Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[YagamiLight]

1. its not a random jab its a Nair follow up try again. the initial jab is fast the rest isn't.

3. Your the one who suggested using QD against MK better get a hold of what gives Ike an advantage over him and stop contradicting your self. Also go ahead and move Ike 1 spot up that still doesn't make him better than the standard and I would like you to point out those mistakes since that list was changed frequently with the input of others unlike your number thread.

4. no because MK wouldn't use jab at that range they would just tornado Dtilt or one of the other 10 moves faster than Ike's jab. MK can out speed and out space Ike in mid/close range by your definitions.

5. except that Ike's moves have slow start up besides his Bair. if you where to make a comparison in above the water combat it goes like this.

Both characters jump out of the water.
Mk fair > Ike fair
MK uair > ike Uair
MK Dair > Ike dair
MK Nair > Ike Nair
MK Bair < Ike bair
MK specials > Ike specials even up B.

When one character is in the water its the same thing except Mk's Dair = Ike Dair.

6. not sure about the time thing but even so MK can move faster than Ike can roll and this only means Ike is being pressured to retreat. Also If the tornado is shielded it doesn't degrade. In simple terms the shielded tornado is tornado 0.

If you can't do anything about shuttle loop it doesn't matter how predictable its path is. OMG MK is off the stage now hes coming back to the stage how predictable lets move him to bottom tier right now.

7. its not a super improved ganon all Ike has on MK now is better long range game and a higher power. Of course him having power doesn't mean he has the ability to kill faster than MK. And also your talking to me I know Ike isn't as slow as the lol just shield and spam people think but his speed is an issue that needs to be taken into account attack and movement wise.

DDD: Ok if the DDD is ******** then Ike can punish the up B worse than anyone else how ever we are assuming this is tournament level play and that the DDD knows how to control this. depending on the stage DDD can aim for platforms or other places Ike won't have time to charge his smashes lets go with FD as an example though. DDD is off stage and Ike is at the edge trying to edge guard him. All DDD has to do is use his up B in a way that it travels a huge horizontal distance. If Ike begins to chase him then all he has to do is cancel it at peak of the jump and change directions. This assures he doesn't get hit by a smash attack. Actually I don't think he could be hit by anything else than an Fair, Nair or dash attack at this point.

DDD how ever is much better at punishing Ike's recovery. Since Ike is either go down then up or go up then side ways all he has to do is either jump then Bair when Ike heads for the ledge stage spiking him or throw a waddle D.

DDD also has a much easier time to get Ike off the stage. Chain grab to the edge then Ftilt then jump and Bair.

1) I wasn't thinking of the Nair followup at the moment but if MK SDIs the initial hit, Ike can either combat walk, jab to grab, uptilt or whatever. I'm sure none of those are guaranteed (except maybe combat walk) but they exist. Plus I wasn't referring to jab2 and jab 3, those aren't fast.

3) Ike certainly has a better recovery than Wolf and Donkey Kong, mind you. I thought we said he was close to or equal to Marth recovery wise when we were doing his analysis? In any case it was two days so you'll have to forgive me for forgetting that I mentioned Quick Draw high up as a tactic. It still remains, yes it's punishable if MK catches up and shuttle loops, but by then you're probably on the stage.

4) Ignoring the fact that the combat probably isn't going to reach that level of closeness, Ike's jab is what, frame 3? If that's not fast enough to reset the combat back to long range, what is?

5) Yes, speedwise, Ike is losing in the water. Doesn't mean that he loses the water fight because of it. The main point of the water is to mostly prevent gimp kills (Which MK has) while still retaining spike kills (which Ike has). As a stage, it makes the fight better for Ike.

6) Ike is on the defensive for most of the match, so of course he'll retreat in that scenario. And okay, point accepted that the tornado doesn't degrade about shield. Slipped my mind.

7) First off, I'd like to see where MK has better priority than Ike. That said, Ike is killing faster on the stage, hard to debate this. Then there's range and whatnot, blah blah, we've all heard what Ike has several thousand times.

D3: Did you know that Quick Draw is actually a good idea to edgeguard Dedede's Up B? Stand at say the middle of FD. Dedede up Bs and is heading towards you. you're far enough so that he doesn't sit on you and can intercept him at any point, before he touches the ground even, forcing him to Up B again as he didn't regain the jumps. If he tries to sweetspot the ledge from off the stage QD rush to Dtilt spike works perfectly.

Yes, Dedede can mess with Ike too, nobody is denying that.

I don't see why we're debating Dedede anyways, it's not like I put him at 50-50 or anything.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) I wasn't thinking of the Nair followup at the moment but if MK SDIs the initial hit, Ike can either combat walk, jab to grab, uptilt or whatever. I'm sure none of those are guaranteed (except maybe combat walk) but they exist. Plus I wasn't referring to jab2 and jab 3, those aren't fast.

3) Ike certainly has a better recovery than Wolf and Donkey Kong, mind you. I thought we said he was close to or equal to Marth recovery wise when we were doing his analysis? In any case it was two days so you'll have to forgive me for forgetting that I mentioned Quick Draw high up as a tactic. It still remains, yes it's punishable if MK catches up and shuttle loops, but by then you're probably on the stage.

4) Ignoring the fact that the combat probably isn't going to reach that level of closeness, Ike's jab is what, frame 3? If that's not fast enough to reset the combat back to long range, what is?

5) Yes, speedwise, Ike is losing in the water. Doesn't mean that he loses the water fight because of it. The main point of the water is to mostly prevent gimp kills (Which MK has) while still retaining spike kills (which Ike has). As a stage, it makes the fight better for Ike.

6) Ike is on the defensive for most of the match, so of course he'll retreat in that scenario. And okay, point accepted that the tornado doesn't degrade about shield. Slipped my mind.

7) First off, I'd like to see where MK has better priority than Ike. That said, Ike is killing faster on the stage, hard to debate this. Then there's range and whatnot, blah blah, we've all heard what Ike has several thousand times.

D3: Did you know that Quick Draw is actually a good idea to edgeguard Dedede's Up B? Stand at say the middle of FD. Dedede up Bs and is heading towards you. you're far enough so that he doesn't sit on you and can intercept him at any point, before he touches the ground even, forcing him to Up B again as he didn't regain the jumps. If he tries to sweetspot the ledge from off the stage QD rush to Dtilt spike works perfectly.

Yes, Dedede can mess with Ike too, nobody is denying that.

I don't see why we're debating Dedede anyways, it's not like I put him at 50-50 or anything.

1. I don't think combat walk is guaranteed but what do I know I never use it. Of course until its proven it isn't considered one. If your SDIing jabs then you have to talk about the fastest follow up there is.

renaming 3 2. actually now DK and wolf are better probably falco's too I was just didn't feel like going into detail. We said they cover the same amount of range but he is not as good as marth. This list takes into acount how easy it is to gimp a character now how much distance they cover. Marth is floatier has his B and over B that don't leave him helpless to help him as well.

You said you where high up MK isn't slow so he can catch up really fast and you have only one way to go when you start using QD. It is a self invoked trap once you start charging your only option is let go or keep charging.

4. Its frame 4. Kirk got frame 3.235 when he did the 1/4th speed frame which he later ditched because of inconsistency. idk why he has it as frame 3. Its fast enough how ever Its not long enough and MK out prioritizes his jab and out speeds it with a few moves. This is part of the reason that MK has an advantage on Ike.

5. MK still retains gimp kills. Dair is a semi spike spending you down and horizontally. With this and his multi jump he can Dair you till the blast zone. Also since all the aerials loose in terms of speed it means Ike has no way of building up damage unless the MK messes up. While even if the Dair plan fails due to the king of red lions or w/e He can build up damage until all he has to do is shuttle loop you out into the blast zone.

6. Ike isn't retreating because he is playing defensively in this scenario its because its the only option he has.

7. everywhere go argue with him about it. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5783344&postcount=9452

It's not hard to debate this. Him killing lower is but not faster. MK builds up damage a lot faster than Ike. He also needs much smaller mistakes to land his kill moves while Ike needs large ones which MK has few of. MK has frame traps on Ike to set up kill moves Ike has none. Also with DI and aerials for recoveries MK won't die early. Just using aerials for recovery no DI he seems to go up 10% vertically and 5% horizontally. With DI AFR(is that what its called idk) count a lot more because the move time it takes for you to reach the blast zone the more time you have to gain control. They could potentially go up 40%

DDD: the stars around DDD protect him from QD. such a slow move will allow him to shield in time. Which is why QD rush to Dtilt wouldn't work and the ledge would still be a great way to not get hit by this. Not only that but DDD could actually reach you in the center of FD. Anyways even if all this worked you still aren't punishing him with a killing move like you originally said.

DDD can mess with Ike more than Ike can with DDD.

2 days ago we where talking about how you think DDD one of Ike's 3 worst match ups is 65-35. Then you said DDD doesn't have much on Ike that he doesn't have on DDD while I refuted.

my memory is very good, I don't mind if you forget but you should know that I won't.

