Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
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- 1993-9028-0439
(Copy and pasted and continued from a discussion I began in my crew thread)
I don't find Marth any less effective than the rest of the S-Tier. I mean, they do call it the "Sacred Seven" for a reason. At first I was content with saying that Marth wasn't S-Tier material, but it seems that similarly to Melee days, at highest level mastery, Marth is really capable of some beast stuff. I mean, it's so fun sitting there, wrecking my opponent while they're like "dang, I can't do anything". I rarely lose unless either
A) The player is legendarily good, in which case the characters don't really have much to do with the result
B) The player is using MK, who counters Marth better than Snake does.
Supposedly D3 counters Marth, but I've always wrecked D3s, which leads me to believe that most Marth's simply don't know the matchup. I can't really argue that D3's don't know the match-up vs. Marth, because they are supposed to have the advantage, and I still destroy D3s that I fight often, and have even match-up exp with. Marth really seems to wreck most of the cast, considering that when played optimally, the opponent cannot approach, or even defend. Marth seriously does seem to apply the best shield pressure in the game, even over MK (MK is just stupidly fast and hard to punish.) Shield works for a very short time vs Marth, because after he Fair you and you can't do anything, and then dtilts you, and you still can't do anything, and your shield is reduced to the point where you aren't able continue using it safely.
Marth's weaknesses, and why they don't seem to matter.
A) No safe kill moves. Kill moves are bad anyway
I manage to land tipper Nairs, and gimps VERY frequently, even against the best of players. Once habits and reactions are read, you can still land the occasional dsmash/usmash. Marth can refresh his moveset very easily, through the use of Dancing Blade and grab pummels. If Marth doesn't focus on killing, he can remain safe, and minimize his damage while racking up his opponent's damage to the point where they will be very easily K.O.ed. It's basically when Marth is going to the kill is when takes the most damage. Simply opting not to do this will allow Marth to remain safe. Usually, a Fair will K.O. around 140, and this shouldn't be that hard for Marth to pull off. Uair and Utilt also can kill around here. Dolphin Slash is an amazing finisher with invincibility, and basically ***** you if you hit Marth's shield.
B) Marth's recovery sucks. Marth is easily gimpable.
Learn to DI. Edgeguarding Marth with any character other than MK is generally not safe (obviously, there are exceptions). With the correct usage of the second jump, Marth can generally hit his opponent on the way back to the stage before they hit him. Proper DI is essential for playing Marth, but once mastered, makes his recovery excellent, as he has such amazing aerial mobility, and can usually fall back to the stage and make it without even using both his second jump and UpB. His SideB also gives him a vertical boost if used at the height of his jump. Shieldbreaker and B reversal also assist in recovery when used correctly.
C) Marth can't deal with projectiles, Marth gets camped.
Lrn2prfectshild.
Seriously. At this point, perfect shield should be second nature. It takes something like 2 frames to simply erase the enemy projectile hitbox off the map, and can be done while walking toward your opponent. Dancing Blade comes out frame 4. There are no moves in the game with frame advantage, and very few (if any) frame traps work against perfect shield. Learning when to actually play aggressively also helps.
Also, Marth himself can camp and plank like a byatch. He recycles the edge stupidly well, and can continue to zone FROM the ledge, against the vast majority of characters. He can Fair/Uair from the ledge back to the ledge, as well as ledgehop aerial. Dancing Blade allows him to stall in midair so that he can wait out edgehogs. Shield breaker has ******** range, and can be thrown from the ledge to destroy the obvious shield attempt of the expected Fair(I really break OD shields like this). Ledgehop reverse counter is moderately safe.
On the stage, Marth doesn't have to approach. If you have a projectile, he can camp perfect shields. If not, just try getting in a Fair wall, mixed with Dtilts, Fairs, Nairs, and random Dancing Blades. Very few characters not named Metaknight or Snake can safely penetrate this without a projectile, and some can't even with a projectile.
D) Marth is really light
He's also really fast and has a lot of range. Good luck landing kill moves. Hell, some kill moves that are safe on ordinary characters aren't safe against Marth, just because he's so fast and has so much range. Generally, one cannot rely on traditional safe kill methods against Marth, and risky stuff runs the risk of getting countered.
