King DDD+; rejoice for the chain grab!

[KOkingpin]

Not necessary, I don't think. DDD's a solid character. His only problem is a lack of approach, and that's more to do with his mobility, than anything. Just learn his pokes, and you should be alright.

I agree with this. Waddle Doo Toss is good as it is. Its not meant to be a real approach but more of a Campish type approach. D3 can approach by hovering above his opponent with Dair or Hitting back of shield with Bair.

 

[AtotheZ]

waddle doo is too slow for brawl plus. You get punished by half the cast by some insane combo. Hovering is the best option since dair is broken and leads to broken combos. I usually just try to gimp with him though since he is extremely good at it with the nerfed recoveries present in brawl +.

Oh, and bair is good since it shuts down half the cast. Also a good combo starter as it leads into another bair/dair/grab.

 

[Plum]

I figure we could start some DDD discussion in terms of how he plays in The Cape's new set, which has a lot of what can be expected in the next nightly.

The physics changes are huge for DDD's game. Nothing specific has been done to DDD, but he really needs nothing at this point.

If you haven't played the set, 4 big changes affect DDD's game more then the others.
First off, and most importantly is the reduction of hitstun. This only helps DDD. His combo game is fully intact, and even better but I'll get into that later. Less hitstun doesn't hurt his game, while making him that small bit harder to combo. Those combo heavy characters don't have their way as much with DDD when they get inside, and that is a major plus. To me it felt like playing a character that hated RC1 physics; everything was cookie cutter, a lot was guaranteed, and the combos lasted longer and for more damage.

Second change I like is less shieldstun. Now, don't get TOO excited about that because it isn't the lolvBrawl shieldstun. It was done to lessen how many moves are very safe on shield. Weaker attacks basically have the same shieldstun but stronger attacks now have less. The big thing for DDD is that his grab game is that much better when the shield pressure game is that much worse. You can't live in your shield like you could in vBrawl but I'm definitely landing grabs I wouldn't be getting in RC1.

Third is NADT. Stands for no airdodge during tumble. Basically if you want to airdodge as soon as the hitstun is over you first have to wiggle your way out of tumble. Along with lower hitstun, NADT makes the combo game more dynamic. Technically it's the string game, but whatever. Wiggling literally takes a split second to slam your joystick and right your character, and then you are free to airdodge. For some characters this is their only option. Others like Wolf and Luigi don't need to worry about it because they have sick combo breakers, and to a degree DDD doesn't need to wiggle free. At least not always. DDD can almost always afford to use a jump to get out of combos unlike characters who lack multiple jumps. Jumping and using Nair, or jumping into an airdodge seems like a very effective way to get out of a string.
What I see DDD gaining from NADT in terms of his combo game is that certain things that wouldn't work can find themselves connecting if the opponent doesn't wiggle out of tumble quick enough. Again, it just makes everything not so "cookie cutter" and the same thing each time.

Last change I like is the return of stale moves. Yeah, stale moves. It isn't nearly as potent as vBrawl. IIRC a fully staled move now functions at 75% power. This has downsides and upsides. Downside being that a lot of moves DDD uses very often are also good kill moves. Moves like Bair and Fair that are used commonly will be killing a little bit later, but not terribly later like in vBrawl. The big upside though is what it adds to his combo game. For example I had Nair staled down and saw it comboing into Fair or Bair later then it would have ever done in RC1. The other great thing about stale moves is that it can allow you to WoP with a staled Bair or Fair at higher %'s. So while moves like Bair and Fair kill later because of how often they are used, they also continue to WoP at higher %'s.

I'm really enjoying DDD in the improved physics. A lot of those changes out helped him out a lot. Moveset wise he already had everything he could ever need to be a big threat, he just needed to get out of RC1 physics to truly shine.

 

[Glick]

You didn't mention DDD's new ALC lag.