 

[HeroMystic]

So I'm assuming everyone got bored of the debate thread?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

there both match up topics and I'm not really focusing on numbers here just that MK has the advantage.

edit: of course we're alternating between threads so yah lol.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. I don't think combat walk is guaranteed but what do I know I never use it. Of course until its proven it isn't considered one. If your SDIing jabs then you have to talk about the fastest follow up there is.

renaming 3 2. actually now DK and wolf are better probably falco's too I was just didn't feel like going into detail. We said they cover the same amount of range but he is not as good as marth. This list takes into acount how easy it is to gimp a character now how much distance they cover. Marth is floatier has his B and over B that don't leave him helpless to help him as well.

You said you where high up MK isn't slow so he can catch up really fast and you have only one way to go when you start using QD. It is a self invoked trap once you start charging your only option is let go or keep charging.

4. Its frame 4. Kirk got frame 3.235 when he did the 1/4th speed frame which he later ditched because of inconsistency. idk why he has it as frame 3. Its fast enough how ever Its not long enough and MK out prioritizes his jab and out speeds it with a few moves. This is part of the reason that MK has an advantage on Ike.

5. MK still retains gimp kills. Dair is a semi spike spending you down and horizontally. With this and his multi jump he can Dair you till the blast zone. Also since all the aerials loose in terms of speed it means Ike has no way of building up damage unless the MK messes up. While even if the Dair plan fails due to the king of red lions or w/e He can build up damage until all he has to do is shuttle loop you out into the blast zone.

6. Ike isn't retreating because he is playing defensively in this scenario its because its the only option he has.

7. everywhere go argue with him about it. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5783344&postcount=9452

It's not hard to debate this. Him killing lower is but not faster. MK builds up damage a lot faster than Ike. He also needs much smaller mistakes to land his kill moves while Ike needs large ones which MK has few of. MK has frame traps on Ike to set up kill moves Ike has none. Also with DI and aerials for recoveries MK won't die early. Just using aerials for recovery no DI he seems to go up 10% vertically and 5% horizontally. With DI AFR(is that what its called idk) count a lot more because the move time it takes for you to reach the blast zone the more time you have to gain control. They could potentially go up 40%

DDD: the stars around DDD protect him from QD. such a slow move will allow him to shield in time. Which is why QD rush to Dtilt wouldn't work and the ledge would still be a great way to not get hit by this. Not only that but DDD could actually reach you in the center of FD. Anyways even if all this worked you still aren't punishing him with a killing move like you originally said.

DDD can mess with Ike more than Ike can with DDD.

2 days ago we where talking about how you think DDD one of Ike's 3 worst match ups is 65-35. Then you said DDD doesn't have much on Ike that he doesn't have on DDD while I refuted.

my memory is very good, I don't mind if you forget but you should know that I won't.

1. Alright, point taken.

2. Wolf and Falco have similar recovery MOVES to Ike but their fall speed really hurts them. Ike is about average fall speed wise. DK is just sort of spike material and if he's 10 feet below the stage he's dead.

3. Understandable, you can only affect how much you move. If the situation works out, you make it out freely. If you make a mistake then you're taking a shuttle loop, but you still make it back.

4. Let's just go with frame 4 then, whatever. And actually, at any level of play, a single frame won't come into account, as there is human error. But I accept your points.

5. I said he largely loses gimp kills, not entirely. But it's not like if MK hits you with a Dair it's over. You can jump to one of three directions, airdodge, counter, Aether, jump QD towards the stage, etc. And Ike can do retreating Fairs or Nairs towards the ship, actually.

6. Yeah, it's the only viable option. It's still being on the defensive.

7. Oh, you meant they don't clash. Well, that just means that the person with the larger hitbox generally wins out (If they are the same hitboxwise, then both take the hits). Ike's Dsmash and Upsmash don't clash, for example and he'll win those wars due to hitbox length.

I don't want to comment on using aerials for recovery since I don't know a whole lot about that.

DDD: Actually, if you release at the right moment, you get him before he touches the ground, so no stars appear and he doesn't get his jumps back. Practice with it, it works. As for QD not killing, a fully charged QD kills at a bit more than 100 I think.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

lol I just noticed that after I made 3 2 I skipped 3.

Hero go argue with me why Ike is neutral with snake on the other thread.

1. Alright, point taken.

2. Wolf and Falco have similar recovery MOVES to Ike but their fall speed really hurts them. Ike is about average fall speed wise. DK is just sort of spike material and if he's 10 feet below the stage he's dead.

3. Understandable, you can only affect how much you move. If the situation works out, you make it out freely. If you make a mistake then you're taking a shuttle loop, but you still make it back.

4. Let's just go with frame 4 then, whatever. And actually, at any level of play, a single frame won't come into account, as there is human error. But I accept your points.

5. I said he largely loses gimp kills, not entirely. But it's not like if MK hits you with a Dair it's over. You can jump to one of three directions, airdodge, counter, Aether, jump QD towards the stage, etc. And Ike can do retreating Fairs or Nairs towards the ship, actually.

6. Yeah, it's the only viable option. It's still being on the defensive.

7. Oh, you meant they don't clash. Well, that just means that the person with the larger hitbox generally wins out (If they are the same hitboxwise, then both take the hits). Ike's Dsmash and Upsmash don't clash, for example and he'll win those wars due to hitbox length.

I don't want to comment on using aerials for recovery since I don't know a whole lot about that.

DDD: Actually, if you release at the right moment, you get him before he touches the ground, so no stars appear and he doesn't get his jumps back. Practice with it, it works. As for QD not killing, a fully charged QD kills at a bit more than 100 I think.

(2 is now 1 lol) 1. Except wolf and falco have better jumps and better side B's that are hard to gimp. They aren't much better but better none the less. DK isn't easier to spike his UP B SS and Ike doesn't have the aerial mobility to go out and over him to spike then come back to the stage. Also I'd like to note that DK's recovery covers so much range that he has a WoP.

2. Theres no guarantee that you'll make it back your already at a high enough percent that you where high enough to use QD high above the stage.

3. if that frame ever comes into play then it is at that level of play and no where else... thats like 4 points you accepted your running out of things to make this a neutral match up.

4. Umm no you count jump out its a semi spike meaning you get sent into the water. Now you can only move side ways which is very easy for MK to follow. Nair's hit box will be extremely small and Fair is not fast enough. Once Ike lands in the water MK just jumps again and hits him during the moment where Ike comes up for air. Plus isn't the whole point of this stage that Ike has great water control?

5. I'm not sure running away from attacks is playing defensively.

6. *sigh* you have the wrong idea on priority. when both people get hit it means that the hit/hurt boxes clashed at the same time. It has nothing to do with range its mainly timing.

Priority is pretty much X attack > Y attack when they clash. or A attack = B attack. If the size of the hit box mattered then Ike would win every time and I wouldn't argue it but it doesn't. I know that Ike's U and D smash don't clash he can have those that just means Ike only has more priority in 2 moves than MK.

Not knowing how aerial's for recovery work explain why you might think this match up is neutral how ever it means your leaving out factors. I'll give you a quick explanation of how it works though.

CPU MK : dies at 100%
AFR (calling it that to safe time)MK: dies at 110%
DI MK: dies at 130%
DI and AFR MK dies at 150%

Its just the gist of it don't quote me on this as actual percents people can live to.

100 on a light weight DDD is is the second heaviest character. Even if QD can hit him he can aim for you instead or the ledge those places are still safe because of how slow QD is.

 

[YagamiLight]

lol I just noticed that after I made 3 2 I skipped 3.

Hero go argue with me why Ike is neutral with snake on the other thread.



(2 is now 1 lol) 1. Except wolf and falco have better jumps and better side B's that are hard to gimp. They aren't much better but better none the less. DK isn't easier to spike his UP B SS and Ike doesn't have the aerial mobility to go out and over him to spike then come back to the stage. Also I'd like to note that DK's recovery covers so much range that he has a WoP.

2. Theres no guarantee that you'll make it back your already at a high enough percent that you where high enough to use QD high above the stage.

3. if that frame ever comes into play then it is at that level of play and no where else... thats like 4 points you accepted your running out of things to make this a neutral match up.

4. Umm no you count jump out its a semi spike meaning you get sent into the water. Now you can only move side ways which is very easy for MK to follow. Nair's hit box will be extremely small and Fair is not fast enough. Once Ike lands in the water MK just jumps again and hits him during the moment where Ike comes up for air. Plus isn't the whole point of this stage that Ike has great water control?

5. I'm not sure running away from attacks is playing defensively.

6. *sigh* you have the wrong idea on priority. when both people get hit it means that the hit/hurt boxes clashed at the same time. It has nothing to do with range its mainly timing.

Priority is pretty much X attack > Y attack when they clash. or A attack = B attack. If the size of the hit box mattered then Ike would win every time and I wouldn't argue it but it doesn't. I know that Ike's U and D smash don't clash he can have those that just means Ike only has more priority in 2 moves than MK.

