King DDD+; rejoice for the chain grab!

[ph00tbag]

How about the fact that he has no approach besides running and shielding, or spotdodging for a mix-up? The fact that he gets the crap comboed out of him by most of the cast? How about his *** mobility?

I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he doesn't need any nerfs, because he's got weakness that are really, really easy for some character's to exploit. He's already a cakewalk to juggle, and now you want to nerf the one defense he has against it?

Are people even thinking?

 

[Alphatron]

I thought you were saying he was bad. My mistake. I don't think he needs nerfs right now either.

 

[Plum]

DDD has plenty of approach options. In the current set he has SH double Bair, SH Dair > double jump, SH AC Dair into his ground options, SH AC Fair, DC tilts or DC jab, running into shield, etc... Saying he has like no approach options is just a lack of knowledge. Look at vBrawl DDD, do you honestly see just spamming shield grabs? He's evolved well beyond that point and its almost sad that somebody could really say all he can do is run into his shield as an approach.

He can also force a lot of characters to approach him with waddles, and he has a large area around him he effectively zones in. Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair, Fair, and Dair all come together to make a big area where its dangerous to let DDD remain in control.

About why DDD needs nerfs, it isn't that DDD is broken. Its that certain moves are broken. Bair on its own single handedly counters a large portion of characters. It hits quickly on frame 6, has a long lasting hitbox, and its hugely disjointed. Most characters simply cannot do anything about it. Dair does 17% and combos into most aerials regardless of the %, and can even combo into Utilt if you DI wrong. 17% for a hugely disjointed move that not only provides DDD with amazing safety from above but combos regardless of % is too good.

Let me assure everyone that DDD as a character isn't changing much at all. His Dair is taking a damage nerf, but its still going to keep its combo abilities, and great defensive usage. Just less damage on such an all purpose move. Bair is going to match its animation in terms of hitbox size, and will be nerfed in damage and IASA will be moved to frame 36 from 33. That prevents DDD from a SH Double Bair. Essentially Bair keeps its speed, lingering hitbox, and will become a better WoP move with lower damage (and KB as a result allowing it to link into itself for longer). Dair will feel the same but with less damage (so other options may become better when needing to rack up damage quickly) and Bair's nerfs will have Fair become more prevalent.

 

[ph00tbag]

DDD has plenty of approach options. In the current set he has SH double Bair, SH Dair > double jump, SH AC Dair into his ground options, SH AC Fair, DC tilts or DC jab, running into shield, etc... Saying he has like no approach options is just a lack of knowledge. Look at vBrawl DDD, do you honestly see just spamming shield grabs? He's evolved well beyond that point and its almost sad that somebody could really say all he can do is run into his shield as an approach.

There's no accounting for vastly over-generalizing the word, "approach," here. You're talking about walls, mostly. I never said DDD had bad walls. In fact, I'd say his walls are so good that most of the time it's not worth approaching if your opponent doesn't want to play campy.

When I say approach, I mean actually closing the gap to where you can really do damage. This means not only an option that can beat out projectiles and not be punishable, but also can get close quickly. None of DDD's aerials do that, because he has no air mobility, so I don't know why you'd mention his aerials. DC dtilt can do that, but is tremendously weak to aerial attacks, and most characters will be using that against DDD. DJ jab is good as well, but is similarly weak to air footsies. Suffice to say, running shield is DDD's most reliable approach. Everything else is mix-ups. I don't know why you don't see that.

And lol at saying bair is broken. Just... lol. Maybe I'm only playing against those oh so rare characters that can punish it, but I've been punished for so many bairs. It's not as spammable as people think.

As far as Dair goes, there's the question of why you're getting hit by it. It has no range to the sides, just get out from under DDD and punish him for dairing. Seriously, "It's always been a dumb move" is a terrible reason for changing something, especially when you haven't even bothered to figure out a way around it.

 

[cobaltblue]

All I can say is is that anyone who did not see V+ play against ike in the recent near gold stream is on crack if they think D3 has no mobility.

I have nothing else to add on D3 though as I haven't played anyone that mains him and the char itself is a counter to my mains.