You can't FF dair>Up tilt anymore

 

[Plum]

Kind of sad that I never noticed it <_>
Well it's not like Utilt has a hard time finding a way to hit anyways. It's a pretty quick move with invincibility on hit, hits through platforms and through a good portion of Dairs in the game.
At the very least there's times when missed DI leads into Utilt from an AC Dair.

 

[Plum]

Too good.

DDD+ players ignite discussion gogogogo.
More specifically some matchups.
Biggest problems for me:
PrOlimar, Pikachu, and Toon Link.

Any suggestions on how to handle these types of matchups?
All these characters can hurl effective spam at DDD, combo him VERY well, and they each have that small lightweight frame making them hard targets.

Olimar is just a tank, forces an approach, shuts it down, then tacks on huge punishment. Saving grace is his recovery, but every Olimar I play knows how to stay on stage. One of his worse matchups in vBrawl, and it definitely isn't getting better when Olimar takes to B+ physics so well.

Pikachu is so quick, to the point where I feel like its the biggest reason he's winning this matchup. His effective combo game, jolts, and effective recovery are making this even worse. DDD has effective straight out kill options, but when you can't land the gimp its just going to drag things on and that's never good.

Toon Link throws out wall after wall, and DDD's huge girth isn't helping him get through it any easier. He can cancel out things like arrows and rangs but bombs are just going to explode. Getting around the projectiles isn't the problem once you get used to it all, but its forcing you to commit to actions and allows TL to take advantage of the situation. That's definitely the biggest thing he has here, being able to force you into actions.

So anyone have experience with these?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Olimar: bair tends to be my best friend. Try to throw him offstage, and wall with bair.

Pikachu: if he runs at you, down tilt. if he side b's, down tilt. Shield or spotdodge through thunder jolts...again, bair is your best friend. I agree, this is one of his worst matchups.

Toon Link: abuse his recovery whenever possible. If he doesn't sweetspot the ledge, bair him ASAP. Up tilt his dairs, and again use bair:

TL; DR: Bair through everything XD. jk, but seriously...that's the best advice I can give you right now.

 

[Coyn3Masta]

Olimar: bair tends to be my best friend. Try to throw him offstage, and wall with bair.

Pikachu: if he runs at you, down tilt. if he side b's, down tilt. Shield or spotdodge through thunder jolts...again, bair is your best friend. I agree, this is one of his worst matchups.

Toon Link: abuse his recovery whenever possible. If he doesn't sweetspot the ledge, bair him ASAP. Up tilt his dairs, and again use bair:

TL; DR: Bair through everything XD. jk, but seriously...that's the best advice I can give you right now.

Bair is amazing?

 

[The Cape]

Olimar: Use dair. ***** Pikmin and outranges all his ****. Land out of his reach.

TL and Pikachu: (this sounds silly, but Approach with Bair.

 

[Veril]

Pikachu hard-counters DDD, no doubt. I think DDD has the tools to deal with a recovering pikachu though.

Exploit the lack of autosweetspot, and terrible priority of QA when he's recovering from a distance. Basically, on frame 15 you'll see which direction he's going to QA to, and from 15 to ~30 he's actually moving for the first jump of QA. Just about anything will beat it. I've gotten so used to dealing with QA (Khan... you punk) that I can safely say its possible to read that move.

 

[Plum]

Well I suppose something inside me hoped that "use Bair more than you already do, it works in practically every situation because the move is THAT good" wouldn't be the answer, but who am I kidding?

Bair is THAT good.

DDD has fun hitboxes.

 

[The Cape]

Have you seen dair?

Aerial superiority with a HUGE multihitting hitbox below you. How insane.

 

[5ive]

DDD is a hard matchup for Pika. Anyone who can outspace Pika, especially one with tools such as DDD's bair, dair, and ftilt can easily punish Pikachu's approaches. DDD's multiple jumps also make him mobile enough to avoid edgeguard thunders.

The only thing DDD has to worry about is Pikachu's spaced rising fairs, which can pretty much compete with spaced bairs.

lolconflictingopinions.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

I haven't played an Olimar or Pika. For Oli, I would just Dair camp. It makes it tough for Oli to do much. I also like how you have just enough time to double jump after a SH Dair. Pika.....I have no clue.

