Ike: A *Temporary* Detailed Matchup Guide: #37 - Ike(Fsmash)

[t3h n00b]

Both should have worked, but how I tested was spiking someone on my way back to the ship, which is probably the easiest to pull off in a match, although the current made it kind of hard to hit. Aerial Raptor Boost always spikes, but it won't kill outright until 50% at least, most likely.

 

[metroid1117]

Out of curiosity, what's Falcon's best neutral stage?

 

[Kimchi]

I think Battlefield or Yoshi's Island is Falcon's best stage. Yoshi's Island has the walls that Falcon can jump off to try landing a knee. Flubbed or not flubbed, the wall provides a great way for Falcon to edgeguard. Battlefield has platforms, which is a benefit for Falcon I think. He could string attacks easier on platforms such as Uair chains, Nairs, and Fairs. If I'm not mistaken, Nair also autocancels for Falcon when coming down from a platform.

 

[Tenki]

Arguably Battlefield. Platforms help his U-air alot, and set up for things like sweet knees, B-air locks (yes, even the B-air > Falcon Punch combo) if you're not on top of things.

 

[Palpi]

Arguably Battlefield. Platforms help his U-air alot, and set up for things like sweet knees, B-air locks (yes, even the B-air > Falcon Punch combo) if you're not on top of things.

How about the trip, backword uair falcon punch combo

I actually would agree that the platforms do help juggling in the bit I am played falcon.

 

[t3h n00b]

I would agree that Battlefield is Falcon's best neutral, but Lylat is probably a close second if it's considered neutral- its platforms allow for about the same sort of thing, and the ledges don't gimp him nearly as much as most characters. I don't really play there much though, I just don't like it.

 

[Wogrim]

The ike has to bait falcon to approach, rar retreating fairs, or normal retreating fairs. Falcons approach options are extremely limited and have low priority.

This is why it turns into mostly jabs and grabs. Falcon has to approach defensively or he'll eat aerials all day.

 

[Kimchi]

So I'm going to conclude it with the following:
Matchup #34: Captain Falcon
60:40
Ike outranges Falcon easily, but since Falcon has his speed, Ike has to rely on a close-ranged game and on quick, powerful moves like Bair to win. Falcon meanwhile, still has to approach warily because Ike's range is something to watch out for, especially from a retreating Fair. Falcon has to rely on his movement speed to punish Ike as well as juggling Ike in the air to rack up damage.


For Ike, it's dangerous to go offstage against Falcon, because Falcons tend to like to recover low and at high percentages, Falcon Dive's stage spike is something to watch out for. At the very most, Ike should edgehog against a Falcon. Walkoff Fairs could serve to be useful however in certain cases when the Falcon is far from the ledge. Walkoff Dair is a risk however in that it all depends on how good the Ike's timing is. Ike's ground game beats Falcon's ground game, but Falcon, with his movement speed, could easily punish all of Ike's slow moves. Falcon also can gimp Ike surprisingly well with his aerials, especially his Fair even if it is flubbed. Falcons have several great follow throughs like jab cancelling -> grab or Fair -> Uair. Watch out for his Bair locks. He could even follow up a Bair with a Falcon Punch. Speaking of Falcon Punch, don't underestimate the relatively good horizontal range that it has. If Ike isn't careful, he could say goodbye to a stock at 50% so do be careful about the punch.


In the end though, it comes down to whichever person plays smarter with spacing, the player with the better mindgames, as well as who beats who on the ground. In terms of stage picks, Battlefield benefits both characters. Ike should ban Norfair and should counterpick Pirate Ship or Yoshi's Island.

Do we all agree with this write-up or are there any other points that I have not addressed here?

 

[Teh Brettster]

I think that's a wrap on that match-up?

Next project..?

 

[manofgames4555]

I am new to playing Ike and have to say. 60-40 Ike's favor sounds just right.

PS. Ike is beast, and Captain should never be a problem.

 

[t3h n00b]

I liked the writeup, but the bair lock isn't a threat really.