 

[ph00tbag]

Of course, it can't be because DDD is up against Ike, whose only way of getting around with any alacrity is Quick Draw. You haven't even played any DDD players, and it sounds like you don't play him yourself. Now why are you lecturing me about him, when I actually play him?

 

[Veril]

DDD is very likely to see some changes. While I am loath to change ANY character at this point, there is an overwhelming consensus within the voting block of the backroom that DDD has elements of his moveset that necessitate a fix (bair and dair).

When these changes have been finalized I will post them here.

One that has near unanimous support (including from Glick, a top DDD+) is the removal of SH double bair, which I will making impossible by a single frame. This will be done by making a very minor change to the iasa (33-36). It is currently almost a perfect SHed aerial wall due to it having an amazing hitbox, amazing damage, quick (6 frame) startup, coming out TWICE with the second being nearly perfectly landcanceled without the need for a FF, high landed advantage on shield, the ability to opt out of the second bair and rejump instead (which would still be possible with the iasa change). It is arguably the single most effective defensive-walling tactic, and has been jokingly compared favorably to other characters entire movesets by extremely knowledgeable players.

@Phootbag: If you're getting punished consistently for using bair in B+ I suggest you pick up another character. SH bair (bair x2, bair to rejump, bair shield pressure, etc) is like old Marth dancing blade or Ness fair. Its that good.

 

[ph00tbag]

DDD is very likely to see some changes. While I am loath to change ANY character at this point, there is an overwhelming consensus within the voting block of the backroom that DDD has elements of his moveset that necessitate a fix (bair and dair).

When these changes have been finalized I will post them here.

One that has near unanimous support (including from Glick, a top DDD+) is the removal of SH double bair, which I will making impossible by a single frame. This will be done by making a very minor change to the iasa (33-36). It is currently almost a perfect SHed aerial wall due to it having an amazing hitbox, amazing damage, quick (6 frame) startup, coming out TWICE with the second being nearly perfectly landcanceled without the need for a FF, high landed advantage on shield, the ability to opt out of the second bair and rejump instead (which would still be possible with the iasa change). It is arguably the single most effective defensive-walling tactic, and has been jokingly compared favorably to other characters entire movesets by extremely knowledgeable players.

@Phootbag: If you're getting punished consistently for using bair in B+ I suggest you pick up another character. SH bair (bair x2, bair to rejump, bair shield pressure, etc) is like old Marth dancing blade or Ness fair. Its that good.

Removing SH bairx2 is understandable, although I still think it's unnecessary.

I've been punished for bair because I play people who know how it works, and what moves can beat it, and in what situations. Maybe I'm limiting my use of it in the wrong situations, but I'm limiting it because I have been punished. For the record, I consider trading hits with a more damaging move to be punishment, so it's not like I'm being outright beaten, either. I think saying any move is better than most characters entirely is, while admittedly a joke, not very observant. Sure, some characters can't beat bair. But that's also just as possibly because they're lacking necessary tools to play the game as it could be because bair is too good. It could also be because people complain too much.

And insulting my ability is a very mature argumentative strategy. Thanks for showing that you possess the intellectual self-control to be involved in this endeavor.

 

[Plum]

There's no accounting for vastly over-generalizing the word, "approach," here. You're talking about walls, mostly. I never said DDD had bad walls. In fact, I'd say his walls are so good that most of the time it's not worth approaching if your opponent doesn't want to play campy.

When I say approach, I mean actually closing the gap to where you can really do damage. This means not only an option that can beat out projectiles and not be punishable, but also can get close quickly. None of DDD's aerials do that, because he has no air mobility, so I don't know why you'd mention his aerials. DC dtilt can do that, but is tremendously weak to aerial attacks, and most characters will be using that against DDD. DJ jab is good as well, but is similarly weak to air footsies. Suffice to say, running shield is DDD's most reliable approach. Everything else is mix-ups. I don't know why you don't see that.

Call it what you want, but when I utilize aerials and DC options I'm still effectively closing in the cap, applying pressure, forcing my opponent to react, and capitalizing on their next move. For me, that's what I call a good approach. When I wall with those same exact moves I'm doing it very differently; retreating aerials, retreating Ftilts, air camping, etc. Many of his moves can be used defensively, aggressively, and passively depending on how you go at the situation.

