Yeah I still get quite a few kills with it. Even if it isn't guaranteed its an option we shouldn't forget about should the situation come up
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- Thread starter Player-4
- Start date
U can also rise faster, if you are using UAirs between your jumps.
But I don´t know if it´s a viable option, since you need time to get to the ledge after hitting him offstage.
But yeah, it´s an option, even if it´s situational.
I wonder, if Falcos Side B can be constantly punished on reaction.
I alway try to, but I don´t seem to get it. :s
Predicting his habits is the only way that works for me right now.
The worst problem is, that he can also mix it up like, lasering, then waiting in shield for half of a second and then doing the side B OoS.
He can also punish the ending lag of a SH Nair with his Side B ... :/
That move is so annoying.
iRJi
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 2,423
It's not guaranteed at all. 100% DI-able.
I think we also need to redo the Pika MU:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288334
:s
+ M2K vs. Esam
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288334
:s
+ M2K vs. Esam
Orion*
Smash Researcher
sorry i havent done bpc and lzrs vids yet ive been bsy with school, and the break i had jumpman came over 
Nothing has changed.
You want to tell me that a zero to death option for Pikachu doesn´t affect the MU?
Nobody wants to say anything to the Falco side B thing I mentioned?
theunabletable
Smash Lord
^I was gonna say. Dthrow > Uair > footstool seemed like something that would've been discovered a loooong time ago, atleast imo, since I found that Dthrow > uair was a true combo when I was ****ing around with Pikachu like a month and a half ago, but didn't bother posting it since it seemed like fairly common knowledge lol.
There are SOOO many true combos that people don't seem to know about because they're too lazy to find stuff.
For instance: MK's SH rising dair true combos into first hit forward air (or two hit forward air if you buffer everything perfectly, but it's a little difficult to get two hits of fair out consistently) at certain percentages on certain characters. It all depends on the weight, how much forward momentum you have when doing the SH rising dair, when that character goes into tumble, etc.
And first hit fair (or two hit fair) true combos into GSL at like... idk what percentages, but on Snake, I know that the percentages in which dair > first/two hit fair is a true combo, first/two hit fair > GSL is a true combo.
So, for instance, at certain percentages on Snake, rising SH dair > first hit fair > GSL is a true 19% combo.
And I'm preeeeetty sure it true combos into bair at certain percentages, too, but I think the range is smaller because you have less potential for forward momentum. And first hit bair sets up a whole load of ****, although I don't know how guarantee'd most of it is.
And they're practical combos, too, as long as they're in they're in the right percentage range. SH rising dair OoS is a good option, and dash attack can set it up, too. And I know I've done SH rising dair > first hit fair > dash attack before, and I know that dash attack can set up SH rising dair > first hit bair which sets up grab on it's own. Although I haven't tested the dash attack variations of the combo much, so I don't know how guarantee'd those are.
I'm also faaaairly sure that on certain characters, weak hit dash attack > jab is a true combo off stage (like if you hit them at the end of the dash attack when they're next to the ledge), and since they're off stage, they can't perfect shield it and punish you, so they take a lot of damage. And if someone air releases from a grab, I'm fairly certain that some air releases set up weak hit dash attack (I'm almost positve that MK's air release sets up weak hit dash attack).
(jab offstage is ****ing legit if used correctly, btw. They can SDI it up and get back onstage, but most won't because it's a pretty uncommonly used option, and you can stop the jab early so you don't get punished, and they're in a HORRIBLE position)
There are soooooo many ****ing options that people don't even use, not counting combos. Like DCing from below the stage to land ONTO the stage, have it auto cancel so that they can't punish it easily at all (it is surprisingly hard to punish. It's a good mixup if you use it at the right times).
If you use it right, it like instantly gets you onto the stage, AND gives you insane stage control depending on where the opponent is when you use it.
There's a ****load of DC mixups that people don't even experiment with except for like... M2K. DC is reaaaally good. His best, and most versatile, recovery move, imo. I mean from the ledge alone, you can get so many places with DC. You can DC back to the ledge, you can ledge hop DC and auto cancel a land onto a platform on BF, you can ledge jump > DC and land on a multitude of areas on the stage, and it's merely a guessing game for the opponent, and if they guess wrong, MK's back on the stage with major stage control advantage.
People don't experiment enough with nair, either. SHFFAC nair ***** air dodges and certain approaches. And SHFFAC nair has really good followups depending on the percentage. I don't know how guarantee'd they are, but SHFFAC nair > dtilt/ftilt is really good.
