Ike: A *Temporary* Detailed Matchup Guide: #37 - Ike(Fsmash)

[Kimchi]

This is a temporary Matchup thread for Ike open for discussion on the matchups that have not been covered yet as well as possible discussion on previous matchups that have been already covered until YagamiLight returns to update the original thread. The last matchup that was covered was the Ness matchup and the next matchup to be discussed is the Captain Falcon matchup. Please make sure to contribute genuine advice, refraining from double posting, and posting in understandable language. Thank you.

#34 Captain Falcon

60 vs 40
Ike outranges Falcon easily, but since Falcon has his speed, Ike has to rely on a close-ranged game and on quick, powerful moves like Bair to win. Falcon meanwhile, still has to approach warily because Ike's range is something to watch out for, especially from a retreating Fair. Falcon has to rely on his movement speed to punish Ike as well as juggling Ike in the air to rack up damage.


For Ike, it's dangerous to go offstage against Falcon, because Falcons tend to like to recover low and at high percentages, Falcon Dive's stage spike is something to watch out for. At the very most, Ike should edgehog against a Falcon. Walkoff Fairs could serve to be useful however in certain cases when the Falcon is far from the ledge. Walkoff Dair is a risk however in that it all depends on how good the Ike's timing is. Ike's ground game beats Falcon's ground game, but Falcon, with his movement speed, could easily punish all of Ike's slow moves. Falcon also can gimp Ike surprisingly well with his aerials, especially his Fair even if it is flubbed. Falcons have several great follow throughs like jab cancelling -> grab or Fair -> Uair. Watch out for his Bair locks. He could even follow up a Bair with a Falcon Punch. Speaking of Falcon Punch, don't underestimate the relatively good horizontal range that it has. If Ike isn't careful, he could say goodbye to a stock at 50% so do be careful about the punch.


In the end though, it comes down to whichever person plays smarter with spacing, the player with the better mindgames, as well as who beats who on the ground. In terms of stage picks, Battlefield benefits both characters. Ike should ban Norfair and should counterpick Pirate Ship or Yoshi's Island.

#35 - Mario

#36 - Samus

40 vs 60
The battle of the low tiers! While one might assume that Ike vs Samus is easily in Ike's favor because Samus has no killing potential, that is clearly not the case for this matchup. Let's discuss the matchup.

Samus is one of the floatiest characters in Brawl. She jumps pretty high and her landing back on the stage is pretty slow. She is so cool, because she wears space armor (*in awe of the armor). Anyway, what can Samus do? She can charge a gun like Megaman, shoot missiles (either slow or fast), drop a mini bomb, walkoff Dair using the normal controls without fastfalling (WHAT!?!?!? RYKO?), and oh, I think we forgot something: her ZAIR! Samus also has some great projectiles as well as great juggling potential with her Uair. Her Bair is pretty powerful and her Fair has some decent range. Ike on the other hand, has his powerful, ranged aerials and his great jab game. Ike vs Samus is a pretty patient matchup for both characters. For one thing, Samus can easily force Ike to approach with her annoying projectile game. While Ike is pretty much forced to approach against a Samus, approaching her is not that easy due to Samus's excellent range with her Zair (reaches across 1/4 or 3/8 of FD if I recall).

What Ike essentially has to do is time the approach so that he doesn't get bombarded with projectiles and avoid getting hit back by Samus's Zair. I recommend that an Ike goes a ground approach against Samus, because something I forgot to mention is that Samus can use her Screw attack out of shield if Ike hits her shield with aerials. When I say ground approach, I really do mean powershielding on the way instead of charging your way through her projectiles and racking up an easy 30-50% from missiles and charged shots galore. Once you're actually in and personal with Samus, then Ike gains the advantage. Samus's ground game is pitiful and is nothing compared to Ike's. Although, you should still be wary of her Screw attack OOS as well as ridiculous grab range. What Samus essentially has over Ike though are her aerial's juggling abilities such as her Uair and her Fair. Watch out for her Dair -> Screw Attack. Offstage wise, the best thing I would advise for an Ike player is to simply at best, try to edgehog a Samus. Samus can recover notoriously low as well as stall her recovery with her Down special (the mini bomb). Samus also has her Zair to recover with so at best, edgehog. Don't even try to spike her or intercept her, because she can easily Zair edgehog your Aether and her Dair is better than yours.
Stagewise, the most obvious neutral to ban would be FD because of its flatness and her excellent projectile game here. I also highly recommend that Ikes don't go to Battlefield against a Samus, because Samus's Zair works well through platforms and her Screw attack can be abused on this stage due to the platforms hindering Ike's aerial game. A neutral I would recommend would probably be Yoshi's Island, because Samus can't apply her projectile game too much on Yoshi's Island and the huge platform in the middle doesn't help her too much for Screw Attack. Some CPs I would recommend are Rainbow Cruise if you're good at recovering there or Delfino Plaza, because throughout much of the stage shifts, she doesn't have a projectile game advantage, something that she needs over Ike. Just make sure to watch out for her spikes when the stage shifts to a water element, which is also a reason Ikes shouldn't really go to Pirate Ship against a good Samus.

