Kish Character Impressions 2/9/08 Tournament

[DstyCube]

!! That match didn't count. I told ether I was gonna beat him blindfolded!! I kept closing ym eyes!!! hahahahah

I'll make new yoshi vids tomorrow for ya ^_~

Awesome. Definately need some more Yoshi vids.

Yoshi – We don't like him.

No idea what to think yet

I respect you for your honesty.

 

[Trespayne]

Nice list Kish, nice to see a variety of people's impressions of the game. Obviously people are going to disagree, even with the melee teir list, some people disagree with certain parts of it. It's always going to happen, especially this early...

Dmbrandon, you need to chill out, people are going to disagree with other people, the game has been out for a couple weeks, it's all speculation right now. Getting different impressions from different respected people is informative. Also, stop using "$50 MM" to prove your point. I have seen you use that as a means to prove your right at least 4 different times. I appreciate your list as well, and will take all the information I read about with a grain of salt until I get the game myself.

 

[dmbrandon]

Nice list Kish, nice to see a variety of people's impressions of the game. Obviously people are going to disagree, even with the melee teir list, some people disagree with certain parts of it. It's always going to happen, especially this early...

Dmbrandon, you need to chill out, people are going to disagree with other people, the game has been out for a couple weeks, it's all speculation right now. Getting different impressions from different respected people is informative. Also, stop using "$50 MM" to prove your point. I have seen you use that as a means to prove your right at least 4 different times. I appreciate your list as well, and will take all the information I read about with a grain of salt until I get the game myself.

I don't wanna seem like a jerk, but you do notice the people who disagree won't bet. I'm not overly great, but I know the difference.

Thanks for the support, as well. Only a month left! :D

 

[Trespayne]

I know, and you seem like one of the better players I have seen so far, but it's still just using it at as a means to make a point, which you don't need to do, if they don't believe you about something it's just because they heard something different somewhere else. This early lots of people have different opinions.

And yeah, another month until I start failing out of college, can't wait. I hope brawl is 75% as good as melee.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

Here is what it boils down to:

Fighting games NEED some technicality to them, otherwise they are boring as ****. Certain aspects of controlling the character and/or performing certain attacks or maneuvers need to have a level of difficulty, otherwise there is no need for "mastery."

You have 2 games. One is Guilty Gear, an extremely technical fighter with all sorts of crazy ****, and Chess. In Chess, all you need is strategy. You aren't rewarded with bonuses for moving your pieces extremely well. However, in Guilty Gear, pulling off something technically difficult may yield huge results.

That's how fighting games should be. It is about 1.) rewarding your ability to strategize and 2.) rewarding your ability to control your character. Otherwise you are just playing Chess, which is the opposite of action packed.

You could make the argument that the pushing of "l" in order to cancel lag is arbitrary, but it rewarded the person who executed it properly, and punished those that didn't, forcing a person to master it in order to compete.

Melee was already really ****ing simple, even with AT's. You didn't even need to be overtly technical to win, but it certainly helped amd opened up a **** ton of possibilities.

The fact of the matter is, if you overly simplify a game you are going to make it a lot less action packed, a lot less reliant on ability and more on strategy.

It will be unfortunate if Brawl has a lot less depth than Melee, which seemed to have the perfect amount, with some balancing issues. I enjoy strategy and ****, but I also enjoy the feeling of executing something perfectly and hearing people screaming, "Holy ****ing ****!"

I've never seen someone yell that during a chess match, and it would be a shame if this was yelled during a Brawl match because someone landed a 3 hit combo.

Of course, I haven't actually PLAYED Brawl, but I have talked to a **** load of people, and I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to Melee (and what makes Melee fun as balls). But I do know what makes something deep, and what doesn't make it deep. And REMOVING things generally tends to remove depth UNLESS something else is implemented, and we have yet to see this new mechanic.

I'm looking at you Warrock. T_T

I don't really want to turn this into a 'lol l-cancel' debate, and I do agree with your philosophy of tech skill + strategy = win. I disagree with your example though. Guilty Gear tech skill is all about increasing your options, for example spending tension. You start out inefficiently with supers, which are risky, and move onto FRCs which are harder but more efficient. GG is actually really clever in the way a lot of the characters become increase in options as you 'unlock' them, increasing your versatility, mind games etc.
L-cancel though, in Melee is something that, once you get down you do every time. Nothing wrong with that, it's a linear gauge to technical skill, but there is never a situation where you shouldn't l-cancel and do something else instead. The new Brawl system gives rise to some airs that are safe on land and others that are very risky or designed for air to air or are better in different parts of the jump. I honestly think they haven't done a bad job, though I've only had one session with the game so far.

