Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Mmac]

Actually I don't think Battlefield would work as well as you like. Ike will be in major trouble if he gets stuck on a platform.

 

[HeroMystic]

I agree... U-air is a *****...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

is it me or did everyone after marth just get deleted?

edit: hero we just wait for writers block moments but since we're about half way on the match ups it wouldn't be to bad if we took this moment to discuss the earlier numbers which kind of seems to stick to the original plan a bit just doing it at the half way point. I feel redundant half way point half way.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Actually I don't think Battlefield would work as well as you like. Ike will be in major trouble if he gets stuck on a platform.

As will Yoshi. Platfroms suck for everyone, dude.

 

[HeroMystic]

^Salty, U-air is Yoshi's main kill move.

is it me or did everyone after marth just get deleted?

It's not just you...

 

[Hoser]

is it me or did everyone after marth just get deleted?

It's looking like that to me

Edit: Now it goes down to Toon Link O.o

 

[YagamiLight]

1. Nair doesn't always lead to other moves. I know grabs can wif after them and with good DI and SDI it maybe possible to avoid the jab.

2. I will ask but I see no reason to doubt it.

3. no Ike is not safe once he gets aether in. Sorry but this just makes you sound very incompetent. Ike is very vulnerable from the back and with the jumping king he is pretty much open all the time. This is why I said the reverse aether if you get past MK's edge guarding. This is not safe either how ever because MK can just shuttle loop trough it. Getting Ike off the stage isn't hard please don't act like it is. MK has no problem piling up damage and no problem hitting with his fast strong smash attacks.

4. Jab is the only move fast enough to get MK out of his range since he has many many many moves that come out under 10 frames. Jab doesn't reach MKs space. Seriously with cold hard facts Ike has nothing to get MK out once he is in. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185726&highlight=frame

5. MK does not loose chase potential in the water in fact his dair becomes godly. dair sends you down and with MK's multiple jumps he can just hit you into the water jump hit you back in and keep doing this little by little till the blast zone. This is by no means a bad stage for MK and he does not fall behind in here.

6. It takes 4 frames to drop the shield and 0 if you PS. After this 1/4th of a second is long enough for MK to start up his tornado and at this distance Ike has nothing to protect him self against tornado except the shield. If the tornado hits at 0 it can combo into another one meaning you've just taken about 40%. Fine you can counter the smash attack if you aren't human and don't add the 6 frame reaction time at tournament level play. It doesn't matter if Ike out ranges MK's strong attacks because MK won't be use them out side of MK's range. If MK is inside Ike's Fair range he is in position to use any of these attacks and Ike can do nothing but shield. His up B is 1 frame slower than Ike's jab and it out ranges it tell me how to punish this when he is in a position to use it.

7. Ike doesn't have giant advantages they really are mere tokens.

DDD: yes he can grab spaced Fairs and Ftilts. No one kills heavies horizontally thats how you survive over 200%. DDD has a much better recovery than Ike and he has a very easy way of gimping Ike's Ftilt and incase your brain dies momentarily waddle Ds for QD. He Also has a WoP on Ike to get low percent kills.

1) Nair won't always do the job, but when it works it's great. Grabs can whiff, yes, but they generally won't. Add to that the new Air Release to DA to send MK quite a bit away from you, so you're back to square 1, except now Meta Knight has more damage. And as for SDIing jabs, it's only really possible out of a grab release. The timing is just practically impossible in normal combat.

3) I guess that did make me look a bit incompetent. No, he's not instantly safe. Reverse Aether and Aether regular as well as recovering low all have their drawback, none of those are instant "I used Aether I'm back on, YES!". They are harder to block than your standard recovery move, so Ike has an increased chance of making it back on, at any rate. If he's high above the stagish then QD might actually work as well. It's not like Ike is dead the moment he's off the stage. And I agree that it's not too hard for MK to get a character off the stage, but you make it sound like he does it to a spacer and a heavy like Ike effortlessly.

4) Yeah, I've seen the topic, good stuff. I'm not denying that MK is ridiculously fast, who is? The point is, however, that the jab is good enough for what Ike wants to do, inflict damage and reset the positions. Meta Knight can't always optimize his position, remember that.