Ike definitely will have to play patient against a Samus, knowing when to approach through the wall of projectiles and patiently building up damage against a Samus. She doesn't have much killing power, but Samus definitely can rack up damage pretty quickly with her projectile game, her fantastic juggling potential aerials, and her Zair. Offstage, just try to Aether as quickly as possible if you see a Samus trying to spike you to activate Super armor frames and nullifying her spike. But yeah, play patiently, and don't approach unless you're ready to. Make sure you can power shield well before you play a good Samus!

 

[metroid1117]

It doesn't seem like you've posted on the Falcon boards to come and comment, so I'll just do that now. *Posts in discussion thread.*

Can't say I'm familiar with this match-up (since I've never played a good Falcon offline), but walk-off DAirs and simple edgehogs absolutely destroy his up+B. Be careful for the aerial Raptor Boost when you try to intercept him offstage.

 

[Player-3]

I havent played many good ikes, but my friend plays a decent one, so i have a little matchup experience

this is probobly 50:50 or a little worse for falcon, its not a bad matchup at all for either person, falcon is fast, but when ike hits you, you notice.

falcon gets edgehogged quite easily, etc etc etc

wait for another falcon with more experience though
:D

 

[Teh Brettster]

Isn't he one of those characters that just gets caught in jabs really easily?
His recovery = gimptacular. Spike him.
What Kimchi said about the Raptor Boost while trying to intercept. If he gets you caught and it looks like you're going to hit the side of the stage, be ready to tech.

I don't really have that much to say. Nobody I play mains the Falconator, so I don't know if I've really seen any good ones. (Last one I played was a friend trying to embarrass me in a MM... he got 3-stocked on Pirate Ship; spiked all three times.)

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I've played Hiza back at FS5, and also secondary Falcon.

Falcon defiantly has the speed advantage, and could possibly punish a perfectly spaced Fair with a grab due to his running speed: however he also has no answer to properly spaced Nairs. There is nothing to punish, and he has nothing that can get through due to the disjointedness. At the same time, I'm fairly sure Ike's Jab beats out or clanks with all of Falcon's moves. I'd have to double check the kick and jab, but outside of that the only moves I can think of that beat Ike's jab are grab and Falcon Dive. Seeing as it comes out on frame 3, it's a very viable option. On the other hand, Falcon's jab is also very good and can be used to punish anything that wasn't spaced properly.

Both can punish each other well, but Ike's punishing hurts more. Both can gimp each other easily, who wins is probably stage dependent. Ike wins in spiking.

Air to air, it depends on the range. If Falcon is RIGHT in Ike's face, his uair should beat out everything Ike attempts to do thanks to the speed on that thing. However, the moment his uair is out of range, Ike wins. Fair will outspace everything.

Ike has to reply on Jab, Nair, Bair, and grab mainly in this match, not unlike in the Sonic match up. Stick to the fast moves, unless Falcon leaves himself open for a slower move. For example, you should be punishing Falcon Kicks most of the time if he attempts that. I *think* Utilt can get up before Falcon Kick connects if he was crazy enough to do it from maximum range.

I'd personally say 65:35 Ike's favor from my experience with Hiza, on paper it might say 6:4. *shrugs*

 

[Kimchi]

In terms of neutrals, I'd have to say Battlefield is the best choice for Ike against Falcon. Falcon gains several notable disadvantages when he's on a platform. One disadvantage is that Falcon doesn't have any safe aerials to use when coming down from platform. His BAir is honestly not as good as Ike's, and his aerial dodge is slow unlike Ike's. UAir's not really useful for Falcon when he's coming down from a platform and his NAir is also negligible in terms of usefulness while falling from a platform. Falcon's short-hopped Dair has no landing lag frames and can follow up relatively well, like jab cancel -> grab. You don't have to worry about the Tapion Combo though lol. I don't really recommend that Ike follows Falcon offstage. Falcon has an excellent recovery despite the fact that it has to latch onto an opponent to inflict damage. He can recover at a pretty low height and he always has his Side-B for his horizontal recovery, though it could easily be edgehogged. Falcon has to make sure every one of his moves count, because otherwise Ike will punish him with jabs, grabs. One thing that I think Falcon has trouble with against Ike is killing him. I don't think Falcon will have too much trouble racking up damage against Ike, but apart from DSmash and Fsmash, I don't think Falcon will kill Ike early. Burning Knee is so hard to hit in Brawl, though Ike may be an easier target. UAir kills Ike at around 140%, and Bair kills Ike at around 120% and above I think. Ike has to make sure he's ready to tech anytime when he goes offstage against a Falcon, especially when Falcon uses his Up+B.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

BF is probably Falcon's best Neutral. >_> Uair ***** through platforms.