Not knowing how aerial's for recovery work explain why you might think this match up is neutral how ever it means your leaving out factors. I'll give you a quick explanation of how it works though.

CPU MK : dies at 100%
AFR (calling it that to safe time)MK: dies at 110%
DI MK: dies at 130%
DI and AFR MK dies at 150%

Its just the gist of it don't quote me on this as actual percents people can live to.

100 on a light weight DDD is is the second heaviest character. Even if QD can hit him he can aim for you instead or the ledge those places are still safe because of how slow QD is.

1) Think of the spacies good Side Bs to be Ike's good side B, and their bad Up Bs correspond to Quick Draw. After that you just factor in Ike's fall speed and staying power, which is better than Wolf and Falco. As for DK, he's susceptible to things that normally wouldn't work as he either has to risk a terrible landing lag or sweetspot.

2) Shuttle Loop itself isn't powerful it all, it's just the direction it sends you at is ridiculous. Since you're already high up, you can make it back.

3) The reason I'm accepting them is that there's not really much more to say on the matter. I'm not going to be arguing that 4<3 am I? I will say now that thanks to your efforts a perfectly neutral match is not really an option. Good show.

4) The main point of this stage is that Ike can't be generally gimped and has a powerful spike. It does well for him on this aspect, as it reduces MK's gimping options to just one, Dair and Ike still has his spike.

5) We'll forget about that scenario then.

6) Aerials also don't clash, so Ike wins out in those five areas as well. As for the grounded moves, it's pretty much timing and range together, not one alone.

7) I said I didn't know the exact specifics of AFR, but I know the gist of it. I see what you mean, of course.

D3: If he aims for you , then you can choose to have QD and the super jump hit each other, which benefits you in the end or you can flee and return with a dash attack. If he goes for the edge, a QD to Dtilt will work, trust me.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) Think of the spacies good Side Bs to be Ike's good side B, and their bad Up Bs correspond to Quick Draw. After that you just factor in Ike's fall speed and staying power, which is better than Wolf and Falco. As for DK, he's susceptible to things that normally wouldn't work as he either has to risk a terrible landing lag or sweetspot.

2) Shuttle Loop itself isn't powerful it all, it's just the direction it sends you at is ridiculous. Since you're already high up, you can make it back.

3) The reason I'm accepting them is that there's not really much more to say on the matter. I'm not going to be arguing that 4<3 am I? I will say now that thanks to your efforts a perfectly neutral match is not really an option. Good show.

4) The main point of this stage is that Ike can't be generally gimped and has a powerful spike. It does well for him on this aspect, as it reduces MK's gimping options to just one, Dair and Ike still has his spike.

5) We'll forget about that scenario then.

6) Aerials also don't clash, so Ike wins out in those five areas as well. As for the grounded moves, it's pretty much timing and range together, not one alone.

7) I said I didn't know the exact specifics of AFR, but I know the gist of it. I see what you mean, of course.

D3: If he aims for you , then you can choose to have QD and the super jump hit each other, which benefits you in the end or you can flee and return with a dash attack. If he goes for the edge, a QD to Dtilt will work, trust me.

1. I think you meant Ike's good up B not side so lets compare these.

both are easily sped hugged. Falco and wolf can aim for the stage though and if Ike does this he will get punished sometimes by very power full moves. Also depending on the stage wolf could just go trough the stage its self.

Ike's FF speed > spacies FF speed. how ever Ike's second jump < species second jump. this is what makes them a little better but if you go argue that list and get it changed I will accept it. I won't back you up or argue against you in it though.

2. Not strong at all? I'm pretty sure its as strong as Ike's Back air. Plus this is only a disadvantage for Ike because by the time he gets out of the hit stun then MK is ready to edge guard again.

3. The only way neutral match ups can be gained is if both characters have things that they can use to win the match up evenly. Unless you can come up with a number of things that neutralize what MK has on Ike then you should admit its in MK's favor.

4. It reduces MK's gimping abilities yes how ever Dair is now ever more affective because he wasn't going to be using it on Ike against aether. It also allows MK to build up more damage while bother characters are off stage. Even here its MK off stage > Ike off stage.

Now that I think about it though this doesn't actually factor into the match up.

5. not forget dismiss as an MK win.

6. Yes aerials don't clash how ever MK's hit box will reach Ike faster if the moves are started at the same time.

Timing and range have nothing to do with priority as it just means you reached the hurt box faster. The best way to test priority is to use star men in order to ignore hurt boxes.

7. there was no 7 it was part of 6.

DDD: I'm not sure why DDD would be using up B now that I went over this a bit more Ike doesn't have many things to put him into this position.

Since DDD can build up damage faster than Ike trading blows with a stronger move is not a good idea against someone heavier than you. Also the more I look at the move the less I see it working DDD can SS on the ledge very fast. He can also make it look like he is going for the stage then change trajectories right before he lands.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. I think you meant Ike's good up B not side so lets compare these.

both are easily sped hugged. Falco and wolf can aim for the stage though and if Ike does this he will get punished sometimes by very power full moves. Also depending on the stage wolf could just go trough the stage its self.

Ike's FF speed > spacies FF speed. how ever Ike's second jump < species second jump. this is what makes them a little better but if you go argue that list and get it changed I will accept it. I won't back you up or argue against you in it though.

2. Not strong at all? I'm pretty sure its as strong as Ike's Back air. Plus this is only a disadvantage for Ike because by the time he gets out of the hit stun then MK is ready to edge guard again.

3. The only way neutral match ups can be gained is if both characters have things that they can use to win the match up evenly. Unless you can come up with a number of things that neutralize what MK has on Ike then you should admit its in MK's favor.

4. It reduces MK's gimping abilities yes how ever Dair is now ever more affective because he wasn't going to be using it on Ike against aether. It also allows MK to build up more damage while bother characters are off stage. Even here its MK off stage > Ike off stage.

Now that I think about it though this doesn't actually factor into the match up.

5. not forget dismiss as an MK win.

6. Yes aerials don't clash how ever MK's hit box will reach Ike faster if the moves are started at the same time.

Timing and range have nothing to do with priority as it just means you reached the hurt box faster. The best way to test priority is to use star men in order to ignore hurt boxes.

7. there was no 7 it was part of 6.

DDD: I'm not sure why DDD would be using up B now that I went over this a bit more Ike doesn't have many things to put him into this position.

Since DDD can build up damage faster than Ike trading blows with a stronger move is not a good idea against someone heavier than you. Also the more I look at the move the less I see it working DDD can SS on the ledge very fast. He can also make it look like he is going for the stage then change trajectories right before he lands.

1) Do remember that Aether actually gets some horizontal distance and has Super Armor as well as a "projectile" that clears that area before the actual ascent.

I think I'll go argue there when I get the chance.

2) I don't think it's as strong as Ike's back air, but I don't want to comment extensively as I don't know the exact thing. Problem is, after MK shuttle loops, he has to go ahead with the animation and by this time Ike is already on the stage. He's high up, but he's on the stage.

3) I already stated I don't think it's perfectly neutral, so it's expected MK has some sort of edge to him. Thing is, the things Ike has over him are very clear in nature. There's a few of them, and we're getting to those in the other segments of the discussion.

4) It brings the offstage capabilities of Ike closer to that of MK's, though he won't be reaching them as MK is the best offstage fighter in the game. Regardless, as you said, this isn't factoring into the match-up.

5) Since nobody took damage, I don't think it's an MK win.

6) The hitbox reaching Ike still depends on the distance, which Ike still beats MK in. I see your other points, naturally.

D3: Disregarding the QD possibility (Which can work, but I'll have to look into this quick trajectory change), Ike still gets an Ftilt on him or an Up Air, or possibly an Aether. Do you argue this?

 

[HeroMystic]

Hero go argue with me why Ike is neutral with snake on the other thread.

I think it's either 55:45 or 60:40 (looking more like 60:40 however) Snake's favor, but I think I can push for the 55:45.

Not right now though. Way too tired and I have to wake up early to go to a tournament. I'll lay out my details after my tourney match.

Wish me luck btw. I may just end up using Ike for some of my matches.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think it's either 55:45 or 60:40 (looking more like 60:40 however) Snake's favor, but I think I can push for the 55:45.

Not right now though. Way too tired and I have to wake up early to go to a tournament. I'll lay out my details after my tourney match.

Wish me luck btw. I may just end up using Ike for some of my matches.

Best of luck, Hero!

 

[Kimchi]

To kill Meta Knight outside of spikes, the Forward Tilt has great range, lure him into falling for it. The back air is virtually lagless, so do that after a SH. Can you define SH?

 

[Ussi]

Our air games are good in different ways. You've got reach, we've got speed (Yoshi has THE fastest horizontal air speed in the game, plus fast aerials other than fair). I just think speed is better. =)

Speed suits your style, range suits mine. I mentioned in the statement you quoted that Yoshi has aerial mobility. I just believe Ike's range makes up for speed.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) Do remember that Aether actually gets some horizontal distance and has Super Armor as well as a "projectile" that clears that area before the actual ascent.

