Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[HeroMystic]

Even though it won't help in the match-up, Ganon is really fun to play as.

Yeah... I picked him up one time and I owned my crew members with him. Even a Marth player who got me to 170% while he was at 20%. He tried to edgeguard me and I suicided. He was like " ".

He's pretty fun to use. XD Not as much as my main and secondaries though.

 

[XACE-K]

Yeah... I picked him up one time and I owned my crew members with him. Even a Marth player who got me to 170% while he was at 20%. He tried to edgeguard me and I suicided. He was like " ".

lol Once I started having fun with him in Brawl, I got better with him in Melee somehow.

He's pretty fun to use. XD Not as much as my main and secondaries though.

Somewhat agreed. I have more fun playing with him and some other characters than Marth whose one of my mains.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah, I know. QD screams "Gimp me!" I'm just referring to the situations were Ike can't recover without using it.

Distance wise? No such thing. Very specific moments against a very few characters? Ganondorf isn't one of them. >_>

 

[deadpoe7]

Distance wise? No such thing. Very specific moments against a very few characters? Ganondorf isn't one of them. >_>

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that even if Ike is a large distance away from the stage (say, very close to dying from the side of the level) he can still double jump and Aether to safety? I'm confloogled.

Unless you're referring to the fact that QD is only viable as a recovery move if you are above the level of the stage's ledge, in which case you would have enough air time to move towards the stage, DJ, then Aether. Is that what you meant?

 

[Kirk]

Out of Ganon's moveset, my favorite move HAS to be Dtilt.

That move is just WAY too good. I have to stop myself from yelling "DOWN TILT!" every time I use it. It's just way too amazing.

...or maybe that's just me and now everyone thinks I'm crazy.

In any event, Ganon is way too fun to play as.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying that even if Ike is a large distance away from the stage (say, very close to dying from the side of the level) he can still double jump and Aether to safety? I'm confloogled.

If you can make it back from QDing, you can Second Jump and Aether back.

 

[deadpoe7]

Oh, alright. Thanx for clarifying, Nidtendofreak. I need to tell this to my bud who uses him alot (:D)

Well darn, I guess the only Ganon-gimp we have is Tipman. But Tipman's great anyway.

 

[Kinzer]

All hail the king?

 

[fromundaman]

If you can make it back from QDing, you can Second Jump and Aether back.

Now I'm confused... do you mean that weird thing where you can hit the just below the edge with QD and jump again?

If so, the won't you still be just as easy to gimp since you still have to reach the stage via a linear path with QD?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No. What I mean is, any where off of the stage where you can successfully use Quick Draw to get back to the stage, you could have used your second jump and aether to get back.

 

[fromundaman]

Oh thanks. I guess I misread that. What if DJ + QD are necessary though? (A better question: Can Ganon launch Ike at an angle where such is his only recovery option? If so, can Ganon gimp it?)

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

QD is never necessary how hard is it to understand that?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you are DJing and QDing, you could have Aethered. There is no such thing as an angle where you must QD instead of aethering. Any possible situation where you can QD to recovery (including with a DJ), DJ and Aether would have worked and is safer. The only time Ike will QD is if:

A) It's 100% safe to do so. As in, you hit each other in the air, Ganon is sent flying to the far right, Ike is sent flying to the far left. Both must recover from their respective sides of the screen.

B) If someone is coming from below in an attempt to juggle you to death: as in, MK, Kirby, or D3. Even then, thats highly unlikely as Ike has the largest disjointed spiking hitbox with his Dair. Nobody is going to try that. >_> That isn't going to be Ganon.

C) If someone is coming from REALLY high above in an attempt to knock Ike downwards in the air. Again, unlike thanks to Ike's Uair with lingering hit frames and aethercide, but it's a possibility. That isn't going to be Ganon, seeing that Ganon can't go that far out either. If Ganon is actually attempting that, 95% chance you are in aethering the ledge range. If not, you are in aethercide range.

 

[mariofanpm12]

So what's the general consensus on this one?

 

[Kinzer]

I dunno, before we get to that, what would be a good stage to take the king to?

I want to go with...no, I have no idea.

