Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[ChronoPenguin]

Wait...im sorry Ike is Gimping Yoshi?

I'm no pro, and at times I would not even say im good.

But this makes very little sense.
Unless Yoshi was hit at an angle and distance where he Can only grab the ledge, and thats with using Egg Toss and the Double Jump...
Well then, that goes for most characters, hit them at the worst possible angle.

Now practical wise where Yoshi would normally be getting hit towards.... which is Diagonally upwards towards the corners if DI permits.
Ike will have trouble Gimping.

If yoshi trys to recover underneath, all he needs to do is through an egg upwards to Stop Ike, and then DJAD.

He may not even need to use the egg period and just DJAD.

If Yoshi is recovering from up high, he can Down Special to the ledge instead of actually landing on the stage, or floating all the way down to the ledge.

And, if an Ike spaces to hit Yoshi above him, Yoshi just using egg toss can screw up your spacing, and cause you to miss.

What Yoshi needs to do depends on where he's hit, and since he will probably be recovering from above the stage, and not below it in Ikes case (it's not impossible, its just likely from my stand point)
He's generally at his least "gimpable" in terms of what Ike can do.
Below the stage, he can still be hard for Ike to Gimp, but not as much IMO then above the stage.
As above the stage he has more moves he can do, and more evasive options in general.

For Ike it's not about Gimping Yoshi, it's just WTFblasting him to the blast zone so he dies.
Since well I have a cousin who plays Ike (and so I really only have 1 experience)...and gimping's never been a problem. Sure if I'm careless...but seriously >.>



>.> Uh.....I think it's neutral.
Ike hits hard, but Yoshi well...is faster in general.
Yoshi recovers easier, but Ike last longer since Yoshi lacks safe kill moves.

Don't take my word for it though.I'm a ******.

 

[Kirk]

But...I like kittens...

Please don't kill the kittens...

 

[Naucitos]

For Ike it's not about Gimping Yoshi, it's just WTFblasting him to the blast zone so he dies.

QFT. Yoshi would have the advantage if not for how much of an uphill battle it is to actually KILL him.

Yoshi combos well, but ike doesen't NEED to combo well, because he just dominates anything he hits.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

>.> Uh.....I think it's neutral.
Ike hits hard, but Yoshi well...is faster in general.
Yoshi recovers easier, but Ike last longer since Yoshi lacks safe kill moves.

Don't take my word for it though.I'm a ******.

Most people answer with numbers from here but you know this thread doesn't use them.

I have to say that if yagami just threw out his opinion in the match up numbers they would actually work. Sorry but it's IMHO

 

[Snowstalker]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

 

[Kinzer]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

"Are you kidding me?!" -Snake.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

like I said thats yagami and like doom dragon. They are the 2 Ike mains that have the worst sense of match up ratios in the world.

Even so your being stupid since this thread doesn't have much stuff on it being advantage or disadvantage.

 

[Wyvern-x]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

Things like this make me feel like bumping my matchup chart back to the first page.

 

[Naucitos]

I'd actually agree that its either neutral or slight advantage for Ike, but the numbers really don't matter much.

 

[Kirk]

As long as the kittens are safe.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm more of a hedgehog person really.

 

[SaltyKracka]

As long as the kittens are safe.

Yes, we can't let anybody hurt the kitties. At all. Because if there were no kitties, then there would be no Caturday. And a world without Caturday wouldn't be worth living in.

 

[HeroMystic]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

Talk about 2 months ago.

And besides:

Even so your being stupid since this thread doesn't have much stuff on it being advantage or disadvantage.

 

[Kinzer]

Please tell me you aren't referring to 4Chan.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

Eh? Say what? News to me.

And what can Yoshi do on Corelia besides throw eggs? How about Green Greens?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Please tell me you aren't referring to 4Chan.

Well, not quite. I just love cats. So very much. Hell, I even have six of 'em. And Caturday pics usually cause me to laugh as well.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

That was like 3 months ago. And didn't they say it was even?

Spoiler

Saying Ike is even with MK Snake is ******** too. but still not as bad.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Seeing how fast that got shot down, it was obvious that it was only a few confused people, and not the whole board. You claiming you haven't seeing crazy ratios on your boards?

 

[XACE-K]

No matter how much evidence we have to prove that this is even, the Ikes WILL put it as their advantage. They think they beat MK AND Snake!

You sir are an idiot.

 

[Naucitos]

Yeah, thats a pretty pointless thread XD

 

[YagamiLight]

like I said thats yagami and like doom dragon. They are the 2 Ike mains that have the worst sense of match up ratios in the world.

Are you planning to take a stab at me every chance you get? Because I must admit it is rather frustrating.

Secondly, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you not agree with Umbreon when he said MK and Ike were about even? You seem to have changed your mind after the MK is broken bandwagon started rolling, however.

