King DDD+; rejoice for the chain grab!

[Plum]

Had a chance to play Guru's PT just now. (it was online, so take everything with a grain of salt... at least we're in the same state :V)

Basically, if you don't kill off Ivy right away you are in for a world of hurt.
Sure, once you get Ivy off stage its an easy gimp but **** does Ivy keep DDD out. She outranges DDD, out camps, and racks up damage so quickly. Its sort of like the Olimar matchup; get a gimp at all costs or just watch a stock go by T_T

Squirtle really isn't a problem. Unlike Ivy he really doesn't have the range to stop DDD. He's one of those characters where your best chance is to probably play gay and just lay down some walls of priority on him. Don't let Squirtle inside because we all know how great his combo game is. Almost as easy to gimp as Ivy too, and much easier to set one up on. Waterfall offers him great protection, but distance wise its crap; you can hit him out of it from above, so it is possible to Dair him out and then whack him with Fair or something. I would give DDD a slight advantage just because its too hard for Squirtle to get inside to actually do some hurt.

Charizard is pretty even, he has basically as much range as you though Fair is a pest. I did see Bair beating out his Fair, though a lot of the times it was the other way around too. Its probably all about who tosses it out first. I saw Rock Smash being beaten out by both Fair and Bair when spaced well. At early percents he combos you just as well as you can combo him, but at higher percents I think it becomes easier for DDD especially with Dair's set KB. He can WoP you, but he doesn't have enough jumps to really carry you out all the way. It's like two Fairs, then he has to retreat back to the ledge with his last jump to make it back. Having more jumps than him is a big help.

Overall I would say PT has the advantage because of Ivy... Choosing him first makes sure you play Ivy at least twice during the match, so despite how well you can do against Squirtle and Zard its all Ivy this match.

 

[CyberGlitch]

I still find it kind of odd that DDD was the only character with a MASSIVE change to his game with the f-smash. Granted f-smash was one of the most terrible moves in the game, why wasn't anything done to the moves that are arguably worse than the f-smash? Like Ganon's u-tilit and Jiggs Sing to name some. I know that the team has been trying to figure out ways to fix these moves, but if something like this was done to DDD, then I don't see why it can't be done to characters that are much worse off than DDD.

Also, I happened to notice that DDD does additional damage to characters when their sheilds are put up with his f-tilt. I'm sorry but that just seems unnecessary. Why is one of the fastest, most ranged moves in the game do that much additional damage to sheilded characters? Again, couldn't changes like this be given to characters that are in worse positions than DDD? Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems that DDD's changes were given to him so quickly, so why not give something like that to others?

The changes were put in after at least a month of testing. Note that these changes couldn't be put in before because we didn't have the capabilities to change hitboxes and shield damage in such a way before PSA. Dedede's Fsmash change, to my knowledge, was put in not only to make the move more useful, but also to give him a defense against campers who just run about to the opposite side of the stage and spam (which can be effective, given how big a target he is). The increased Forward Tilt damage prevents people from punishing the move out of shield even when it's used at optimal range. Since characters just need to predict it and jump to avoid it, it is not overpowered.

Jigglypuff's Rest already got a huge buff. Don't forget it. If it was made easier to his with, or had some unexplained blast zone around it, it would probably be overpowered. It's a situational kill move, that's what it's supposed to be. Ganon's Up Tilt has not been changed because it can be used situationally, and because turning it into a quicker attack with lower knockback just makes it a similar move to either of his smashes. Maybe giving him a flub hitbox like Dedede wouldn't be too bad...but it would homogenize the moves a bit. Keep in mind that Dedede's flub hit was already there, they just enlarged its hitbox.

That's just my loosely informed 2 cents.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Truthfully, I've never found Dedede to have a hard time against Ivysaur. My friend who plays the Ivysaur hates fighting Dedede with him because he can be shield grabbed so easily, which leads to him being off stage, then him being killed, via edge guarding. Also to note, my friend played JUST Ivysaur, so it gives me more reason to say this. Though, personally I don't think ANY of Pokemon Trainers pokemon give Dedede a hard time.