5) The stage is much better for Ike that it is for MK, however. Ike has several things he can do out of the water and each of those can result in major pain for Meta Knight.

6) Ike angles the shield upward towards the tornado, the tornado ends, Ike can act. Problem solved. The tornado severely depletes after the first use, so the major damage danger is gone. As for the up B, if he uses it, you shield it, then he is on a very predictable path with only a glide attack stopping him from being punished, and even that won't always help.

7) Range? Power? Priority? If Ike had only one of those on MK I wouldn't be arguing here. But he can consistently utilize his options, and if the best range and power in the game aren't worth anything here then we're looking at the match the wrong way.


D3: I checked, Ftilt and Fair aren't shieldgrabbable. He can drop the shield and attempt a dashgrab, but this can lead to Dedede being jabbed. Most characters don't kill heavies off the sides. Note that this is Ike we are talking about, not Sheik or Toon Link. You can expect to kill Dedede off the side easily enough. And as for the recovery, Ike is probably the best character to choose to punish King Dedede's recovery, when you think about it. Waddle Dees kill QD if you're brain dead enough to use Quick Draw when he can easily punish it and gimp it, yes. If you recover low, I believe you can avoid Ftilt, but even if you can't, take the hit, DI upwards and QD to the ledge. Simple.

Edit: Haha, it randomly deleted most of the topic. If I hadn't backed it up recently, I would be truly pissed. I'll have to reinsert Luigi, Ike and the two pictures later, sadly. That deletion was kind of gay.

 

[HeroMystic]

Glad to see you backed up most of the stuff.

By the way, I think another topic for match-up ratios is needed. As much as I love to talk about numbers (not really), I think it would hinder this thread if we keep going back and forth without consistency. That way we don't fill up this thread with unrelated nonsense of other characters and we don't have to wait for "Writer's Block" moments.

In other news, Ike is a good counterpick against bad Marios.

 

[Naucitos]

As will Yoshi. Platfroms suck for everyone, dude.

Fun fact: Yoshi LOVES platforms.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) Nair won't always do the job, but when it works it's great. Grabs can whiff, yes, but they generally won't. Add to that the new Air Release to DA to send MK quite a bit away from you, so you're back to square 1, except now Meta Knight has more damage. And as for SDIing jabs, it's only really possible out of a grab release. The timing is just practically impossible in normal combat.

3) I guess that did make me look a bit incompetent. No, he's not instantly safe. Reverse Aether and Aether regular as well as recovering low all have their drawback, none of those are instant "I used Aether I'm back on, YES!". They are harder to block than your standard recovery move, so Ike has an increased chance of making it back on, at any rate. If he's high above the stagish then QD might actually work as well. It's not like Ike is dead the moment he's off the stage. And I agree that it's not too hard for MK to get a character off the stage, but you make it sound like he does it to a spacer and a heavy like Ike effortlessly.

4) Yeah, I've seen the topic, good stuff. I'm not denying that MK is ridiculously fast, who is? The point is, however, that the jab is good enough for what Ike wants to do, inflict damage and reset the positions. Meta Knight can't always optimize his position, remember that.

5) The stage is much better for Ike that it is for MK, however. Ike has several things he can do out of the water and each of those can result in major pain for Meta Knight.

6) Ike angles the shield upward towards the tornado, the tornado ends, Ike can act. Problem solved. The tornado severely depletes after the first use, so the major damage danger is gone. As for the up B, if he uses it, you shield it, then he is on a very predictable path with only a glide attack stopping him from being punished, and even that won't always help.

7) Range? Power? Priority? If Ike had only one of those on MK I wouldn't be arguing here. But he can consistently utilize his options, and if the best range and power in the game aren't worth anything here then we're looking at the match the wrong way.


D3: I checked, Ftilt and Fair aren't shieldgrabbable. He can drop the shield and attempt a dashgrab, but this can lead to Dedede being jabbed. Most characters don't kill heavies off the sides. Note that this is Ike we are talking about, not Sheik or Toon Link. You can expect to kill Dedede off the side easily enough. And as for the recovery, Ike is probably the best character to choose to punish King Dedede's recovery, when you think about it. Waddle Dees kill QD if you're brain dead enough to use Quick Draw when he can easily punish it and gimp it, yes. If you recover low, I believe you can avoid Ftilt, but even if you can't, take the hit, DI upwards and QD to the ledge. Simple.