Nevertheless I fear for Brawl the same reason as you do, but there is another game out there which much less technical skill that thrives to this day, and that is SF2ST. The game is much less tech skill and more strategy as posturing and position become far more important, a fighter more like chess is not all bad.

 

[mindlesstom]

I don't really want to turn this into a 'lol l-cancel' debate, and I do agree with your philosophy of tech skill + strategy = win. I disagree with your example though. Guilty Gear tech skill is all about increasing your options, for example spending tension. You start out inefficiently with supers, which are risky, and move onto FRCs which are harder but more efficient. GG is actually really clever in the way a lot of the characters become increase in options as you 'unlock' them, increasing your versatility, mind games etc.
L-cancel though, in Melee is something that, once you get down you do every time. Nothing wrong with that, it's a linear gauge to technical skill, but there is never a situation where you shouldn't l-cancel and do something else instead. The new Brawl system gives rise to some airs that are safe on land and others that are very risky or designed for air to air or are better in different parts of the jump. I honestly think they haven't done a bad job, though I've only had one session with the game so far.

Nevertheless I fear for Brawl the same reason as you do, but there is another game out there which much less technical skill that thrives to this day, and that is SF2ST. The game is much less tech skill and more strategy as posturing and position become far more important, a fighter more like chess is not all bad.

I love when people try to use other games as a stepping stool, and then get blindsided by people who know ****. I applaud this post. gg, sir.

 

[xS A M U R A Ix]

I'm pretty disappointed with Marth / Fox being at the top but I think that has a lot to do with people already being familiar with those characters and skills transferring from one game to the next. I doubt anyone thought Slayer was any good in guilty gear when it first came out but then people discovered bite infinites that lead into instant kills and suddenly he's S tier. Then they change him in Acccent Core and initial impressions are "man he sucks, he's just not the same".

Guess where he's at in the tiers now after a year of playing the game.

Right back at S.

Just give Brawl some time people. Tiers at this point are silly.

 

[Zant3tsuken]

I love when people try to use other games as a stepping stool, and then get blindsided by people who know ****. I applaud this post. gg, sir.

I wish more people would have experience with other fighting games, even pros. It would make peoples opinions on their anticipation of the game a lot more interesting, and might give a bit more perspective on this tourney *** vs casual crap.

To be fair, I was more addressing a philosophical difference between the games rather than arguing with the point he was making.

 

[HugS]

You know, not to flame, but they host, but never get close to winning. (Sorry, I had to make that point) Whereas I've won almost every match I've played, even when I play random.

The fact is, your claim to fame is a mewtwo that has been overshadowed for years now. Don't bring my character into play. If you're going to try to start a flame war, do it on aim, or PM. And I'm also hosting Brawl tourns regularly, with decent amount of KNOWLEDGEABLE players attending.

Woah woah woah, Hold on. Are you serious?

I do this about once every 2 years when someone really deserves it...

But you, my friend, get the first "Who the **** are you?" of 2008.

 

[DrewB008]

i love how you built it up hugs, the execution was flawless.

also sliqs earlier post summed up how i feel about it pretty accurately. while jiano juke and i were playing, we felt that while you could outspace someone or occasionally even trick them into doing something, the most impressive things we would ever do would be considered the norm in melee, such as a 2-3 hit combo.

 

[MookieRah]

I don't wanna seem like a jerk, but you do notice the people who disagree won't bet. I'm not overly great, but I know the difference.

Funny, I disagreed with your list and I wasn't challenged :-P.

But you, my friend, get the first "Who the **** are you?" of 2008.

That is EXACTLY what I was saying a few pages back.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

His priority doesn't seem THAT terrible. I think it comes down to timing. I've seen a Sonic out prioritize Mk's and TL's.

Personally, the main problem I'm seeing with the guy is range =/

Now that I think about it, that might be right. There's been several times where I pulled a smash and it missed where a similiar character would've gotten a hit. (like Shiek or ZSS) Sonic's ridiculous speed make timing difficult but in a few years it just might work. I know it's an item case but look at lv9 Super Sonic. His speed and precision is completely brutal.

This might be late and I'm still a nobody in these boards but I disagree with the chess comparison. Maybe I'm more strategy minded like Kish, but there IS a benefit to playing well--your foe has less options to counter you. Indeed Melee may have Brawl trumped in a purely technical standpoint, but I don't think its necessary for it to be competitive--all competition is established mentally. Even if you pull those flashy button moves (and I realize they are more than that, but they are once again, only impressive in the eye of the beholder.), nothing beats out pure strategy. I may be some weird *** fool but I was more impressed with a Sonic/Toon Link match where Sonic improvised by smacking TL with his spring than I was with a similar Melee Fox match that involved huge *** combos.