I don't see what's particularly wrong with saying that Ike slightly loses to Meta Knight and is about neutral with Snake, in any case.

 

[XACE-K]

Are you planning to take a stab at me every chance you get? Because I must admit it is rather frustrating.

Secondly, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you not agree with Umbreon when he said MK and Ike were about even? You seem to have changed your mind after the MK is broken bandwagon started rolling, however.

I don't see what's particularly wrong with saying that Ike slightly loses to Meta Knight and is about neutral with Snake, in any case.

I think he said that the MK match-up is easier than most people thnk but Ike still has a disadvantage.

As for Snake, it seems even to me but we should discuss ratios at the end of this when all the match-up discussions are done.

 

[Mmac]

Eh? Say what? News to me.

And what can Yoshi do on Corelia besides throw eggs? How about Green Greens?

Let me see, The stage is mostly flat which give is much opportunities to Chaingrab to Edgeguard, where the small blast zones come into play, and I think he can infinite him on the fin, If I can remember.....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Are you planning to take a stab at me every chance you get? Because I must admit it is rather frustrating.

Secondly, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you not agree with Umbreon when he said MK and Ike were about even? You seem to have changed your mind after the MK is broken bandwagon started rolling, however.

I don't see what's particularly wrong with saying that Ike slightly loses to Meta Knight and is about neutral with Snake, in any case.

I think I take a stab at everyone every chance I get. I've done it to M2K idk why you would be a special case where I don't.

I actually did agree that it would be better possibly 55-45 (which isn't neutral IMO) but that was for about a day. After that kirk set me strait (very little match up experience at that time) and after hobo I just started posting in the MK ban thread with nothing but results. & data. Eventually I chose that MK should be banned on that.

Whats wrong is actually saying it lol. I mean you can say it all you want but its wrong because its false.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think I take a stab at everyone every chance I get. I've done it to M2K idk why you would be a special case where I don't.

Very well. (Though I take offense to it being said that I have the worst sense of match-up ratios in the world)

I actually did agree that it would be better possibly 55-45 (which isn't neutral IMO) but that was for about a day. After that kirk set me strait (very little match up experience at that time) and after hobo I just started posting in the MK ban thread with nothing but results. & data. Eventually I chose that MK should be banned on that.

The 45 to 55 range is more or less accepted as close to neutral. Regardless, how Ike does in the match is most certainly up for debate.

Whats wrong is actually saying it lol. I mean you can say it all you want but its wrong because its false.

People here seem to generally agree upon the fact that Snake is close to equal, so I don't really see that as an issue.

Meta Knight is, as I said, most certainly debateable. Ike certainly does well enough in the match-up, so claims like 30-70 or 35-65 are rather ludicrous.

Since this match-up numbers ratio issue is popping up more and more, I'm going to have to think of a solution of sorts. Until then, just postpone the numbers issue and just stick to Yoshi.

 

[Kimchi]

Um, can Yoshi really infinite on Corneria? And Corneria is a fairly hard place to CG in my own personal opinion because of the curve.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Very well. (Though I take offense to it being said that I have the worst sense of match-up ratios in the world)



The 45 to 55 range is more or less accepted as close to neutral. Regardless, how Ike does in the match is most certainly up for debate.



People here seem to generally agree upon the fact that Snake is close to equal, so I don't really see that as an issue.

Meta Knight is, as I said, most certainly debateable. Ike certainly does well enough in the match-up, so claims like 30-70 or 35-65 are rather ludicrous.

Since this match-up numbers ratio issue is popping up more and more, I'm going to have to think of a solution of sorts. Until then, just postpone the numbers issue and just stick to Yoshi.

Sorry but I'm not a guy that postpone things, if I see something I disagree with I debate it.

I honestly don't believe that the MK match up is debate able. Everyone who uses Ike should know that he is a punisher and everyone should know that MK is the hardest character to punish. 65-35 actually sounds very reasonable to me and I see no way around it. we do what out range him and out power him? MKs U air actually allows him to live as much as Ike because of how fast it comes out. MK can gimp Ike once he is off the stage till the end of time. and MK builds up damage faster than Ike. We also have no way of actually counter picking him, especially not corneria because who builds up damage faster? who has safer kill moves? who has better fin tricks in that stage?

The answer to all of that is MK.


Who actually thinks that its a nuetral to snake anyways as well?

I say you have the worst sense of match up ratios in the Ike boards (there aren't many of us anyways like 15-20 I think). You labeled DDD as 65-35, its going to take quite a bit to change my mind.

edit: a possible solution to the ratios would be to make it so that only the current character's numbers can be discussed until we're done with him. If people want to discuss the other match up #s then they have to wait for the period of time when your being lazy and we're bored.