 

[metroid1117]

Ike-Ganon is one of my personal favorite match-ups. Like Flying Dutchman said, Ganon is like a worse version of Ike; shorter-ranged, slower but limited combos, and a lot of power. Flame Choke (FC) is a very scary attack, it'll grab you through your shield and is the ultimate techchasing move. FC -> DTilt seems like a combo, but I'm not too sure; in any case, the DTilt sets you up for UAir or FAir if you airdodged on instinct. His USmash also has excellent IASA frames (better than Ike's, actually), as well as the landing lag on his aerials. Watch for the retreating short-hop BAir/DAir; if you try to move in and punish, they'll turn around with an FTilt or FSmash upon landing since it auto-cancels - it's caught me off-guard quite a few times >.>. Wizard's Boot is annoying, it's speed is fast enough that it'll catch you off-guard the first time they use it (like when you're coming back to the stage and they're on the ground), but the second time you should be ready for it. At mid-range, Ganons will space you out with FTilt or DTilt; at close-range, they'll pressure you with jab or short-hopped DAirs. DAirs are very dangerous; they have a lot of hitstun and do a lot of damage, so make sure you avoid this scenario.

Ike, however, can space the crap out of Ganon; just tip your FAirs and hold shield to activate the IASA frames so that if they try to FC you during lag, you can side-step and punish accordingly. When you get close, jab/NAir are great for chaining attacks together.

Edgeguarding, though, is really where Ike completely destroys Ganon. Ganon's recovery is insanely easy to stop as Ike; DTilt or DAir will stop any Ganon who gets predictable with FC and walk-off DAir/FAir gimp his up+B, which is also easily edgehogged. On the other hand, Ganon can't do much against Ike when he's recovering except try for a reverse UAir spike (which can be airdodged out of) or gimp Ike's Aether because he lacks disjointed hitboxes (then again, FAir might be able to cut through it, it's hitbox might be big enough).

This is one of the few match-ups where Ike has the clear upper-hand; have fun with this one .

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

it doesn't really matter lol. It's probably best to ask what stages they would take Ike too.

 

[Kinzer]

I guess since the King and I(ke) are the same, it doesn't matter does it?

 

[san.]

I would imagine that there's seldom need for Ike to approach here. A simple back jumped fair can prevent most of ganondorf's approaches, especially since he is very easy to hit with it.

Even though many of ganondorf's attacks are surprisingly quick and powerful, they're open enough to get punished by an nair if quick enough. Only a ganondorf with superior prediction, spacing, and knowledge of the matchup would even hope to win. If ganondorf gets knocked in the air, I don't even need to get close. Just jump back and fair, since there's little hope of ganon doing much. There's no point in going close here at all with Ike's range and ganon's speed.

Off the edge, as previous posters before me have gone through before, walk off dair prevents recoveries directly below. I recommend only using walk off fair at medium to higher percents to prevent any accidents. Once recovery from below is sealed, there is little hope left for ganon, since his forward B can be tilted. As far as I know, ganondorf can't do much with edgeguarding Ike, since there's a higher chance of ganon getting gimped instead.

Looking out for are his deceptively quick tilts, his down air, fsmash, quick dash attack, and forward B are a must.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

of course it matters but you could just pick a neutral that your comfortable with and have a good advantage on him.

 

[Sharky]

oh, boo. Kirk didn't post about Yoshi. >.<

Can't wait to see the write-up, twas fun talking with you guys. =D

 

[A2ZOMG]

I agree with FD that Ike and Ganon are similar characters, but I think it's a pretty close matchup.

Ike has a better Jab, but unfortunately for him, it's pretty much his only viable out of shield tactic, meaning it will get stale in this matchup. Ike also has a sword, meaning he's able to hit Ganon's hand or foot and make him bleed. =/

Ganon has more options to choose from out of shield, and they are all capable of killing at moderately high percents.

80% of this matchup is punish out of shield and baited approaches. Seriously.

Ganondorf has better edgeguarding, but it doesn't work well for gimping Ike, although I do think a well timed Up-B can grab Ike out of his own. It's not hard to meteor Ganondorf though because his recovery is pretty **** predictable.

Anyhow, Ganon pretty much wins slightly in terms of KO moves and out of shield options in this matchup, but Ike wins a bit more in edgeguarding, which matters more.

I'd say 55/45 or 6/4 Ike's favor.