I think I'll go argue there when I get the chance.

2) I don't think it's as strong as Ike's back air, but I don't want to comment extensively as I don't know the exact thing. Problem is, after MK shuttle loops, he has to go ahead with the animation and by this time Ike is already on the stage. He's high up, but he's on the stage.

3) I already stated I don't think it's perfectly neutral, so it's expected MK has some sort of edge to him. Thing is, the things Ike has over him are very clear in nature. There's a few of them, and we're getting to those in the other segments of the discussion.

4) It brings the offstage capabilities of Ike closer to that of MK's, though he won't be reaching them as MK is the best offstage fighter in the game. Regardless, as you said, this isn't factoring into the match-up.

5) Since nobody took damage, I don't think it's an MK win.

6) The hitbox reaching Ike still depends on the distance, which Ike still beats MK in. I see your other points, naturally.

D3: Disregarding the QD possibility (Which can work, but I'll have to look into this quick trajectory change), Ike still gets an Ftilt on him or an Up Air, or possibly an Aether. Do you argue this?

1. I'm not forgetting what Ike has I've been using him for 6 months with out seconds I know what he can and can't do.

Anyways all of this is meaningless because MK just has to jump behind Ike and back air him once he jumps for his sword. He can also out space it with Fsmash.

2. are you on crack? Ike gets hit by shuttle loop > MK finishes shuttle loop > Ike warps to the stage > MK starts to fall down? Where did you get this logic from?

If Ike is being launched to an area where he can QD up high then he is at a high percent shuttle loop will send him far and MK can glide faster than Ike can fall. He could also just cancel the move after it hits and start falling before Ike is even out of the hit stun.

3. Theres a lot less though in fact now its only range and power and like I said power doesn't mean he is going to be killing faster.

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK (better approach and mobility to follow up)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Ike even looses in spacing now. Plus this doesn't take into account damage building and recovering capabilities. These few things don't qualify for a 45-55 maybe not even a 40-60


4. So even with a counter pick Ike doesn't have the aerial control that MK does.

5. It is though because Ike's shield took damage. Now he can set up frame traps trough his poke or follow up with another tornado meanwhile Ike is running out of room since he is retreating. While MK has suffered nothing Ike lost control of his space and part of his shield you cant say o Ike was forced to retreat tie lol.

6. Now we're just talking about spacing again which Ike looses in overall. Range has nothing to do with priority.

DDD: yes I'll argue this because DDD can get around Ike because of his slow moment. DDD has to be in a very bad position for these to work and I have no idea how to get him there taking DI into account.

 

[YagamiLight]

To kill Meta Knight outside of spikes, the Forward Tilt has great range, lure him into falling for it. The back air is virtually lagless, so do that after a SH. Can you define SH?

A SH is a short hop.

1. I'm not forgetting what Ike has I've been using him for 6 months with out seconds I know what he can and can't do.

Anyways all of this is meaningless because MK just has to jump behind Ike and back air him once he jumps for his sword. He can also out space it with Fsmash.

2. are you on crack? Ike gets hit by shuttle loop > MK finishes shuttle loop > Ike warps to the stage > MK starts to fall down? Where did you get this logic from?

If Ike is being launched to an area where he can QD up high then he is at a high percent shuttle loop will send him far and MK can glide faster than Ike can fall. He could also just cancel the move after it hits and start falling before Ike is even out of the hit stun.

3. Theres a lot less though in fact now its only range and power and like I said power doesn't mean he is going to be killing faster.

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK (better approach and mobility to follow up)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Ike even looses in spacing now. Plus this doesn't take into account damage building and recovering capabilities. These few things don't qualify for a 45-55 maybe not even a 40-60


4. So even with a counter pick Ike doesn't have the aerial control that MK does.

5. It is though because Ike's shield took damage. Now he can set up frame traps trough his poke or follow up with another tornado meanwhile Ike is running out of room since he is retreating. While MK has suffered nothing Ike lost control of his space and part of his shield you cant say o Ike was forced to retreat tie lol.

6. Now we're just talking about spacing again which Ike looses in overall. Range has nothing to do with priority.

DDD: yes I'll argue this because DDD can get around Ike because of his slow moment. DDD has to be in a very bad position for these to work and I have no idea how to get him there taking DI into account.

1) If MK jumps and back airs, Ike can tech the hit. Hit can be reverse Aethering in any case. And I think if Ike recovers low MK can't get him with the forward smash (Not to mention I believe Aether can hit MK to clear the area so that he can't forward smash).

2) Ike is high above the stage right? When he Quick Draws he'll be in freefall inside the stage boundaries, he gets hit by Shuttle Loop, that puts him into hitstun and sends him a bit away. Thing is, MK now has to waste plenty of time which Ike gets to recover as he sees fit.

3) First off, Ike still outprioritizes the Tornado, more than all other characters I think. If that's not a boon, nothing is. Secondly, I don't entirely agree with your assessment (Changes are in a different color)

ZONING

* On the ground MK (I agree, MK's fast speed wins this one)
* In the air Ike (Factor in MK's poor air speed and Ike's space covering moves)
* Off-stage MK (Duh)


SPACING

* Extreme long distanceNobody (This is foolish to quantify, as then MK beats every character not named Falco at extreme long distance since he's good at approaching and is fast)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance Ike (as stated, the fight won't reach this area, but when it does Ike can just jab on reflex and get MK out of here, the jab won't reach at medium distance but you can't deny the effectiveness here)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike (Yeah)
* Gimping potential MK (Yeah)

4. Only stuff like Jigglypuff, Wario or Squirtle really rivals MK in off stage Air Combat. Ike in the water comes close.

5. It's merely a battle run away from in a giant war. Ike is now at optimal distance, MK has to follow.

6. Referenced above. I wouldn't say he loses in spacing at all.

D3: To get Dedede to use his up b, Ike just has to take advantage of his 5 really bad jumps.

 

[Mmac]

The on-topicness of this thread surprises me

 

[Ussi]

Ike's are never on topic. But hey we get stuff done xD

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Idk the yoshi match up if I did I would be talking just as much about it as I am with MK.

A SH is a short hop.

1) If MK jumps and back airs, Ike can tech the hit. Hit can be reverse Aethering in any case. And I think if Ike recovers low MK can't get him with the forward smash (Not to mention I believe Aether can hit MK to clear the area so that he can't forward smash).

2) Ike is high above the stage right? When he Quick Draws he'll be in freefall inside the stage boundaries, he gets hit by Shuttle Loop, that puts him into hitstun and sends him a bit away. Thing is, MK now has to waste plenty of time which Ike gets to recover as he sees fit.

3) First off, Ike still outprioritizes the Tornado, more than all other characters I think. If that's not a boon, nothing is. Secondly, I don't entirely agree with your assessment (Changes are in a different color)

ZONING

* On the ground MK (I agree, MK's fast speed wins this one)
* In the air Ike (Factor in MK's poor air speed and Ike's space covering moves)
* Off-stage MK (Duh)


SPACING

* Extreme long distanceNobody (This is foolish to quantify, as then MK beats every character not named Falco at extreme long distance since he's good at approaching and is fast)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance Ike (as stated, the fight won't reach this area, but when it does Ike can just jab on reflex and get MK out of here, the jab won't reach at medium distance but you can't deny the effectiveness here)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike (Yeah)
* Gimping potential MK (Yeah)

4. Only stuff like Jigglypuff, Wario or Squirtle really rivals MK in off stage Air Combat. Ike in the water comes close.

5. It's merely a battle run away from in a giant war. Ike is now at optimal distance, MK has to follow.

6. Referenced above. I wouldn't say he loses in spacing at all.

D3: To get Dedede to use his up b, Ike just has to take advantage of his 5 really bad jumps.

1. OMG Ike techs the hit but guess what here come another 4 aerials and a shuttle loop follow up. Depending on the stage FD in this case I believe Ike won't make it back even if he techs.

Shuttle loop goes trough aether how many times must I tell you this? I was the first one to mention reverse aether and I said it right away.

Nope he can't If MK spaces right he will hit with Fsmash.

2. no for god sakes this is just wrong. I can't argue this because its just false. MK will reach the ground in time to re edge guard Ike.

3. No not more than other characters http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191593&highlight=tornado

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK ( MK doesn't have poor aerial speed and his multi jumps allow him to out maneuver Ike very easily. All of his attacks come out faster than Ike's and only Fair out range's MK)
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK (not just falco any one who can camp which is not Ike. If either character is forced to approach be it sage hazards or say someone is stalling because they have the higher percents then MK has the advantage you can not deny this and dismiss it as its stupid and won't happen.)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK( yes I can because MK has about 5 moves that out speed Ike's jab. Or are you really going to say 1 4 frame move > 5 2-3 fame moves? )


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Even if I where to agree on the things you corrected (which I don't) it would be
spacing:tie
killing:tie
Zoning:MK

this is now MK's advantage no questions asked. Then add onto it the recovery and damage building that MK has and it goes even more into his favor.

