Kish Character Impressions 2/9/08 Tournament

[usea]

Thanks very much for these thoughts, prime. Always a good read. My impressions with the characters are largely similar.

I was particularly surprised by the potential of Zelda, Dedede, and G&W. Zelda is great all around. Dedede's minions are good and his moves aren't too hard to land. G&W was improved a ton from melee, which I didn't expect at all. I love his fsmash and upb especially.

I was disappointed with C. Falcon and Ike. Ike is just incredibly slow, I couldn't personally figure out a way to succeed reliably, especially once people have more experience against him. As for C. Falcon, I just could not do anything with him aside from exploiting my opponents' inexperience. His uair is still fine, and his fsmash is okay. He seemingly lost all of his speed and precision though. I need more time with him, but I was so disappointed that he didn't hold up like marth etc did. The fall speed change hurt him a ton.

 

[sv3]

It is. Brawl is not Melee. You can be a Melee god and suck at Brawl.

Extremely wrong. If you are godlike at Melee, then your inherent skill at a similar type of game will at least make you not suck at Brawl. This involves having a general understanding of what to do and what not to do.


So far, this seems to be a pretty good list from some notable sources. I looked at the 'Montage' and it was more detailed and gave better explanations, but I have no idea what their credentials are.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

As I played, some characters felt better to me even if they were superior in Melee. Marth for instance only received the tiniest of boosts and an equally tiny nerf but he feels LOADS better to me because he finally took some of the things that made Roy more satisfying in Melee, like the oomph of attacks connecting. He also has a "FALCHION PAWNCH"

On the other hand I no longer like how Game and watch feels. His dtilt and nair feel gimped to me, even if he improved most other places.

I'm disappointed Sonic won't be top tier because his priority is horrendous, but I still like playing him. Spamming homing attacks and Super Sonic whenever items are on is simply too epic.

 

[SynikaL]

I love the game. It's not Melee. I love the fact that l-cancelling is out. It makes the approach game much different, and the game as a whole could get more defensive, but so far it is not to an extreme.

Okay, question.

Obviously, L-Cancel in Melee added a very large dimension to that game. I can understand one being pliable, or even indifferent towards its extraction from Brawl -- but to behappy to see the technique gone in Brawl is a bit...confusing to me, for lack of a better term.

But your opinion on that issue is not what I'm looking to pry into. My personal logic dictates that one happy with the abstraction of one dimension...must have found comfort or potential in another. So my question is: Where do you see Brawl expanding itself not to compensate, but to make the expulsion of L-Cancel in the game's future irrelevant or even inconsequential?


-Kimosabae

 

[usea]

Okay, question.

Obviously, L-Cancel in Melee added a very large dimension to that game. I can understand one being pliable, or even indifferent towards its extraction from Brawl -- but to behappy to see the technique gone in Brawl is a bit...confusing to me, for lack of a better term.

But your opinion on that issue is not what I'm looking to pry into. My personal logic dictates that one happy with the abstraction of one dimension...must have found comfort or potential in another. So my question is: Where do you see Brawl expanding itself not to compensate, but to make the expulsion of L-Cancel in the game's future irrelevant or even inconsequential?

I know you're not asking me, but I'd like to give my thoughts on the removal of l-canceling.

l-cancelling in melee just meant that all aerials had a fairly small amount of lag. You have to assume that in competitive melee everybody was going to l-cancel all the time. It didn't add any depth to the game, it just changed the balance of the approach game, shield grabbing didn't dominate anymore and the game became very offensive. In brawl, that balance is shifted with no l-cancelling and also shield grabbing being harder to do because of sliding and all the rest of the mechanic changes.

There isn't a missing dimension in brawl, the flow of the game has just changed. Personally, the reason I love l-cancelling's removal is so I don't have to worry about hitting L anymore. Tedious finger skill is not my favorite thing about fighting games.

 

[dmbrandon]

Kishsquared won FC-2 and 5! All joking aside though the Kishes have done very well in tournaments over the years, including making money for teams at MLG year after year. No need to hate =P

I've praised them constantly, don't take it to heart.

It's too bad you couldn't show up since there is a "I spout bull**** and don't know what I am talking about" party right next door and I hear they sent you an invite.

It's funny that you can't make your own jokes. There might be a party for that, but you won't be invited, because you don't seem like a fun person.

Heh. Honestly everyone appreciates your information, but you kind of come off as a jerk the way you argue.

It's true. Sorry. v_v;

I fail to see why such a simple statement would cause people to get so angry. There's nothing wrong with him saying Yoshi sucks.

Yoshi does suck

 

[Ryan-K]

It's funny that you can't make your own jokes. There might be a party for that, but you won't be invited, because you don't seem like a fun person.