 

[Kimchi]

Okay, well Ike boards, we're moving on. Mario or Samus, which matchup would we like to cover first?

 

[Nysyarc]

Doesn't matter to me, I don't tend to have much trouble with either of them... although Samus is trickier than Mario so I vote Samus.

 

[Palpi]

Characters that are more frequently found in tournaments..

 

[metroid1117]

Characters that are more frequently found in tournaments..

Well, according to Ankoku's list, Mario's higher than Samus. I think we should finish going over every character before going back and reviewing our previous discussions, which is why I didn't pick anyone who is known for giving Ike more trouble.

 

[King of Sack]

Okay, well Ike boards, we're moving on. Mario or Samus, which matchup would we like to cover first?

Samus would be very helpful...

 

[Palpi]

Bowser because I got a MM in like 4 days!

I guess mario would good.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Bowser because I got a MM in like 4 days!

I guess mario would good.

We've already done Bowser.

Learn the Bthrow CG, it's a free 0-60%.

 

[Kimchi]

Okay, we're moving on to Mario, Ike boards.

 

[Judge Judy]

Ike has range and power, Mario has juggles and gimps.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Good stuff. I was just about to post saying we should decide on one or the other.

Mario doesn't quite have our range. Or our power. But with fireballs, some quick aerials, a hose, and a cape, he has a few gimping options. So expect those. Jab fights ought not to be a bother for us-- I'm pretty sure ours is faster than/outranges Mario's moves. He doesn't have bad range on a stutter-stepped Fsmash, though, and isn't it a disjointed hitbox? Now, I'm not sure how easy it is to gimp Mario out of his upB.

Eh, that's as much as I can think of off the top of my head..? Somebody come up with more.

 

[Judge Judy]

Ike's jab definitely outranges Mario's but Mario's does come out faster. As far as gimping Mario, Ike doesn't really have any reliable options to gimp Mario other than edgehogging, which he can't do on reaction.

 

[Kimchi]

Mario destroys Ike when he approaches with his fireball and gets up close. His jab comes out faster than Ike's jab and Ike can't punish him and has to shield the jabs. Otherwise, when the Mario is trying to get up close with his fireball, Ike should use an OOS retreating Fair or an OOS Dair. Honestly, I can't tell how many times I got hit with Mario's jab when I tried to jab him to punish him when he got up and close with me with the fireball. Air stalling with the cape gets pretty annoying, too so punish on reaction, not by prediction. Expect Mario's stutter-step Fsmash a lot. Edgehogging isn't that hard with Ike, but against Mario, I don't advise Ike going offstage at all. Mario can stall for a while with his cape similarly to Fox's shine and he'll just stage spike you with his up + B if you're not careful. That's pretty much my outlook on the match.

 

[Inferno3044]

Mario has tons of quick attacks to rack up damage fast. Ike is very easily gimpable either way he wants to recover. He can cape quick draw or run into it if the Mario has low percent and can still survive and FLUDD destroys aether and can stop quick draw as well. Mario can definitely camp Ike well so we can make you approach eventually. (I know you can perfect shield, but perfect shield alone isn't enough) Even while Mario is approaching, we have stuff like fireballs, dair, and bair. We have very go aerial mobility, some pretty good OOS options (mainly UpB) and much better movement speed. Of course you guys have a LOT of power and range and if we mess up, you can punish big time. Not only can upB stage spike, Mario can also do a bair to stage spike.

My overall thought: 60:40 Mario

 

[Palpi]

Tech it then!

 

[§leepy God]

♫ I just experience how good Mario's Cape really is to Ike's Side B. D: ☼

♫ But on the real note, do not underestimate Mario's Fireballs, and FLUDD because it can be a major problem for Ike. ☼

 

[HeroMystic]

Jabs > Mario
Mario > Everything else.

 

[metroid1117]

I fought against Bo X7's Mario a couple months ago (friendlies, I barely won) and Bo partnered with Kirk, so it's not like he didn't know the Ike-Mario match-up.