 

[metroid1117]

Falcon defiantly has the speed advantage, and could possibly punish a perfectly spaced Fair with a grab due to his running speed: however he also has no answer to properly spaced Nairs. There is nothing to punish, and he has nothing that can get through due to the disjointedness.

Actually, Ike's NAir has 13 frames of landing lag; I imagine that a well-spaced Raptor Boost would be able to get through.

At the same time, I'm fairly sure Ike's Jab beats out or clanks with all of Falcon's moves.

Technically, it won't clash with his Smashes since they all do > 14% .

I'd personally say 65:35 Ike's favor from my experience with Hiza, on paper it might say 6:4. *shrugs*

I think it's not that disadvantageous for Falcon; it's difficult for Ike to maintain proper spacing, because Falcon can just rush in with a shield every time Ike leaves the ground. This means that even if you use NAir, he could be close enough to retaliate with a shieldgrab. Also, Falcon can gimp Ike surprisingly hard; jumping out with a weak knee is surprisingly effective, since Ike's recovery is either completely vertical or completely horizontal. He can also weak knee -> UAir, which makes matters worse. This is, of course, in addition to the relative ease characters have with edgehogging Aether.

I do believe, however, that from speculation it feels like it's an advantage for Ike; Falcon can gimp Ike pretty badly, but Ike can gimp him and easily kill him, which Falcon cannot do so well without landing the ever-rare knee.

... his NAir is also negligible in terms of usefulness while falling from a platform.

Actually, I've seen Rebaz (European Falcon, he has some great matches on YouTube against Isaw's Link) do a NAir (single hit) -> grab close to the ground before; Falcon would probably be able to drop through a platform with a fastfallled single NAir -> grab.

 

[Kimchi]

Actually, Ike's NAir has 13 frames of landing lag; I imagine that a well-spaced Raptor Boost would be able to get through.



Technically, it won't clash with his Smashes since they all do > 14% .



I think it's not that disadvantageous for Falcon; it's difficult for Ike to maintain proper spacing, because Falcon can just rush in with a shield every time Ike leaves the ground. This means that even if you use NAir, he could be close enough to retaliate with a shieldgrab. Also, Falcon can gimp Ike surprisingly hard; jumping out with a weak knee is surprisingly effective, since Ike's recovery is either completely vertical or completely horizontal. He can also weak knee -> UAir, which makes matters worse. This is, of course, in addition to the relative ease characters have with edgehogging Aether.

I do believe, however, that from speculation it feels like it's an advantage for Ike; Falcon can gimp Ike pretty badly, but Ike can gimp him and easily kill him, which Falcon cannot do so well without landing the ever-rare knee.

While I do agree that Falcon could gimp Ike relatively well, I disagree in that Falcon can rush in with a shield grab, even when Ike uses his Nair. Ike can immediately follow up with jabs after the Nair. His jabs comes out on frame 3 while Falcon's grab activates on frame 7. There is of course a solution to the gimping problem that Falcon could create for Ike, which pertains to most matchups. That is, to momentum cancel appropriately, and save your jump so that even when Falcon hits Ike with a weak knee, he still has an extra jump and can make it back.
@NidtendoDevil, I guess I'm underrating Falcon's Uair on a platform. I don't know though, Battlefield seems like the stage of choice against Falcon for me.

 

[Player-3]

Its not that bad, falcon can gimp ike easily too
Our upb beats your upb

 

[kamimari36]

If angled, Falcon's Dsmash can put Ike into the unrecoverable zone.
I use Dtilt for a spike. It works wonders to spike Falcon's easily predictable recoveries.
Whose jab comes out first? Falcon's or Ike's?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nair has 13 frames of landing lag? O_o

I'm fairly sure I can move a lot sooner then it takes Ike's Utilt to come out >_> (11 IIRC). That doesn't sound right.

 

[Mit]

One disadvantage is that Falcon doesn't have any safe aerials to use when coming down from platform. His BAir is honestly not as good as Ike's, and his aerial dodge is slow unlike Ike's. UAir's not really useful for Falcon when he's coming down from a platform and his NAir is also negligible in terms of usefulness while falling from a platform.

