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Ike: A *Temporary* Detailed Matchup Guide: #37 - Ike(Fsmash)

Nidtendofreak

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We're all too lazy. I typed up a thing in the Samus board's first run of the match-up, I'm not making another one.

We need to go through the numbers for each match-up now I guess, and attempt to agree as a board as to what they are. Some will be hard though, for example the Samus match-up. How many good Samus mains are there out there? 3? And they are all amazingly good because quite simply, they have to be in order to place. That's going to mess up the numbers simply because as far as I know, our best Ikes haven't played against any of them, outside of Ryko, so most of the Ikes are going to be outclassed in skill. (Inui doesn't count, he only uses Ike in low tiers, so he doesn't have nearly as much experience)
 

Kimchi

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We're all too lazy. I typed up a thing in the Samus board's first run of the match-up, I'm not making another one.

We need to go through the numbers for each match-up now I guess, and attempt to agree as a board as to what they are. Some will be hard though, for example the Samus match-up. How many good Samus mains are there out there? 3? And they are all amazingly good because quite simply, they have to be in order to place. That's going to mess up the numbers simply because as far as I know, our best Ikes haven't played against any of them, outside of Ryko, so most of the Ikes are going to be outclassed in skill. (Inui doesn't count, he only uses Ike in low tiers, so he doesn't have nearly as much experience)
Wi-Fi has little value, but it does contribute to matchup experience quite a bit so I'm going to say right now, I've played this good Samus a lot of matches and basically what I found the hardest in fighting Samus is her Zair. Completely shuts out Ike's approach options if used timely, so an aerial approach against a good Samus is very difficult. Ike's better off with a ground approach, because not only can Samus shut out Ike's aerial approach completely, but she can screw attack OOS to rack up damage in an extremely annoying fashion if you try to aerial her while she's shielding. Her projectiles, IMO, don't serve her as much as her Zair besides the fact that they allow her to recover to the stage almost 100% of the time. Samus's walkoff Dair is something to watchout for as well with its pretty enormous hitbox as well as much of Samus's aerial game.
On a side note: Ryko, have you played Rhyme's Samus before?
 

metroid1117

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I fought a pretty good Samus at my last tourney; the thing was, when he spammed projectiles and ZAir, I had a VERY hard time approaching. Quite literally, I only won because he let up his projectile work. Xyro is pretty much right, if they use their projectiles properly Ike is quite screwed. Samus is also difficult for Ike to edgeguard; the Screw Attack is very quick and she also has the option of using her ZAir. The only thing we have going in the match-up is raw killing power; Samus can only gimp, she cannot kill at the same %s that we can. If the Samus plays properly, I think that it's in her favor.
 

Ussi

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Projectiles aren't too hard to get through.. She's floaty, so Zair is hard to aim low. I see them aim for heads usually, so just duck ;P And if you duck and nothing comes, then shield the zair that's gonna come.

Her missiles aren't lasers.
 

Nidtendofreak

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I’ve tested the jab -> Bair combo on all the cast with a human controlling the target, and it seems that it is a true combo on Zelda and Samus only. Both can escape if they DI the jab correctly, but that’s very improbable to happen. Someone could confirm that?
I don't think we ever said it was a true combo on anyone, just very likely to connect if they don't see it coming.
 

metroid1117

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I don't think we ever said it was a true combo on anyone, just very likely to connect if they don't see it coming.
You're right; unfortunately, it is not a true combo. According to this thread, the most we'll ever get out of the 1st jab in terms of frame advantage is 16 frames if they take no action, but only 7 if they take an action in the air. Assuming they'll take an action in the air, we'll be at a disadvantage of 7 frames (8 frames to get airborne, 7 frames for the BAir to come out; since you can BAir first frame you're airborne, it only takes 14 frames for it to come out as soon as possible, not 15). Even if they do take no action and hit the ground, the landing animation for most characters make them duck under the BAir (like Marth).
 

SaltyKracka

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Honestly, if you see that your friendly neighborhood Spamus is zairing like all get out in order to keep you from approaching, what I think the best thing to do is to just shorthop a quickdraw. It gets you closer, it can go over things, it can go under things, and if you time it right, you'll slide right into jab range.
 

actmasterkings

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hard block her crap everytime..thats what i do..i think ikes have to use more mindgame as and lure the samus to youbecause samuses take big risks with her moves..trust me i play with both..and keep her close to you because ikes melee combat is excellent and samus s is not...
 

Kimchi

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:ike: 40 vs :samus: 60
The battle of the low tiers! While one might assume that Ike vs Samus is easily in Ike's favor because Samus has no killing potential, that is clearly not the case for this matchup. Let's discuss the matchup.