If Mario is far enough to use fireballs safely, you have to approach him. There's no question about it, if you let him approach with the fireball you'll be in serious trouble if he gets through. If he screws up his spacing while using the fireball you can hit him with a retreating FAir, but don't expect to be able to follow-up well because you'll probably get hit by the fireball upon landing.

Mario has surprisingly nasty follow-ups when he gets a jab; jab -> grab -> DThrow can set up for some UTilt juggles if you get read properly, while BThrow/FThrow can set up for some edgeguards. Ike has the usual jab -> grab -> BThrow -> dash attack on Mario at certain percents, but Mario is the clear winner in terms of setups after a grab. If he does get in close enough to jab you, your best bet is to try and get away from him as soon as possible and keep him in between your own jab and FAir's range.

In terms of gimping, Mario wins. FLUDD destroys QD, but it doesn't really stop Aether if you make sure you sweetspot the edge the best you can; it will screw you over if you get hit with it on the way up though. Getting caped is very possible though; if you can, try Aether'ing onto the edge backwards so that if they do cape you, you can still grab it. It leaves you vulnerable for a free Smash attack though, so be prepared to DI. Edgehogging is still a good option for Mario if they want to play simple, or dropping down with a BAir. Ike cannot gimp Mario nearly as well; walk-off DAirs don't work well because of the massive hitbox that the Super Jump Punch has, so he can only rely on edgehogs. However, Ike can punish Mario more badly if Mario is forced to land on the stage with Aether than vice-versa with Aether, FAir, UAir, or DAir (if he's close enough).

In killing, Ike has the advantage as usual. Mario's only kill moves are FSmash (which can have some startling range if stutter-stepped), DSmash, and USmash, all of which are not so scary compared to other moves (except sweetspotted FSmash, that hurts). Mario is better at gimping; if you can mix up your recovery well enough to prevent him from doing that, it can be very difficult for him to kill you.

I'd say it's in Mario's favor, but not 40-60; more like 45:55.

 

[san.]

Hmm.. Can't see how mario has the advantage in this matchup. It's very easy to powershield and jab Mario's fireballs. Mario has to be very careful approaching with them in the first place because of Ike's long range with retreating fair and jabs. Ike can get hit by fireballs and still fair mario. Mario's jab outspeed ike's, which is worrisome, but Ike's jabs have more range.

In the air, I think it's hard for mario to approach at all, while Ike can easily space with fairs, and if mario gets close, can dance around those aerials with nair. Once hit, though, if you're good enough, it's possible to score in some successive hits, but I think spaced nair defeats most if not all of those attempts.

Offstage, it's mario's favor. Ike should be more afraid of FLUDD than the cape, because of how good it is vs aether and how precise (and predictable) you must recover. Cape is an ok gimp against Ike, but if the ike can get close enough to the stage and can do a reverse aether, it's VERY risky. It's possible for ike to recover with aether even with caped, but it takes some skill to do.


Ike can pressure mario with his long range without even leaving the stage. If Ike remains planted on the stage, mario will have a lot of trouble.


If Ike is underneath, Ike's long range has a good chance of forcing air dodges because of the priority and range of ike's attacks (if this is wrong, let me know =) ). If mario decides not to air dodge, it's quite risky, but less predictable so the ike can't try to take initiative of the dodge.

The range issue and kills really puts on pressure for mario. I think this might be 60:40 Ike to be quite honest. If I made wrong/questionable statements, hope some mario mains can help out with that! So we can talk about it or something.. because it seems I have the minority opinion as of right now.

 

[:mad:]

Hmm.. Can't see how mario has the advantage in this matchup. It's very easy to powershield and jab Mario's fireballs. Mario has to be very careful approaching with them in the first place because of Ike's long range with retreating fair and jabs. Ike can get hit by fireballs and still fair mario. Mario's jab outspeed ike's, which is worrisome, but Ike's jabs have more range.

Easy in theory, but the fireballs alone aren't the problem. Mario can dish out 2 fireballs to put some pressure out, then follow up with jabs, a Nair, grab, anything that keeps you on your toes.