And falling nair like true combos into stuff, too (or atleast they're very reliable followups). It's REALLY **** because if you do it right, they take 18% from the nair, then like 12 from the Ftilt, and now they're in the air after taking a 30% combo and in a terrible position where you can cover their landing options.
SHFFAC nair is completely **** if you use it in the right situations. It's a fast option that works really well against air dodges because if their air dodge ends before nair ends, then they get hit by weak hit nair, and then they get ***** by some followup. If they land on the ground before nair ends, same thing. If their air dodge outlasts nair, you're very likely to land on the ground first and can punish them on reaction.
Hell, with all of that in mind, I don't know if first hit fair/bair true combos into nair, but I know that if I rising dair > first hit fair/bair I can SHFFAC nair and even if they can air dodge the nair, I can cover like all their options on reaction lol.
And SHFFAC nair is really easy to do. You can buffer a fastfall by hitting the C stick down without buffering an attack. So you just SH nair, then mash the C stick down a few times (make sure you don't do it too late, though, or you'll buffer a dtilt) and you'll fastfall as soon as possible, and it'll autocancel.
And then people don't even practice ledge traps enough, even though people should NOT be getting back to the stage easily at all if MK gets to the ledge. It's character dependant, but like there are certain spacings (atleast in the ditto) where you can cover a ****load of options on reaction alone, and I have a ****ty reaction time, too.
MK is SOOOOOO good when people are on the ledge. If the opponent gets off stage, you should be able to pressure them ridiculously hard with the threat of LGLs (since every tournament uses them). They HAVE to get onto the stage or they auto-lose. Since you know this, you can pressure their getup options REALLY hard.
Like Pit, for instance. If he's on the ledge, he's ****ed. Just stay at a specific spacing, and like all of his safe options can be stopped on reaction, and his risky options are REALLY risky, and can usually be covered the same way you stop his safe options.
Idk sorry for the rant, it's just annoying that there are SO many things that I don't even see people experiment with that work on actual people :/
There are SOOO many true combos that people don't seem to know about because they're too lazy to find stuff.
For instance: MK's SH rising dair true combos into first hit forward air (or two hit forward air if you buffer everything perfectly, but it's a little difficult to get two hits of fair out consistently) at certain percentages on certain characters. It all depends on the weight, how much forward momentum you have when doing the SH rising dair, when that character goes into tumble, etc.
And first hit fair (or two hit fair) true combos into GSL at like... idk what percentages, but on Snake, I know that the percentages in which dair > first/two hit fair is a true combo, first/two hit fair > GSL is a true combo.
So, for instance, at certain percentages on Snake, rising SH dair > first hit fair > GSL is a true 19% combo.
And I'm preeeeetty sure it true combos into bair at certain percentages, too, but I think the range is smaller because you have less potential for forward momentum. And first hit bair sets up a whole load of ****, although I don't know how guarantee'd most of it is.
And they're practical combos, too, as long as they're in they're in the right percentage range. SH rising dair OoS is a good option, and dash attack can set it up, too. And I know I've done SH rising dair > first hit fair > dash attack before, and I know that dash attack can set up SH rising dair > first hit bair which sets up grab on it's own. Although I haven't tested the dash attack variations of the combo much, so I don't know how guarantee'd those are.
I'm also faaaairly sure that on certain characters, weak hit dash attack > jab is a true combo off stage (like if you hit them at the end of the dash attack when they're next to the ledge), and since they're off stage, they can't perfect shield it and punish you, so they take a lot of damage. And if someone air releases from a grab, I'm fairly certain that some air releases set up weak hit dash attack (I'm almost positve that MK's air release sets up weak hit dash attack).
(jab offstage is ****ing legit if used correctly, btw. They can SDI it up and get back onstage, but most won't because it's a pretty uncommonly used option, and you can stop the jab early so you don't get punished, and they're in a HORRIBLE position)
There are soooooo many ****ing options that people don't even use, not counting combos. Like DCing from below the stage to land ONTO the stage, have it auto cancel so that they can't punish it easily at all (it is surprisingly hard to punish. It's a good mixup if you use it at the right times).
If you use it right, it like instantly gets you onto the stage, AND gives you insane stage control depending on where the opponent is when you use it.
There's a ****load of DC mixups that people don't even experiment with except for like... M2K. DC is reaaaally good. His best, and most versatile, recovery move, imo. I mean from the ledge alone, you can get so many places with DC. You can DC back to the ledge, you can ledge hop DC and auto cancel a land onto a platform on BF, you can ledge jump > DC and land on a multitude of areas on the stage, and it's merely a guessing game for the opponent, and if they guess wrong, MK's back on the stage with major stage control advantage.