 

[Kinzer]

Ike has a better Jab, but unfortunately for him, it's pretty much his only viable out of shield tactic, meaning it will get stale in this matchup. Ike also has a sword, meaning he's able to hit Ganon's hand or foot and make him bleed. =/

If jab isn't already stall, you're not playing Ike right or something...

 

[SaltyKracka]

I respectfully suggest that this image be used to represent the awesomeness that is Ganondorf, as it is much better than the other two up.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

No need for that Salty ^. Just wait till the Ike users see which picture I put up for them.

 

[SaltyKracka]

No need for that Salty ^. Just wait till the Ike users see which picture I put up for them.

Ray.....just stop being...you. Just stop.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ray.....just stop being...you. Just stop.

Care to explain what you mean by that..?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Care to explain what you mean by that..?

You posted a totally unnecessary thread, made fun of the Ike boards instead of just asking for them to change the picture for Ganon politely, and....haven't exactly made the best impression here.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You posted a totally unnecessary thread, made fun of the Ike boards instead of just asking for them to change the picture for Ganon politely, and....haven't exactly made the best impression here.

Well, then excuse me for being me. This is the way I deal with things, if you don't like it, that's your problem.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Light. Keep the first picture up.

Anyhow, I would avoid taking Ganondorf to Pirate Ship. He's one of the few who could potentially have a better water spiking game then Ike, due to the greater horizontal length of his Dair hitbox.

For Neutrals, I'm fairly sure which one doesn't really matter. Nobody has projectiles in this match-up.

For CPs.......the standard Cornelia(sp?) or Green Greens.

 

[HeroMystic]

Pick battlefield for neutrals. Ike can make better use of platforms than ganondorf does.

CP stages should probably be Lylat Cruise. Avoid Brinstar and Norfair since he can use Side-B off-stage and not die from it (but you do).

And lol @ Ganon mains being up-tight about joke pics.

 

[MysticKenji]

Ganon's recovery epic fails on the Cruises (Lylat and Rainbow) so take him to those maps.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

If jab isn't already stall, you're not playing Ike right or something...

A2Zomg said "stale", not "stall".

Ike's Jab is going to lose a whole lot of it's power during this match-up, it won't be a viable kill move.

And lol @ Ganon mains being up-tight about joke pics.

Last I checked, Nidtendofreak didn't classify as a Ganon main.

 

[Kinzer]

You should keep that first pic up, that was awesome.

It's too bad my PoS comp won't completely upload to other pic just to see how it is.

Edit:

^^

I can't type perfect grammar for my life, I meant stale.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ganon's recovery epic fails on the Cruises (Lylat and Rainbow) so take him to those maps.

Considering that his recovery is less linear than Ike's, and he has a much, MUCH faster air game, taking him to either of the Cruises is a bad idea.

For that matter, Ike's best CP against Ganondorf is probably, believe it or not, BF. He loves Corneria almost as much as Ike does, and Green Greens isn't bad for him either. He really is very similar to Ike in this aspect.

 

[fromundaman]

Just a quick note: Ganon's UpB can in fact grab Ike out of Aether before he reaches for his sword (AKA during the SA frames).

Otherwise, I pretty much agree with all that's been said so far. Slight advantage for Ike, and a fun match all around.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Last I checked, Nidtendofreak didn't classify as a Ganon main.

Last I checked, I wasn't having a small hissy fit over a picture. >_>

And Ike's don't use jabs as a killing move. We use it as a damage racker and a way to flow in killing moves more easily.

 

[XACE-K]

For that matter, Ike's best CP against Ganondorf is probably, believe it or not, BF. He loves Corneria almost as much as Ike does, and Green Greens isn't bad for him either. He really is very similar to Ike in this aspect.

Not to mention some other things they're both similar.

Now, I wouldn't be suprised if Ike and Ganon are somehow related.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Not to mention some other things they're both similar.

Now, I wouldn't be suprised if Ike and Ganon are somehow related.

Of course they're related. They're both MANLY.

 

[XACE-K]

Of course they're related. They're both MANLY.

True but think about it.

Both are powerful, both are slow whether it may be running or walking. Ganon's old while Ike's young. Both can use swords (but Ganon prefers not to). *insert other dumb reasons here*

And that's why Ganon is Ike's father and Marth is the mother.