Toon Link isn't really hard for me. I play against a very good TL main regularly in regular Brawl, and he plays him the same way in B+, so spam really doesn't affect me much. Once you get past the projectiles, just handle your business.

Down Throw is amazing. Mix it in with Fsmash and you have shenanigans out the @$$.

 

[GreenFox]

I think they should take dededes jet hammer shuffle glitch and make it take less imputs to get the same effect to buff his down b it'd be pretty interesting.

 

[BG3]

Well I suppose something inside me hoped that "use Bair more than you already do, it works in practically every situation because the move is THAT good" wouldn't be the answer, but who am I kidding?

Bair is THAT good.

DDD has fun hitboxes.

Stupid Sakurai.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

and even weirder is that his foot is thinner at the end..that's really disjointed in terms of shape

 

[Alphatron]

Dedede Bair>half the cast.

On another note, short hopping dairs isn't as effective as it used to be. It's actually extremely punishable since the full dair will never hit.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

you can short hop dair > DJ dair >.>

 

[GreenFox]

I dont see how you get punished from it, If you space it right and SH+DAIR

 

[Plum]

Posting this here in response to Chibo, and any other player that may share his, and others view on DDD (and to a degree my own, though I have clear bias in DDD's favor).

Maybe consider a similar approach to Kirby's Bair?
As it stands the move is insanely disjointed, so it might be fine to just reduce the move's ability to wall by removing how safe DDD is while using it. The hitbox extends WELL beyond the reach of his foot, so it might solve the issue altogether by just having it match the animation much better. It would also force DDD's to use Fair into their game more; its a highly disjointed move but its overshadowed by Bair's speed and lingering hitbox and equally effective hitbox. Giving you the decision of either speed (Bair is frame 6) or a big disjointed hitbox might be a good thing for DDD because his gameplay is largely centralized around "Bair until I can grab or Dair. Mix in some tilts and waddles. Profit from living forever and killing and gimping early."

Also how do people feel about his Dair? I will admit that 17% from his main combo move, that has guaranteed followups on the last hit regardless of the % is very high. With a character like Ganondorf or Bowser it seems to be fine that they dish out such insane damage like that because they have such glaring weaknesses, however DDD has their damage output without those glaring weaknesses. He's one of the fatties that feels the bonuses of his weight and size more than the cons.

He grabs whatever he wants, kills early, gimps early, combos regardless of the %, walls most of the cast, and lives forever. Its why I play him, and I can admit that he has polarizing options that are a bit too effective. I'll say it again, DDD's Bair > half the cast on its own, and his Dair is close too.

A lot of the changes to DDD happened because people thought he was so bad in B+... Basically the loss of his CG overshadowed everything else he can do. As a DDD player I was fine with him getting some new stuff to use, but even I'll admit that he didn't need buffs. People put him up as a potential worst character in B+ several sets ago (along with characters like Bowser and Sonic at he time), so the former WBR gave him some **** good buffs, like the no KGB Dair, improved Uair, larger hitbox on Nair, improved Uthrow and Fthrow.

I had some fun with him, but on the other hand its good to see people seeing what I saw in him.

EDIT:
Another thought; what about if Dair was returned to its original vBrawl values?
With B+ hitstun it will still have a lot of guaranteed followups at low percents but that's essentially it. I don't see the problem with that if the move becomes primarily a tool for very effective spacing from above with its amazing hitbox, instead of a great spacing tool and guaranteed combo move regardless of the %.

Just my thoughts as a DDD player ._.

His excellent showing at Hackfest is probably an eye opener to some people. DDD ***** hard, and to all those people saying he was among the worst in the game a while back, LOL. I said it long ago, and I've always said it... Bair > half the cast on its own. Give him even more to work with and things will be silly.

 

[GHNeko]

I agree with how redonk D3's bair can be after seeing M2K hungrybox VaNz super hard in B+.