Edit: Haha, it randomly deleted most of the topic. If I hadn't backed it up recently, I would be truly pissed. I'll have to reinsert Luigi, Ike and the two pictures later, sadly. That deletion was kind of gay.

1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.

3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=recovery Its not better than the standard its worse. Against MK you should never use QD he can reach you no matter how high you are and intercept it with shuttle loop. I don't think he does it effortlessly but he doesn't do it with out much trouble.

4. No the jab doesn't have enough reach. It is not good enough because at MK's ideal range it will just miss. MK can take control of his space much easier than Ike can. If your going to speak of Ike's spacing as being a huge advantage then you have to admit that MK can do the exact same thing.

5. The stage is not much better for Ike stop over estimating him. I could maybe agree on a slight advantage but like I said MK does not fall behind. What options does Ike have that MK doesn't in the water? Swim, jump, and aether? MK has more jumps giving him more time to and more opportunities at aerials. Also what you describe is essentially an air battle to get the opponent into the water. MK has the advantage over Ike at this position. Ike just has a much more effective punish but once again MK doesn't get punished easily.

6. Whats going to make MK stay there by the shield? He can just move right back to the position where Ike is to slow and has nothing to protect him from the second tornado. What happens now it pokes trough. shuttle loop can be canceled before the entire loop finishes it is not as punishable and as predictable as you make it sound.

7. I'm not saying they aren't worth anything I'm saying they aren't worth as much as you think. MK has priority MK has power MK has range. In fact I think MK has more power to speed ratio than Ike does which allow him to utilize it more than Ike. Speed also allows him to use his spacing much better.

DDD: the dash grab would result in Ike being grabbed not DDD being jabbed and if not he could do a sliding shield grab. You can't expect to kill anyone vertically easily ever with DI. Ike is only good at punishing up B and if canceled right Ike doesn't have time to hit with a smash attack. If your recovering that low then DDD can just jump off and Bair. Since when is recovering with Ike simple? think before you say these things man your just making it sound like you don't know Ike.

edit: yoshi loves being on platforms? cause Ike loves them to if hes under neath your open to so many moves including Fsmash.

hero why would you need counter picks against bad players?

 

[YagamiLight]

Glad to see you backed up most of the stuff.

By the way, I think another topic for match-up ratios is needed. As much as I love to talk about numbers (not really), I think it would hinder this thread if we keep going back and forth without consistency. That way we don't fill up this thread with unrelated nonsense of other characters and we don't have to wait for "Writer's Block" moments.

In other news, Ike is a good counterpick against bad Marios.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203904

Made just for you.

Now everyone is going to be pecking at me, so I expect back-up.

Edit: I am going to post a reply to AB tomorrow, as I must be going to sleep.

 

[Kinzer]

On topic? We're the Ike boards, we're never on topic.

Come to the Sonic boards and then tell me how sophisticated the Ikenians are. XD

Edit: I'm gonig to use this post to respond to some people, since I was too lazzy to read the unread posts and multi-quote then.

Light: Make sure you get a picture of Ike with his friends somewhere in there, I found that funny when you said there were lots of friends Ike could proect XD. Also what caused the thing to get deleted in the first place?

Hero: Did I miss something back at the Marty-O boards?

 

[M@v]

Yoshi's lack of ranged moves doesnt help him much vs ike's huge sword. Also, yoshi isnt a speed demon either. I think yoshis best thing is that its hard to edgeguard him, thanks to his super armor frames on the jump. This is in ike's favor though. The main problem I see for ike is a yoshi that is good at egg tossing could mess up ikes recovery.

 

[HeroMystic]

Hero: Did I miss something back at the Marty-O boards?

No, just personal experience from last night. I was beaten by a rather subpar Mario a few hours ago (I SUCK at dittos, whether it be Mario or Ike. Just way too weird and boring for me.), then I switched to Ike, spaced the hell out of him, and kindly 2-stocked (he got a lucky cape) him in under 2 minutes.

