Inferno's Decarde, The Bowser Video & Critique Thread

[Zigsta]

not agaisnt sonic

Teehee, I didn't realize it was versus a Sonic. XD

Some critique:

Don't use bair at low percents when you're gonna land on the ground, as you did in match 1 early on. That gets you punished, as it did this time.

If Sonic's doing that invincibility thing, use Firebreath or just run.

Around the :50 mark in match one, Sonic landed next to you and shielded. You shielded, and your back was to him. Don't forget we can Klaw out of shield. Would've done wonders there. If someone shields next to you, Klaw them.

When you powershielded before you lost your second stock, you should've Fortressed or Klawed OoS. Both come out much faster than nair.

I'm not sure if bair helps for momentum cancelling. I always just fair.

In general you seemed to run into silly stuff game 1, probably just because you're not used to Bowser's spacing yet.

Game 2--Around the 3:45ish mark, you upaired, and Sonic airdodged. Don't forget that upair is a GREAT frametrap. You can follow up with any aerial after that. Upair baits work really well because of this.

That said, you upair a bit too much. I usually save upairs for when there's NOT a platform directly beneath my opponent. See, if there's a platform relatively close to them, they can fastfall airdodge to shield, and then you both lose your frame trap AND suffer ending lag from upair. Pressure opponents on platforms instead with upsmash or uptilt. If they slip off, you can follow with ftilt, fsmash, or Klaw.

A little bit before that (I forget the exact mark, sorry!), you powershielded Sonic's upair and didn't do anything. When someone attacks you with an aerial from below while you're on a platform and you power shield, ALWAYS follow up with Fortress OoS. It'll pop the opponent up and let you either follow up or get off the platform.

In general, you played too aggressively. Sonic is a funky MU--he's moving around super fast, but don't let his gameplay affect your pace. Take it slower and remember Klaw beats just about everything Sonic does.

I'll get around to the rest of your matches. P1, you too. I just put more priority towards offline matches.

Yo Espy, your character sucks.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

i disagree with you about the platform pressure bit zigsta

i find short hop klaw to be the best option when your opponent is stuck above you since most players get scared and just stay in their shield. sometimes people will try to roll/spotdodge but thats just something you gotta keep in mind so you can land an uptilt/upsmash when theyre at kill percents

 

[Zigsta]

SH Klaw is best used against people who don't know the MU well. Once people realize shielding isn't safe against Bowser, jumping up just puts you in a worse position.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

SH Klaw is best used against people who don't know the MU well.

exactly, thats like 99% of brawl players

 

[Zigsta]

exactly, thats like 99% of brawl players

When you first play them, yeah. The best adapt fairly quickly, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Cassius.]

zigsta if they're on the platform what can they honestly do

once you see them not shielding anymore then we go for what we originally intended to do and upsmash/tilt.

if they jump off then...whatever

win, yes?

 

[Player-1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ0Xy7P5ipw

Can I get some critique? I know it's only 1 match and wifi at that, but I plan on getting some more up soon

 

[Zigsta]

zigsta if they're on the platform what can they honestly do

once you see them not shielding anymore then we go for what we originally intended to do and upsmash/tilt.

if they jump off then...whatever

win, yes?

I basically don't like being on platforms as Bowser since he doesn't have as many options when someone is below him, so I rarely jump up when pressuring someone on a platform above me.

If anything, I prefer to pressure with upsmash or uptilt first so that my opponent assumes that's always how I'll attack when they're on a platform above me. That way I can catch them shielding and then SH Klaw. I do that.

So basically SH Klaw isn't my first option.

P1, I'll get to your video sometime early this week. I need to run some errands after work tomorrow, else I'd say tomorrow for sure.

 

[Cassius.]

you wouldn't end up on the platform if you SH Klaw though...it's a short hop, Bowser's short hop doesn't get him on top of any platforms on any stage.

If anything, I prefer to pressure with upsmash or uptilt first so that my opponent assumes that's always how I'll attack when they're on a platform above me. That way I can catch them shielding and then SH Klaw. I do that.

My problem with this is: how many times/how long are you willing to usmash/tilt in order to make your opponent "assume that's how you'll always attack"? why not just go for the better option and then when they stop shielding go for a kill move, which is usmash/utilt. wouldn't klaw be stale by that time anyway? (unless you've been screwing around/just died or something)

to each his own i guess. i have more faith in klaw than any other move though, i've been preaching it ever since i saw vex do it...lol

edit: i guess im forgetting the main purpose of those two moves, right? to force the opponent off of the platform in a falling manner so we can read their techroll or whatever if they do happen to shield.

i dunno. it does suck *** how bowser's short hop doesn't get him anywhere near the platform really but klaw covers the whole damn thing, so hey.