I'm pretty sure that the Ike boards would respect this and just ignore people trying to argue them. In case to many people start doing it when can just say after 3 times everyone PMs them a quote that has the rule on in it =).

 

[Kinzer]

Y'all wanna take this to PMs or something, we really should stick to Yoshi.

 

[YagamiLight]

Sorry but I'm not a guy that postpone things, if I see something I disagree with I debate it.

I honestly don't believe that the MK match up is debate able. Everyone who uses Ike should know that he is a punisher and everyone should know that MK is the hardest character to punish. 65-35 actually sounds very reasonable to me and I see no way around it. we do what out range him and out power him? MKs U air actually allows him to live as much as Ike because of how fast it comes out. MK can gimp Ike once he is off the stage till the end of time. and MK builds up damage faster than Ike. We also have no way of actually counter picking him, especially not corneria because who builds up damage faster? who has safer kill moves? who has better fin tricks in that stage?

The answer to all of that is MK.


Who actually thinks that its a nuetral to snake anyways as well?

I say you have the worst sense of match up ratios in the Ike boards (there aren't many of us anyways like 15-20 I think). You labeled DDD as 65-35, its going to take quite a bit to change my mind.

Very well, don't postpone it.

You are correct, Ike is mainly a punisher. What you did not state is that Ike is also a zoner, a spacer. You are underestimating what effect drastically outranging and drastically overpowering MK can have. MK's Up Air lets him regain control quickly, yes, but you do realize the won't stop him from dying early to Ike's powerful attacks, right? MK can gimp Ike, of course. Everyone can, doesn't make it an advantage for the opponent instantly.

Corneria not cutting it? Pick Pirate Ship. By removing the gimp aspect and adding water combat (An area in which Ike is retardedly good), you've made the match-up easier. And Ike's Fair and Ftilt are safer killers when spaced than MK's Down Smash.

As for the Snake comment, Hero and Xace have said it within the last few pages.

And now for Dedede, what does he have over Ike? The ability to gimp him (Ike can spike him in return mind you) and a chaingrab that (If you factor in two fresh Dthrows and a Fthrow) does 28% when grabbed in the center of final destination. Ike can do 16% if Dedede whiffs a grab and gets jabbed in exchange. When you think about it, Dedede is one of Ike's worse off matches but is certainly not terrible.


Edit:
edit: a possible solution to the ratios would be to make it so that only the current character's numbers can be discussed until we're done with him. If people want to discuss the other match up #s then they have to wait for the period of time when your being lazy and we're bored.

I'm pretty sure that the Ike boards would respect this and just ignore people trying to argue them. In case to many people start doing it when can just say after 3 times everyone PMs them a quote that has the rule on in it =).

I soundly agree with that proposal, nicely done. We'll discuss the remaining numbers along with the characters, and we'll take a break right after Yoshi to discuss the previous 20 characters. Sound good?

I also agree with spamming PM inboxes of rule violators.

So, since we may as well start the numbers now, I say that Yoshi is either:

55-45 Ike's favor or 60-40 Ike's favor

It's better than neutral, but it's not really superbad.

 

[Sharky]

Indeed...he's always like that. xD

This weekend I'll finally get to play a Yoshi offline...so that will be fun for sure. Not to mention seeing my good friend for the first time in 7 months.

*is excited*

Also, moreso on topic, are you sure Ike is CG-able? Because in all my matches with Yoshis, I've always been able to jump out before they could regrab. Or are they just doing it wrong? :o

Indeed...I am always like that. =P

So yeah, eggs are good to an extent, though I wouldn't trust them at anything shorter than mid-long range unless you know what he's gonna do. Otherwise, Ike can approach and get something on you, most likely (I know Kirk will.) Ike's a tough one, I'll admit. I honestly don't have much to say at the moment, though. I haven't played a good Ike in aaaaages other than online, and even that was a long time ago. Like Kirk said, I'll be playing plenty with him this weekend, so we shall see what we shall see. In the meantime, you guys stay on Yoshi til then, quit changing the subject lol (unless it's about kittens, then it's AOK. XD)

Current opinion: 50/50 EVEN

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Very well, don't postpone it.

You are correct, Ike is mainly a punisher. What you did not state is that Ike is also a zoner, a spacer. You are underestimating what effect drastically outranging and drastically overpowering MK can have. MK's Up Air lets him regain control quickly, yes, but you do realize the won't stop him from dying early to Ike's powerful attacks, right? MK can gimp Ike, of course. Everyone can, doesn't make it an advantage for the opponent instantly.

Corneria not cutting it? Pick Pirate Ship. By removing the gimp aspect and adding water combat (An area in which Ike is retardedly good), you've made the match-up easier. And Ike's Fair and Ftilt are safer killers when spaced than MK's Down Smash.

As for the Snake comment, Hero and Xace have said it within the last few pages.

