ASC. That would have been totally badass.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well Terios, I just wanted to make sure that my info was accurate...I didnt want to put up things that are wrong. How does this sound to you guys anyway? Unless i am doing it wrong, #2 sounds pretty hard. And #3 is just plain lulzy.

Why is it that you guys lol at my nervousness?

It wasn't at your nervousness. Take this out of context.


Well, i experimented. (woot! my first time explaining! hope this is right...)

<3 SonicMaster.


Also I can't really comment as I'd have to test myself to see if it looks right.

 

[JayBee]

i finally got vids. just to let you know. ill be on the xat channel with uplaoded vids because i dont know how is who in some of them. steak.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Heil Kojin, the creator of many Sonic combo vids.

 

[JayBee]

lol at you.

?

"heil"?

 

[Camalange]

Oh, I'm glad you found the SD card Kojin. These are from Apex right? Imma be in it XD

A little bit anyway

 

[JayBee]

I'll do my best.

 

[JayBee]

Just discovered a new AT: John-dashing. Works like wave-dashing except it is a continuous stream of Johns that propel you across the stage.

John-dashing into losing to a Sonic is a true combo.

Sonic is Mid-Tier!

Sonic just gave the middle finger.

sexy steak up 9 spots.
sonic mains really got their **** toghether

I am now going back to sonic

woooo

Malcolm plays wario...wario up 5.

Malcolm plays sonic...sonic up 8.

Im golden.

just a few quotes from the new tier list thread.

As you can see and from what you have heard, there have been much to say on sonic's rise on the tier list. was it too much? does sonic deserve to be in C tier? this summer should have an impact on whether or not this can be maintained. this is probably as far as sonic is gonna go IMO...

In anycase, go on and discuss sonic's positons, why you think he is there, and what needs to be done to keep him there, or what needs to be done to show where he really belongs on the list. is there room for improvement in the metagame even after over a year of hard work? opinions please.

I also have vids on my DDP and other things. discuss those as well. Steak.

Kojin demonstrates Dash Dance Pivot with Sonic
Dash Dance Pivot into spindash cancel

also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wk443fuC0U

 

[Kinzer]

You should also see the biased opinions Kojin, there are still people who don't want to recognize, but hey it's all good, we can just enjoy this while it lasts.

ANYWAY IMO of course I'm gonna say Sonic still needs to be higher. As for how I'm gonna prove that... well I should be able to go to many more tourneys over the Summer, I can only hope I can keep this consistency. Although I alone can't do it, and nobody else can unless your Reflex, so that also means that tin order to just maintain this spot, we will have to keep going at this pace. Metagame doesn't have to develop so long as other characters don't find anything else to work with/don't get represented; The former is more likely to happen though, people will still main who they main if they are worth anything in the community (A.K.A. not tier-w****s). There might still be some metagame development left though, can't say for sure that there isn't much left to find until it is found.

...Even though I think he still needs to be up a whee bit, sadly that might not happen... I just have a bad feeling that Sonic might drop, or at best keep his spot... and for other reasons (TBD). For now though, we've done work, and I can't see why we can't keep this pace up... less people want him to drop... but again it can be done if you put your heart into it, as we've just seen.

...As for DDP... I still like how Brawl is suppose to be a dumbed-down version of Melee... although I guess I can seriously try ti pick this kind of stuff up when I'm at this guy's house for a smashfest... *ugh* somehow I am uneasy that I might have to actually have somebody go over this with me in-person before I can pick up on it, but again it doesn't mean I can't try.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

If Sonic moves up anymore it'll be by one spot and only because Fox drops. He's EXACTLY where I thought he should be since the games release so I'm happy with that.


Bad news is I need a SOLID Low Tier secondary for those tourneys. I play Random a lot so I've got some choices. My Lucas isn't TERRIBLE but I think I'm gonna go with PT, Falcon or Mario.

 

[Camalange]

Picking up a new Low Tier main is my biggest concern >_>

I dun wanna...lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

Why are people making such a fuss about low tier tourneys?

1. None of you play in low tier tourneys
2. None of you win low tier tourneys
3. Nobodys demanding that you enter a low tier tourney at every (or any) tournament you go to.
4. Nobody cares about low tier tourneys to begin with.
5. Winning a low tier tourney means nothing. Its not supposed to be srs biznis. Its supposed to be a meaningless tourney where everyone is allowed to have fun and doesnt have to worry about being gayed by a broken character

 

[Zephil]

OMG this is the best thing of the new tier list!! I am happy because my main is 3 places higher but I am happier for Sonic! Is soo deserved his new place in the tier... I was tired that the people didn´t believe when I told them that Sonic is not low tier. Sonic has always been a great character, even his low priority is no problem with the rest of good aspects Sonic has. I remember that in a discussion of the matchup of MK vs Sonic, M2K said that he was not interested in low tiers matchup, take that M2K now you have to worry!! :D

Congratulations to all Sonic mains and the rest of the Steak Alliance xD Enjoy it, you people deserve it

P.S. The reason why I am so happy is because Sonic is one of my secondaries and so fun to use... all hail the Steak!!

 

[Camalange]

I play Low Tier tournies, lol.

I just lose to Snakeee in the 5th match of semi-finals who randomly shows up in Scranton.

>_>

Not that big a deal, but it's fun XD

 

[Kinzer]

Why are people making such a fuss about low tier tourneys?

1. None of you play in low tier tourneys
2. None of you win low tier tourneys
3. Nobodys demanding that you enter a low tier tourney at every (or any) tournament you go to.
4. Nobody cares about low tier tourneys to begin with.
5. Winning a low tier tourney means nothing. Its not supposed to be srs biznis. Its supposed to be a meaningless tourney where everyone is allowed to have fun and doesnt have to worry about being gayed by a broken character

It's basically free money to anybody who could win those low-tier tourneys, since Sonic seems/seemed to be the best choice.

I honestly don't care, I have no problem since I already used Ike.