 

[Plum]

Guru's Ivy was keeping me out like a madman.
Ivy has more range, and his low ALR was letting Guru consistently outspace me and force me back out.
It was basically the fact that I couldn't do much of anything to get past Ivy's zoning game, and the saving grace was Ivy's recovery.

I would love to see some vids if possible to see if either I'm doing something wrong, or your friend's Ivy is doing something different from Guru.

I would agree that the other Pogeys really give DDD too much trouble.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Unfortunately, I don't have any vids vs him at the moment. I also don't know how well his Ivy compares to Guru's, but he recovered pretty well, with Dair spam -> Razor Leaf -> Up-B. I was surprised that the Dair spam was so effective sometimes.

I'm currently saving the replays that I can, when I remember, that is. And hopefully I'll be able to borrow my friend's Dazzle to upload them sometime.

The other thing is that my friend doesn't really play Ivy anymore as of recent. He swapped to Lucas, and does pretty **** good with him. Zair -> Down-B chase kill, lol.

 

[GHNeko]

Zair -> Down-B chase kill, lol.

wat

10wats

 

[RPGsFTW]

He swapped to Lucas, and does pretty **** good with him. Zair -> Down-B chase kill, lol.

I was talking about how my friend swapped from playing an ok Ivysaur, to a mean (good) Lucas.

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

I was talking about how my friend swapped from playing an ok Ivysaur, to a mean (good) Lucas.

I'm pretty sure Neko meant how did he kill you with zair -> Down B. I'm pretty unfamiliar with Lucas myself, but I don't think PSI magnet could kill...

 

[Shell]

You thought wrong. :3

It's got okay base and moderate growth, but it's sending angle is nearly horizontal (without DI, after gravity's factored in), so it can put a lot of hurt on characters with weak recoveries, either leading to a chance to edge-guard a low recovery or just a straight up kill.

For that to outright kill DDD would likely require a percent above 120, I'd think. Do you remember what it was? Just curious.

 

[ph00tbag]

You thought wrong. :3

It's got okay base and moderate growth, but it's sending angle is nearly horizontal (without DI, after gravity's factored in), so it can put a lot of hurt on characters with weak recoveries, either leading to a chance to edge-guard a low recovery or just a straight up kill.

For that to outright kill DDD would likely require a percent above 120, I'd think. Do you remember what it was? Just curious.

Now I know why it whomped the **** out of a fox I used it on the other day. I thought he had just DI'd badly.

 

[RPGsFTW]

For that to outright kill DDD would likely require a percent above 120, I'd think. Do you remember what it was? Just curious.

I'm pretty sure I wasn't Dedede when I was killed by it. I was talking about Dedede just for the Pokemon Trainer discussion.

If I remember correctly, I was Wario, and at the right side of some stage, I think Pokemon Stadium 2. And like you said, I'm pretty sure I died around 100ish %.

 

[goodoldganon]

Quake Hammer + Target Test = LOL

 

[GHNeko]

...no ****ing Way.

 

[goodoldganon]

I **** you not

 

[CloneHat]

WOW! IN-CREDIBLE!

I'm so doing this.

 

[AtotheZ]

Dedede is so good in brawl +

 

[GHNeko]

My D3 sucks. I cant push him to full potential. ;__;

Tips plz.

 

[AtotheZ]

My D3 sucks. I cant push him to full potential. ;__;

Tips plz.

I haven't played the new B+ much, but I tried it a lot today. A lot of vbrawl dedede strategies work, but now he can get some really nice combos with dair and uptilt. you can throw in an nair to and follow up with another aerial depending on DI. His bair still has insane priority and I think it can lead to a grab now. Dthrow is also essential, being able to be lead to many things. you can fsmash immediately after, and even though they will most likely roll/tech away, they will trip putting them in the same position . Also normal bair for edgeguarding, with the addition of dtilt.