4. It doesn't matter if hes close he still looses.

5. run away does not = tie. MK has no problem following and in fact he can follow faster than Ike can get back into his defensive position.

6. except you disregarded extreme long distances it is at best a tie. meaning Ike now only has o wait nothing because killing potential is also a tie.

DDD: and to avoid this all DDD has to do is take advantage of his http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/ArturitoBurrito/howdood9.png?t=1226265219

edit: made things prettyer

 

[Ussi]

I'll add MK's glide attack hitbox is ridiculous (and it cancels to dsmash...-_-). and MK glides pretty fast.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. OMG Ike techs the hit but guess what here come another 4 aerials and a shuttle loop follow up. Depending on the stage FD in this case I believe Ike won't make it back even if he techs.

Shuttle loop goes trough aether how many times must I tell you this? I was the first one to mention reverse aether and I said it right away.

Nope he can't If MK spaces right he will hit with Fsmash.

2. no for god sakes this is just wrong. I can't argue this because its just false. MK will reach the ground in time to re edge guard Ike.

3. No not more than other characters http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191593&highlight=tornado

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK ( MK doesn't have poor aerial speed and his multi jumps allow him to out maneuver Ike very easily. All of his attacks come out faster than Ike's and only Fair out range's MK)
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK (not just falco any one who can camp which is not Ike. If either character is forced to approach be it sage hazards or say someone is stalling because they have the higher percents then MK has the advantage you can not deny this and dismiss it as its stupid and won't happen.)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK( yes I can because MK has about 5 moves that out speed Ike's jab. Or are you really going to say 1 4 frame move > 5 2-3 fame moves? )


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Even if I where to agree on the things you corrected (which I don't) it would be
spacing:tie
killing:tie
Zoning:MK

this is now MK's advantage no questions asked. Then add onto it the recovery and damage building that MK has and it goes even more into his favor.

4. It doesn't matter if hes close he still looses.

5. run away does not = tie. MK has no problem following and in fact he can follow faster than Ike can get back into his defensive position.

6. except you disregarded extreme long distances it is at best a tie. meaning Ike now only has o wait nothing because killing potential is also a tie.

DDD: and to avoid this all DDD has to do is take advantage of his http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u119/ArturitoBurrito/howdood9.png?t=1226265219

edit: made things prettyer

1 I'm pretty sure Ike makes it back on with a tech, but since I've never been in that scenario again a Meta Knight, I don't want to comment extensively.

And as I said even if MK spaces it won't hit an Ike recovering very low with an Fsmash.

2 MK will reach the ground before Ike comes close to being on the ground, but you can't deny that Ike is on top of the stage by this point.

3 So I went ahead and counted. Ike and Lucas have 11 things that beat out the tornado, tied at second place with Meta Knight himself at 12 things that beat it out. Are you going to try to convince me that this isn't important?

4 (Replacing the water combat section [Which doesn't even factor into anything])
MK's damage racking and recovery are all factored into gimping. Ike is good at on stage gimps, but MK just blows him out of the water. Nobody is denying this. So let's look at the things I posted once more

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air Ike ( MK indeed has poor aerial speed and his jumps are low in height, not to mention that Fair, Nair and Bair all work from Ike's side)
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance Nobody(For Ike to have taken damage, MK will have approached already, or it's a later stock, this isn't important)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance Ike(Ike's jab is better than those one frame faster moves)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK


Now, let's tally them up!

Zoning: MK
Spacing: Ike
Killing: Both

5. If nobody took damage and Ike is at an optimal spacing range, it's a tie.

6. See above.

D3: Ike can easily bait an airdodge, bro. You know that.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1 I'm pretty sure Ike makes it back on with a tech, but since I've never been in that scenario again a Meta Knight, I don't want to comment extensively.

And as I said even if MK spaces it won't hit an Ike recovering very low with an Fsmash.

2 MK will reach the ground before Ike comes close to being on the ground, but you can't deny that Ike is on top of the stage by this point.

3 So I went ahead and counted. Ike and Lucas have 11 things that beat out the tornado, tied at second place with Meta Knight himself at 12 things that beat it out. Are you going to try to convince me that this isn't important?

4 (Replacing the water combat section [Which doesn't even factor into anything])
MK's damage racking and recovery are all factored into gimping. Ike is good at on stage gimps, but MK just blows him out of the water. Nobody is denying this. So let's look at the things I posted once more

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air Ike ( MK indeed has poor aerial speed and his jumps are low in height, not to mention that Fair, Nair and Bair all work from Ike's side)
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance Nobody(For Ike to have taken damage, MK will have approached already, or it's a later stock, this isn't important)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance Ike(Ike's jab is better than those one frame faster moves)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK


Now, let's tally them up!

Zoning: MK
Spacing: Ike
Killing: Both

5. If nobody took damage and Ike is at an optimal spacing range, it's a tie.

6. See above.

D3: Ike can easily bait an airdodge, bro. You know that.

1. every time you don't comment extensively it is something you must give to MK.

In which case MK would just speed hug its a loose loose situation.

2. yes I can because in the air shuttle loop has a much more horizontal trajectory than vertical.

Just to humor you I will give you that shuttle loop can't edge guard QD but guess what since we are high above the stage he can tornado you into the vertical blast zone.

3. Yes because I've already said that MK won't use tornado at a spot where Ike can use these moves. not only that but even though Ike has the 2nd most number of moves to counter it plenty of other characters have more *** moves against it that are easier to use. One of ours is counter for god's sake.

4. They aren't factored into gimping it talks about how well a character can gimp not how well a character can avoid being gimped. Damage racking has nothing to do with gimping either.

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK

MK has the best aerial game in Brawl

(I have provided proof for my arguments countless times unless you can do the same you have no right to change this. )
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK(How the hell did you pass this off as it doesn't matter in your head? You just said o MK approached for the first 10 seconds of the match and hit a 2% this doesn't matter though because 10 seconds have passed.)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK(Ike's jab is not better than Dtilt ok? You will find no one to back you up on this while I can go and do this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816 once again unless you find evidence you have no right to change this.)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Lets tally them up with your logic
Zoning : MK
Spacing: don't matter after 10 seconds of the match have gone by.
Killing: tie.

isn't logic awesome?

5. Ike's shield took damage while MK's didn't MK now has the advantage. Ike is also not at his optimal spacing range a roll does not get you far enough to where fair can keep MK out.

6. Ike has nothing on MK now unless you provide evidence of it.

DDD: not an air dodge a shield. Ike doesn't have a way around DDDs shield. Also with DDDs mobility baiting an air dodge won't put you in a position to follow up.

 

[XACE-K]

The on-topicness of this thread surprises me

Me too.

Ike's are never on topic. But hey we get stuff done xD

QFT. Somehow in all our arguing, we have info for the stuff we need.

But than other boards come, get angry, and we argue again. Rinse and repeat this process over and over agin and we got the Ike boards.

But I still have to agree with Mmac. Shouldn't we go back to talking about Yoshi?

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I agree with the statement that Meta Knight has the best aerial game of all. He may move slowly in the air, but his attacks are all lightning fast and lagless on execution.

 

[Ussi]

Problem: Yoshi egg spams

Answer: Ike's DA goes under Yoshi's eggs or dash PS them.

Problem: Yoshi combos with bair, dair, and nair

Answer: Bair is out ranged by Fair. If you always abuse your range, Yoshi's will use bair less. Yoshi has mobility so learn to calculate when fair has to be executed to hit Yoshi before he gets to you. Yoshi's DJ into a AD or an attack. I've seen DJ > dair > nair, pretty damaging combo. Lack of hitstun allows you to shield if you are on the ground during dair. Shield all the way and wait for the nair or roll backwards.

Problem: Yoshi has a CG release on Ike

Answer: Suck it up. mash to get out sooner so you take less damage. Pivot grabs should not get you, only dash grabs.




I think thats all that needs to be said. now back to off topic

 

[YagamiLight]

1. every time you don't comment extensively it is something you must give to MK.

In which case MK would just speed hug its a loose loose situation.

2. yes I can because in the air shuttle loop has a much more horizontal trajectory than vertical.

Just to humor you I will give you that shuttle loop can't edge guard QD but guess what since we are high above the stage he can tornado you into the vertical blast zone.

3. Yes because I've already said that MK won't use tornado at a spot where Ike can use these moves. not only that but even though Ike has the 2nd most number of moves to counter it plenty of other characters have more *** moves against it that are easier to use. One of ours is counter for god's sake.

4. They aren't factored into gimping it talks about how well a character can gimp not how well a character can avoid being gimped. Damage racking has nothing to do with gimping either.

ZONING

* On the ground MK
* In the air MK (I have provided proof for my arguments countless times unless you can do the same you have no right to change this. )
* Off-stage MK


SPACING

* Extreme long distance MK(How the hell did you pass this off as it doesn't matter in your head? You just said o MK approached for the first 10 seconds of the match and hit a 2% this doesn't matter though because 10 seconds have passed.)
* Long distance Ike
* Medium distance MK
* Short distance MK(Ike's jab is not better than Dtilt ok? You will find no one to back you up on this while I can go and do this. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183816 once again unless you find evidence you have no right to change this.)