People don't experiment enough with nair, either. SHFFAC nair ***** air dodges and certain approaches. And SHFFAC nair has really good followups depending on the percentage. I don't know how guarantee'd they are, but SHFFAC nair > dtilt/ftilt is really good.
And falling nair like true combos into stuff, too (or atleast they're very reliable followups). It's REALLY **** because if you do it right, they take 18% from the nair, then like 12 from the Ftilt, and now they're in the air after taking a 30% combo and in a terrible position where you can cover their landing options.
SHFFAC nair is completely **** if you use it in the right situations. It's a fast option that works really well against air dodges because if their air dodge ends before nair ends, then they get hit by weak hit nair, and then they get ***** by some followup. If they land on the ground before nair ends, same thing. If their air dodge outlasts nair, you're very likely to land on the ground first and can punish them on reaction.
Hell, with all of that in mind, I don't know if first hit fair/bair true combos into nair, but I know that if I rising dair > first hit fair/bair I can SHFFAC nair and even if they can air dodge the nair, I can cover like all their options on reaction lol.
And SHFFAC nair is really easy to do. You can buffer a fastfall by hitting the C stick down without buffering an attack. So you just SH nair, then mash the C stick down a few times (make sure you don't do it too late, though, or you'll buffer a dtilt) and you'll fastfall as soon as possible, and it'll autocancel.
And then people don't even practice ledge traps enough, even though people should NOT be getting back to the stage easily at all if MK gets to the ledge. It's character dependant, but like there are certain spacings (atleast in the ditto) where you can cover a ****load of options on reaction alone, and I have a ****ty reaction time, too.
MK is SOOOOOO good when people are on the ledge. If the opponent gets off stage, you should be able to pressure them ridiculously hard with the threat of LGLs (since every tournament uses them). They HAVE to get onto the stage or they auto-lose. Since you know this, you can pressure their getup options REALLY hard.
Like Pit, for instance. If he's on the ledge, he's ****ed. Just stay at a specific spacing, and like all of his safe options can be stopped on reaction, and his risky options are REALLY risky, and can usually be covered the same way you stop his safe options.
Idk sorry for the rant, it's just annoying that there are SO many things that I don't even see people experiment with that work on actual people :/
theunabletable
Smash Lord
It’s not just directed at you haha.
I just find it amazing that with a thread like this, it hasn’t been filled with all of this simple stuff like MK’s plethora of obscure true combos.
I mean I found that stuff a while back from just an hour of playing at 6 AM (I get really creative when I play after being up reaaaally late), and that’s not even all the mixups and combos I found in just a single hour.
It just pisses me off a bit that we’ve got a character that’s already amazing, and even has a lot of unused legit potential for stronger follow-ups that the majority of people don’t seem to even try and use in tournament matches (a lot of the follow-ups and mixups I use work simply because they’re foreign to mostly everyone, so they never initially cover that option).
I just find it amazing that with a thread like this, it hasn’t been filled with all of this simple stuff like MK’s plethora of obscure true combos.
I mean I found that stuff a while back from just an hour of playing at 6 AM (I get really creative when I play after being up reaaaally late), and that’s not even all the mixups and combos I found in just a single hour.
It just pisses me off a bit that we’ve got a character that’s already amazing, and even has a lot of unused legit potential for stronger follow-ups that the majority of people don’t seem to even try and use in tournament matches (a lot of the follow-ups and mixups I use work simply because they’re foreign to mostly everyone, so they never initially cover that option).
Orion*
Smash Researcher
im pretty sure sdi ***** most "true" combos but i agree
theunabletable
Smash Lord
MK's attacks have so much range that you'd need to get like 2 SDI inputs per hit to avoid the combos (atleast for most of the percentages that it works).
Sure it's possible, but you'd need REALLY good SDI, and the majority of people don't.
The jab stuff gets beat by SDI, but off stage, it's still really safe against some characters.
Sure it's possible, but you'd need REALLY good SDI, and the majority of people don't.
The jab stuff gets beat by SDI, but off stage, it's still really safe against some characters.