I hope this helps.

 

[GHNeko]

I mainly just dont know when to use utilt and its hitboxes, how to properly use nair, AC Fair and Dair properly, and use inhale more.

 

[Plum]

I mainly just dont know when to use utilt and its hitboxes, how to properly use nair, AC Fair and Dair properly, and use inhale more.

As far as Utilt goes it is my main source of platform abuse. Great vertical coverage but little horizontal range in comparison. I really tend to stay away from it on a stage like FD but it still has uses. Dair combos into Utilt and Nair does at the right percents, and of course its kill power.

I'm not really the biggest fan of Nair because of its priority compared to other options. It is a good combo starter linking into a grab, Utilt or other aerials depending on %, so it definitely has uses when you hit with it. I can't say as to hitting with it though.

AC Fair is a great approach option. AC Dair is a good combo starter but Fair's big advantage is its nice disjointed range. A lot of characters will have a tough time getting through a good near lagless approach.

Inhale... not too much to say. Free damage, super armor on start like a grab, and you can use it in the air. :V

 

[CloneHat]

I think the first hit of nair isn't that great for combos, but the second hit at high percents...

Also, dthrow off the edge>follow DI>dair>fair is too awesome.

 

[Plum]

Early %'s first hit Nair does everything a weak hit Nair does at higher percents, so it isn't like its useless.

I think that's my biggest gripe with Nair. At higher %'s there's really no way to land a weak hit Nair because you can't really combo into it, and it doesn't have enough priority to really get through much at all, at least in comparison to Bair, Fair, and Dair.

 

[AtotheZ]

bair is always a safer approach then fair

 

[GHNeko]

But I think fair reaps superior rewards. :V

 

[Plum]

Fair's hitbox also provides you with much better cover than Bair, with as much horizontal (maybe more?) range and great vertical range too. At the very least, its more disjointed than Bair which is somewhat similar in disjointedness as Kirby's old Bair.
And a lot of times you have to fastfall Bair to hit the extreme shorties with Bair, and that does leave you open for punishment, where as approaching with AC Fair gives you as lagless of an approach option as you can get. Fair ends just before you hit the ground, leaving you only with the 2 frames of default soft landing lag (iirc its only 2 frames).

There's no definitive best option.
Dair gives you a great combo starter, and disjointed coverage from below that sucks them up into some pain. Downside being its horizontal range, and multihits leaves you room to escape.
Bair is very quick, and iirc it hits on frame 6, much more disjointed than a move like it should be, and is like a wall of priority. It can be outranged though, and does extend his hurtbox a little bit. Apparently even Sonic can outrange Bair with his own, which surprised me.
Fair gives you a huge disjointed hitbox in front of you, well above you, and a little below you giving excellent coverage. AC Fair for practically zero endlag, but it has more startup than Bair or Dair. IMO if Fair had Bair's speed and its hitbox it would easily be his best option, but the fairly slow startup keeps it in level with the other two.
And that's just approaching from the air. Dash canceled options, just simple running and shielding, abusing his grab, or whatever else have you give him plenty of approach options. And that's definitely great, because it leaves his approach very unpredictable assuming you actually take advantage of every one of his options.

 

[AtotheZ]

because bair is so quick it is overall better than fair. fair definitely is useful but it lacks the hitstun it needs. bair can practically force your opponent to approach, and it makes it really hard to do so. Sonics bair may outrange it, but it doesn't outprioritize it. Fair is always good for mixup though, but I prefer bair>dair>whatever combo.

 

[GHNeko]

Fair can WOP >_>

also, just because it is faster doesnt mean its overall better. Fair has a decent list of things over bair and vise versa.

 

[RPGsFTW]

Dedede's Bair has sex kick properties if you guys remember. I'm pretty sure that helps contribute to its useful factor. =P

Also, ledge hopped Dair -> Fair/whatever is useful. Remember that.