KILLING

* Killing power Ike
* Gimping potential MK

Lets tally them up with your logic
Zoning : MK
Spacing: don't matter after 10 seconds of the match have gone by.
Killing: tie.

isn't logic awesome?

5. Ike's shield took damage while MK's didn't MK now has the advantage. Ike is also not at his optimal spacing range a roll does not get you far enough to where fair can keep MK out.

6. Ike has nothing on MK now unless you provide evidence of it.

DDD: not an air dodge a shield. Ike doesn't have a way around DDDs shield. Also with DDDs mobility baiting an air dodge won't put you in a position to follow up.

1) I'm not giving the point to MK, so far you've said MK bairs and I say Ike techs. At this point Ike is fairly close to the edge.

2) Alright, tornado can kill if fresh and close to the blast zone. If it doesn't kill, MK is in free fall.

3) Ike has a few *** moves that are effective, such as the Nair or Fair. Counter isn't too useful but whatever.

4) For the purposes of this discussion, Ike's recovery and MK's recovery shall factor into gimp talks.

5) I'll just address those claims briefly as we obviously have different views of the scenario. Ike's jab is generally a win-win situation, you know that. If MK came up and did 2% to Ike he didn't then suddenly go to the other side of the stage, he is RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. And you've failed to refute that MK has poor aerial mobility and mediocre jumps.

6) Alright, MK got a very tiny advantage in that Ike's shield took a bit of damage. We'll assume MK did a lagless tornado, went away and wasn't punished out of Ike's shield.

7) I like how you're systematically trying to reduce everything Ike has to tokens. Ike outprioritizes the moves that don't clash, Ike outranges at his optimal distance, strength is a whole other category. I don't think that saying "Ike has nothing on MK" is correct at all.

D3: Baiting an airdodge and Fairing him will make him use his Up B, mission accomplished. And it's not like Ike can't do anything about Dedede's shield, he can grab and jab if up close and I still think that Dedede can't make it in time if Ike spaces a fair perfectly.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) I'm not giving the point to MK, so far you've said MK bairs and I say Ike techs. At this point Ike is fairly close to the edge.

2) Alright, tornado can kill if fresh and close to the blast zone. If it doesn't kill, MK is in free fall.

3) Ike has a few *** moves that are effective, such as the Nair or Fair. Counter isn't too useful but whatever.

4) For the purposes of this discussion, Ike's recovery and MK's recovery shall factor into gimp talks.

5) I'll just address those claims briefly as we obviously have different views of the scenario. Ike's jab is generally a win-win situation, you know that. If MK came up and did 2% to Ike he didn't then suddenly go to the other side of the stage, he is RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. And you've failed to refute that MK has poor aerial mobility and mediocre jumps.

6) Alright, MK got a very tiny advantage in that Ike's shield took a bit of damage. We'll assume MK did a lagless tornado, went away and wasn't punished out of Ike's shield.

7) I like how you're systematically trying to reduce everything Ike has to tokens. Ike outprioritizes the moves that don't clash, Ike outranges at his optimal distance, strength is a whole other category. I don't think that saying "Ike has nothing on MK" is correct at all.

D3: Baiting an airdodge and Fairing him will make him use his Up B, mission accomplished. And it's not like Ike can't do anything about Dedede's shield, he can grab and jab if up close and I still think that Dedede can't make it in time if Ike spaces a fair perfectly.

1. Then you have to prove its possible other wise your just being thick headed and biased refusing to admit that MK has a clear advantage over Ike. You not being able to refute 4 proves this.

2. MK's free fall will get him to the stage faster than Ike and allow him to follow up. Also in this scenario MK is the clear winner no questions asked because Ike just took 20%

Also Tornado has fixed knock back so it kills here even if its been used 9 times in a row.

3. Yes he has a few moves but not as many as you made it sound like. This pretty much means that a lot of other characters have better options against MK's tornado.

4. why would you factor recovering into gimping? Its like completely different if your recovering then your not gimping if your gimping then you aren't recovering.

Anyways since you can't refute my previous 4 it goes like this.

Zoning: MK
Spacing: MK
killing: tie

Since these 2 aren't in there or supposed to be in there according to the original topic that its based on then its also

Recovery: MK
Priority: MK

6. He also has better control of the stage now. And how did you plan to punish MK out of shield with a roll lol?

7. The weight of these things that Ike has on MK are nothing. By agreeing yo 4 you agreed to these things being mere tokens. How ever you already agreed that a neutral match up is determined by how many things character X has on Y and vice versa. In this case Ike does not have enough things to warrant a neutral match up be them tokens or not.

DDD: You have to bait it 5 times though thanks to all those jumps. If DDD recovers low with them Ike can't do anything against this.

With good DI Ike can not force DDD to use his up B. DDD has 3 jumps though just an FYI.

 

[Ussi]

I thought DDD has 4 jumps? w/e he has to always use all of them when sent far out. He has the worst aerial mobility.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. Then you have to prove its possible other wise your just being thick headed and biased refusing to admit that MK has a clear advantage over Ike. You not being able to refute 4 proves this.

2. MK's free fall will get him to the stage faster than Ike and allow him to follow up. Also in this scenario MK is the clear winner no questions asked because Ike just took 20%

Also Tornado has fixed knock back so it kills here even if its been used 9 times in a row.

3. Yes he has a few moves but not as many as you made it sound like. This pretty much means that a lot of other characters have better options against MK's tornado.

4. why would you factor recovering into gimping? Its like completely different if your recovering then your not gimping if your gimping then you aren't recovering.

Anyways since you can't refute my previous 4 it goes like this.

Zoning: MK
Spacing: MK
killing: tie

Since these 2 aren't in there or supposed to be in there according to the original topic that its based on then its also

Recovery: MK
Priority: MK

6. He also has better control of the stage now. And how did you plan to punish MK out of shield with a roll lol?

7. The weight of these things that Ike has on MK are nothing. By agreeing yo 4 you agreed to these things being mere tokens. How ever you already agreed that a neutral match up is determined by how many things character X has on Y and vice versa. In this case Ike does not have enough things to warrant a neutral match up be them tokens or not.

DDD: You have to bait it 5 times though thanks to all those jumps. If DDD recovers low with them Ike can't do anything against this.

With good DI Ike can not force DDD to use his up B. DDD has 3 jumps though just an FYI.

1) The points I was unable to refute mainly had to do with me being unable to argue something due to the simplicity. In any case, Ike can probably tech it and hit MK with aether, can he not?

2) MK wins here since Ike took a bit of damage, yes. Ike's fast fall speed is better than MK's, however, so MK isn't totally safe.

3) Nair, Fair, Bair are REALLY good options for the tornado.

4) I'd factor in recovery into gimping because your ability to gimp factors into how well the opponent can recover and vice versa.

Spacing is a tie, Zoning is an extra point for MK, killing is a tie, recovery is MK, priority is still Ike since the moves clash on the invinsible sword moves and Ike wins out on the moves that can be outprioritized (Like Glide attack and Tornado)

6) I actually meant that if the tornado ended when Ike was right next to MK you could do something.

7) A perfectly neutral match-up generally involves equal token weight. Since we are showing that MK has a bit more weight on his side, the match-up is obviously not 50-50.

D3: If dedede is recovering low that's rather risky as you could get spiked. But yeah, if the DDD dIs upward he shouldn't be put in a dangerous position from the fair (Though he is taking the Fair damage) if he's sent out only a bit.

Edit: As Ussi said, if Ike knocks him out far enough that's when all of this comes into play.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1) The points I was unable to refute mainly had to do with me being unable to argue something due to the simplicity. In any case, Ike can probably tech it and hit MK with aether, can he not?

2) MK wins here since Ike took a bit of damage, yes. Ike's fast fall speed is better than MK's, however, so MK isn't totally safe.

3) Nair, Fair, Bair are REALLY good options for the tornado.

4) I'd factor in recovery into gimping because your ability to gimp factors into how well the opponent can recover and vice versa.

Spacing is a tie, Zoning is an extra point for MK, killing is a tie, recovery is MK, priority is still Ike since the moves clash on the invinsible sword moves and Ike wins out on the moves that can be outprioritized (Like Glide attack and Tornado)

6) I actually meant that if the tornado ended when Ike was right next to MK you could do something.

7) A perfectly neutral match-up generally involves equal token weight. Since we are showing that MK has a bit more weight on his side, the match-up is obviously not 50-50.

D3: If dedede is recovering low that's rather risky as you could get spiked. But yeah, if the DDD dIs upward he shouldn't be put in a dangerous position from the fair (Though he is taking the Fair damage) if he's sent out only a bit.

Edit: As Ussi said, if Ike knocks him out far enough that's when all of this comes into play.

1. Probably not because MK could follow up faster than Ike can with aether. Even if he where to hit MK with aether MK can once again just shuttle loop trough it.