Samus is one of the floatiest characters in Brawl. She jumps pretty high and her landing back on the stage is pretty slow. She is so cool, because she wears space armor (*in awe of the armor). Anyway, what can Samus do? She can charge a gun like Megaman, shoot missiles (either slow or fast), drop a mini bomb, walkoff Dair using the normal controls without fastfalling (WHAT!?!?!? RYKO?), and oh, I think we forgot something: her ZAIR! Samus also has some great projectiles as well as great juggling potential with her Uair. Her Bair is pretty powerful and her Fair has some decent range. Ike on the other hand, has his powerful, ranged aerials and his great jab game. Ike vs Samus is a pretty patient matchup for both characters. For one thing, Samus can easily force Ike to approach with her annoying projectile game. While Ike is pretty much forced to approach against a Samus, approaching her is not that easy due to Samus's excellent range with her Zair (reaches across 1/4 or 3/8 of FD if I recall).

What Ike essentially has to do is time the approach so that he doesn't get bombarded with projectiles and avoid getting hit back by Samus's Zair. I recommend that an Ike goes a ground approach against Samus, because something I forgot to mention is that Samus can use her Screw attack out of shield if Ike hits her shield with aerials. When I say ground approach, I really do mean powershielding on the way instead of charging your way through her projectiles and racking up an easy 30-50% from missiles and charged shots galore. Once you're actually in and personal with Samus, then Ike gains the advantage. Samus's ground game is pitiful and is nothing compared to Ike's. Although, you should still be wary of her Screw attack OOS as well as ridiculous grab range. What Samus essentially has over Ike though are her aerial's juggling abilities such as her Uair and her Fair. Watch out for her Dair -> Screw Attack. Offstage wise, the best thing I would advise for an Ike player is to simply at best, try to edgehog a Samus. Samus can recover notoriously low as well as stall her recovery with her Down special (the mini bomb). Samus also has her Zair to recover with so at best, edgehog. Don't even try to spike her or intercept her, because she can easily Zair edgehog your Aether and her Dair is better than yours.
Stagewise, the most obvious neutral to ban would be FD because of its flatness and her excellent projectile game here. I also highly recommend that Ikes don't go to Battlefield against a Samus, because Samus's Zair works well through platforms and her Screw attack can be abused on this stage due to the platforms hindering Ike's aerial game. A neutral I would recommend would probably be Yoshi's Island, because Samus can't apply her projectile game too much on Yoshi's Island and the huge platform in the middle doesn't help her too much for Screw Attack. Some CPs I would recommend are Rainbow Cruise if you're good at recovering there or Delfino Plaza, because throughout much of the stage shifts, she doesn't have a projectile game advantage, something that she needs over Ike. Just make sure to watch out for her spikes when the stage shifts to a water element, which is also a reason Ikes shouldn't really go to Pirate Ship against a good Samus.

Ike definitely will have to play patient against a Samus, knowing when to approach through the wall of projectiles and patiently building up damage against a Samus. She doesn't have much killing power, but Samus definitely can rack up damage pretty quickly with her projectile game, her fantastic juggling potential aerials, and her Zair. Offstage, just try to Aether as quickly as possible if you see a Samus trying to spike you to activate Super armor frames and nullifying her spike. But yeah, play patiently, and don't approach unless you're ready to. Make sure you can power shield well before you play a good Samus!
 

Rykoshet

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You're right; unfortunately, it is not a true combo. According to this thread, the most we'll ever get out of the 1st jab in terms of frame advantage is 16 frames if they take no action, but only 7 if they take an action in the air. Assuming they'll take an action in the air, we'll be at a disadvantage of 7 frames (8 frames to get airborne, 7 frames for the BAir to come out; since you can BAir first frame you're airborne, it only takes 14 frames for it to come out as soon as possible, not 15). Even if they do take no action and hit the ground, the landing animation for most characters make them duck under the BAir (like Marth).
If they DO jump to get out of the air it's honestly more likely that they will be hit.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Why is that Ike has a 60 : 40 disadvantage against Samus?
>_>

Er, read the whooping page and a half of short discussion on it?

And RC would be a terrible CP against Samus. Zair would **** us there. It would steal our DJ, mess up our spacing, ect.
 

Kimchi

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>_>

Er, read the whooping page and a half of short discussion on it?

And RC would be a terrible CP against Samus. Zair would **** us there. It would steal our DJ, mess up our spacing, ect.
But RC completely makes Samus's projectile game virtually useless. Ike also has 3 chances to infinite her there and at the top, since the ceiling is low, Ike's Utilt can kill Samus pretty easily. Samus can't vertically KO, like at all. Zair's not going to be much use in a moving a stage :/. Another thing is that Samus's recovery here is a bit more telegraphed than other stages so it's easier to gimp her.
 

Nidtendofreak

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Her projectile game useless? She'll know EXACTLY where we're headed, and those homing missiles are REALLY going to suck.

Or she could just get in front of us during the top part and spam missiles + zair, and we'll be forced to keep coming for more.

Ugh no, that would just be a nightmare.
 

Guilhe

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You mean those two comments the Samus mainers made in page 8?

Me in white

Not so consistantly anymore, lol. Anyway...

Samus 60:40 Ike (Experience is against Inui's and Rykochet's Ike.)