 

[Naucitos]

Yoshi's lack of ranged moves doesnt help him much vs ike's huge sword. Also, yoshi isnt a speed demon either. I think yoshis best thing is that its hard to edgeguard him, thanks to his super armor frames on the jump. This is in ike's favor though. The main problem I see for ike is a yoshi that is good at egg tossing could mess up ikes recovery.

Yoshi has decent range, not to mention a PROJECTILE, which is the opposite of a lack of ranged moves. His best attributes in this matchup are probably comboing and camping. How the HELL can yoshi's super armor be in ikes favor? Good eggs are a problem for more than recovery

 

[Kinzer]

Well yeah, we all know it's neutral, maybe slightly in Ike's favor...or in Yoshi's...but moreso Ikes...but even then it's still neutral.

Yoshi may have a projectile, but that won't stop Ike from just spacing and approaching with Ragnell and whatnot, especially since we don't have to jump to avoid the Egg, just shield or whatever.

And we all know a good Yoshi won't be getting gimped a lot if ever. Not to mention that Yoshi has more speed than Ike does. So normally Ike is going to have to outright kill Yoshi.

And I think what makes this into Ike's advantage is the fact that Yoshi would seem to have trouble killing a heavyweight like Ike, and Ike will be killing Yoshi a little bit to a lot faster.

But that's my opinion, and I think they have already been addressed.

 

[Tidycats29]

You can egg bomb ike while yoshi recovers so it's really easy to recover against ike
ike smashes are easy to counter just because of slow speed in them

a great ike users does killing with tilts and and grabs most of the time
renegade has been successful because of that IMO

yoshi has a proyectile and can CG ike
air game obviously in yoshi's favor
ground game can go either way
though yoshi can get out of ike's infinite jab combo if you spot dodge properly or sometimes a lucky jab

i see this 55:45 or possibly 6:4 for yoshi
just because as someone said
it is a bit difficult killing ike because he is heavy

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Hold the phone, im aware Ikes believe they can space to reduce any lag issues.
However if your spacing, with Ike, and doing aerials, like F-air, your pretty suspectible to eggs.
Since well, if you AD instead of your attack you land right into yoshi, where your disjointed then means crap because he's right on you and can do virtually anything to you. Your Jab won't make much difference either when yoshi's jab will also come out. Not that Ikes jab is ineffective.
If you get hit by the egg, well, that just messed up the spacing and theres this odd little hitstun think after being hit by an egg so that yoshi can recover from the egg wind up and attempt to get into the proper space so that disjointed attacks become less worry some.
The power of short hop Air Dodges compels you!
Yoshi can't be shield poked and Ike isn't breaking Yoshi's shield with 1 attack.
Yoshi can stay in shield for 1 attack, and he'll slide back and is fine.
If he perfect shields it, then well, he can drop the shield most likely, or just spot dodge the next move.
It's not like he has to worry about being shield poked.
Just Shield pressured, and I don't remember Ike being great at that. I remember him hitting it hard....but not pressure as in Doomed if you do Doomed if you don't (peach's D-air),


Think is Yoshi doesn't need to straight Kill Ike.

Through use of B-airs, utilts,ftilts, dtilts and jabs along with grabs and egg tosses. Yoshi will likely get Ike to percentages higher than Ike can get Yoshi.
Simply Ike needs less hits to kill yoshi though, and unlike Ganondorf he can get those hits.
However, N-air won't have too much issues taking out Ike anyways, as after a N-air at a good percentage, Ikes quite off the stage, then he's DI'ing back, in which case just egg the dude, and then go in for a gimp. At the positions off the stage, unless the yoshi is at a really high percentage, he won't die even if Ike hits him back.
I am a ****** though, so take it with a grain of salt.
I don't think it's particularly in Ikes advantage, simply because Yoshi can take out some of Ike's approaches with an egg.
By that I mean F-air.
SH AD's would still work for ike, but they work for Yoshi too.
Ikes attacks...except for B-air and jab, have enough wind up, that shielding them isn't hard. Air dodging is a different story for some reason, and maybe thats just me, because well >.> I eat N-airs in the air if I'm below ike.


Also someone said Yoshi is highly comfortable in the air, it's where he wants to be.

It is my believe, that Yoshi's trouble spot in the air ,is right below him.
When he wants to D-air he comes at an angle and not straight above >.>

Any area other than directly under him is good for yoshi relatively.