In the air, I think it's hard for mario to approach at all, while Ike can easily space with fairs, and if mario gets close, can dance around those aerials with nair. Once hit, though, if you're good enough, it's possible to score in some successive hits, but I think spaced nair defeats most if not all of those attempts.

Eh, I'll give you that one. If you go for a Fair, Mario can retreat with a fireball or FLUDD. Mario's Bair, Uair, and Nair are still viable options when an Ike is Nairing. Mario can land two Bairs in one shorthop, we usually use this for close ranged spacing. What Mario lacks in aerial range, he more than makes up for in speed. Being able to pressure Ike is imporant. Fireballs give him some room to work and he can juggle Ike. There's nothing Ike can do short of airdodging or countering. And if a Mario predicts that, the lag from the move will cause you to eat a Dsmash, Fsmash, jab, grab, almost anything.

Offstage, it's mario's favor. Ike should be more afraid of FLUDD than the cape, because of how good it is vs aether and how precise (and predictable) you must recover. Cape is an ok gimp against Ike, but if the ike can get close enough to the stage and can do a reverse aether, it's VERY risky. It's possible for ike to recover with aether even with caped, but it takes some skill to do.

Eh, they're dangerous all the same. Capestalling, if timed right, can edgehog an Aethering Ike. FLUDD's only dangerous if you overshoot the ledge, something you should watch out for. Granted that Quick Draw is an awful recovery move, I don't think it counts for anything to be able to gimp it.

Ike can pressure mario with his long range without even leaving the stage. If Ike remains planted on the stage, mario will have a lot of trouble.

Mario wins the battle of pressure, despite Ike having that amazing jab.

If Ike is underneath, Ike's long range has a good chance of forcing air dodges because of the priority and range of ike's attacks (if this is wrong, let me know =) ). If mario decides not to air dodge, it's quite risky, but less predictable so the ike can't try to take initiative of the dodge.

Not so much. ^^
He really suffers against anyone with fast, ranged tilts like Donkey Kong. Ike's decent from above, Upsmash as plenty of lag, Uptilt is a nice option. And a grounded Aether's not too bad.

The range issue and kills really puts on pressure for mario. I think this might be 60:40 Ike to be quite honest. If I made wrong/questionable statements, hope some mario mains can help out with that! So we can talk about it or something.. because it seems I have the minority opinion as of right now.

Mario can kill just as early, if not earlier than Ike. I think it's 50:50, if not 55:45 for either side.

 

[Matador]

55:45 Mario, mainly because charged Fludd > Aether offstage. Onstage, they overall go blow for blow. If you guys put it down as 50:50 though, then I wouldn't mind; it's an extremely close match either way. Most of the rundown has been stated and restated, so I'll just skip it.

I'd ban Smashville because the platform has the tendency to save Ike from easy gimps and set Mario up for Usmash/Uair/Utilt mindgames.

I'd prolly Counterpick FD mainly because Mario really has room to work with fireballs and spacing for a way in. BF works both for and against Mario heavily in this matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wtf, we've already beaten this matchup to death.

Anyhow, I'm convinced it's at least 6/4 Mario.

Mario draws out the approach, and can camp Ike whenever Ike tries to do any spacing tricks. If you're gonna whine "but you can powershield fireballs!" anyone can go up and powershield F-air. =/

Up-smash out of shield counters 95% of Ike's moveset. Up-B out of shield can get him when he Jabs.

Ike by far is also one of Mario's easiest comboing and juggling targets. It is easy for almost any character to simply Up-throw Ike and regrab him whenever he lands, but it doesn't stop there. Mario's U-air and U-tilt juggles are even better vs Ike than they are vs most characters due to his weight and inability to pull out any fast attacks below him.

And if you're gonna tell me Mario doesn't have range, you can say Hi to reverse F-smash, which I did testing on, and I discovered has more range than Marth's F-smash. One powershielded Ike F-air = free F-smash.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

you realize that mario's upsmash can't punish Ike's Fsmash Ftilt and Fair right? In order for those moves to be 5% of his move set then Ike needs to have 57 things punishable by upsmash. O hey you can't punish pummel, his jab, or any of his throws. Wow thats 190 moves that ike has punishable by mario's up smash!!