Uair and nair are actually Falcon's two most useful moves when falling from platforms. Bair is not always fast enough, dair is obviously not fast enough. Uair however, can be done pretty much instantaneously when falling through, and covers a wide range. You may not be entirely familiar with the move, but you can use it on standing opponents to good effect. It comes out fast, and auto-cancels.

Nair also auto-cancels and comes out quickly, and the first hit combos. After hitting them with the weak first hit, Falcon can go into jab>jab>grab, or, if you don't airdodge after getting hit with it (and I don't think you guys have any fast enough attacks to cover your front) you can be dsmashed (but yes, an airdodge or bair from you guys would avoid this).

and he always has his Side-B for his horizontal recovery, though it could easily be edgehogged.

Don't worry, unless the Falcon player is horrible, he will never, ever recover with side-b when his opponent is close by, unless he's well above you when recovering high, and can punish something with a side-b spike. That's rare though, and still dangerous.

Burning Knee is so hard to hit in Brawl, though Ike may be an easier target.

He is Ike can also be approached (well, Falcon's rarely actually approach, perhaps if we were running in to punish or something) with a shorthopped fair. The flubbed knee will hit Ike in the head, cancel when Falcon hits the ground, and allow us to go into a jab combo. If you accidentally jump into it or something, it could result in a sweetspotted fair. The move happens a lot more often on bigger characters.

Sweetspotted fairs can also be used to punish, especially if the Falcon player has a really good handle on landing knees. Usually if we can land a sweetspotted knee, we will, or we won't try to.


All that said the matchup is still likely in Ike's favor, because he's just so powerful, and if played defensively can be a real nightmare for Falcon. It's also easy for us to get caught up in powerful, large-range sword moves when we're hopping all over the place, and you can only run into a few of those before you're dead.


Also:

Isn't he one of those characters that just gets caught in jabs really easily?
His recovery = gimptacular. Spike him.

Falcon's recovery is excellent, and definitely not gimptacular. Up-b's range is huge, and leaves Falcon with a lot of leeway in the air. As Kimchi said, I really wouldn't recommend chasing him off the level, atleast not when he's low. Due to Falcon's up-b's huge range, he could dodge your attack with aerial movement or his double jump, and likely punish you with an uair, which might not leave you in a great position. After all that, he should still be able to recover to the level. Also, if you happen to accidentally get grabbed by Falcon's up-b down there, stagespikes are very, very dangerous, and it's a big reason why many characters think twice before chasing him down there.

 

[Kimchi]

One disadvantage I'd like to point about Falcon's recovery though is that if Falcon uses his aerial dodge, he's hard-pressed to making it back onto the ledge. Therefore, I think it'd be really useful if Ike can put a little pressure on Falcon offstage, something simple like walkoff Fair or just going offstage and then not doing anything at all. This would bait Falcon's air dodge and then he'd probably screw up his recovery. Once again though, I might be underrating Falcon's recovery so I could be wrong. I've died plenty of times though when I was Falcon and I air dodged while I was trying to recover.

 

[t3h n00b]

I skimmed all of this, but didn't really read anything fully... stage-wise, I think Yoshi's Island would be a good Ike stage, since it seems like Ike can't really be gimped here, and can get fast KOs off the sides, but then again I'm a Falcon main. Battlefield is probably my best stage, but I know that characters with swords are great here, so if it's comfortable for you Ike mains, it's not like Falcon has some crazy advantage here. Falcon's jab is excellent, but Ike's beats it , so you can jab him out of his jab.


The moves to watch out for are uair- can juggle if you aren't smart with airdodges, great range, fast, and can kill well if unstaled, bair- great kill move, great priority, and utilt-great range and knockback for a tilt. But Ike outranges Falcon and has stronger kill moves obviously. You want to play at maximum range, like Marth, to have the best chance of winning here. If Falcon gets close, he can jab>grab and use his superior (imo at least) aerial game to rack up damage, and nair does combo to jab, grab, and even Falcon Dive.


Which brings me to another thing, Falcon Dive is a move to watch out for in this matchup. It has grab priority, so it is a very easy way to add 17% of damage if you're just shielding on a platform. Recovery-wise, if you try to edgehog and time it wrong, it will catch you hanging onto the ledge, and stage spike you if you don't tech. If you don't edgehog, it has a great sweetspot range and horizontal movement. You can gimp Falcon, but a lot of times, it will end up with you getting hit, or even spiked, if Raptor Boost is used wisely. I wouldn't edgeguard a good Falcon offstage, but I'm sure you guys are far better with Ike than me.