 

[_Dice]

Also zigsta remember that command grabs beat invincible spindash. but only command grabs everythign else clanks at best. so klaw works, as well as diddy side B lucario ect.

 

[Cassius.]

and player-1 ill critique the video tomorrow

 

[Zigsta]

I don't really have a set number, per se--I just get a feel for it.

@Dice--Yeah, it's really one of those things I'd just need to practice the timing of for a while in order to do it consistently in tournament. Now I'd just ban Yoshi's and never have to worry about it since Pictochat isn't legal anymore.

 

[Cassius.]

I wasn't asking for a number -_-

just hypothetically and methodically speaking

 

[Player-1]

Alright, thanks zig and limit.

 

[Cassius.]

okay well in the first few seconds of the video i noticed the spotdodging. bowser's spotdodge isn't that good but diddy can pick apart a shield camping bowser so i guess you're fine.

don't use bair so leisurely, the lag is ugly.

you know that you can land on top of a banana safely with klaw right? i saw there were times a banana would be emptily laying there and you'd land in front of it.

klaw is a problem for diddy altogether, i would have liked to see more usage of it, but ftilt's fine i guess. trust me you get a lot of mileage out of it, it's a great move..lol

you had some good patience too.

with bananas, i saw you do it once, when bowser does a toss while dashing he gets a little boost out of it. it sets up for a lot of cool things if you hit diddy with the banana because he'll be right in your face.

also im not sure if it's because of wifi or not but your reactions on up-b oos seem a bit slow

at 4:58 in the video i would have up-b then as opposed to grabbing the banana, it would have been free damage, plus it could have got you in the zone for a bowsercide. i dunno

those airdodges to grab the bananas supposed to be z-grabs right? that's the better option lol

nice finish at the end.

idk overall i'd say use more klaw, that's about it...lol everything else like the faster reactions and stuff like that will come the more you use bowser, it's nothing i can really explain

 

[Player-1]

Which airdodges? I'm a PRed Diddy player and I find when trying to grab your opponent's bananas in the air pretty hard to z catch, especially on wifi so I usually airdodge to get opponent's bananas, if it's my own then I usually z catch. If you're talking about picking them up from the ground, IDK. With Diddy it's pretty impractical because you always have better options to pick them off the ground with. I really don't see any point at all to z catching a banana from the ground with any character. This was my first time playing a Diddy so in the beginning I noticed that tossing them from the ground wasn't that great of an idea and too slow, but with Bowser's great mobility I found it really good from the air to give it more of a glidetoss effect. Yoshi's and Ness' do it that way as well, but it works better for them because it cancels their midair jumps and then this combined with Bowser's good range of attacks I found it worked well. I accidentally did that one dash throw, but when I did do it I did notice the boost it felt almost like a dash attack which I think I'll try using that some more next time because it puts bowser in a good position to punish the trip, but it's also easy to punish if shielded, most chars gain a boost from JCT a banana on the ground if they don't have a glidetoss, IDK about Bowser I'll have to see that. The up-b OoS IDK it might be because of wifi or it might be because I haven't been using Bowser too long. I know a couple of times in there I accidentally did a roll, IDK why, I usually don't have that problem lolz. I just accidentally pressed left/right instead of up. But thanks for the critique.

Edit: Oh yeah, forgot to add this in there, but also for picking up grounded bananas. It's MUCH easier to do that with Bowser than with Diddy for air dodges. Ever since I saw Acid's Bowser use a lot of SHAD > up-b, I've been implementing that into my playstyle as well and I've found that it works really well so a lot of times I would do both SHAD > up-b AND pick up a banana.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

I will never use Bowser, but just wanted to pop in and randomly say that I really like watching Bowser players. Good job dudes.

 

[_Dice]

I don't really have a set number, per se--I just get a feel for it.

@Dice--Yeah, it's really one of those things I'd just need to practice the timing of for a while in order to do it consistently in tournament. Now I'd just ban Yoshi's and never have to worry about it since Pictochat isn't legal anymore.

Invincible spindashes are possible on rainbow(boat and pendulium and the blank and white hump at the top), delfino(1 transformation), brinstar(when left side pillar is broken), castle siege (3rd transformation during heavy tilting), so it's still good to know how to do regardless. though if you brign sonic to brinstar all you have to do is stay on the right side of the stage and pretty much taunt for 8 minutes while sonic desperately tries to do anything.

 

[Zigsta]

Sonics ban Brinstar against me.