And lol at saying bair is broken. Just... lol. Maybe I'm only playing against those oh so rare characters that can punish it, but I've been punished for so many bairs. It's not as spammable as people think.

Its a frame 6 attack, its HUGELY disjointed (go look at the picture I posted earlier in the thread... that hitbox is far beyond the reach of his foot), the hitbox lingers for a long time, and it can be canceled into another Bair or jump. The only way something is beating out his Bair is a TP/high power projectile (lasers, charge shot etc.), an even more disjointed attack (Ike's Fair for example), invincibility/super armor, or poor spacing on your part. It is punishable, but so is every single move in the game. I know fully well that some characters can beat out his Bair, but as it stands right now it warps the matchups of those who can't into his favor to a degree that it should be fixed. Look at it this way; it is getting a buff to its WoP qualities

As far as Dair goes, there's the question of why you're getting hit by it. It has no range to the sides, just get out from under DDD and punish him for dairing. Seriously, "It's always been a dumb move" is a terrible reason for changing something, especially when you haven't even bothered to figure out a way around it.

Dair is going to be used in the exact same way as it is now. Its just getting a damage reduction. 17% for a move that combos no matter what % you're at, and sets up for further strings as well as kills is just too high. DDD has some insane damage output with all the power he's packing. When you factor in how early he kills as well it was just decided that he should take a little longer to bring up to kill percents. Wario had the same treatment not too long ago.

 

[cobaltblue]

Of course, it can't be because DDD is up against Ike, whose only way of getting around with any alacrity is Quick Draw. You haven't even played any DDD players, and it sounds like you don't play him yourself. Now why are you lecturing me about him, when I actually play him?

Sentence = lecture for you? I take it pursuing anything beyond a high school degree must have been tough for you then.

To make it more clear for you, I'm not saying he needs a nerf, buff, or change because of my limited experience fighting good D3s. I'm simply pointing out that the bird is not some poor slow mass who can't force opponents to come to him or make use of his air superiority to allow him to move.

 

[ph00tbag]

Call it what you want, but when I utilize aerials and DC options I'm still effectively closing in the cap, applying pressure, forcing my opponent to react, and capitalizing on their next move. For me, that's what I call a good approach. When I wall with those same exact moves I'm doing it very differently; retreating aerials, retreating Ftilts, air camping, etc. Many of his moves can be used defensively, aggressively, and passively depending on how you go at the situation.

I think I can see how you mean it as an approach when you put it that way. I would still never use a bair to cancel out a projectile and approach at the same time. There are some characters against whom that is a punishable action (Samus, for instance, or Olimar). The gap may become smaller, but that's rarely my intent if I'm trying to bair a projectile.

Its a frame 6 attack, its HUGELY disjointed (go look at the picture I posted earlier in the thread... that hitbox is far beyond the reach of his foot), the hitbox lingers for a long time, and it can be canceled into another Bair or jump. The only way something is beating out his Bair is a TP/high power projectile (lasers, charge shot etc.), an even more disjointed attack (Ike's Fair for example), invincibility/super armor, or poor spacing on your part. It is punishable, but so is every single move in the game. I know fully well that some characters can beat out his Bair, but as it stands right now it warps the matchups of those who can't into his favor to a degree that it should be fixed. Look at it this way; it is getting a buff to its WoP qualities

I'm not saying it's not good. But you said it yourself: it's possible to misspace bair. That in itself makes it not broken, IMO. Looking at your picture really only confirmed the weaknesses I suspected, unless his other foot is invincible, that means a lot of characters could probably punish bair by targeting his left foot. I think more characters than anticipated have the tools to do that, but even if they don't, I don't see why the existence of bad match-ups, even hard counters, is something to be particularly zealous about.

Dair is going to be used in the exact same way as it is now. Its just getting a damage reduction. 17% for a move that combos no matter what % you're at, and sets up for further strings as well as kills is just too high. DDD has some insane damage output with all the power he's packing. When you factor in how early he kills as well it was just decided that he should take a little longer to bring up to kill percents. Wario had the same treatment not too long ago.