Well it's a good thing I'm fun enough to just repeat "shut up you don't know what you're talking about" and pretend I'm a badass for playing a game alot unlike some people right?

 

[dmbrandon]

Well it's a good thing I'm fun enough to just repeat "shut up you don't know what you're talking about" and pretend I'm a badass for playing a game alot unlike some people right?

Stop spamming this thread.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just wanna say that superryan is amazing and you make TSA proud.

Please continue laying down the **** on hapless ignorant fools.

Thumbs up soldier.

Thumbs up.

 

[dmbrandon]

****it, EL.

 

[SynikaL]

I know you're not asking me, but I'd like to give my thoughts on the removal of l-canceling.

l-cancelling in melee just meant that all aerials had a fairly small amount of lag. You have to assume that in competitive melee everybody was going to l-cancel all the time. It didn't add any depth to the game, it just changed the balance of the approach game, shield grabbing didn't dominate anymore and the game became very offensive. In brawl, that balance is shifted with no l-cancelling and also shield grabbing being harder to do because of sliding and all the rest of the mechanic changes.

There isn't a missing dimension in brawl, the flow of the game has just changed. Personally, the reason I love l-cancelling's removal is so I don't have to worry about hitting L anymore. Tedious finger skill is not my favorite thing about fighting games.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you're being logical (not meant to be offensive, I know this is the internet).

It's easy to dismiss the technique as a uniform and ubiquitous element of high-level play, but it's more than that.

L-Cancel was not ubiquitous at Melee's introduction, but quickly grew in its complexity as it did. Combinations is the most obvious dimension of the game that L-Cancel influenced almost literally, exponentially. L-Cancel not only allowed for player ingenuity to thrive within the very broad confines of Melee's physics engine (I still don't believe we've seen all the combo possibilities Melee has to offer), it gave lower tier characters more options for guaranteed damaged.

With Brawl's extraction of the technique, the natural result of the developer deciding which moves not only contain lag, but when, where and how -- is less options. Of course, that is how traditional fighting game moves are developed, but this is an obvious step backwards from SSBM. The pace of the game has changed because L-Cancel is missing. L-Cancel being that dimension catalyzing that change is obvious.

I definitely agree with you that having to press a button is a superfluous action, but my concern is not that the technique should require dexterity, but that it should simply exist.

-Kimosabae

 

[Sharkz]

Are you gonna post vids?

 

[KishPrime]

We have a couple vids, we'll try to post them tomorrow. Unfortunately they are of terrible quality, and may not be worth it. We stopped recording it was so bad. We'll check them out.

As far as your question about l-canceling, you are asking in the wrong way. From a pure depth standpoint, Brawl will likely never equal Melee in terms of pure technical skill. However, after fighting this way for a week or so, I have to say that l-canceling now feels like a distraction from the actual fighting that it makes you feel glad it is gone.

In other words, it removed "depth" from the game if you are making a list of things one player can do in the game to gain an advantage. But in peeling back the layer of l-canceling, we may find that fights become much more about the mental battle between the two players, instead of the battle with oneself to pull off an increasingly technical game. It also takes away the random element of guesswork as to whether or not the other player will l-cancel. Since I've always been more of a mental player, I may be predisposed to like that sort of change, but I think many people will feel the same after playing it.

I don't miss it, but it's an opinion. Yeah, the game is slower paced now because of it. Slow does not equal bad. Besides, there are new ways to reduce lag, and they come down to timing attacks and fast falls, and using attacks that auto-cancel. It's just a different way of playing, and right now I appreciate it. The only flaw may be that the game becomes too defensive because of it, but right now it is not.

 

[Thinkaman]

Kish, that last post needs to be sticked. All accounts should have to sign a wavier saying they read it before being allowed to post.

 

[nice1]

thanx for the impression

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

*walks into topic*

You're wrong about Ness. Just some more confirmation.

*walks out*

*comes back in*

His attacks hit harder with the exception of Bair. His running attack is improved and sets up for combos now. His yo-yo smashes are really good now, and have much better knockback. (up smash hits two times for 17%) His PK Flash is faster but has less range, his Bat hits at a nasty angle now and has more knockback, and lack of DjC actually benifits him greatly. PK Fire is faster and does a lot more damage as well as being harder to get out of, and his PK Thunder actually zaps the opponent if they touch Ness while PK Thunder is out.

 

[Impossibilities]

yeah thanks for impressions, but wish you could go into a little more depth...

 

[SynikaL]

As far as your question about l-canceling, you are asking in the wrong way.