 

[_Dice]

Sonics ban Brinstar against me.

Brinstar is sonics worst stage by a good margin. he can only spindash from right to left and his approach angles are all blocked.

 

[Zigsta]

Pretty much every non-MK main bans Brinstar against me in Texas. XD

 

[Uncle]

I know the feeling, Zigsta. Every character I play does well on that stage, but I hardly get to go there against non-MKs.

 

[Jonas]

Ok since I'm sort of trying to get better at Brawl (although KF is usually the only one who wants to play it with me) I figured I'd post a video of my Bowser and ask for critique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC7vVj6UYU#t=1m55

I know I should probably approach less and stop f***ing around on the ledge so much haha
Any tip is appreciated

(I'm sorry that the commentary is in Danish. Just turn off the sound if you don't like it ).

 

[Flayl]

With apologies to Phiddlesticks and those who are expecting me to finish up the Fox matchup write-up, but I want to commentate on Jonas' vids before I lose interest:

Game 1:
- I think you could've followed up the first klaw with a double jump FAir, it didn't seem like stelzig would've avoided it (jumping out of hitstun can only be done much later than attacking/dodging). Just something to keep in mind.
- When you recover from histun from an attack with relatively weak knockback like Kirby's BAir, don't dash immediately because you can't put your shield up in time before he BAirs you again.
- That UTilt at 2:16 was nice, but it would've been better if you left that maneuver for when Kirby was at killing %. But like I said, that was a neat way to get it in.
- Melee FAir at 2:24 lol
- I'm assuming the roll at 2:29 was by accident. But something I notice is that you don't try to grab much. Bowser has an easy air release Klaw on Kirby, so look for opportunities to grab instead of fortress more often.
- Don't bomb to the ledge from such a short vertical distance
- The situation at 2:38 is a typically good situation to use Bowser's dash attack: Opponent whiffs poke, tries to get closer, you hit him with dash attack because he can't put his shield up yet
- That was unfortunate at 2:40. I guess you expected to be able to ledge attack. I'm not sure how Kirby was able to hit you, I don't think I've ever seen somebody hit Bowser out of recovery like that before o_0
- You should've tried to edgeguard with BAir at 2:52. It's harder for the opponent to see it coming if you double jump and BAir at the same time btw.
- I'm not sure if you were still in lag when you were inhaled at 2:56, but if Kirby whiffs inhale you can "tipper" FSmash him or jab him. Anything else will get you inhaled.
- 3:00 was a missed grab opportunity to a guaranteed kill move
- I'm not sure what your plan was at the beginning of Kirby's 2nd stock but putting yourself in the air against Kirby in positions where you can't Fair him isn't a good idea. When my opponent is invincible I like to go near the ledge of a stage and wait for my opponent and short hop airdodge past them if they're dashing towards me or grab the ledge if I'm not up against MK/Marth etc.
- 3:22 you missed an opportunity for a grab release klaw. For future reference, if you're not sure if you have a grab-release against somebody, try to ground-release klaw them. If that doesn't work DThrow them. BThrow is useless until ~150% near the ledge.
- 3:25 you should USmash to try to push them off the platform and get a free FSmash.
- 3:32 Another low % klaw you could've tried to follow up on
- Solid play for the rest of Kirby's 2nd stock
- I can't hear what Kirby did at 4:20 but I think it was FSmash, which should've given you a grab instead of fortress. A mentality a lot of us should have is to try and punish attacks as hard as possible and rely on fortress only when we don't know the matchup or are unsure what just happened.
- If you're in a situation like 4:30 where the opponent is waiting for you to get back onstage and he's pretty far away from the ledge, do a ledge hop airdodge and hold shield, that'll protect you from pretty much anything
- I assume the fortress at 4:32 was a mistake but the only attack that could've possibly be any use at that point would be firebreath to keep Kirby away so dunno
- 4:44 Use up angled FTilt against blocked full jump attacks, or dash USmash for a bigger risk/reward
- I'm not sure how "escapable" Kirby's Dthrow stuff is, but you should be SDI'ing up and away. And don't fortress, that ain't a ground combo
- 4:50 you should've klaw'd and buffered a jump, it's a good way to avoid getting juggled by people who stick to the ground
- 5:03 you could've klaw dropped through the platform and FAir'd Kirby (there is risk of getting hit by UTilt though), dashed off the platform and klaw backwards or klaw hopped to the other side of the stage. Landing near Kirby with your back turned to him is unnecessarily risky.
- You can't fortress most spaced attacks, in this situation try Ftilt angled upwards or FAir OoS.
- I think you got shield stabbed at the end, that was sort of unlucky. If you need time to think you can tilt the shield so you have more time before getting shield stabbed.

brb dinner

Note: I'm aware I do quite a bit of nitpicking, so if you you have an idea on how I can trim down my critique, be sure to let me know.