 

[Naucitos]

You can egg bomb ike while yoshi recovers so it's really easy to recover against ike
ike smashes are easy to counter just because of slow speed in them

Yoshi bomb is suicide in this matchup, and will just get Uaired, unless you mean egg toss? And ikes smashes are still devastating


a great ike users does killing with tilts and and grabs most of the time
renegade has been successful because of that IMO

yoshi has a proyectile and can CG ike
air game obviously in yoshi's favor
ground game can go either way
though yoshi can get out of ike's infinite jab combo if you spot dodge properly or sometimes a lucky jab

CG isn't THAT useful, and air game isn't obviously in yoshi's favor when ikes fair outranges everything. What infinite jab combo are you talking about?

i see this 55:45 or possibly 6:4 for yoshi
just because as someone said
it is a bit difficult killing ike because he is heavy

This is definately nowhere better than neutral or 45:55: yoshi, 6:4 is definately out, 45:55 our favor is pushing it

 

[Ussi]

-_- people need to stop doubting Ike's air game. 4th longest reach in the air is not something bad you know... (Samus, Link, ZZS beat Ike in air range)

Off topic:

What makes me more mad is when people dismiss Ike since he's "too slow" They need to learn how Ike is played. IMO Ike is only predicting and punishing. Meaning you need some really good mind games to be successful with Ike.

on topic now:

I am in love with Ike's air game. 4th longest reach and a good aerial shield (nair). Heck nair and uair eat air dodges. So if Yoshi tries to AD pass Ike, it won't work if he does nair. Aerial Mobility yes, Yoshi has the best of it. But Ike has RANGE to make up for aerial mobility.

 

[HeroMystic]

edit: yoshi loves being on platforms? cause Ike loves them to if hes under neath your open to so many moves including Fsmash.

hero why would you need counter picks against bad players?

Not necessarily bad players, just players that play the same character as me. I suck at dittos, and Mario players that aren't from the boards thinks that Ike is easy pickings.

So last night I just taught him a lesson since I suck at dittos. I was practically spacing and zoning at the same time with F-air because he kept trying to charge into it. Then I throw him, show him that Mario sucks when he hanging on the ledge (He rolled into an F-smash, then he tried to ledge-hop fireball, but ate an F-Smash anyways), and kill quick.

If he didn't get off a lucky cape, I would've 3-stocked him, but it was under 2 minutes anyways.

On-topic: Not having platforms would be more of a disadvantage for Yoshi than it would for Ike.

 

[Mmac]

Direct DownB = Death

Rising Hit DownB = Death to Ike

 

[SaltyKracka]

Direct DownB = Death

Rising Hit DownB = Death to Ike

I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?

 

[Kirk]

If used on the ground and are right next to your opponent, the Yoshi Bomb(Down-B) will pop your opponent upwards, right in place for the kill hit of the move coming down. It's also much stronger if used on the ground as opposed to starting it in the air.

Though I'm unsure if there is time to Air Dodge inbetween or DI out of the kill hit.

 

[Ussi]

I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?

he's just stating when it hits. If he misses, he's eating a ftilt though.

 

[Tidycats29]

This is definately nowhere better than neutral or 45:55: yoshi, 6:4 is definately out, 45:55 our favor is pushing it

yes i meant egg toss

and yoshi's fome HA!(down B) on ground is much much more dangerous than on air
and you cannot air dodge it
and if you miss it doesn't really mean death for yoshi
the stars protect him sometimes

also ikes range in air is good like his fair
but that can be stopped by an egg

 

[Mmac]

I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?

The Rising Hit is 4 Framed and not laggy at all.

 

[nhdogq03]

Many of these are very few. Amazing strategy guidelike thing.

Some of the worse matchups for my Ike(Ike overall):
Sheik, Meta,ZSS,ROB.AMIright?
Also, Ike has some amazing aerials.
So amazing job, and I can't wait to brawl you sometime.

 

[comboking]

If your new to the Ike boards welcome please read this:http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204025
Sorry for the post not matching what the thread is talking about but we have to educate new Ike users! U can call me CK BTW.