Nah, we just have differing ideas of what makes a competitively viable fighting game. Admittedly, I believe yours is a bit reaching, but I wasn't looking to muddy up your character impressions thread with a Brawl vs. Melee debate. I simply wanted some insight into the thought process of that statement.

Thank you.

-Syn

 

[yoshi_fan]

Yoshi – We don't like him.

No idea what to think yet

I'm sad

 

[Ridley22]

NOOO! Yoshi why didn't you get buffed.

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Thanks for the impressions Kish

 

[flyingmule]

To those talking about 'too early', etc...

It pretty much goes without saying that "ALL TIER LISTS ARE TEMPORARY AND SUBJECTIVE", regardless of when they were written. You can't expect people to toss in disclaimers before everything they say.

Oh, and thank you for the thoughts. Nice to see a complete character list instead of people praising/*****ing about a single character. It is disappointing to see how bad edge hogging kills Olimar.

 

[WastingPenguins]

L-Cancel was not ubiquitous at Melee's introduction, but quickly grew in its complexity as it did. Combinations is the most obvious dimension of the game that L-Cancel influenced almost literally, exponentially.

This. I know a lot of people who learned HOW to L-cancel but never truly took advantage of it. It's why a lot of people can't understand why characters like Captain Falcon are so bad now.

Case study: Captain Falcon's dair. (Forget about spikes let's just talk about its utility in normal combat). In Melee, the stomp wasn't even close to a kill move-- it was purely a combo move. If you land the stomp and l-cancel the lag, you can react to your opponent's DI and follow up in countless ways. If you land it on a shield or miss your opponent completely and l-cancel, you recover fast enough to follow up with another shield-pressure move or even just get out of the way before you're punished. Your opponent, if they wish to compete, now must know your many followup options and react accordingly.

Now take C.Falcon's new dair in Brawl. It's still not that strong of a move so you're not gonna be KOing anyone with it if you land it, but it's so laggy that you're not going to be comboing out of it either. On the defensive side, if you land it on a shield or whiff, you're punished horribly. What you wind up with, all because of a moment of seemingly insignificant lag, is a move with huge risk and little if any possibility of reward-- if you miss or hit shield (which is the most likely outcome, seeing as how in Smash your opponent can shield within mere frames of coming into contact with your hitbox) you're going to be severely punished, and even if you hit you didn't accomplish much anyway. Sadly, it seems that most of Falcon's moves are like this now, which is one of the main reasons he's so bad now.

 

[Zek]

To those talking about 'too early', etc...

It pretty much goes without saying that "ALL TIER LISTS ARE TEMPORARY AND SUBJECTIVE", regardless of when they were written. You can't expect people to toss in disclaimers before everything they say.

They're not tier lists, period. Just some guy making guesses. They carry zero weight in the long run - if people want to give their impressions of the characters they've played, fine, but ranking them in a list gives an illusion of accuracy that has no basis in fact.

 

[flyingmule]

Rankings = Tier Lists, except that there are 35 tiers.

 

[WastingPenguins]

They're not tier lists, period. Just some guy making guesses. They carry zero weight in the long run - if people want to give their impressions of the characters they've played, fine, but ranking them in a list gives an illusion of accuracy that has no basis in fact.

Oh come on. No one's claiming anything has any long-term weight. He's ranking them in the order of how good they SEEM to him thus far, subjectively. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[CrazyShaman]

Lucario – (Pre-tournament) I love the idea that his power increases as damage increases, could make for a great power/combo duality. Playing against him (CPU/human both) is very difficult. (Post-tournament) Ok, he’s going to be one of the most stressful characters to play as. You will rarely be able to get a huge lead, and even if you do the mechanics of damage are going to give the other players chances to get back in it. If you get behind by a stock, you are in serious trouble. Still, someone will make him a good character.

Could you clarify? It sounds like you could be describing fighting him, due to his mechanic, but your wording implies otherwise. Thanks.

 

[KishPrime]

The mechanics of him doing more damage while damaged. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Kel]

Yeah, I thought I was going to miss L-canceling and WDing but really in Brawl you don't need em. The game is so different and so new. I'm just ready to make a new meta game. Mindgames carried over, and that's what matters most anyway. Personally it helps me because I was never a technical player, I was all about experience and mindgames.

Yoshi can up-b over and over again in the air .

Has anyone found a use for footstool jump yet? I was trying to think of a way it could be used in team; such as your team mate needs a boost to make it back to the level so you take the chance of meteor canceling (is this still in btw?) the footstool and both making it back.

PRIIIIIMMEE (yes, you!). Do a MW circuit part troix with brawl!

 

[Zant3tsuken]

I think that Wario is almost universally hated as a character so no one wants to play as him.