2. Ike was launched higher than MK so MK will still reach the ground faster than him.

3. They are but many characters have many more options just as good or better.

4. I suppose theres some logic behind that and it would be more match up specific but this makes it a bit more inaccurate since now 2 things that MK has over Ike are turned into 1.

Spacing is not a tie you where not able to refute MK having the advantage in 2 fields even if you where to ignore extreme long distances.

MK's moves don't clash they will go right trough Ike's and hit him you can go argue this with ninjalink if you want though. Until you do priority is MK's.

6. MK has control of his movement during the tornado and he can position him self out of Ike's jab range and close enough to do a second tornado.

7. He has enough weight for it to not be a 45-55 as well.

DDD: Ike isn't going to be able to spike DDD if he is recovering low. I'll go ahead and agree to Ike being able to edge guard DDD with Fair though except that its not nearly as bad as what DDD can do on Ike.

Trough this entire discussion you seemed to have agreed that Ike isn't the best choice to edge guard DDD though so what exactly does Ike have on DDD that you don't think this should be a 70-30?

 

[Ussi]

Ike vs DDD:

Ike out ranges DDD in the air horizontally. Veritcally DDD wins. DDD and Ike have comparable attack speeds. Also getting bair'd by DDD should be rare (besides edge guarding) because you severely out range it. Always space fair to avoid being grabbed. Jab cancel!! Ike's bair > DDD's bair

Now when trying to come back to the stage. THINK HOW DDD WILL TRY TO EDGE GUARD YOU! Dependant on your position, you may chose to aether earlier before DDD gets off. If DDD comes out earlier, DJ fair. ALWAYS SAVE YOUR MID AIR JUMP!!!!!

If you do get hit by a bair, you're dead. End of story.

Because DDD has CG's, he gets Ike off stage easily. If DDD edge guarded Ike easily, this match up would be 0:100 DDD because DDD's CG's will always put Ike off stage. Learn to recover against DDD.

DDD is spiking material. Plus his Up B leaves him open for punishment. Uair is lovely.

I personally believe the match up is 35/65. CGs to follow ups + more damaging moves put it in DDD's favor.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. Probably not because MK could follow up faster than Ike can with aether. Even if he where to hit MK with aether MK can once again just shuttle loop trough it.

2. Ike was launched higher than MK so MK will still reach the ground faster than him.

3. They are but many characters have many more options just as good or better.

4. I suppose theres some logic behind that and it would be more match up specific but this makes it a bit more inaccurate since now 2 things that MK has over Ike are turned into 1.

Spacing is not a tie you where not able to refute MK having the advantage in 2 fields even if you where to ignore extreme long distances.

MK's moves don't clash they will go right trough Ike's and hit him you can go argue this with ninjalink if you want though. Until you do priority is MK's.

6. MK has control of his movement during the tornado and he can position him self out of Ike's jab range and close enough to do a second tornado.

7. He has enough weight for it to not be a 45-55 as well.

DDD: Ike isn't going to be able to spike DDD if he is recovering low. I'll go ahead and agree to Ike being able to edge guard DDD with Fair though except that its not nearly as bad as what DDD can do on Ike.

Trough this entire discussion you seemed to have agreed that Ike isn't the best choice to edge guard DDD though so what exactly does Ike have on DDD that you don't think this should be a 70-30?

1) As I don't want to just go by theory, I'll just say that MK has more options and as such the upper hand.

2) That depends on the fall speed and how high they were.

3) Ike is definitely in the top part of the cast who can mess with the tornado.

4) Glad you agree that it's logical. It's a fairly big thing that MK has over Ike then instead of two smaller things. It's just combining them.

As for spacing, I still argue that the jab is just as good as Meta Knight's down tilt, if not better for the damage output. At close range, it's a tie.

5) They will both hit each other unless it's a move that has cancellable properties in which case it goes to Ike.

6) Alright, does MK have enough time to escape a 12 frame dashgrab, however?

7) Purely debatable. Do you agree with the boundary of 45-55 to 35-65 as being logical, however?


DDD: The arguments should be made as to what does Dedede have on Ike to deviate it from a neutral. Shall I name them? CG, edgeguard game. What does Ike have? More strength and range, also an edgeguard game, spikes.

The CG is very important, mind you, as it results in two Dthrows and an Fthrow from the center of Final.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Thats not really what Ike has on DDD ussi its what he can do to avoid getting ***** which isn't full proof. I don't actually feel like argueing against you though because you seem to know it much better.

edit: *face palm* just leave DDD to Ussi yagami. Ike has more strength than DDD? lol. DDD has speed over Ike btw.

1) As I don't want to just go by theory, I'll just say that MK has more options and as such the upper hand.

2) That depends on the fall speed and how high they were.

3) Ike is definitely in the top part of the cast who can mess with the tornado.

4) Glad you agree that it's logical. It's a fairly big thing that MK has over Ike then instead of two smaller things. It's just combining them.

As for spacing, I still argue that the jab is just as good as Meta Knight's down tilt, if not better for the damage output. At close range, it's a tie.

5) They will both hit each other unless it's a move that has cancellable properties in which case it goes to Ike.

6) Alright, does MK have enough time to escape a 12 frame dashgrab, however?

7) Purely debatable. Do you agree with the boundary of 45-55 to 35-65 as being logical, however?

moving everything down.

0. ok then another point for MK

1. It was high enough that MK could kill Ike with the tornado. Fall speeds don't change. You can test this very easily by taking MK and Ike to some stage with a platform, tornadoing him, and FF with both to see who reaches the ground first.

2. He is but only against a spaming tornado MK. Ike has nothing at mid range to beat MK's tornado everything is to slow.

3. It's still watering it down which I do not agree with.

It looses in speed and Dtilt is a real frame trap that can lead to 30% combos or kill moves. How the hell is a slower weaker move better?

4. No MK will hit first because his moves are faster you can not forget speed in this. Also none of MK's attacks clash except specials and the glide attack. Ike out prioritizes 3 moves that MK has while MK does it on all of Ike's arsenal.

5. Yes because Ike is to far to dash grab. Even if he was close its enough time to dodge it. Plus in this scenerio there is nothing to stop MK from doing a second tornado which will eat the grab alive.

6. No I don't agree I've already told you this. And its not debate able you've been trying to do it and have failed. Ike literally has nothing on MK now.

 

[YagamiLight]

edit: *face palm* just leave DDD to Ussi yagami. Ike has more strength than DDD? lol. DDD has speed over Ike btw.

Sure thing, Ussi can have DDD if he wants, but it's time to address issues.

Ike does have more strength than Dedede, don't "lol" me . We can do a comparison if you'd like.

And as for speed, attack speed wise Dedede is better (on most moves, especially tilts) while Ike has the better run speed.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Ike's run speed is about .5 seconds better than DDD's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEqUPu6ysK4&feature=related

Do a comparison then I've gathered enough proof.


Also edited the other post.

 

[Kinzer]

I am in your post, stealing your Yoshi emoticons.

So can somebody take Lights place in the argument so he can make a write-up for Yoshi? At this rate the both of them are too stubborn to get anywhere anytime soon...

Also don't try and prove otherwise, you know who you are... If you wanted to continue the debate, you would do so in the other thread... I have next to no clue what Yoshi can do to Ike no thanks to the BS in the past few pages, so when I might one day be in a big tournament and my opponent happens to be a Yoshi I'll thank you two when I lost when I probably could've had a better chance to win.

And Burrito, I've had enough of your smart comments, I don't want to hear anything out of you that sounds like "you'll never get in an in-person tournament." or anything close to it, just keep it to yourself.

 

[YagamiLight]

1. It was high enough that MK could kill Ike with the tornado. Fall speeds don't change. You can test this very easily by taking MK and Ike to some stage with a platform, tornadoing him, and FF with both to see who reaches the ground first.

2. He is but only against a spaming tornado MK. Ike has nothing at mid range to beat MK's tornado everything is to slow.

3. It's still watering it down which I do not agree with.

It looses in speed and Dtilt is a real frame trap that can lead to 30% combos or kill moves. How the hell is a slower weaker move better?

4. No MK will hit first because his moves are faster you can not forget speed in this. Also none of MK's attacks clash except specials and the glide attack. Ike out prioritizes 3 moves that MK has while MK does it on all of Ike's arsenal.

5. Yes because Ike is to far to dash grab. Even if he was close its enough time to dodge it. Plus in this scenerio there is nothing to stop MK from doing a second tornado which will eat the grab alive.

6. No I don't agree I've already told you this. And its not debate able you've been trying to do it and have failed. Ike literally has nothing on MK now.

1) Fall speeds obviously matter more the higher you are. If MK doesn't kill with the tornado, he is in free fall while Ike is not (meaning that Ike can also prep an attack from the air in addition to falling faster)

2) Pivot Bair? Counter?

3) One frame of difference. ONE FRAME. And you are touting this as "OMG MK ***** Ike at close quarters". And I was not referencing Dtilt's trap possibilities, I was merely saying that the jab combo does more than the Dtilt.