Thanks, CK

 

[Sharky]

If used on the ground and are right next to your opponent, the Yoshi Bomb(Down-B) will pop your opponent upwards, right in place for the kill hit of the move coming down. It's also much stronger if used on the ground as opposed to starting it in the air.

Though I'm unsure if there is time to Air Dodge inbetween or DI out of the kill hit.

I'm pretty sure you can't airdodge it (wanna frame test that, kirk?), though you can SDI out if you're close to the far end of the hitbox. Granted, there isn't much of a window to see the move coming to SDI in the first place, so it's luck, really.

edit:...but we shall see over the weekend. XD

 

[SaltyKracka]

The Rising Hit is 4 Framed and not laggy at all.

It's also asking to get jabbed. Seriously, it has NO range.

 

[Sharky]

So if you're a frame or two off then you're hit. Is your accuracy within a frame every single time? Didn't think so. =P So yeah, it's still a good option, and definitely has at least as much range as a jab.

 

[Jiggy]

Yea I've always had bad experiences with yoshi's butt meeting Ike's sword

 

[Naucitos]

Ground pound comes out faster than Ike's jab, and range isn't something we need to worry about on it, you talk like we're using it as an approach, instead of a punisher

 

[Sharky]

-_- people need to stop doubting Ike's air game. 4th longest reach in the air is not something bad you know... (Samus, Link, ZZS beat Ike in air range)

Off topic:

What makes me more mad is when people dismiss Ike since he's "too slow" They need to learn how Ike is played. IMO Ike is only predicting and punishing. Meaning you need some really good mind games to be successful with Ike.

on topic now:

I am in love with Ike's air game. 4th longest reach and a good aerial shield (nair). Heck nair and uair eat air dodges. So if Yoshi tries to AD pass Ike, it won't work if he does nair. Aerial Mobility yes, Yoshi has the best of it. But Ike has RANGE to make up for aerial mobility.

Our air games are good in different ways. You've got reach, we've got speed (Yoshi has THE fastest horizontal air speed in the game, plus fast aerials other than fair). I just think speed is better. =)

 

[XACE-K]

If used on the ground and are right next to your opponent, the Yoshi Bomb(Down-B) will pop your opponent upwards, right in place for the kill hit of the move coming down. It's also much stronger if used on the ground as opposed to starting it in the air.

Though I'm unsure if there is time to Air Dodge inbetween or DI out of the kill hit.

Air dodge won't work but DI does depending on where you are.

Our air games are good in different ways. You've got reach, we've got speed (Yoshi has THE fastest horizontal air speed in the game, plus fast aerials other than fair). I just think speed is better. =)

True. But with Ike, we'll use spacing to hit you while you'll need to try to get close and hit us.

 

[Naucitos]

The problem with spacing, is that if you try to fight us int he air, we don't need to. As soon as you leave the floor, you wont be able to punish us sliding back and throwing eggs at you, your air speed is too slow, and if you air dodge we can either throw another egg or ftilt, depending on how far you are. the main reason i'd be using bair is when you finish an attack or are close already

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.

3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=recovery Its not better than the standard its worse. Against MK you should never use QD he can reach you no matter how high you are and intercept it with shuttle loop. I don't think he does it effortlessly but he doesn't do it with out much trouble.

4. No the jab doesn't have enough reach. It is not good enough because at MK's ideal range it will just miss. MK can take control of his space much easier than Ike can. If your going to speak of Ike's spacing as being a huge advantage then you have to admit that MK can do the exact same thing.

5. The stage is not much better for Ike stop over estimating him. I could maybe agree on a slight advantage but like I said MK does not fall behind. What options does Ike have that MK doesn't in the water? Swim, jump, and aether? MK has more jumps giving him more time to and more opportunities at aerials. Also what you describe is essentially an air battle to get the opponent into the water. MK has the advantage over Ike at this position. Ike just has a much more effective punish but once again MK doesn't get punished easily.

6. Whats going to make MK stay there by the shield? He can just move right back to the position where Ike is to slow and has nothing to protect him from the second tornado. What happens now it pokes trough. shuttle loop can be canceled before the entire loop finishes it is not as punishable and as predictable as you make it sound.