Dear god why isn't Ike banned with these many options?!?! He isn't meant for brawl.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-tilt can be punished on block pretty easily if Ike doesn't have optimal spacing (or PSed, since it's slow enough). And it's pretty laggy. F-air is not as laggy, but same story goes for it if Ike doesn't have optimal spacing. And it's also slow enough for a rather easy PS.

F-smash can be camped, and the ending lag is large enough to be punished in other ways so who the **** cares if it pushes away people 90 miles.

Jab is punished by Up-B.

If you do any other aerials, special moves, those get punished on block by Up-smash or by other dumb crap. Quick Draw fully charged has good shield pushback, but is so massively laggy that a reverse F-smash punishes it out of shield.

Mario basically can easily punish Ike's entire moveset on block. You can't really do anything fancy in this matchup, and anything that somehow isn't punishable on block, I could be camping out anyway. And as I was saying, if you're gonna whine that fireballs aren't a big deal because you can easily PS them, Ike's F-air is also an easy PS, and in that case a free F-smash for Mario.

All this especially matters when Mario lands hits or throws you upwards, since basically Ike is more or less helpless once he's tossed in the air. Especially on FD, you're more or less screwed if you do any attacks while coming down and the Mario doesn't suck at reacting. Pretty much all of Ike's aerials are blockable on reaction. Ike is pretty slow in the air, so it's not hard for Mario to chase and stay under him and then shield -> Up-smash whatever Ike does (including F-air). If Ike air dodges, that can be rather easily punished with grabs or D-air, both of which restart the situation for Ike again.

Right, so I'll expect you're gonna tell me something about Ike landing random Up-airs from his Up-throw...but he's significantly slower and more telegraphed, and the option of edgeguarding if Mario DIs towards the ledge isn't nearly as viable for him.

The one thing you can be glad about: Mario doesn't have very good grab range, so there is a bit more room for error on his part when throw juggling Ike. Of course, you gotta watch yourselves against a guy like ROB...who can easily win this matchup with just grabs. =/

 

[doom dragon 105]

A good friend of mine main Mario and here is what I notice

At low %'s is when Mario can hurt Ike. He can uptilt 3 4 times before you can get out if it. and with that he will be in your face with upairs and nairs. Mario has fireballs which make for an alright approach. Flood really screws your recovery. The cape not so much. Fsmash is really his only kill move for Ike.

On the other side of that Ike's fair out ranges anything Mario has (other than fireballs). Nairs work alot her. Bair is annoying since hes small. This matchup depends on the spacing really. Mario can die quickly though with ftilts fsmash bair ect.

I'll say either 50:50 or 55:45, 55 in Marios favor

 

[§leepy God]

55:45 Mario, mainly because charged Fludd > Aether offstage.

♫ Oh gawd I hate that so much. The very fact that you have to be very low to not get punished by that is just wrong in my book. And if Ike get's too low, he can get edged hogged if a Mario main know how to edge hog when Ike does Aether. ☼

 

[san.]

Easy in theory, but the fireballs alone aren't the problem. Mario can dish out 2 fireballs to put some pressure out, then follow up with jabs, a Nair, grab, anything that keeps you on your toes.

I think mario's fireballs are good for spacing and baiting bad moves, but not as a safe approach or followup against ike. If you're close enough for a followup, Ike can get hit with a fireball, yet still hit you at the same time.

Eh, I'll give you that one. If you go for a Fair, Mario can retreat with a fireball or FLUDD. Mario's Bair, Uair, and Nair are still viable options when an Ike is Nairing. Mario can land two Bairs in one shorthop, we usually use this for close ranged spacing. What Mario lacks in aerial range, he more than makes up for in speed. Being able to pressure Ike is imporant. Fireballs give him some room to work and he can juggle Ike. There's nothing Ike can do short of airdodging or countering. And if a Mario predicts that, the lag from the move will cause you to eat a Dsmash, Fsmash, jab, grab, almost anything.