Samus has plenty of projectiles at her disposal. Uncharged B and homing missile move very slowly, so you will get punished if you attempt to destroy them with your sword. Every time. Shielding can get you grabbed, shield-poked, or out-zoned, so that's not a great idea either. Jumping sets you up for Uair/Fair, and you don't have any real follow-ups if you air-dodge the aerial. Going airborn gets you Zaired.

As Ussi commented afterwards, these aren't lasers, and slower projectiles means it’s easier to perfectshield, so that stuff on shield poking and out-zoning heavily depends on Ike's shield timing. SH air dodge lands with no lag, so we could bait a Zair and punish with jab upon landing (considering the Zair wasn’t optimally spaced) as we fall considerably faster than her. We could just duck under Samus projectiles once in a while like Ussi said.


Samus has the advantage off-stage. Miss the upB sweetspot by even a little and you'll get Zaired->Zaired->Dair/Nair almost every time. Air-dodging the second Zair will get you spiked assuming the Samus knows what to do (and isn't on WiFi). You'll need to be very consistant here. Homing missile will **** your overB so be careful.

I don’t know how Samus could punish a Aether “even a little” not sweetspoted with Zair, Dair or Nair, homing missile won’t **** our recovery if we don’t do something stupid as DI towards the stage when struck.


That said, Samus' tougher matchups are against characters who can rush her effectively, and Ike can do just that. He will have a very rough time getting inside of Samus' defenses, but it's not impossible. That's why I've listed the match as somewhat in Samus' favor.
As for Xyro’s comment, "lol 40:60 disadvantage for Ike" doesn’t qualify as an argument.

Anyway, Kimchi, you should specify at your write-up why you considered the match advantageous for Samus.

Can we counter Screw Attack?
 

Atria

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Can we counter Screw Attack?
I don't think it's possible to counter screw attack OoS. Like both Bowser's and Marth's ^B, it possesses invincibility frames on start up so hitting her out of it would be virtually impossible IMO. Although, since most people like using their ^B's OoS, (Invincible ones. From my experience anyway.) I think it may be possible to bait them to do it, then punish them while they're vulnerable. I've done this to both Marth and Bowser players. (Haven't really played many Samus players, but I don't see how it should be different.) Also, I don't think Samus players would be willing to shield grab as the grab is laggy if it misses so it might work.

Also, regarding the Falcon match up, you might want to add in the first paragraph that his priority is bad compared to Ike's which makes it even harder for him to approach Ike.
 

san.

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I always thought we could just QCDI out of screw attack with enough time to attack.. Maybe I'm wrong?
 

Guilhe

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I was talking about countering the screw attack while she’s recovering, just so we keep he away from the ledge. It was a bad idea anyway.
 

Ussi

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Rainbw cruise is just an awesome stage :D my favorite stage to play with Ike

On a serious note, we're on Ike now soo..

Probably the easily character to use our own counter on since we should know Ike and his actions like the back of our hand instinctively + the pre lag on Ike's moves naturally.

Nair beats fair upclose, fair bests nair ranged. Bair wins if it can be used. Really don't know which wins, uair or dair.

Fair will always be avalible to gimp aether. Fsmash/ftilt work at times. Bair works with timing. Dair is always there from above. Someone should just uair Ike for lulz.

This match up hard, we should counter pick.
 

Kimchi

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I just played a lot of dittos with san today and what I highly recommend is a moderate air approach but mainly a ground. The reason for this is because empty short hopping against another Ike is a serious risk, because the Ike can simply pivot jab and rack up an easy 15-20% with jab cancels. Speaking of jab cancels, you're going to have to know how to SDI out of your own character's stupidly good jab cancel. The only way you can SDI out of jab cancels is up and to do this, you're going to have to wiggle your control stick up if you have tap jump on, wiggle as in move your control stick up and keeping it up there, turn it from left to right continuously until you get out. Empty hop at your own risk, but don't throw aerials out stupidly either. If both Ikes are good, it'll turn into a spacing game, as was the case between san and me. Uair does great against Ike, because he falls so slow and the hitbox for Uair is pretty big so air dodging too early won't help either.

Here's san's take on the matchup
san said:
Concerning Ike dittos: ground approaches remain the safest bet in this matchup, although most of the game would be spacing aerials. Ike can't afford to let the other one get inside, and vise versa, yet they want to find an opening in the opponent so they can get a way inside. Usually, this will be done by a dash shield against an aerial poorly spaced. shielding out of jab is essential, and learning tendencies of ikes to get into the range of your fair and out of his is also essential. I also had success with angled up ftilt, but I didn't use that in dittos for a while, so...

Really, Ike will get most of his kills through gimps. one ftilt or bair and you're already offstage. Ike can gimp each other really well. It's easiest to either fair or bair the opponent's aether. Since the opponent has a somewhat limited control over his aether, I find it easer to hit with bair so I can be prepared to hit no matter which way the Ike tries to position his aether for recovery. Fair is a lot easier on less skilled opponents, however.
Here's Guilhe's take on the matchup.
Guilhe said:
Advantage for Ike then! He also does one heck of a good job gimping himself, long and disjointed hitboxes and Dtilt for punishing but the closest Aether at the ledge.
 
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