If you keep Falcon on the ground, he has a massive range disadvantage, and will have an extremely hard time winning the fight. Keep in mind, though, that Falcon is very heavy, and with good momentum canceling with uair(not even necessarily DI, but that obviously helps a lot), your opponent will live very long. I'd say Ike wins, 65-35, since Falcon has no good approach in general, a problem which is compounded by Ike's massive range.

 

[metroid1117]

While I do agree that Falcon could gimp Ike relatively well, I disagree in that Falcon can rush in with a shield grab, even when Ike uses his Nair. Ike can immediately follow up with jabs after the Nair. His jabs comes out on frame 3 while Falcon's grab activates on frame 7.

I meant just running in with a shield when Ike leaves the ground; it doesn't have to be into a NAir, just so long as he's close enough that using an aerial wouldn't be safe.

If angled, Falcon's Dsmash can put Ike into the unrecoverable zone.
I use Dtilt for a spike. It works wonders to spike Falcon's easily predictable recoveries.
Whose jab comes out first? Falcon's or Ike's?

Falcon's DSmash can be angled? Falcon's DTilt spikes?

Ike's jab comes out on frame 3, I don't know when Falcon's jab comes out because I couldn't find any frame data at your forums about it.

Falcon's recovery is excellent, and definitely not gimptacular. Up-b's range is huge, and leaves Falcon with a lot of leeway in the air. As Kimchi said, I really wouldn't recommend chasing him off the level, atleast not when he's low.

I personally think Falcon's up+B is a double-edged sword; it has excellent horizontal range when using it forwards because of some weird momentum system, but if you try using it backwards it completely backfires and gets you nowhere.

Anyways, Falcon's up+B is very easy to gimp with a walk-off DAir; it has excellent vertical range that can easily catch Falcon if he tries coming from underneath. The only risk, like you said, is if he grabs you. If you're at low %, it shouldn't be much of a problem, since Ike's Aether has good vertical range and you should be able to use your double jump early because of Brawl's low hitstun. If you're at high %, you will, of course be forced to tech. I wouldn't see this as too big of a problem, though; in Melee, people have gotten used to teching Falcon's/Ganondorf's up+B so that whenever they get caught it's not too much of a deal. I'm sure a similar thing will happen in Brawl as time passes and people get used to the timing.

Someone has to check if Ike could walljump-tech and then DAir Falcon out of his up+B. That would be hilarious .

 

[t3h n00b]

Falcon's DSmash can be angled? Falcon's DTilt spikes?

Yeah, whoever posted that was wrong lol. Although Falcon's fsmash can be angled, and when angled downward, it semi-spikes

Ike's jab comes out on frame 3, I don't know when Falcon's jab comes out because I couldn't find any frame data at your forums about it.

I'm pretty sure Falcon's jab is frame 3, but your jab can simply beat out Falcon's jab. Although his is still useful in the matchup for jab>grab.

I personally think Falcon's up+B is a double-edged sword; it has excellent horizontal range when using it forwards because of some weird momentum system, but if you try using it backwards it completely backfires and gets you nowhere.

Anyways, Falcon's up+B is very easy to gimp with a walk-off DAir; it has excellent vertical range that can easily catch Falcon if he tries coming from underneath. The only risk, like you said, is if he grabs you. If you're at low %, it shouldn't be much of a problem, since Ike's Aether has good vertical range and you should be able to use your double jump early because of Brawl's low hitstun. If you're at high %, you will, of course be forced to tech. I wouldn't see this as too big of a problem, though; in Melee, people have gotten used to teching Falcon's/Ganondorf's up+B so that whenever they get caught it's not too much of a deal. I'm sure a similar thing will happen in Brawl as time passes and people get used to the timing.

Someone has to check if Ike could walljump-tech and then DAir Falcon out of his up+B. That would be hilarious .

First off, any decent Falcon main won't suicide with Falcon Diving under the lip of a stage. There is pretty substantal air speed in either direction, and if you are facing away from the ledge while caught under the stage, it is immensely easy to wrap around the edge with it, as Falcon curls up and pretty much renders edgehogging useless. Also, not only are a lot of current Brawl players not familiar with competitive Melee, but Falcon Dive's mechanics have been changed a lot. In Melee, it wouldn't latch on to an edgehogger, so most of the stage spike opportunities that exist now weren't in Melee. And yes, teching obviously works and is good in principle, but not only does the lag when the move latches on often throw off opponents, but Falcon doesn't go into helpless state, so not only could he use Falcon Dive again, but Raptor Boost as well. If you get stagespiked and are just far enough to reach with Aether, it's more reasonable that Falcon will edgehog you than get hit by an arbitrary dair by Ike.