However, even with his polarized playstyle, D3 is not without his weaknesses and falls prey to certain characters as well as playstyles. Projectile heavy users with decent options do well, if not, even-ish with D3 such as Samus or Falco. Characters with high range and/or priority moves can also handle D3 such as MK. Even Ike has ways to deal with D3 as long as he gets the right stage and spaces correctly despite his gimpability.

D3 isnt ridiculous and if changes have to be done to him, it should be on a basis of trade-offs, not straight up nerfs.

That's what I think.

 

[RPGsFTW]

What's all this about Dedede? There SHOULD BE more *****ing about Falco and how he ***** everything with relative ease, cough SK92 cough. And Ike is pretty god **** good as well.

I keep feeling like Wario is small time when I know he isn't. It's frustrating.

And the Dedede's I play are all easy to fight...

 

[GHNeko]

Untouchable? Isnt that a bit of an over-exaggeration? His D3 wasn't even winning 100% of the match and player skill (It's M2K LOL) also should be taken into account. To say he has no even match ups and bad stages can be considered insane as there isnt even any remote info on his match ups.

Yes. His advantages outweigh his cons. I recognize you can literally main only his Bair and toss out a few dairs and grabs and be successful most of the time, but to say that no one can beat D3 without really comparing all of his match ups, all 38 of them, without numerous amounts of input is also insane. Which why I'm not against nerfing those insanely polarizing aspects of D3, as long as he is compensated in other ways. I dont even think he's a top 5 character, though after seeing M2K play D3, I believe he is indeed top 10.

cawm mawn VaNz.

 

[Veril]

DDD is being handled due to how x-hyphen-treme he is. No other character will be getting similar treatment until the 6.0 metagame is given far more time to develop.

@RPG: SK92 should be nerfed, clearly. ;p

 

[VietGeek]

neko is probably trying real hard to sound professional and collected despite the fact that marf still gets stoned by d3 like the chinese versus british in the opium wars

its okay neko

u can make a 1000 enemies and i will still stand 100 m away from you, willing to wave diligently to you by the mulberry tree

anyway yeah, brawl+ is still too small so strong but seldom played contenders and underrated characters that may have been buffed in excess haven't really been thoroughly abused yet.

we need more spirited people to main random and wafts

 

[RPGsFTW]

First of all, I'd like to see vids of M2K playing as B+ Dedede, if there are any videos.

Also, am I one of the only ones here, I know other Vegas players know it's stupid too, that thinks Falco's Nair is too good? Out of any aerial in the game, it seems like his Nair goes into anything, whenever he wants. Nair -> Usmash is annoying.

 

[GHNeko]

DDD is being handled due to how x-hyphen-treme he is. No other character will be getting similar treatment until the 6.0 metagame is given far more time to develop.

@RPG: SK92 should be nerfed, clearly. ;p

M2K should also be nerfed, clearly.

I still stand by my thoughts on D3 though. I refuse to believe he has absolutely no disadvantaged Match Ups and at least 2-3 bad stages.

 

[VietGeek]

RPGsFTW we were just talking about d3...and his dair. o_o

anyway doesn't essentially have almost no range except toward his upper front (where his wings are more pronounced?) and even then, it's similar to Mewtwo nair?

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

Well, im a DDD player and I must say, whenever I play as him I feel rather invincible in some matchups. But then there are other times against certain characters where I don't have an easy time against them. I think DDD could use some SMALL nerfs, nothing crazy, although crazy unecessary nerfs will probably happen anyway. Most of the time when im owning people with DDD it's because the other player is basically doing everything wrong playing against DDD. Hes an amazing character don't get me wrong, and he does need a couple small nerfs, but maybe his ablilties are being a little over - exaggerated. I think all that really needs to be done is his dair needs a little growth, and bair hitbox a little smaller. Nothing else!...that's my opinion.