I see what you mean about the retreating fireball. Mario has to keep quite a distance though, unless he will get hit with the fair. There's a risk there. It's the lack of range that makes it harder for mario to space the aerials than for Ike to try to retreat his nair. It also has very little landing lag with long-lasting hitboxes that cover all over him, and Ike is a fast fast-faller. Well spaced nair should not get punished by "almost anything." Ike doesn't and shouldn't use counter, ever, too (or at least in that situation) =p

Eh, they're dangerous all the same. Capestalling, if timed right, can edgehog an Aethering Ike. FLUDD's only dangerous if you overshoot the ledge, something you should watch out for. Granted that Quick Draw is an awful recovery move, I don't think it counts for anything to be able to gimp it.

What do you mean by capestalling edgehogging Ike? Do you mean the cape bouncing aether back, or simply grabing the ledge (which could be done with a simple speed hug). Cape shouldn't be too much of a problem for Ike unless he could already be gimped with a speedhug anyways. Ike can just reverse aether underneath the stage and not put in any directional input until the cape actually hits, and Ike can aim himself to the edge (if he was caped from onstage) or onstage and punished afterwards (if hit by capestall). Capestall shouldn't necessarily gimp Ike, but Mario should be wary about getting hit, too, and should be careful. FLUDD is a lot more dangerous, because you have to go low enough where you have to guess if the mario is going to FLUDD you or try to grab the ledge.

Mario wins the battle of pressure, despite Ike having that amazing jab.

Can you explain? Thanks =) Just confused, because I always felt that mario had to work harder to win this match than Ike.

Not so much. ^^
He really suffers against anyone with fast, ranged tilts like Donkey Kong. Ike's decent from above, Upsmash as plenty of lag, Uptilt is a nice option. And a grounded Aether's not too bad.

He=Mario?? o_O
It's just that against something like Ike's upsmash, attempting to attack it is quite dangerous because of it's huge range. Ike crouches when initiating upsmash, too. If you're caught above Ike, it's best to hope to air dodge and get out of that hitbox, because it isn't hard for ike to time upsmash out of air dodge. If you're going away from him, air dodge 100%, and towards/close to Ike, more a slight guessing game with a positional advantage to Ike. Up tilt isn't too good in this situation. Grounded aether is horrible in this situation.

Mario can kill just as early, if not earlier than Ike. I think it's 50:50, if not 55:45 for either side.

Mario can kill earlier than Ike? Are you factoring in gimps or something? Ike has many powerful moves and is heavier than mario, too. Mario should be quite a bit more worried about dying to such a powerful character. I still think it's advantage to Ike, but I'm going to try to read more to see what else mario has on Ike.

 

[Kimchi]

Mario's fireballs are decent for approaching. Ike unfortunately can't jab on punish if he shields Mario's fireball, because Mario's jab comes out faster. Ike can grab Mario though so again, Mario's approach can be shut out. I think what Straked meant when he said capestalling edgehogging is when Mario is on the edge, he ledgehops cape behind him, and he regrabs the ledge. It's pretty effective on Ike I suppose if Mario's able to hit Ike at the apex of Aether. I'll have to admit Mario gimps Ike pretty well. Like what the Sleepy One said, if Ike recovers low, a competent Mario will just edge hog or if Ike recovers high, FLUDD or Cape will send him back down. Mario has some great juggling options, but I don't think Mario kills just as early as Ike. Reason why I think Mario has the advantage in this matchup is because of his easy gimps on Ike as well as the ability to camp better than Ike.

 

[san.]

Kimchi: does that work on reverse aether, too? I wouldn't think an Ike would have to use forward aether unless he's already going to get gimped by simply grabbing the ledge anyways. FLUDD>>>>cape in this matchup in my opinion.

F-tilt can be punished on block pretty easily if Ike doesn't have optimal spacing (or PSed, since it's slow enough). And it's pretty laggy. F-air is not as laggy, but same story goes for it if Ike doesn't have optimal spacing. And it's also slow enough for a rather easy PS.