I just don't think it's necessary. I mean, the Wario example is very different, since Wario is so much more capable of a rushdown aggressive style. DDD has a genuinely hard time keeping pace with some characters. The extra damage is because he has to wait so long to be able to deal it in the first place. Not to mention it's really seeming to be superfluous at this point. There have been so many damage nerfs rippling through the cast since the beginning at this point that I have to wonder why they were necessary to begin with.

 

[Plum]

After enough time for the changes to sink in, what do the other DDD players think of the new Dair and Bair?

Bair is still a good move. Its speed, and ability to double jump right out of it still make it a very safe poke even with less shield damage and range. It's not like it has poor range now anyways, its closer to DK's Bair now. His foot still gives him plenty of reach, he just lost the big disjoint surrounding it. He can WoP better now too with Bair strings carrying off stage for a wider range of percents.

Dair does everything it was doing earlier... just less damage building. Nothing to really say about this one, except that it takes longer to work somebody up to kill percents. Considering all the other buffs he got before these changes, I'm perfectly fine with waiting a little longer to land that Utilt or Fair for the kill.

 

[Veril]

Literally not a single person complained to me about DDD at Pound 4 and a lot of people were really supportive of how the change was carried out. I use DDD's SHDBair removal as an example of a change done the right way now.

How's the WoP looking? I don't have % ranges for it as a true combo yet.

 

[Alphatron]

This thread kind of died after the nerfs hit Dedede it seems.

Aside from Waddle Dee toss being utter garbage(as in, don't use it alot), I still think Dedede is cool.

 

[RPGsFTW]

King Dedede IS my most favorite Nintendo character, so far. I've always wanted him in Brawl, and when I got him, life was good, but vBrawl was terrible and it made Dedede unfun, though I still played him, just no infinites though.

I play Dedede in Brawl+, as I still like him a lot, but he just isn't as fun to me as other characters.

Also, does anybody know if Inhale Releasing works for Dedede in Brawl+?

 

[Plum]

The buffered Utilt out of an inhale? That works.
It's what's forcing me to play DDD on 100 buffer
I can't do it consistently enough without max buffer <_>

 

[Alphatron]

Approach options for DDD. Gogogogo.

 

[JCaesar]

Run->shield->grab

Oh in B+? Iunno...

 

[Plum]

Run->shield->grab

Oh in B+? Iunno...

It's funny that this still works amazingly against some characters who lack shield pressure.
Good luck doing this against somebody like Peach though... *watches Vanz and sad faces at her shield pressure*

DC Dtilt and Ftilt work well when you want to try to force a mistake or bait a reaction, though by themselves you can't followup. A smart opponent will more often than not be able to react and avoid putting themselves in a bad situation.

Anything involving an aerial followed with a double jump is great... you leave yourself with a lot of options and in a place where not too many characters would risk challenging you. Floating Dairs and advancing Bairs/Fairs are your friends.

You could approach with inhale against opponents who don't really have disjointed hitboxes up the wazoo. You could even B reverse an inhale to have the momentum shift carry you forward in the air. Kind of silly but it works as a mixup

 

[VietGeek]

run->dash cancel->look sexy
dash->dash again->do turnaround motion x50->taunt
sh dair->fullhop dair-> bair->RC (50 Heat)->bair

sh dair-> grab from foe's hard landing lag->stupid dthrow techchases/uthrow lulz->get them offstage->start winning

or

run->shield->grab->stupid dthrow techchases/uthrow lulz->get them offstage->start winning

start winning part very important obv

 

[Plum]

run->dash cancel->look sexy
dash->dash again->do turnaround motion x50->taunt
sh dair->fullhop dair-> bair->RC (50 Heat)->bair

sh dair-> grab from foe's hard landing lag->stupid dthrow techchases/uthrow lulz->get them offstage->start winning

or

run->shield->grab->stupid dthrow techchases/uthrow lulz->get them offstage->start winning

start winning part very important obv

pro

10pros

 

[Plum]

So FF Bair before it starts to tumble can combo into a grab... I love DDD

Anywho, I'm in the works on making a sexy guide to the best fatty around. Expect some legit legitness soon people.