 

[RPGsFTW]

RPGsFTW we were just talking about d3...and his dair. o_o

anyway doesn't essentially have almost no range except toward his upper front (where his wings are more pronounced?) and even then, it's similar to Mewtwo nair?

What does that part you said about Dedede matter? I'm not talking about him, just Falco, because I think that Falco is better than Dedede. I haven't seen M2K play B+, but I play SK92's Falco, and I watch his Falco is B+ **** people like it's nothing. Especially with repeated SHFF Nairs. Those SHFF Nairs beat up shields pretty ugly too, especially if you are on a platforms above the Falco that decides to do a million Nairs.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

I strongly believe Pit has a good matchup (or goes even) against DDD.

Pit really CAN'T have any bad matchups. What weaknesses does he even have? None. :< His recovery is good, regardless of upB not gaining proper momentum when falling.

 

[RiteToRmnSilent]

I strongly believe Pit has a good matchup (or goes even) against DDD.

Pit really CAN'T have any bad matchups. What weaknesses does he even have? None. :< His recovery is good, regardless of upB not gaining proper momentum when falling.

I agree, Pit can take DDD pretty well. I play a Pit sometimes and that's always pretty tough. There are other characters better than DDD, so why go all nerf crazy on him? I think the main problem is no one has ever really fought a DDD in Brawl+ so they don't know how to play against a DDD. I don't know why DDD was basically thrown aside in Brawl+, ive always used him and I have always seen great potential with him. I think people are just suprised at how good he can be, so now their scared of him lol.

 

[VietGeek]

What does that part you said about Dedede matter? I'm not talking about him, just Falco, because I think that Falco is better than Dedede.

Also, am I one of the only ones here, I know other Vegas players know it's stupid too, that thinks Falco's Nair is too good? Out of any aerial in the game, it seems like his Nair goes into anything, whenever he wants. Nair -> Usmash is annoying.

how my statements matter to you does not concern me, they are your own concerns.

however your previous statements likened a certain bird's signature combo move to another certain bird's signature combo move. there is no reason to appear so riled up about it

anyway continue on, since we've gone into a complaint tangent here i don't see why one of the more legitimate concerns can't be heard out completely.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Since you addressed me with a question, Viet, I think it is of your concern. To me, it looked like you meant to have said that to someone else, because I wasn't really discussing Dedede besides the part where I think that he is pretty easy to fight. I do agree that changing his Bair's size and the way his Dair works would probably be a good idea.

Also I didn't understand the other things you just said due to your weird typing nature. So if you were thinking that I had a good argument, I'll say this: Falco's Nair is fast, seems to have priority of the gods, like Falco in general, can be repeated relatively safely even though is Dair is good enough in that use, and seems like it's one of the easiest kill set-ups I've seen in the game. Nair -> Usmash rrraaagggeee.

To me, it's just unnecessary for Falco to be able to do everything and anything good and safe, be that lasers -> anything, since they're easy to follow up, or just kill.

 

[ph00tbag]

Wait, are there people who think DDD needs to be nerfed?

lol

 

[Team Giza]

I think the dair damage nerf might be needed and bair should be nerfed in size a bit to fit the animation a little more.

D3 isnt ridiculous and if changes have to be done to him, it should be on a basis of trade-offs, not straight up nerfs.

I agree with you here but I have my obvious bias towards Dedede and want his Doo's to have the hitlag on their beam put back to vBrawl status somehow.

The real issue is that D3 didn't get nerfed as much as other characters from the change in hitstun and shieldstun from 5.0 to this version. So he was left unchanged when others changed significantly which puts him quite a bit above the other now.

 

[Alphatron]

As someone who faces Peach alot, I don't think Dedede dair is THAT ridiculous when compared to some other moves in the game.

But I'm clearly biased. A well spaced dair does 17% if your opponent doesn't get out of it. Then it leads into all of his aerials aside from uair and another dair, and even utilt.

It's a bit too soon to say he needs nerfs though.

 

[ph00tbag]

He's not even that good.

 

[Alphatron]

^Back that up please.