Kish Character Impressions 2/9/08 Tournament

[cHaNg-sTa]

I think it's way too soon to say Marth is clearly a top tier character. The thing with Marth is you can play him really similarly to how people played him in Melee, so obviously people are going to transition to him faster and get good with him a lot faster than characters like Pit.

Well, the main reason for this is BECAUSE you can play him really similarly to his Melee counterpart. And with Melee being better than Brawl in the offensive department, it's no surprise that people are speculating that he will be one of the best characters.

 

[Nintendude]

Ok, fine, but let's be real.

No one is thinking Marth will drop past high tier.

And I don't think anyone is thinking he will be bottom.

He might not be top, but let's not bull**** either.

Marth is good and most likely he won't drop below high tier.

Well, I agree with that. He's definitely a solid character.

 

[SynikaL]

They play like it's melee.

They should play like it's Street Fighter 3:Third Strike, with elements of melee mixed in.

That post almost reeks of you seeking credibility from SRK lurkers. That post doesn't even make any sense in itself without some type of explication.


-Syn

 

[ShadowLink84]

Argghhh!! I can't believe I didn't even think of that very obvious set back -- it's one of my biggest beefs with Brawl (I will likely never go to a Brawl tournament since I've been known to loathe the length of Melee tourneys despite my love for the game). God, I hate Brawl.

You just seriously broke my heart just now.



-Kimo
(not to mention my mojo)

Isn't it possible to run the games using timed matches?
4 to 5 minute matches with a -2 for every self destruct (to discourage intentional suicide)
Its not as good as stock matches for 1v1's but yeah its an idea.


Furthermore its been known that Sonic can KO characters at around 100% via air guarding so maybe its not all hopeless since there may be ways to KO at much lower percentages.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DrewB008:Which is fine for now. Till people start to really "play" brawl.

I mean Marth is good since you can abuse SH's with him and fairs and **** and still do well.

He is versatile. But Brawl has a slower pace with more emphasis on spacing. SH's are floatier and fast falling isn't that fast. The game is different from melee. And now that Dash dancing and wavedashing is gone there is less mobility. So to have full control over your character, walking would have to be used.

So less running and SH abuse is what I see in the future. Which means more reliance on tilts and the ground game.

Marth is versatile since you can play him like Melee marth and ****. Fine. But his ground game is fearsome.

Dancing Blade got faster and gives him a reliable canned combo.

His standard swipes is another solid canned string.

U-smash hitbox is ridiculous. Think Peaches d-smash from Melee to get an idea. Also if they are near you it hits with fulll force even when they are standing next to you.

He still has his tipper f-smash for early kills.

D-smash got buffed in knockback.

Grabs still set-up for follow-ups.

D-tilt still has IASA frames. So D-tilt for spacing and force opponent on defensive, then cancel to dash grab or walk closer to keep your spacing or w/e.

You see what I'm saying. Melee Marth is beast in Brawl.

Brawl Marth in Brawl is just.....

Holy ****.

Syn: I'm not saying anything that I haven't said on GFaqs or here as well as SRK.

 

[DrewB008]

matches take considerably longer, not only because of higher survivability but also because camping and playing somewhat defensively is much tougher to counter, and therefore more prevalent in matches.

edit: emblem lord, i see what you mean a little more now, but really it feels like higher mobility in the air coupled with less no dashdancing places the emphasis on spacing aerials more than anything else. while i do use forward b a lot, and his fsmash and utilt are both very good still, there simply is hardly anything anybody can do to punish spaced fairs, whereas most other moves are more punishable. also, the one thing that people arent touching on is the shieldbreaker. it breaks shields a lot more easily, and given the effectiveness of shieldgrabbing aerials, you can trick people into getting their shields broken pretty often, i do it once every couple matches.

 

[ShadowLink84]

i play marth the same as i did in melee and i win basically every match, so how is that the wrong way to play him?

melee Marth=/=Brawl Marth.
Brawl=/=melee

You have to paly differently of course otherwise you WILL lose to another Marth as time progresses.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spacing is huge in this game now.

I'll say this. People with really good air games will fall back on that. And people with better ground games will probably find thmeselves relying on that.