Imagine if everybody figured this stuff out for their respective characters and how the metagame would advance. I'm doing this kinda stuff with marth right now. Lately marth's been getting pwned by nado on the ledge but moves with transcendant priority stop it. So I started doing legde drop DB1 and sure enough it works. Then kadaj makes a thread about it before I spill the beans
_Kadaj_
Smash Hero
Lol you know I knew about it a month or so in advance before even posting a thread on it right?
Yeah I just tought about it a little after you but its better that you presented it since you have more cred
Footstool>Nair is amazing both on-stage and off-stage. It's safe on block (even against Meta Knight), practically comes out frame 1, and shield pokes well. Its best use is when someone is in your zone when you don't want them to be (e.g. Snake and Falco) and you're in a position to cross-up.
One of its many uses is against Snake's recovery. If you have an inkling that Snake may attempt to C4 early when he's Up-Bing toward you, you can time footstool>Nair so that you'll footstool Snake if he attempts to C4 and you'll Nair him out of the Cypher if he doesn't.
Also, weak-hit-Nair is extremely underused. When it's auto-canceled properly, it has soft pressure on most blocking opponents and is -2 on block. Basically, you can hit every member of the cast directly in front of them and then Ftilt/Dtilt/have invincibility on Up-B before any character can grab you, and you can also Dsmash before most of the cast can grab you.
If Nair hits block with the end of the weak hit (-6), MK can foot stool (frame 7 ) before most of the cast can do anything other than spot dodge (which could be punished on reaction after the foot stool) or roll away (which could be followed up with momentum). Used with the safe foot stool>Nair that I mentioned earlier, the shield should be well into guaranteed pokes. Of course, there are also other mix-ups and -- more importantly -- cross-ups.
For those wondering, the only option that MK has against this are to wait and shield and take the shield damage/possibly get poked by anything that MK used with the foot stool, roll away, spot dodge and get hit on reaction, frame-perfect/buffered Uair out of shield (no room for error -- not being frame-perfect, using Nair, etc. would result with the foot stool landing first), whiffing Up-B with MK in place to punish on reaction with a sweet-spot Nair/Up-B/etc., doing anything else and getting hit by the foot stool.
The only other characters capable of punishing/beating a the weak-hit-Nair on block would be hitting with a Usmash that comes out on frame 7 or earlier, has an Up-B that comes out on frame 7 (Possibly Peach and/or Wario) or earlier or an Up-B with invincibility (Marth, Mario, G&W, Bowser and Samus, come to mind, although Bowser could still be out-spaced)/very large vertical range (e.g. Ike).
One of its many uses is against Snake's recovery. If you have an inkling that Snake may attempt to C4 early when he's Up-Bing toward you, you can time footstool>Nair so that you'll footstool Snake if he attempts to C4 and you'll Nair him out of the Cypher if he doesn't.
Also, weak-hit-Nair is extremely underused. When it's auto-canceled properly, it has soft pressure on most blocking opponents and is -2 on block. Basically, you can hit every member of the cast directly in front of them and then Ftilt/Dtilt/have invincibility on Up-B before any character can grab you, and you can also Dsmash before most of the cast can grab you.
If Nair hits block with the end of the weak hit (-6), MK can foot stool (frame 7 ) before most of the cast can do anything other than spot dodge (which could be punished on reaction after the foot stool) or roll away (which could be followed up with momentum). Used with the safe foot stool>Nair that I mentioned earlier, the shield should be well into guaranteed pokes. Of course, there are also other mix-ups and -- more importantly -- cross-ups.
For those wondering, the only option that MK has against this are to wait and shield and take the shield damage/possibly get poked by anything that MK used with the foot stool, roll away, spot dodge and get hit on reaction, frame-perfect/buffered Uair out of shield (no room for error -- not being frame-perfect, using Nair, etc. would result with the foot stool landing first), whiffing Up-B with MK in place to punish on reaction with a sweet-spot Nair/Up-B/etc., doing anything else and getting hit by the foot stool.
The only other characters capable of punishing/beating a the weak-hit-Nair on block would be hitting with a Usmash that comes out on frame 7 or earlier, has an Up-B that comes out on frame 7 (Possibly Peach and/or Wario) or earlier or an Up-B with invincibility (Marth, Mario, G&W, Bowser and Samus, come to mind, although Bowser could still be out-spaced)/very large vertical range (e.g. Ike).