G) Marth's grabs suck
True, but Marth also has shield breaker to deal with shielding opponents, and that works on the ground and in the air. Shield breaker can cause complete comebacks, as a broken shield is generally a stock against Marth. Also, Marth's grabs are amazing sets, and Marth can juggle in Brawl better than any other character besides MK (I think). Fastfalled Uair into Utilt, Dancing Blade up finish, or uthrow beats out MANY landing options, and requires an opponent to have a considerable amount of midair maneuverability or go to the ledge (which is just as bad vs Marth). Marth's fthrow almost always forces your opponent to choose one of two options: airdodge or eat Fair. Once this is initialized, you can often regrab, or even use a smash attack, or alter the timing of your aerial. Marth's Uair is amazing as it's very fast, autocancels, and hits behind him, making it very good for popping your opponent into the air.
Seriously, Marth is amazing. He actually has combos while the opponent is at low or mid percents, and can set up VERY dangerous situations very quickly, resulting in the opponent taking 40-60 percent relatively quickly. He has AMAZING opening combos, since Fair combos into like everything at 0, and Fthrow and Dthrow are Godly sets. He can attack from a safe distance, and prevent his opponent from approaching. He can edgeguard for ******** amounts of damage, and EASILY send his opponent back onto the ledge with such an amazing pressure game. He has no counter except for MK. He ***** on most stages, both neutral and counterpick.
I personally think he's worst on Frigate Orpheon, due to the fact that there's no ledge on ONE part of the stage, and he can lose momentum very quickly. However, simply mastering this stage can result in the player with greater mastery taking control here, and this really has very little to do with the weakness of Marth. Furthermore, against many opponents, Marth can use this to his advantage, as he can more relentlessly edgeguard, and secure a vast amount of percent this way.
Marth's second worst stage may be Pokemon Stadium 2, as it completely disrupts his spacing during every transformation. To play well on this stage requires practice, which is usually neglected, due to the fact this stage is usually banned.
Intelligent banning is very easy for Marth, as he is able to compete with many characters on their some of their best counterpicks, and ban the worst options.
Seriously, what constitutes an S-Tier character? Marth even has tourney placings to keep him near the top. Marth has the 6th best tourney placings according to Ankoku's ranking list, outplacing Falco, and R.O.B.. Many times, when I try to argue "No character johns, Marth isn't that broken," I'm at a loss to explain why Marth isn't broken, and the only people that don't really complain are the MK mains.
Generally people say, "Well S-Tier characters have an edge that makes them broken. MK has Tornado and Shuttle Loop in addition to flight, speed, and a sword. Snake has weight and power in addition to grenades. Falco has lasers and a chaingrab, R.O.B. has an amazing recovery and two great projectiles, D3 has a great recovery, and a chaingrab from most percentages on the most of the cast. G&W is ungimpable and has stupidly good finishers, as well as the broken Bair and amesome tilts (he's just stupid and good, lol).
Well, Marth has a sword, speed, and stupidly good edgeguarding. As for his edge, I'd say it's Dolphin Slash. Marth really does get out of virtually everything. Anytime I appear to be open, I can simply repel my opponent with Dolphin Slash which has about the same knockback as an untipped fsmash and deals 13% when fresh. It can be done out of shield, and has invincibility, so it beats out almost all options, and ignores priority. Seriously, this move is stupidly good.
Why ISN'T Marth considered to be S-tier, in our current tier format? If not S-Tier, then at least in a more selective A-Tier. IMO from a Marth player's perspective, MK should be SS-tier , and Snake should lead S-tier, with Game and Watch and Falco accompanying him. Marth, Diddy, R.O.B., Lucario, Wario, and Olimar should comprise the A-Tier, as no other character is as competitively viable as them, except arguably Kirby and DK (and I hear Peach). Below this, I believe the game is still too young to say for sure.
As far as our current silly tier list goes, Marth is capable of beating all S-tier characters except MK, and can systematically dissect all of their playstyles. In conclusion, he's just GOOD.