I take back what I said about SHing, since even in a ground based metagame it is an excellent spacing tool.

 

[KishSquared]

Actually there was an encoded message just for Luteyi. I told him to play Yoshi, so I can see where the miscommunication occured.

Also, this is Prime.

 

[DrewB008]

of course you cant just play exactly the same, but its still the same overall strategy of spacing aerials, grabbing when they shield, and hitting with smashes when the opportunity arises. i think juke and jiano both are smarter players than i am, and they both have been playing a little more than me, but i could beat any of their characters just by abusing marths range and ability to gimp.

edit: this board moves way too fast, the message im replying to is always like 4 posts back.

 

[SynikaL]

EL:

I agree with you somewhat except for the part about Forward B being a reliable canned string. It doesn't happen consistently, but Marth can be grabbed out of it on HIT -- which seems to be true for most canned strings in this game at this point which is quite annoying.

Shadow:

That's an idea, but it seems a little imposing. I don't know how open minded people would actually be about enforcing rules on Brawl just to have Melee persist. Looks like I really do need to make that thread. I'll get around to it when I have time.


-Kimosabae

 

[Emblem Lord]

I don't know about Dancing Blade only because I have seen it come out sooooooo fast.

Also I don't think I have seen anyone grab Falco out of his on hit. That will be another point of distinction. Who can be grabbed out of their canned combos and who can't be.

Also Marth's A swipes seem to have quite a bit of stun. I haven't seen him get grabbed out of it yet.

I have seen Fox get grabbed out of it numerous times though.

 

[cHaNg-sTa]

I mean Marth is good since you can abuse SH's with him and fairs and **** and still do well.

He is versatile. But Brawl has a slower pace with more emphasis on spacing. SH's are floatier and fast falling isn't that fast. The game is different from melee. And now that Dash dancing and wavedashing is gone there is less mobility. So to have full control over your character, walking would have to be used.

Who says Melee didn't have emphasis on spacing? Pretty at extreme high levels of play, the differences between the top players is who can space and mindgame much better since everyone can do the advanced techniques anyways.

Marth's A swipes are noticeably laggier, you will get grabbed.

 

[DrewB008]

basically anything can get shield grabbed if its not spaced, even dancing blade and that move is ridiculously fast. this is another thing that helps marth a lot, his ability to fair shields from far enough away to not get shield grabbed. also i dunno what canned combos means haha

edit: spacing was really important in melee, in brawl its almost the only important thing we can see so far.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Spacing in Brawl will count for more then in melee since it is slower paced.

This is just IMHO of course.

 

[SynikaL]

Spacing in Brawl will count for more then in melee since it is slower paced.

This is just IMHO of course.

I think everyone agrees with that assessment. Where I think we all disagree is that the natural result of that emphasis is a strength in Brawl's game play in relation to Melee.


-Syn

 

[ShadowLink84]

Shadow:

That's an idea, but it seems a little imposing. I don't know how open minded people would actually be about enforcing rules on Brawl just to have Melee persist. Looks like I really do need to make that thread. I'll get around to it when I have time.


-Kimosabae

yes thats the only thing that troubles me. However I beleive it wuld be overall better since stock matches would take forever in Brawl and a time limit would prevent matches from lasting forever.
Granted those games aren't so long but matches typically last twice as long as they did in melee sometimes three times as long. ]
Granted the game came out s people aren't to proficient at KOing people but if it turns out that the matches are too long, then it will have to be forcibly shortened.
It sounds harsh but only time will tell what will work out for the competitive scene

 

[Proven]

Mostly a lurker in this thread, I just want to stop for a second to clear up something.

Brawl changed the way self destructs in Time matches happen. Basically, whoever damaged you last gets the point, no matter how you died. The only way to really get a self destruct is to respawn and either suicide right away or get killed by a stage hazard before a player could put a point of damage on you. Self Destructs are a lot more rare now because of this, and you end up seeing a lot more Sudden Death ends in one on one games as well.