7. I'm not saying they aren't worth anything I'm saying they aren't worth as much as you think. MK has priority MK has power MK has range. In fact I think MK has more power to speed ratio than Ike does which allow him to utilize it more than Ike. Speed also allows him to use his spacing much better.

DDD: the dash grab would result in Ike being grabbed not DDD being jabbed and if not he could do a sliding shield grab. You can't expect to kill anyone vertically easily ever with DI. Ike is only good at punishing up B and if canceled right Ike doesn't have time to hit with a smash attack. If your recovering that low then DDD can just jump off and Bair. Since when is recovering with Ike simple? think before you say these things man your just making it sound like you don't know Ike.

been 2 days I thought you said that you would continue when you woke up.

Also I just found out that MK has more priority than Ike isn't life awesome?

 

[YagamiLight]

Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot.

1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.

3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=recovery Its not better than the standard its worse. Against MK you should never use QD he can reach you no matter how high you are and intercept it with shuttle loop. I don't think he does it effortlessly but he doesn't do it with out much trouble.

4. No the jab doesn't have enough reach. It is not good enough because at MK's ideal range it will just miss. MK can take control of his space much easier than Ike can. If your going to speak of Ike's spacing as being a huge advantage then you have to admit that MK can do the exact same thing.

5. The stage is not much better for Ike stop over estimating him. I could maybe agree on a slight advantage but like I said MK does not fall behind. What options does Ike have that MK doesn't in the water? Swim, jump, and aether? MK has more jumps giving him more time to and more opportunities at aerials. Also what you describe is essentially an air battle to get the opponent into the water. MK has the advantage over Ike at this position. Ike just has a much more effective punish but once again MK doesn't get punished easily.

6. Whats going to make MK stay there by the shield? He can just move right back to the position where Ike is to slow and has nothing to protect him from the second tornado. What happens now it pokes trough. shuttle loop can be canceled before the entire loop finishes it is not as punishable and as predictable as you make it sound.

7. I'm not saying they aren't worth anything I'm saying they aren't worth as much as you think. MK has priority MK has power MK has range. In fact I think MK has more power to speed ratio than Ike does which allow him to utilize it more than Ike. Speed also allows him to use his spacing much better.

DDD: the dash grab would result in Ike being grabbed not DDD being jabbed and if not he could do a sliding shield grab. You can't expect to kill anyone vertically easily ever with DI. Ike is only good at punishing up B and if canceled right Ike doesn't have time to hit with a smash attack. If your recovering that low then DDD can just jump off and Bair. Since when is recovering with Ike simple? think before you say these things man your just making it sound like you don't know Ike.

1) It is much harder than you'd think to SDI out of a random jab. And I don't think how you could possibly say that Ike's jab isn't fast at all.

3) That list is visibly wrong, since we already established that Ike is better than Falco recovery wise a while back. I could point out more issues, but that's not important. You probably shouldn't Quick Draw versus Meta Knight unless you are lined up with the edge or if he is unable to punish it.

4) Let's look at it as there being three distinct spacing ranges. There is long range (Which I will define as Ike's Fair distance), Medium (Ike's Nair, Bair and most of MK's moves) and close range, namely Ike's jab and MK's jab (Which sucks). Out of these, Ike wins pretty heavily in long and short range, but loses out in mid range. Can we agree on that?

5) I'm really not overestimating him. Ike really does do very well on this stage. The main thing is that now Ike can do everything he can in the air, except his is not limited by his **** offstage combat capabilities and mediocre recovery. I'd define tht as very good.

6) There is some time as the tornado ends that Ike can just roll away or something before MK starts the second one/cools down. You also forget that the damage of the tornado goes from good to terrible after the first use. And yes, Shuttle Loop is not super punishable, but the path is generally predictable.

7) I understand that MK has good qualities almost all around, trust me. I am just saying that since Ike can edge him out, plus the fact that Ike isn't as slow as he looks on first glance, stops him from being *****. See Ganondorf, for example. He outpowers Meta Knight, but loses in everything else and is slower than Ike is and has worse recovery. That's an 80-20 match. Ike is just a super improved Ganondorf in this scenario.

D3: I said recovering with Ike is simple. It was late, my mistake. It's not. The thing still stands that Ike is really good at punishing the Up B and has two very usable spikes on Dedede.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot.