 

[DrewB008]

priority is determined by range and timing, so if a character has bad range they cant really have good priority.

 

[Zig-Zag!]

who is kish????

 

[SynikaL]

Well, since the thread is going in this direction anyway...

This game is definitely going to create clear dichotomies within the community. Those players that enjoyed Melee because they're true fans of the game's concept will love Brawl regardless of whatever form it takes competitively. Those players that loved Melee simply because it was a great, fast and technical fighting game (such as myself), will likely be disappointed with it. Unfortunately, it's going to be the latter half of that division that gets the shaft because of Brawl's existence.

There's definitely merit in saying a fighting game should require a certain level of dexterity to be considered competitively viable (read: sports), but the sentiments hosting notions of the exact opposite are just as viable (read: chess). I was hoping for somewhat of a reconciling or clever amalgamation of the dichotomy with Brawl, but it really seems mostly geared towards the second half. As such, a person with my taste finds the game quite boring to both play and watch -- Brawl is a video game after all, a form of entertainment first and foremost.

I'm praying for the possibility of Melee's continued growth even after Brawl's release, though I know that is unlikely due to the influx of new players that will be supporting Brawl -- it's these players that create the bulk of tournament numbers and revenue. Outside this, there's no real reason the two games cannot co-exist and grow together -- as we've established they are two very different games. This optimistic concept of co-existential growth is ultimately up to the community to make a reality. 2D Fighting game communities do this with their games, so I don't see why we can't do the same with the Smash franchise -- there's only three of them in comparison.


I've been thinking about making a thread for that last paragraph in the Tournament boards.


-Kimosabae

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

^You should go on and do that. I won't stop you at all, and even feel it's a good idea. Melee is a technical game, Brawl is more of a thinking man's game. I like the thinking game more, you like the technical one more.

As a matter of fact, I went back to Melee after a long Brawl session and both games really do feel completely different. Melee was all reaction and fighting quickly, with Brawl you need to think two steps ahead in not just strategy but some characters PERIOD (Snake).

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Thanks for the impressions, but why does everyone hate on Yoshi, Wario, and DK?

 

[KishSquared]

Synikal, the only reason we can't do it with Smash is because our tournaments take 10 hours. Seriously, most other games finish in two. Many would love it and still play 64 if we ran tournaments alongside Melee. There just isn't time. Especially with the longer length of Brawl matches...

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

Marth is nearly broken. He pretty much got better in Brawl. Seeing how Marth was already a top tier character... this can't be good for the rest of the cast.

His uair and bair are kill moves now. His upB out of shield is even more powerful especially since there's no more l-canceling, so if you get shielded against him while using a semi-laggy move, you're pretty much gonna get hit by it. His recovery is better now. He's one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Still one of the best ranges in the game. Can space the crap out of pretty much the entire cast. Fast moves that barely have any lag on most of them. Also with the "diminishing effect" where moves become a lot weaker over time helps Marth even more. With most decent characters have 2-3 spammable/decent moves, Marth has about 8. Which means this doesn't effect Marth too greatly when all his aerials are very good.

He pretty much is melee marth minus the advanced techniques plus power. And everyone is minus advanced techniques and... minus power/speed and everything. I see Marths dominating the scene for at least half a year right now (if not forever).

 

[SynikaL]

Synikal, the only reason we can't do it with Smash is because our tournaments take 10 hours. Seriously, most other games finish in two. Many would love it and still play 64 if we ran tournaments alongside Melee. There just isn't time. Especially with the longer length of Brawl matches...

Argghhh!! I can't believe I didn't even think of that very obvious set back -- it's one of my biggest beefs with Brawl (I will likely never go to a Brawl tournament since I've been known to loathe the length of Melee tourneys despite my love for the game). God, I hate Brawl.

You just seriously broke my heart just now.



-Kimo
(not to mention my mojo)

 

[DrewB008]

not gonna name names or anything here, but just because melee had tech skill and combos does not mean it did not have a mental aspect. i definitely felt like i had to think harder playing melee than i do playing brawl, especially if i use marth in brawl cause he doesnt take any thinking at all, just space aerials. even characters like snake, while the explosives are really cool, theyre pretty easy to avoid no matter how well he uses them. snake gets his kills by, im quoting juke here "hitting A a lot when they get close". the lack of devastating combos and relative ease of recovery in brawl means you can get away with playing less smart.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

I think that's a good idea Syn, keep the Melee scene thriving for expatriates such as yourselves. It will prevent anyone from getting shafted and keep two good games going for a while to come.