 

[CrazyShaman]

The mechanics of him doing more damage while damaged. Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry, I misworded the question. I know about the mechanic since I plan to main him. However, your description sounds like he's hard to get an advantage as, and to keep the advantage due to his mechanics. However, to me, it sounds like you could be describing fighting against him, given that getting him to high percents makes him more dangerous. Could you explain which perspective you were taking?

 

[da K.I.D.]

along the lines of the ppl turning this into a marth thread. id just like to add that todays dojo update showcased how hits at max range are basically gonna be phantom hits ... except for the dude whose max range has double the knockback.

So lets sum up

every1 elses max range hits=phantom hits.
marth's max range hits=death
marth has the least amount of change from melee and will be easiest for ppl to use who have already played him
+ the fact that spacing is much more important now means marth is the best char. ...again and will be unfair ...again

gg... ...mf's

 

[Yeroc]

yes thats the only thing that troubles me. However I beleive it wuld be overall better since stock matches would take forever in Brawl and a time limit would prevent matches from lasting forever.
Granted those games aren't so long but matches typically last twice as long as they did in melee sometimes three times as long. ]
Granted the game came out s people aren't to proficient at KOing people but if it turns out that the matches are too long, then it will have to be forcibly shortened.
It sounds harsh but only time will tell what will work out for the competitive scene

We can always lower the number of stock per match.

Competitive Melee games run anywhere between 2-6 minutes I'd say, so why not trim the stock down to something that runs comparable. I would guess that would be somewhere in the ballpark of 1-3 stock.

This can sort of even tie in to the post that Squared made this morning about how long tournaments take. Tournaments in our community evolved differently from those of more traditional fighting games for a number of reasons. Different gameplay mechanics, lack of a clearly defined (and infinitely more configurable) standard mode of play, various other settings that needed tweaking, and also there was the fact that it was the only game we played, vs having 3 or 4 tournaments at a single event. On that last front, things are changing. We have 3 different Smash games now, and the differences are starting to pull our community members in various different directions, but I for one would love to see a Smash community as opposed to a Brawl community and a Melee community and a SSB community. But in order to do that the first step I see is shortening the length of the average game. Of course, this sort of scene shaping is a long way off and pretty difficult to predict, but for now, I'm a little curious about what other people think about things like this.

 

[Cyrlous]

I never played Melee competitively, but I'm thinking of doing so with Brawl. I personally think it's cool that so much of the Advanced stuff is gone so that the old pros don't have quite so much of an advantage over guys like myself. This way, I might even be able to catch up skill-wise at some point down the road.

 

[SirPainsalot]

Not bad. Pretty decent and honest impressions. Good job.

EDIT: 100TH POST WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

 

[thesage]

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wx0bz_6FQ

Will this be helpful for bowser?

 

[Takumaru]

LOL! You just watched a ton of videos and made this up, prime. We all know you haven't actualy played brawl LOLOLOLOL! NOOB!

Anyway if you want my imput on who I used saturday here it is. As far as I know no one used sheik or ness aside from myself but I wasn't always watching.

Ness gets reliable kills with his bat, I landed a few nice 85-90% kills with it. Overall ness is faster in both movement and attack speed. He combos relatively well.

Sheik requires a lot more setting up that Zelda, I believe this is why she appears weaker. I won't pretend to be the expert but this is just my opinion after a lot of sheik play saturday.

Snake + Lucas is the greatest team ever even though I hit you with PK fire more than the other team. That's ok because you killed me with a mine.

We'll chat more on thursday.

EDIT: Typing at midnight is not something I should do.

EDIT 2: Sliq gets a cookie for mentioning guilty gear.

 

[Blood_Hawk]

We have a couple vids, we'll try to post them tomorrow. Unfortunately they are of terrible quality, and may not be worth it. We stopped recording it was so bad. We'll check them out.

That is too bad. My battle with Joshu was epic to say the least......

Lucario vs ZSS is such an awesome sight to see.

 

[Wight]

Awesome thread on the basis that you said you hate monkeys. Diddy is probably the most irritating character in game. Even more annoying than Lucas' pre-release voice. I mean.. >.<

i hate monkeys.

Missiles-cancel is back IMO. From the few vids ive seen there is barely no lag upon touching the ground. Only problem has been for people to time it right. Just like Falco's SHL