 

[B!squick]

Ok since I'm sort of trying to get better at Brawl (although KF is usually the only one who wants to play it with me) I figured I'd post a video of my Bowser and ask for critique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC7vVj6UYU#t=1m55

I know I should probably approach less and stop f***ing around on the ledge so much haha
Any tip is appreciated

(I'm sorry that the commentary is in Danish. Just turn off the sound if you don't like it ).

Why wont this video load for me?

 

[Jonas]

JayDeth,
YT acting up, Idk

Note: I'm aware I do quite a bit of nitpicking, so if you you have an idea on how I can trim down my critique, be sure to let me know.

Well if you want critique on your critique, maybe talk about the match in terms of general playstyles instead of individual situations. All of it was definitely helpful though, so thanks for that

 

[Flayl]

Game 2:
- If your opponent starts consistently rolling away from your jab cancel stuff try waiting for the roll and using firebreath, or simply do AA and get the easy 5%.
- 6:49 Hate Brawl's BS powershields
- Nice grab-release stuff at 7:03 but its missing the guaranteed air release klaw
- DI away from Kirby when you're getting UTilt'd
- 7:24 nice gimp by stelzig
- Don't ledge attack if you opponent isn't close to the ledge
- 8:00 Missed a UTilt opportunity, wouldn't have killed but it was the only thing that would hit
- Nice FAir kill
- If Kirby lands with a whiffed Bair try jabbing him
- 8:38 missed several klaw opportunities here. Take what you did at 8:27 as an example. BTW, why is the commentator talking about Brawl's "new" features lol
- 9:35 Poor DI by stelzig
- Lol more Brawl advertising
- 10:48 NAir was a bad idea, should've klaw'd
- 11:27 Nice pivot-grab, too bad about using Ftilt instead of Klaw
- Haha, tilted DSmash wins the game

Game 3:
- 13:05 was really risky, he wasn't close enough to try something like that
- 13:27 You could've tried to SDI to the other side of Kirby and klaw'd him - I know that works for Fox, not sure if it works against Kirby
- 13:38 You should've turned around and grabbed him
- 13:50 don't let him simply come back on stage, put yourself in a position where you can double jump BAir him
- 13:44 good read
- 14:08 You probably already know what I'm going to say here
- You were on fire during Kirby's 2nd stock gj
- 16:14 grab release klaw
- Stop fortressing out of juggles, it doesn't work
- 16:50 missed a FTilt opportunity
- Nice read by stelzig there, you also dropped too far. Ledge attack would've been safer.

Well if you want critique on your critique, maybe talk about the match in terms of general playstyles instead of individual situations. All of it was definitely helpful though, so thanks for that

Well in that case my critique is really short:
- Look for more grab opportunities and learn the grab release options
- Don't fortress to get out of juggles
- Land with klaw -> buffered jump against opponents that are waiting for you on the ground
- SDI more

 

[Jonas]

Nice, I'll keep this in mind

BTW, why is the commentator talking about Brawl's "new" features lol

Lmao he was pretty much just talking s*** about Brawl the entire match. He ran out of things to talk about so he just read aloud from the box.

 

[stelzig]

- That was unfortunate at 2:40. I guess you expected to be able to ledge attack. I'm not sure how Kirby was able to hit you, I don't think I've ever seen somebody hit Bowser out of recovery like that before o_0

Yep, i'm amazing

Game 2:

- 9:35 Poor DI by stelzig

Ehehehe. Yep, i'm not so amazing

 

[King Funk]

Ehehehe. Yep, i'm not so amazing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sy9NuuIU7gc#t=7m49s

 

[Cassius.]

nevermiiiiiiiiiiiind

 

[Scatz]

Finally got some vids of my Bowser. Wish I was still practicing this game before I stopped during my school year. Anyways, tear my Bowser apart.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJJ3Bg9grNo

Also, tons of lolz in the 2nd match, first kill. It's the reason why I asked how to play the matchup. XD

 

[Cassius.]

scatz u steal my texture y

 

[Scatz]

I only took the blue one. IIRC, you had the red one >.>

 

[Cassius.]

i have blue red and green lmao, my friend made the textures for me

i was just kidding, i actually dont care. i just found it funny. i have a ****load of requested bowser textures i could share with you guys if you all played this game still...lol

 

[Flayl]

Scatz, your Bowser needs a lot of work. It looks like you're trying to discover the character by yourself instead of using stuff that's already available to you.