 

[Kimchi]

Captain Falcon's frame data is here. Eh, I doubt any Ike will just randomly throw out aerials, assuming that they're competent of course.

If angled, Falcon's Dsmash can put Ike into the unrecoverable zone.
I use Dtilt for a spike. It works wonders to spike Falcon's easily predictable recoveries.
Whose jab comes out first? Falcon's or Ike's?

Yeah, that's a first. I don't think Falcon's DSmash can be angled. Apparently, Falcon's and Ike's jabs start at the same time; both at frame 3, but I think Ike's second jab comes out faster. I'll have to double check.

Falcon's DSmash can be angled? Falcon's DTilt spikes?

I think he meant Ike's DTilt that spikes lol.

Anyways, Falcon's up+B is very easy to gimp with a walk-off DAir; it has excellent vertical range that can easily catch Falcon if he tries coming from underneath. The only risk, like you said, is if he grabs you. If you're at low %, it shouldn't be much of a problem, since Ike's Aether has good vertical range and you should be able to use your double jump early because of Brawl's low hitstun. If you're at high %, you will, of course be forced to tech. I wouldn't see this as too big of a problem, though; in Melee, people have gotten used to teching Falcon's/Ganondorf's up+B so that whenever they get caught it's not too much of a deal. I'm sure a similar thing will happen in Brawl as time passes and people get used to the timing.

I don't know, walkoff Dair seems sorta risky to pull off, too, unless you get the timing down. If I'm not mistaken, Falcon gets invincibility frames when he activates his Up + B and it latches onto you. I used to always get the walkoff Dair timing wrong and always hit Falcon right when his Up + B latched onto me. I need to practice teching to be honest. That's one of my major problems when I play Falcon; I could never tech properly and always get the timing wrong, especially when I'm at a high percentage and I try to wall-tech jump.

Someone has to check if Ike could walljump-tech and then DAir Falcon out of his up+B. That would be hilarious .

This might be possible actually. In Claw's latest compilation video of his Falcon, he walljump teched Ganon's Up + B recovery and then he DAired Ganon :o. It was amazing to watch and he was also able to make it back onto the ledge. Ike might be able to do the same thing. I wish I could test it but I am so bad at teching it's not even funny .

 

[t3h n00b]

I don't know, walkoff Dair seems sorta risky to pull off, too, unless you get the timing down. If I'm not mistaken, Falcon gets invincibility frames when he activates his Up + B and it latches onto you. I used to always get the walkoff Dair timing wrong and always hit Falcon right when his Up + B latched onto me. I need to practice teching to be honest. That's one of my major problems when I play Falcon; I could never tech properly and always get the timing wrong, especially when I'm at a high percentage and I try to wall-tech jump.

Falcon Dive has grab priority, so if you hit him as he latches on, Falcon will take damage but no knockback. About teching it when it stage spikes, I can't do it in Falcon dittos usually, even when I know it's coming. It's a lot harder to tech that you would think, or at least for me, and especially if you don't expect it and are trying to land a hit on Falcon (or buffer something stupid ).

This might be possible actually. In Claw's latest compilation video of his Falcon, he walljump teched Ganon's Up + B recovery and then he DAired Ganon :o. It was amazing to watch and he was also able to make it back onto the ledge. Ike might be able to do the same thing. I wish I could test it but I am so bad at teching it's not even funny .

It would probably work, but Ganon's recovery move actually has weird hitstun properties, and at about 90%, Falcon can uair before Ganon can do anything, and not get stage spiked. So that may mean teching would be easier for Ganondorf's, but I wouldn't know.

 

[Teh Brettster]

All you have to do to be able to tech the move is to practice it... I can tech DK's cargo spike a fair amount of the time because of that. Sonic's Dthrow is cake.. and I'm working on G&W's Dthrow. It would only take a few minutes to learn to tech the move, seriously.

 

[t3h n00b]

All you have to do to be able to tech the move is to practice it... I can tech DK's cargo spike a fair amount of the time because of that. Sonic's Dthrow is cake.. and I'm working on G&W's Dthrow. It would only take a few minutes to learn to tech the move, seriously.

I teched all of those but Sonic's dthrow the first time I saw them (I don't remember ever getting dthrown by a Sonic). All of them have a pretty noticeable throwing animation, while with Falcon Dive, there is a long pause, where everything still looks the same, and you get released. Obviously, the timing is the same each time, but there's no easily discernible way to tech Falcon Dive without a lot of experience.

 

[metroid1117]

Captain Falcon's frame data is here.

...