4) You are also forgetting distance, are you not? Ike will win if he is farther way, MK will win if he is closer. Then Ike beats the specials and the glide attack.

5) The dash grab is 12 frames and has significant range. I think you are overstating how far away the tornado goes.

6) I'm failing? I am systematically answering your points. You seem to be the one who doesn't want to admit that Ike actually has things on MK.

Now for an Ike v DDD comparison, because you like evidence so much! I will be comparing all of their moves and be saying who wins in what.

Move name Power Speed

Jab Ike Ike

Ftilt Ike DDD

Dtilt Ike DDD

Up Tilt DDD DDD (I'm not sure about this one)

Dash Attack DDD Ike

Nair Ike DDD

Fair Ike Ike (I'm not 100% sure on this)

Up Air Ike DDD

Dair Ike DDD

Bair Ike DDD probably, but again I'm not sure

Up Smash Ike DDD

Fsmash DDD Ike

Dsmash DDD Ike

Up B DDD Ike

Down B DDD (assuming full charge) Ike

Side B Ike (assuming charged) Not sure on DDD's speed

Neutral B Ike DDD

Is that everything?


EDIT: Kinzer is totally correct. We've filled the last three pages with this argument and the Yoshi write-up hasn't even been started yet. I'm putting this on hold until I get Yoshi and Lucas done.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

And Burrito, I've had enough of your smart comments, I don't want to hear anything out of you that sounds like "you'll never get in an in-person tournament." or anything close to it, just keep it to yourself.

why would I say that? I encourage people to go to tournaments and stop going o I'll show you how good Ike is, meet me on online. Since thats the only thing you do though its why I always bother you about it.

1) Fall speeds obviously matter more the higher you are. If MK doesn't kill with the tornado, he is in free fall while Ike is not (meaning that Ike can also prep an attack from the air in addition to falling faster)

2) Pivot Bair? Counter?

3) One frame of difference. ONE FRAME. And you are touting this as "OMG MK ***** Ike at close quarters". And I was not referencing Dtilt's trap possibilities, I was merely saying that the jab combo does more than the Dtilt.

4) You are also forgetting distance, are you not? Ike will win if he is farther way, MK will win if he is closer. Then Ike beats the specials and the glide attack.

5) The dash grab is 12 frames and has significant range. I think you are overstating how far away the tornado goes.

6) I'm failing? I am systematically answering your points. You seem to be the one who doesn't want to admit that Ike actually has things on MK.

EDIT: Kinzer is totally correct. We've filled the last three pages with this argument and the Yoshi write-up hasn't even been started yet. I'm putting this on hold until I get Yoshi and Lucas done.

1. Yes they matter but Ike won't reach MK in time he doesn't fall that much faster.

2. not fast enough.

3. Well if you where leaving out stuff then of course the jab does more than the Dtilt. This 1 frame factors in. You are seriously saying 4 frames > 3 frames because you keep thinking Ike has the advantage in close combat. I'm not saying MK ***** him how ever he does out do him.

4. Yes I'm forgetting distance because they have nothing to do with priority stop being stupid about this. Fine Ike wins in those 3 moves what does he loose in the other 20 or so attacks that they have.

5. It goes across FD you tell me Ike's dash grab can reach this. btw if it goes across FD it can most certainly just go far enough to where he won't be dash grabbed.

6. (You used the word systematically wrong.) as of now Ike has nothing on MK he looses or ties at best in everything and you have no way of proving other wise.

DDD: to many of his moves have fixed knock back. Compare the ones that don't then compare the ones that are actual kill moves to see how well Ike does. I'm not even sure how you tested this since down B should have the same knock back... And DDD has grodos.

Kinzers comment: do the write up and then get back to this its not that hard. You can't just choose to ignore arguments though. You could how ever agree then try to prove them wrong later on.

 

[Sharky]

*is back from Rochester, and a weekend of playing with Kirk for large amounts of time*

Some comments. Note that these are from Yoshi's point of view.

1. The chaingrab works, though the window of opportunity is noticeably smaller than most of Yoshi's other CG's. Ike can try to mash jump to get out in hopes of a mistake, but if he starts his jump and gets grabbed, he's done for. I still don't know if release->dair works, because I only tried it a couple times, but the one time I think I did it right, Kirk lost his jump in the cg, anyway, so he was already dead. A couple times, instead of grabbing, I did a nair, to good effect. Makes for a nice way to mix things up.

2. Up close the two are even. Their jabs are the same speed, and both can make quick punishments just as well as the other.

3. Pivot grabs, albeit not nearly as common as Yoshi's other match-ups, still have a place here.

4. I powershielded (not sure if it was forward or back) throw to dash attack once. I still dunno how it happened, but it proves that it's not a true combo.

5. Eggs are nice here. Very nice. Forcing Ike to approach in this manner is the best thing Yoshi can do in many situations.

6. Bairs are hard to get in, believe it or not. Well, not exactly hard, but it requires proper surveilance of the situation. They make for a very nice punishment since they lead into other moves, but as an approach it will often be shielded/spotdodged (mostly shielded) and punished with a grab or jab.

7. Probably a third or a bit more of my KO's were nairs. Next would be upsmashes, followed by various other moves.

8. Best stage is definitely FD out of the neutrals (unless delfino is a neutral, then cg offstage to your hearts content).

9. These matches actually made me become a fan of (moderate) ledgecamping. Ledge-hopped DJC'd neutral b's made for a great way to turn the tables.

Most of the matches went to Kirk, but I personally think that he's a bit better of a player overall than me, and that's why they went the way they did, rather than it being the match-up. I'm going to say 50-50 even still. So long as Yoshi doesn't go recklessly on the offensive, (same for Ike) it's winnable with either side, no problem.

 

[Kinzer]

Err...Light, you mispelled "comply" on the headlining paragraph.

Just letting you know.

 

[Ussi]

*is back from Rochester, and a weekend of playing with Kirk for large amounts of time*

Some comments. Note that these are from Yoshi's point of view.

1. The chaingrab works, though the window of opportunity is noticeably smaller than most of Yoshi's other CG's. Ike can try to mash jump to get out in hopes of a mistake, but if he starts his jump and gets grabbed, he's done for. I still don't know if release->dair works, because I only tried it a couple times, but the one time I think I did it right, Kirk lost his jump in the cg, anyway, so he was already dead. A couple times, instead of grabbing, I did a nair, to good effect. Makes for a nice way to mix things up.

2. Up close the two are even. Their jabs are the same speed, and both can make quick punishments just as well as the other.

3. Pivot grabs, albeit not nearly as common as Yoshi's other match-ups, still have a place here.

4. I powershielded (not sure if it was forward or back) throw to dash attack once. I still dunno how it happened, but it proves that it's not a true combo.

5. Eggs are nice here. Very nice. Forcing Ike to approach in this manner is the best thing Yoshi can do in many situations.

6. Bairs are hard to get in, believe it or not. Well, not exactly hard, but it requires proper surveillance** of the situation. They make for a very nice punishment since they lead into other moves, but as an approach it will often be shielded/spotdodged (mostly shielded) and punished with a grab or jab.

7. Probably a third or a bit more of my KO's were nairs. Next would be upsmashes, followed by various other moves.

8. Best stage is definitely FD out of the neutrals (unless delfino is a neutral, then cg offstage to your hearts content).

9. These matches actually made me become a fan of (moderate) ledgecamping. Ledge-hopped DJC'd neutral b's made for a great way to turn the tables.

Most of the matches went to Kirk, but I personally think that he's a bit better of a player overall than me, and that's why they went the way they did, rather than it being the match-up. I'm going to say 50-50 even still. So long as Yoshi doesn't go recklessly on the offensive, (same for Ike) it's winnable with either side, no problem.

0. Thanks for your contribution, now for what I think of it.

1. CG is annoying ~_~ I think Ike can jump out before Yoshi can attack him out of the CG release, since Ike is barely chain grabbed and can even jump before getting grabbed (although that sucks when that happens). Tech chase so far though.

2. Agreed somewhat. Ike does have follow ups from his jab. I don't see Yoshi's using jab to follow up anything. Do they have follow ups?

3. Idk about this, I don't even remember ever getting pivot grabbed by PRiDE. Dash grab instead.

4. I never even trusted that.

5. Ike can DA under it. But yes they get the job done.

6. The fact Yoshi can rarely get a bair off means he loses some of his combo game. This is also proves what I said about range makes up for aerial mobility.

7. Nairs are what kills me most too. Then Usmash. fsmash is a never Uair is good though.

8. FD is too unbalanced, Why is it neutral? Halberd is much more neutral.

9. Be careful to not get dtilted. I think Kirk stood too close to the ledge. If he expected it he should jump backwards then fair. But thats just theory, whether that works or not idk until it happens.

I think Yoshi has to work a little harder than Ike, cause keeping the combos in a combo-less game makes it more difficult. But that CG is the only reason I'll ever agree Yoshi is even.