 

[SynikaL]

At this point, Marth definitely feels close to overpowered. With the limited movement options present in Brawl, Marth benefits from being able to space Fair with even more ease and precision than he had in Melee because of the increased floatiness and air control present. Playing Ganon vs Marth feels hopeless if Marth is patient -- in Melee if I grabbed him, I could give Marth something to cry about. Not so in Brawl. Seriously, Fair alone makes Marth Top Tier at this point.


Funny, a Marth won our first tournament in FL too.

Kirby M.D.

As Squared points out, that optimistic vision of a competitive Smash utopia seems even more unlikely. Maybe we can find a way, however, to make sure Melee tournaments are run consistently.

-Kye

 

[Luteyi]

No offense to the topic starters or the people who post, but, I think its really sad when people make these threads that basically "tell" others who to play and who not to play based on tiers and opinions. People should discover things for themselves, not listen to some guy's "opinions" on the game. Honestly, these kinds of threads may cause people who have the potential to become wonderful with one character they love to switch and never discover what they could have become. Don't allow someone's silly impressions to prevent you from playing who you love.

 

[SynikaL]

No offense to the topic starters or the people who post, but, I think its really sad when people make these threads that basically "tell" others who to play and who not to play based on tiers and opinions. People should discover things for themselves, not listen to some guy's "opinions" on the game. Honestly, these kinds of threads may cause people who have the potential to become wonderful with one character they love to switch and never discover what they could have become. Don't allow someone's silly impressions to prevent you from playing who you love.

You're an idiot. Please stay far away from internet forums until you can make clear and necessary distinctions, please.


-Syn

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

You're an idiot. Please stay far away from internet forums until you can make clear and necessary distinctions, please.


-Syn

Ahh, the words taken straight from my mouth.

 

[Kel]

Here is what it boils down to:
Fighting games NEED some technicality to them, otherwise they are boring as ****.

said the jigglypuff player.

In b4 said the man with no chips.

 

[Luteyi]

You're an idiot. Please stay far away from internet forums until you can make clear and necessary distinctions, please.


-Syn

Its pretty clear for me, and I've found and example of game spot mentality right here Do us all a favor and return to the cesspool.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You aren't banned yet?

Smashboards is slacking off.

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

Its pretty clear for me, and I've found and example of game spot mentality right here Do us all a favor and return to the cesspool.

The topic creator is just creating an overall impression of the characters his group has played. He has done nothing to tell you who to play.

 

[Pikaville]

I hope they put in some sort of crippling weakness Marth has and we have yet to find it.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Marth is nearly broken. He pretty much got better in Brawl. Seeing how Marth was already a top tier character... this can't be good for the rest of the cast.

His uair and bair are kill moves now. His upB out of shield is even more powerful especially since there's no more l-canceling, so if you get shielded against him while using a semi-laggy move, you're pretty much gonna get hit by it. His recovery is better now. He's one of the best edgeguarders in the game. Still one of the best ranges in the game. Can space the crap out of pretty much the entire cast. Fast moves that barely have any lag on most of them. Also with the "diminishing effect" where moves become a lot weaker over time helps Marth even more. With most decent characters have 2-3 spammable/decent moves, Marth has about 8. Which means this doesn't effect Marth too greatly when all his aerials are very good.

He pretty much is melee marth minus the advanced techniques plus power. And everyone is minus advanced techniques and... minus power/speed and everything. I see Marths dominating the scene for at least half a year right now (if not forever).

And then you hit him off the stage, and he can't recover as well as he used to. Forward b stops his momentum, his range got gimped and he himself is a bit easier to gimp.

Marth has improved, yes (FALCHION PAWNCH). Broken? No.

 

[Nintendude]

I think it's way too soon to say Marth is clearly a top tier character. The thing with Marth is you can play him really similarly to how people played him in Melee, so obviously people are going to transition to him faster and get good with him a lot faster than characters like Pit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, fine, but let's be real.

No one is thinking Marth will drop past high tier.

And I don't think anyone is thinking he will be bottom.

He might not be top, but let's not bull**** either.

Marth is good and most likely he won't drop below high tier.

 

[SynikaL]

Nintendodude:


That's why people keep stating (and restating) "at this point".


-Kimosabae

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also for the record. I think the way Marth is being played in the vids is wrong.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why is that Emblem?
I am not a marth user so I am not too sure as to what you mean.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ignore this plz.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They play like it's melee.

They should play like it's Street Fighter 3:Third Strike, with elements of melee mixed in.

 

[DrewB008]

i play marth the same as i did in melee and i win basically every match, so how is that the wrong way to play him?