FALCON BOARDS!!! WHY ISN'T YOUR FRAME DATA IN ANY OF THE STICKIES?!?!?!?

Lol, but seriously, frame data is important.

Anyways, what would be a good/bad counterpick against Falcon? I usually just counterpick BF every time, so I have very little experience on any stage that's not neutral.

 

[t3h n00b]

...

FALCON BOARDS!!! WHY ISN'T YOUR FRAME DATA IN ANY OF THE STICKIES?!?!?!?

Lol, but seriously, frame data is important.

Anyways, what would be a good/bad counterpick against Falcon? I usually just counterpick BF every time, so I have very little experience on any stage that's not neutral.

The frame data isn't complete. I'd assume when (if -_-) there's full frame data, it would get a sticky. I don't think there are any really great or terrible stages for Falcon, but Battlefield is a pretty good stage for him. You should ban Norfair, as his aerials, utilt, and Falcon Dive are very effective there. Rainbow Cruise is a little awkward, but I'm pretty sure it's more awkward for Ike. My best guess for a good Ike stage against Falcon is Brawl Yoshi's Island.

 

[eRonin]

I think Falcon's best stage against Ike is Final Destination. Neither has any projectiles so there's no need to worry about campers. One reason why I think Falcon is good is that his recovery doesn't get trapped by the lip of Final Destination, so spiking him would be a lot harder there because the falcon could just up-B straight into the lip and DI towards the stage. You could just walk-off bair, though...

I think Ike has the advantage in general. Falcon's jab game is probably his best tool, but Ike's jab seems to destroy it, as the first jab for both look like they are equally fast but Ike's has longer range. Ike generally outranges Falcon in all other regards anyway, so this is a sort of tough match-up for Falcon. Falcon's land and air speed does buffer Ike's advantages a little bit.

I'm going to say Ike 65:35 Falcon, or 6:4

 

[Rykoshet]

Smashfox93 kicked my *** a couple times, falcon is probably at the very worst a 6:4

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I can't say much on this match up. I just **** both falcons I play but neither of them main him so idk. I don't even remember what I do to win...

 

[Mit]

One disadvantage I'd like to point about Falcon's recovery though is that if Falcon uses his aerial dodge, he's hard-pressed to making it back onto the ledge. Therefore, I think it'd be really useful if Ike can put a little pressure on Falcon offstage, something simple like walkoff Fair or just going offstage and then not doing anything at all. This would bait Falcon's air dodge and then he'd probably screw up his recovery. Once again though, I might be underrating Falcon's recovery so I could be wrong. I've died plenty of times though when I was Falcon and I air dodged while I was trying to recover.

With a double jump Falcon can recover from very, very low, so you guys would have to chase pretty low for him to airdodge and fall low enough to not be able to recover.

I for one don't typically airdodge when recovering low (which is almost always, if I'm in mid range I'll always fall low and then recover), and will instead avoid opponents who chase me offstage by simply continuing to fall and moving away from them (unless their recovery is far superior, like Meta Knight or ROB or something like that, in which case I'll lay on my own offensive pressure while trying to recover, and either go for an up-b grab with grab armor, or worm my way to the ledge). After doing this I can either double jump uair, or just double jump and go straight for the ledge quite quickly.

I don't know, I've played many opponents, and chasing me offstage and gimping is just not something that happens often. If anything the best thing I think to do is exploit Falcon when he has to climb up from ledges. He doesn't** have many good options against people with disjointed hitboxes, and if you predict what recovery he's going to use to climb up, you can score hits pretty easily.

Or, I don't know if this is something you mains do, but I've had Ike's spam aether on me while I'm hanging on the edge a lot (like, just run off, aether backwards either to the ledge or onto the stage). If you do it around when invincibility frames run out from Falcon hanging on the ledge, it usually makes contact. There's really not much Falcon can even do against aether, unless we're behind you for some reason and can up-B you, or have a very, very well-timed, well-placed dair at the top of your aether (I've done this like, once.)

Edit for moar:

Anyways, Falcon's up+B is very easy to gimp with a walk-off DAir; it has excellent vertical range that can easily catch Falcon if he tries coming from underneath.

I'm no expert on Ike, but wouldn't a walkoff dair still move you a decent ways away from the ledge? I could see you catching a Falcon offguard with this maybe once, but afterwards all we'd have to do is move directly below the ledge, and recover straight up. A walkoff bair might work, but the timing would have to be pretty great. Falcon's up-b autosnaps quite fast to the ledge, and it does so from relatively far away.