*boggle

10char

 

[dmbrandon]

Yeah, I thought I was going to miss L-canceling and WDing but really in Brawl you don't need em. The game is so different and so new. I'm just ready to make a new meta game. Mindgames carried over, and that's what matters most anyway. Personally it helps me because I was never a technical player, I was all about experience and mindgames.

Yoshi can up-b over and over again in the air .

Has anyone found a use for footstool jump yet? I was trying to think of a way it could be used in team; such as your team mate needs a boost to make it back to the level so you take the chance of meteor canceling (is this still in btw?) the footstool and both making it back.

PRIIIIIMMEE (yes, you!). Do a MW circuit part troix with brawl!

You can UB over and over, but only 2 of them will help you. And I've spiked with the footstool dozens of times.

If you get footstooled by a teammate, expect to die.

 

[RedrappeR]

I'm disappointed Sonic won't be top tier because his priority is horrendous, but I still like playing him. Spamming homing attacks and Super Sonic whenever items are on is simply too epic.

His priority doesn't seem THAT terrible. I think it comes down to timing. I've seen a Sonic out prioritize Mk's and TL's.

Personally, the main problem I'm seeing with the guy is range =/

 

[dmbrandon]

His priority doesn't seem THAT terrible. I think it comes down to timing. I've seen a Sonic out prioritize Mk's and TL's.

Personally, the main problem I'm seeing with the guy is range =/

Watch ether's vids. I see sonic getting countered by marth, or MK, but overall, I assume he'll be gross.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Watch ether's vids. I see sonic getting countered by marth, or MK, but overall, I assume he'll be gross.

...is gross a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[DstyCube]

Yoshi does suck

More like you suck with Yoshi lol.

 

[dmbrandon]

More like you suck with Yoshi lol.

We can yoshi ditto. I'll record it over wifi.

You can have host, and I'll bet 50$.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

ooooohhhh ^^^^^^^^^

but ike seems mid tier hhhmmmm he seemed better then that but oh well

 

[Sliq]

Here is what it boils down to:

Fighting games NEED some technicality to them, otherwise they are boring as ****. Certain aspects of controlling the character and/or performing certain attacks or maneuvers need to have a level of difficulty, otherwise there is no need for "mastery."

You have 2 games. One is Guilty Gear, an extremely technical fighter with all sorts of crazy ****, and Chess. In Chess, all you need is strategy. You aren't rewarded with bonuses for moving your pieces extremely well. However, in Guilty Gear, pulling off something technically difficult may yield huge results.

That's how fighting games should be. It is about 1.) rewarding your ability to strategize and 2.) rewarding your ability to control your character. Otherwise you are just playing Chess, which is the opposite of action packed.

You could make the argument that the pushing of "l" in order to cancel lag is arbitrary, but it rewarded the person who executed it properly, and punished those that didn't, forcing a person to master it in order to compete.

Melee was already really ****ing simple, even with AT's. You didn't even need to be overtly technical to win, but it certainly helped amd opened up a **** ton of possibilities.

The fact of the matter is, if you overly simplify a game you are going to make it a lot less action packed, a lot less reliant on ability and more on strategy.

It will be unfortunate if Brawl has a lot less depth than Melee, which seemed to have the perfect amount, with some balancing issues. I enjoy strategy and ****, but I also enjoy the feeling of executing something perfectly and hearing people screaming, "Holy ****ing ****!"

I've never seen someone yell that during a chess match, and it would be a shame if this was yelled during a Brawl match because someone landed a 3 hit combo.

Of course, I haven't actually PLAYED Brawl, but I have talked to a **** load of people, and I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to Melee (and what makes Melee fun as balls). But I do know what makes something deep, and what doesn't make it deep. And REMOVING things generally tends to remove depth UNLESS something else is implemented, and we have yet to see this new mechanic.

I'm looking at you Warrock. T_T

 

[DstyCube]

We can yoshi ditto. I'll record it over wifi.

You can have host, and I'll bet 50$.

Lol, chill dude, haven't you seen HugS thread? We all suck . I only say it because in that match you played as Yoshi vs Pit match you killed yourself twice.

Sure, I'd like to play you in a Yoshi ditto when brawl comes out.

 

[dmbrandon]

Lol, chill dude, haven't you seen HugS thread? We all suck . I only say it because in that match you played as Yoshi vs Pit match you killed yourself twice.

Sure, I'd like to play you in a Yoshi ditto when brawl comes out.

!! That match didn't count. I told ether I was gonna beat him blindfolded!! I kept closing ym eyes!!! hahahahah

I'll make new yoshi vids tomorrow for ya ^_~