Most things could be punished on block with bad spacing.. Ike shouldn't be whipping out ftilt unless mario gets too close with a fireball or to get mario where he wants him offstage or to punish an airdodge. Ftilt should usually be angled up. Using ftilt randomly where it can easily be punished is not good.

F-smash can be camped, and the ending lag is large enough to be punished in other ways so who the **** cares if it pushes away people 90 miles.

I agree that fsmash isn't the best move in this match for Ike, but it pushing away people "90 miles" is actually a very good thing. Fsmash also goes through fireballs, so it may be harder for Mario to recover high against Ike if Ike abuses his range near the ledge.

Jab is punished by Up-B.

The first hit of Ike's jab directly? Ike has no chance to shield? If Ike has a chance to respond to this, this can be baited. How does Mario's nair do instead? Would good marios try to nair?

If you do any other aerials, special moves, those get punished on block by Up-smash or by other dumb crap. Quick Draw fully charged has good shield pushback, but is so massively laggy that a reverse F-smash punishes it out of shield.

How can Ike's spaced aerials be punishable by upsmash on block? I don't get that at all. QD should not be factored in this match because Ikes don't use it to attack.

Mario basically can easily punish Ike's entire moveset on block. You can't really do anything fancy in this matchup, and anything that somehow isn't punishable on block, I could be camping out anyway. And as I was saying, if you're gonna whine that fireballs aren't a big deal because you can easily PS them, Ike's F-air is also an easy PS, and in that case a free F-smash for Mario.

Ike can also jab through fireballs =p I just factor in powershields with fireballs because they're so slow they hardly move and you can see them with seconds and seconds to respond. jabbing from the dash powershield could do something if the mario kept on fireballing or something. Mario would have to keep his distance. No whining, though. Not sure how easy it is for mario to punish a spaced fair that easily like that.

All this especially matters when Mario lands hits or throws you upwards, since basically Ike is more or less helpless once he's tossed in the air. Especially on FD, you're more or less screwed if you do any attacks while coming down and the Mario doesn't suck at reacting. Pretty much all of Ike's aerials are blockable on reaction. Ike is pretty slow in the air, so it's not hard for Mario to chase and stay under him and then shield -> Up-smash whatever Ike does (including F-air). If Ike air dodges, that can be rather easily punished with grabs or D-air, both of which restart the situation for Ike again.

Retreating nair is quite difficult to get around for mario, and isn't as easy to punish out of shield as a fair from above. I do agree that this will have to consider Ike having to outsmart the mario in this situation with timed fast-falls and nairs and spacing.

Right, so I'll expect you're gonna tell me something about Ike landing random Up-airs from his Up-throw...but he's significantly slower and more telegraphed, and the option of edgeguarding if Mario DIs towards the ledge isn't nearly as viable for him.

Umm...what? up throw to up air? I'm not really understanding what you mean. Ike really only has some slight guessing game followups to his throws.. so they're not exactly too reliable. I'm not sure how bthrow to dash attack works on mario, either.

The one thing you can be glad about: Mario doesn't have very good grab range, so there is a bit more room for error on his part when throw juggling Ike. Of course, you gotta watch yourselves against a guy like ROB...who can easily win this matchup with just grabs. =/

Bad grab range is pretty bad when punishing after shield, isn't it? The way you talked made mario sound like DDD for a second =p Joke aside, I really can't see how a well spaced mario can get around a well spaced Ike, not to mention the difficulty to kill. Mario should rely on gimps in this match, but against a good ike who's used to this, it should be quite the challenge. Mario's worst fear should be getting upsmashed or ftilted.

 

[Judge Judy]

A majority of Ike's moves are good against Mario if Ike can manage to outspace Mario all the time, however, the startup and ending lag on most of Ike's moves are very punishable; with fireballs and frame advantages in most areas, it's not hard for Mario to get inside Ike's range. Offstage, Ike gets *****, there's no denying that; even Ike's trusty SA frames don't help him against FLUDD and the cape. Still, Ike's jab is very good against Mario and is hard for Mario to get around.