Orion*
Smash Researcher
i need vids of w/e youre talking about lol im way to tired to figure it out
ive been drowned in school work atm so i feel bad that i havent been posting
ive been drowned in school work atm so i feel bad that i havent been posting
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
Btw table, sh dair to fair1 is not a true combo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQZ04q7QGU&feature=related 2:05
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyQZ04q7QGU&feature=related 2:05
If you perform it correctly, Nair will hit them when you begin your ascent. You'll also rise with the weak-Nair hit box. It can put you in a bad position, but being as high as you will be, most of the cast can't reach you before can be gliding and none of the cast can reach you before you are on the top platform of Battlefield unless you're at the edge of the stage. The best stages for this will have a relatively high platform that you can reach before your opponent can interact with you such as Battlefield, Brinstar, etc.
Nair has more hit-stun than Dair, but comes out 1 frame later than Dair, giving an additional +1 frame over Dair while rising. Dair ends 7 frames sooner than Nair, so it's still a valid option. Nair also does more damage (I'm seeing when Nair will sweet-spot from the foot stool; it occasionally happens for me), knock back, etc. The main reason that Nair is better than Dair is that -- assuming that both will be safe from punishment -- Nair has more shield damage and will trade with MK's Up-B. If MK Up-Bs the Dair, he may lose the trade. From what I've seen so far, Nair has no bad trades.
theunabletable
Smash Lord
Not at that percentage. Has to be higher. At that percentage the opponent hits the ground too early. At a higher percentage the opponent remains in the air longer and right after hitstun ends they get landing lag (and if they remain in the air, air dodges are also pretty laggy). And it also depends on whether or not you hit with the stronger outer hitbox, or the inner, weaker hitbox of dair.
At certain percentages, not 0, it is a true combo.
Go test it yourself. The game itself says that dair > fair is a two hit combo at certain percentages. Try it on Snake or Bowser first, I think they have the biggest percentage range for when it works.
And I'm pretty sure that the range is a little bigger than what the game itself says, as while it's not a complete true combo at all percentages, I think there are some percentages in which they're technically able to perform an action before you hit them with the fair, but all of their actions are too slow to stop the fair (assuming that they're in the air since air dodge has some startup lag).
This. SHFFAC nair is so much **** because of the weak hit following up into everything even if they airdodge.
Dair>Bair is an excellent frame trap on most of the cast. You can time it so that you'll Dair someone hanging on the ledge and then Bair. It will cover all of their options except for roll, which you can still cover with tilts after the ACBair. Get-up/get-up attack is Bair>Grab, too.
U can just react to what they are doing and land some much better moves, which put them back offstage or into a bad position.
They are also able to DI the bair, so that the grab afterwards won´t hit.
If you go that close to the ledge (doing that dair) some chars can also jump up and hit you.
For example MK can just FAir you from the ledge.
SHUair (while falling)>Air Dodge>Grab and FFSHUair>Air Dodge>Grab (while rising) works at low percents.
At low percents (mid percent for heavies), they can't DI far enough to escape the grab on Bair. They can SDI it though. If you're spacing it the way that I am talking about, Fair wouldn't hit you. I didn't say to use this at all against MK (why would you go above MK when he's on the ledge?) Jump could be covered on reaction, as I said. It's not the end-all-be-all and rolling onto the stage would allow them to return (the others would still send them back off-stage), but it still works fairly well and is something else that you can do.
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
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- NNID
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Just discovered the marvels of a retreating Fsmash.
It is my new favourite MK move. <3
It is my new favourite MK move. <3
btw... Title should be a little more appealing... =/
Player-4
See you in 25 years
>_> then give me an "appealing" title, don't just whine about it and leave it at that
ぱみゅ
❤ ~
- Joined
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IDC really, I just tried it with many characters, and MK's da bess =P
That's pretty hard, but most of the other Character Boards has cool funny names for Socials, QA and MU threads....
Ours sounds like... too much srsbsns... =/
I'll think of some names for either, and tell you tomorrow if I got any ideas, I'm pretty tired right now...
Budget Player Cadet_
Smash Hero
Careful; it may not seem like it but it is in fact punishable if misused. But yeah I ****ing love Fsmash.
Title idea: "ITT: We make metaknight MORE broken"
Orion*
Smash Researcher
it has lag... its just safe on block. and everyone shields it XDDDDDDDD
pro tip (staco learned the hard way LOLOLPOLOLOLOLOL) dont do this vs marth
pro tip (staco learned the hard way LOLOLPOLOLOLOLOL) dont do this vs marth
haha, allready knew about that ****, but just did it to see if Ramin reacts to it
FSmashing is a bad idea against a char with much range
haha, allready knew about that ****, but just did it to see if Ramin reacts to it
FSmashing is a bad idea against a grounded char with much range