 

[Slaps]

I'm no expert on Ike, but wouldn't a walkoff dair still move you a decent ways away from the ledge? I could see you catching a Falcon offguard with this maybe once, but afterwards all we'd have to do is move directly below the ledge, and recover straight up. A walkoff bair might work, but the timing would have to be pretty great. Falcon's up-b autosnaps quite fast to the ledge, and it does so from relatively far away.

eh... with c-stick on tilt we can control the walk-off Dair much easier since we don't have to worry about fast-falling so unless falcon plans on up-Bing from a weird angle under the lip of the stage then we can get him lol

 

[Wogrim]

Recovery Stuff / Gimping:

Falcon's up-B grabs in front of him, so if you manage to get straight above him you're pretty safe to gimp him.

Ike's up-B requires him to be really close (horizontally) to the stage, so a simple walkoff knee (before he gets in range) really messes him up. Falcon's up-B also beats the super armor horribly since it's a grab, so you're even more vulnerable than usual.

Jabs:

Jabs will clank until Falcon's jab is out of range, at which point he loses.

In the Air:

Falcon's UAir is fast and will juggle Ike all over the place until he's out of range or airdodges. Falcon will try to stay close to Ike so that Ike can't DI just out of range & retaliate, so Ike will usually have to airdodge. Knowing this, Falcons may try to bait airdodges (or any aerials that you might use to try to beat UAir).

I'm sure you guys know how to (try to) space Ike's aerials.

On the Ground:

This ends up boiling down to mindgames. Ike should avoid using tilts and smashes unless he's fairly certain he's got it mindgamed right. His autocancelled aerials (read: NAir, BAir) are his only good spacing moves, but with Falcon's speed you can't really force him to stay at the range you want him. If you get a Falcon who blindly charges in (especially with aerial approaches, since it's easy to determine where he's going to land and space accordingly), retreating aerials will **** for a while, but it eventually becomes a shield-jab/grab game, with some aerials/smashes thrown in.

Summary:

Ike wins on jabs.

Falcon wins on movement speed (which helps with mindgames, juggling, and spacing).

Ike has more range and kill power overall, but those moves are generally very unsafe so he's mostly restricted to faster, weaker moves, making it pretty even on both of those. Staying just outside of Ike's jab range always feels like the best place for me.

Mostly comes down to who wins the ground fight (mindgames), taking it to a juggling/platform game or a gimping attempt.

 

[Palpi]

The ike has to bait falcon to approach, rar retreating fairs, or normal retreating fairs. Falcons approach options are extremely limited and have low priority.

 

[Player-3]

50:50 if i dare say so

at least until falcon gets fsmashed at 50% due to mindgames

;-;

 

[Nidtendofreak]

50:50 if i dare say so

at least until falcon gets fsmashed at 50% due to mindgames

;-;

I've played this match several times and I know it's simply impossible for it to be neutral. Lowest advantage Ike has in this match-up is 6-4. It's maybe neutral at Norfair. Thats about it.

 

[LuLLo]

The thing is, people tend to say ''what beats what''...Yes, Ike beats everything Falcon has, even his jabs, but you have to remember that Ike is about lag, and Falcon is (sorta less) about punishing lag, since he has no valid approaches. Falcon can really hurt Ike with his speed and power, so it's a matchup not te be taken lightly. I main both and I'd say that it's 60-40/55-45 for Ike.

 

[Kimchi]

So, is there any other input Falcons and Ikes want to put about the matchup? One thing that hasn't been clarified I think are counterpicks that benefit both characters. After that's been stated, I think the Ike boards are ready to move on.

 

[§leepy God]

♫ I'll agree with 6-4 Ike or 5.5-4.5 Ike. Why did they have to make Captain Falcon's sweet spots small? D: ☼

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Strike Norfair, go to Pirate Ship. >_> Both characters like platforms.

 

[t3h n00b]

Strike Norfair, go to Pirate Ship. >_> Both characters like platforms.

I definitely agree, but watch out for Raptor Boost in the water, it has practically no risk and is a decent spike.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I definitely agree, but watch out for Raptor Boost in the water, it has practically no risk and is a decent spike.

I actually tried raptor boosting last time I played at Pirate Ship, it didn't seem to water spike. O_o I tried several times and had it connect several times but it didn't appear to send the opponent downwards. Maybe I just messed up everytime. Somehow. >_>

 

[t3h n00b]

I just tested, it does spike in the water, but it has to be the aerial version. So if you try to do it from the ship, you have to jump first. And it's one of the weaker spikes, but it should at least give you time to try again if it doesn't send your opponent to the blastline.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I was doing it from jumping out of the water -> Raptor Boost. I must of been somehow screwing it up. Either that, or they were at such low % I didn't notice them move down in the water. >_> <_<