 

[JCaesar]

Bair lingers a loooong time. Fair doesn't. Bair > fair.

When I'm playing against DDD I always have a much harder time dealing with bair.

 

[ph00tbag]

Fair has always seemed better for surprising my opponents than anything. Bair just seems to have hitbox that's more conducive to walling.

 

[Plum]

Overall I would agree that Bair is the better aerial, but by no means is that the end-all, be-all.
I think Bair is just better overall because its so quick, and the hitbox is out longer, but its not like Bair is better in every situation.

Fair's hitbox is more disjointed, and covers DDD much better than Bair does (which is saying something considering how good Bair's hitbox is), WoP's just as well if not better, higher damage output, and its another good approach option.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not pertaining to the bair/fair argument, I'd like to mention that uair is really good for baiting airdodges that you can punish with utilt. Keep it in mind.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I've been using PSAMod and have come up with this change for Dedede's down throw that I really like:

new changes:

weight-dependent KB is removed
BKB=60
KBG=75
trajectory=70

it has a lot of varied uses and it's really fun IMO

 

[kciD]

I'm having a lot of trouble against ROB. Between the laser and top, I can't get inside, and when I get close his Fair and Dsmash knock me away again. Especially on FD, but even with platforms he just hides under one until I try to get close again. I've got nothing to attack from far away, his Fsmash and waddles are too slow to do anything. Help!

 

[goodoldganon]

So I picked up D3 recently because he has some actual depth to him unlike his vBrawl chain grab nonsense. I like him a lot but as the night went on my friends realized that D3 lacks any form of a solid approach. I could not find a safe approach to people that camped me. Sure I can throw minions but they aren't hard to avoid and if they had a good projectile I just got rolled because of my big size.

When I get in there and start a combo he can put out some sick damage fast but besides for gimping I couldn't outright kill anyone till the mid 130%. Sure U-tilt is nice if they leave them selves open but D3's poke game seems to have some holes in it that any characters faster then Bowser can get inside and start a combo, and let's not forget how easy it is to combo fatties.

So I guess my question is, how do you guys approach with D3. He doesn't have raw power to eat attacks like Ganondorf or a safe aerial like Ike. He also gets out camped by even mediocre speed characters. So I ask again:

What are D3s approach moves?
What are some bread and butter combos?
How do I kill people that can't be gimped/stick to the center?

D3 is really fun it just seems he has a gaping hole in his whole offense I couldn't figure out how to fill.

 

[kciD]

Well, as you can see by my first post, the camping is an issue for me, as well.

I like to try to approach from above my opponent, because Dair is friggin awesome. Bair is also a good approach tool. I also use Ftilt quite a bit to poke the opponent away if they try to get too close, but DDD's grab range is also very very good.

Dair>Utilt, Dair>Fair, Dair>Bair, Uthrow>Uair are some good basic combos. I like to Dthrow>Fsmash, and hold the smash for different periods of time, trying to get them to at least get hit by the quake box (and hope they run into it, but that usually doesn't happen).

 

[JCaesar]

Autocanceled fair, poke with bair, drill them with repeated dairs, poke with ftilt, suck, DDD has a lot of choices. His best approach is probably just to run up and shield, because he grab game is second to none (ok, Oli...) and he has fantastic OOS options.

Fair, bair, utilt, and fthrow all kill reliably.

 

[ph00tbag]

Utilt will be a good KO move to keep in mind. Heavy floaties like ROB die off the top before they die off the side most of the time.

I dunno if DDD's ftilt out-ranges ROBs, but if it does, that's a good move to keep in mind.

 

[Alphatron]

How do you guys feel about still speeding up DDD's SideB waddle toss? Cooldown increased after he actually throws to compensate.

 

[ph00tbag]

Not necessary, I don't think. DDD's a solid character. His only problem is a lack of approach, and that's more to do with his mobility, than anything. Just learn his pokes, and you should be alright.