I don't find Marth any less effective than the rest of the S-Tier. I mean, they do call it the "Sacred Seven" for a reason. At first I was content with saying that Marth wasn't S-Tier material, but it seems that similarly to Melee days, at highest level mastery, Marth is really capable of some beast stuff. I mean, it's so fun sitting there, wrecking my opponent while they're like "dang, I can't do anything". I rarely lose unless either
A) The player is legendarily good, in which case the characters don't really have much to do with the result
B) The player is using MK, who counters Marth better than Snake does.
Supposedly D3 counters Marth, but I've always wrecked D3s, which leads me to believe that most Marth's simply don't know the matchup. I can't really argue that D3's don't know the match-up vs. Marth, because they are supposed to have the advantage, and I still destroy D3s that I fight often, and have even match-up exp with. Marth really seems to wreck most of the cast, considering that when played optimally, the opponent cannot approach, or even defend. Marth seriously does seem to apply the best shield pressure in the game, even over MK (MK is just stupidly fast and hard to punish.) Shield works for a very short time vs Marth, because after he Fair you and you can't do anything, and then dtilts you, and you still can't do anything, and your shield is reduced to the point where you aren't able continue using it safely.
Marth's weaknesses, and why they don't seem to matter.
A) No safe kill moves. Kill moves are bad anyway
I manage to land tipper Nairs, and gimps VERY frequently, even against the best of players. Once habits and reactions are read, you can still land the occasional dsmash/usmash. Marth can refresh his moveset very easily, through the use of Dancing Blade and grab pummels. If Marth doesn't focus on killing, he can remain safe, and minimize his damage while racking up his opponent's damage to the point where they will be very easily K.O.ed. It's basically when Marth is going to the kill is when takes the most damage. Simply opting not to do this will allow Marth to remain safe. Usually, a Fair will K.O. around 140, and this shouldn't be that hard for Marth to pull off. Uair and Utilt also can kill around here. Dolphin Slash is an amazing finisher with invincibility, and basically ***** you if you hit Marth's shield.
B) Marth's recovery sucks. Marth is easily gimpable.
Learn to DI. Edgeguarding Marth with any character other than MK is generally not safe (obviously, there are exceptions). With the correct usage of the second jump, Marth can generally hit his opponent on the way back to the stage before they hit him. Proper DI is essential for playing Marth, but once mastered, makes his recovery excellent, as he has such amazing aerial mobility, and can usually fall back to the stage and make it without even using both his second jump and UpB. His SideB also gives him a vertical boost if used at the height of his jump. Shieldbreaker and B reversal also assist in recovery when used correctly.
C) Marth can't deal with projectiles, Marth gets camped.
Lrn2prfectshild.
Seriously. At this point, perfect shield should be second nature. It takes something like 2 frames to simply erase the enemy projectile hitbox off the map, and can be done while walking toward your opponent. Dancing Blade comes out frame 4. There are no moves in the game with frame advantage, and very few (if any) frame traps work against perfect shield. Learning when to actually play aggressively also helps.
Also, Marth himself can camp and plank like a byatch. He recycles the edge stupidly well, and can continue to zone FROM the ledge, against the vast majority of characters. He can Fair/Uair from the ledge back to the ledge, as well as ledgehop aerial. Dancing Blade allows him to stall in midair so that he can wait out edgehogs. Shield breaker has ******** range, and can be thrown from the ledge to destroy the obvious shield attempt of the expected Fair(I really break OD shields like this). Ledgehop reverse counter is moderately safe.
On the stage, Marth doesn't have to approach. If you have a projectile, he can camp perfect shields. If not, just try getting in a Fair wall, mixed with Dtilts, Fairs, Nairs, and random Dancing Blades. Very few characters not named Metaknight or Snake can safely penetrate this without a projectile, and some can't even with a projectile.
D) Marth is really light
He's also really fast and has a lot of range. Good luck landing kill moves. Hell, some kill moves that are safe on ordinary characters aren't safe against Marth, just because he's so fast and has so much range. Generally, one cannot rely on traditional safe kill methods against Marth, and risky stuff runs the risk of getting countered.