Don't use Melee FAir (falling FAir after a short hop, fast-falled or otherwise), it doesn't work as an approach, there's too much lag.

You did a lot of fortresses that weren't even close to hitting when you could've done UTilt or even USmash instead.

In matchups where Bowser relies more on FTilt and aerial klaw (Marth being one of them), always have your back to the opponent when you're on the ground, Bowser's hurtbox is really assymetrical (pretty sure Yoshi's is too) and your opponent will need to get closer if he wants to hit you. As a bonus, it also makes hitting with UTilt after a shield drop easier.

This is something that's true for all characters, not just Bowser: Don't airdodge into opponents that are waiting for you on the ground. If they're dashing/jumping after you it's fine, but unsafe airdodges will get you hit. You have two options: Either use aerial klaw with a buffered option or land away from your opponent.

You're missing the ledge a lot by using fortress above the ledge grab zone. There were situations where your double jump would've gotten you there if you had waited a bit but you ended up fortressing.

What happened with the jab at 1:17? Were you trying to jab cancel? As a side note, a trick you can do with Marth players is use jab 1 then hold shield and punish dolphin slash or whatever.

You're missing UTilt opportunities like 1:58

Nice FSmash at 2:02

It's hard to tell, but did you try doing suicide klaws during your last stock? Don't forget to try to bait those.

In situations like 5:06 where fortress hits them before you grab the ledge and you're below 100%, you can "combo" them with an immediate ledge jump FAir.

I have no idea how to deal with Sheik's FTilt shenanigans. Wolf and Fox can punish her if she starts it too early, so I'm assuming you should SDI into Sheik and hold shield at really low %s and at later ones sdi the opposite diagonal and try to jump?

5:28 was a good ledge hop klaw opportunity. Don't forget to use those when your opponent is too close to the ledge.

6:04 was a DTilt opportunity: when your opponent is about to land and none of their aerials will hit you (either because they're airdodging or because their range in front of them sucks, like Sheik)

7:02 was painful to watch, lol. I hope someone can tell us how to avoid that.

 

[Zigsta]

Scatz and P1, I will get to you both this week.

 

[Zigsta]

Scatz, I just wanna point out a few things real quick, since Flayl did a nice job critiquing:

You need to develop your ground game more. Against Marth, for example, up-angled ftilts are great for punishing his fairs. It's also possible to outspace nair with Klaw, but it's generally safer to ftilt. In general, though, try to mix it up a bit more. That's why I jab cancel often: to mix things up since Bowser doesn't really have a ton of options. You started off fairing too often, but you pulled it back a bit.

Klaw Hopping from time to time is a nice mixup as well. It's really hard to tell someone when and where to Klaw Hop, as all of us do it differently. Personally I don't do it too often because I like keeping Bowser grounded as much as I can so his blind spot's not exposed. Usually when I like Klaw Hopping is when I feel I just need one more quick jump to reach my opponent with fair or bair. Sometimes just empty Klaw Hopping works, too, especially if you're opponent isn't used to Bowser.

Klaw Hopping might be beneficial to you in particular if you start off a match like game 1 with a lot of fairs. After a while, you may get your opponent accustomed to shielding, and Klaw beats that easily.

Marth and Sheik are two MUs you really wanna stay away from the ledge. Off the top of my head, there were a few times you ran to the ledge when Marth respawned--that's just about the worse position you can put yourself in in the Marth MU. If you've got momentum and can not get hit or pushed to the ledge during Marth's invincibility, that stock will go much smoother.

Back onto mixing it up on the ground: Definitely throw in some jab canceling. Some Bowsers don't use it too often, but there were definitely times where a Jab>ftilt/dtilt/etc could have scored you an eariler kill.

You also should throw in more ftilts in general. It's got great range for a tilt and is a nice mixup. Just don't use it too often since it has a bit of lag afterwards--pretty easy to punish if it's shielded, unfortunately.

Watch your using your double jump high in the air. I noticed you did that a few times against Marth. Since we lack a strong way to reverse our momentum in midair, we really need that double jump to mix things up just before landing.


That's all I've got from one sitdown. If there's anything else I can help you with or if there's something that's not clear, lemme know. I just wanted to do this before I turn in for the night.

P1, I'll get to your video this week. Sorry for the wait!

 

[Scatz]

Thanks Flayl and Zigsta. I'd forgotten a lot of the old tactics I'd use to do when I played so I have to re-incorporate my old game back and improve on that.

 

[Player-1]

If you can get to it today then I'd <3 you zigsta, I'm going to a tournament tomorrow and stuff.