1) It is much harder than you'd think to SDI out of a random jab. And I don't think how you could possibly say that Ike's jab isn't fast at all.

3) That list is visibly wrong, since we already established that Ike is better than Falco recovery wise a while back. I could point out more issues, but that's not important. You probably shouldn't Quick Draw versus Meta Knight unless you are lined up with the edge or if he is unable to punish it.

4) Let's look at it as there being three distinct spacing ranges. There is long range (Which I will define as Ike's Fair distance), Medium (Ike's Nair, Bair and most of MK's moves) and close range, namely Ike's jab and MK's jab (Which sucks). Out of these, Ike wins pretty heavily in long and short range, but loses out in mid range. Can we agree on that?

5) I'm really not overestimating him. Ike really does do very well on this stage. The main thing is that now Ike can do everything he can in the air, except his is not limited by his **** offstage combat capabilities and mediocre recovery. I'd define tht as very good.

6) There is some time as the tornado ends that Ike can just roll away or something before MK starts the second one/cools down. You also forget that the damage of the tornado goes from good to terrible after the first use. And yes, Shuttle Loop is not super punishable, but the path is generally predictable.

7) I understand that MK has good qualities almost all around, trust me. I am just saying that since Ike can edge him out, plus the fact that Ike isn't as slow as he looks on first glance, stops him from being *****. See Ganondorf, for example. He outpowers Meta Knight, but loses in everything else and is slower than Ike is and has worse recovery. That's an 80-20 match. Ike is just a super improved Ganondorf in this scenario.

D3: I said recovering with Ike is simple. It was late, my mistake. It's not. The thing still stands that Ike is really good at punishing the Up B and has two very usable spikes on Dedede.

1. its not a random jab its a Nair follow up try again. the initial jab is fast the rest isn't.

3. Your the one who suggested using QD against MK better get a hold of what gives Ike an advantage over him and stop contradicting your self. Also go ahead and move Ike 1 spot up that still doesn't make him better than the standard and I would like you to point out those mistakes since that list was changed frequently with the input of others unlike your number thread.

4. no because MK wouldn't use jab at that range they would just tornado Dtilt or one of the other 10 moves faster than Ike's jab. MK can out speed and out space Ike in mid/close range by your definitions.

5. except that Ike's moves have slow start up besides his Bair. if you where to make a comparison in above the water combat it goes like this.

Both characters jump out of the water.
Mk fair > Ike fair
MK uair > ike Uair
MK Dair > Ike dair
MK Nair > Ike Nair
MK Bair < Ike bair
MK specials > Ike specials even up B.

When one character is in the water its the same thing except Mk's Dair = Ike Dair.

6. not sure about the time thing but even so MK can move faster than Ike can roll and this only means Ike is being pressured to retreat. Also If the tornado is shielded it doesn't degrade. In simple terms the shielded tornado is tornado 0.

If you can't do anything about shuttle loop it doesn't matter how predictable its path is. OMG MK is off the stage now hes coming back to the stage how predictable lets move him to bottom tier right now.

7. its not a super improved ganon all Ike has on MK now is better long range game and a higher power. Of course him having power doesn't mean he has the ability to kill faster than MK. And also your talking to me I know Ike isn't as slow as the lol just shield and spam people think but his speed is an issue that needs to be taken into account attack and movement wise.

DDD: Ok if the DDD is ******** then Ike can punish the up B worse than anyone else how ever we are assuming this is tournament level play and that the DDD knows how to control this. depending on the stage DDD can aim for platforms or other places Ike won't have time to charge his smashes lets go with FD as an example though. DDD is off stage and Ike is at the edge trying to edge guard him. All DDD has to do is use his up B in a way that it travels a huge horizontal distance. If Ike begins to chase him then all he has to do is cancel it at peak of the jump and change directions. This assures he doesn't get hit by a smash attack. Actually I don't think he could be hit by anything else than an Fair, Nair or dash attack at this point.

DDD how ever is much better at punishing Ike's recovery. Since Ike is either go down then up or go up then side ways all he has to do is either jump then Bair when Ike heads for the ledge stage spiking him or throw a waddle D.

DDD also has a much easier time to get Ike off the stage. Chain grab to the edge then Ftilt then jump and Bair.