G) Marth's grabs suck
True, but Marth also has shield breaker to deal with shielding opponents, and that works on the ground and in the air. Shield breaker can cause complete comebacks, as a broken shield is generally a stock against Marth. Also, Marth's grabs are amazing sets, and Marth can juggle in Brawl better than any other character besides MK (I think). Fastfalled Uair into Utilt, Dancing Blade up finish, or uthrow beats out MANY landing options, and requires an opponent to have a considerable amount of midair maneuverability or go to the ledge (which is just as bad vs Marth). Marth's fthrow almost always forces your opponent to choose one of two options: airdodge or eat Fair. Once this is initialized, you can often regrab, or even use a smash attack, or alter the timing of your aerial. Marth's Uair is amazing as it's very fast, autocancels, and hits behind him, making it very good for popping your opponent into the air.
Seriously, Marth is amazing. He actually has combos while the opponent is at low or mid percents, and can set up VERY dangerous situations very quickly, resulting in the opponent taking 40-60 percent relatively quickly. He has AMAZING opening combos, since Fair combos into like everything at 0, and Fthrow and Dthrow are Godly sets. He can attack from a safe distance, and prevent his opponent from approaching. He can edgeguard for ******** amounts of damage, and EASILY send his opponent back onto the ledge with such an amazing pressure game. He has no counter except for MK. He ***** on most stages, both neutral and counterpick.
I personally think he's worst on Frigate Orpheon, due to the fact that there's no ledge on ONE part of the stage, and he can lose momentum very quickly. However, simply mastering this stage can result in the player with greater mastery taking control here, and this really has very little to do with the weakness of Marth. Furthermore, against many opponents, Marth can use this to his advantage, as he can more relentlessly edgeguard, and secure a vast amount of percent this way.
Marth's second worst stage may be Pokemon Stadium 2, as it completely disrupts his spacing during every transformation. To play well on this stage requires practice, which is usually neglected, due to the fact this stage is usually banned.
Intelligent banning is very easy for Marth, as he is able to compete with many characters on their some of their best counterpicks, and ban the worst options.
Seriously, what constitutes an S-Tier character? Marth even has tourney placings to keep him near the top. Marth has the 6th best tourney placings according to Ankoku's ranking list, outplacing Falco, and R.O.B.. Many times, when I try to argue "No character johns, Marth isn't that broken," I'm at a loss to explain why Marth isn't broken, and the only people that don't really complain are the MK mains.
Generally people say, "Well S-Tier characters have an edge that makes them broken. MK has Tornado and Shuttle Loop in addition to flight, speed, and a sword. Snake has weight and power in addition to grenades. Falco has lasers and a chaingrab, R.O.B. has an amazing recovery and two great projectiles, D3 has a great recovery, and a chaingrab from most percentages on the most of the cast. G&W is ungimpable and has stupidly good finishers, as well as the broken Bair and amesome tilts (he's just stupid and good, lol).
Well, Marth has a sword, speed, and stupidly good edgeguarding. As for his edge, I'd say it's Dolphin Slash. Marth really does get out of virtually everything. Anytime I appear to be open, I can simply repel my opponent with Dolphin Slash which has about the same knockback as an untipped fsmash and deals 13% when fresh. It can be done out of shield, and has invincibility, so it beats out almost all options, and ignores priority. Seriously, this move is stupidly good.
Why ISN'T Marth considered to be S-tier, in our current tier format? If not S-Tier, then at least in a more selective A-Tier. IMO from a Marth player's perspective, MK should be SS-tier , and Snake should lead S-tier, with Game and Watch and Falco accompanying him. Marth, Diddy, R.O.B., Lucario, Wario, and Olimar should comprise the A-Tier, as no other character is as competitively viable as them, except arguably Kirby and DK (and I hear Peach). Below this, I believe the game is still too young to say for sure.
As far as our current silly tier list goes, Marth is capable of beating all S-tier characters except MK, and can systematically dissect all of their playstyles. In conclusion, he's just GOOD.