Ike maybe a spacer but not a zoner. He doesn't actually have an area to keep his opponents in side his range and out side of his. Every move Ike has sends them flying even at low percents which only allows to get a few hits in (talking about jab) and then you can't reach them.

The Uair actually does stop him from dieing early from attacks. It's been proven that they allow you to live longer and OS actually survived a Snake U air at 182% I know I've lived at these percents even against powerful attacks with MK.

MK doesn't just gimp Ike he gimps him much worse than any one else can. He could actually just float a bit away from the ledge and spam what ever aerial he feels like. If you try to reverse aether to protect your self a bit all he has to do is shuttle loop trough it.

MK is a much better zoner than Ike in fact once he is inside the Fair range there is pretty much nothing that Ike can do to get him out. What are you going to do jab? Well guess what MK's range isn't exactly crappy so you shouldn't say "drastically out ranging" MK has more range than marth on average.

I don't believe that Pirate ship removes the gimping possibility. If MK gets you off the stage he can just send you even further trough his WoP. Once you land in the water he can juggle you down towards the end of the stage with his Dair or use it to stage spike.

Fair is not a killer. That move pretty much only kills after you die and it comes back fresh. I don't even believe that these moves are safe against MK. All he has to do is drop a shield and tornado because the moves Ike has against this are either to slow or behind him which is not where MK is standing if your using an Fair or Ftilt. Dsmash isn't MK's safe killer its Fsmash. You can not punish this move it is safe upon shield. Shuttle loop is actually very safe as well especially against Ike he just throw you off the stage and uses it to own you.

MK doesn't fall behind in range, spacing, stages, killing, and actually excels in many things against Ike.

And now for Dedede, what does he have over Ike? The ability to gimp him (Ike can spike him in return mind you) and a chaingrab that (If you factor in two fresh Dthrows and a Fthrow) does 28% when grabbed in the center of final destination. Ike can do 16% if Dedede whiffs a grab and gets jabbed in exchange. When you think about it, Dedede is one of Ike's worse off matches but is certainly not terrible.

God I shouldn't even have to answer this. I'm going to keep it simple Ike has no way to approach DDD safely. Every move he has can be grabbed upon shield. with someone heavier, stronger, and who has more range than us trading 28% for 16% is a disadvantage btw.

I'll go ahead and argue the snake match up not being even as well if you want to.

edit: I want to go to new york =( sounds so fun maybe I'll go study there one year. ( and flunk out because of smash)

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike maybe a spacer but not a zoner. He doesn't actually have an area to keep his opponents in side his range and out side of his. Every move Ike has sends them flying even at low percents which only allows to get a few hits in (talking about jab) and then you can't reach them.


The Uair actually does stop him from dieing early from attacks. It's been proven that they allow you to live longer and OS actually survived a Snake U air at 182% I know I've lived at these percents even against powerful attacks with MK.


MK doesn't just gimp Ike he gimps him much worse than any one else can. He could actually just float a bit away from the ledge and spam what ever aerial he feels like. If you try to reverse aether to protect your self a bit all he has to do is shuttle loop trough it.



MK is a much better zoner than Ike in fact once he is inside the Fair range there is pretty much nothing that Ike can do to get him out. What are you going to do jab? Well guess what MK's range isn't exactly crappy so you shouldn't say "drastically out ranging" MK has more range than marth on average.

I don't believe that Pirate ship removes the gimping possibility. If MK gets you off the stage he can just send you even further trough his WoP. Once you land in the water he can juggle you down towards the end of the stage with his Dair or use it to stage spike.

Fair is not a killer. That move pretty much only kills after you die and it comes back fresh. I don't even believe that these moves are safe against MK. All he has to do is drop a shield and tornado because the moves Ike has against this are either to slow or behind him which is not where MK is standing if your using an Fair or Ftilt. Dsmash isn't MK's safe killer its Fsmash. You can not punish this move it is safe upon shield. Shuttle loop is actually very safe as well especially against Ike he just throw you off the stage and uses it to own you.

MK doesn't fall behind in range, spacing, stages, killing, and actually excels in many things against Ike.



God I shouldn't even have to answer this. I'm going to keep it simple Ike has no way to approach DDD safely. Every move he has can be grabbed upon shield. with someone heavier, stronger, and who has more range than us trading 28% for 16% is a disadvantage btw.

I'll go ahead and argue the snake match up not being even as well if you want to.

On the whole, you're correct. Nair is, however, useful for the purpose you stated at low percents.

I know that using fast aerials will allow you to survive longer. I have trouble believing that Meta Knight can survive one of the most powerful up aerials in the game at 182%. It's just not possible, could I get some sort of proof?

I am well aware of the extent to which Meta Knight can gimp Ike, and I'm sure most people are. You can't deny, however, that if Ike gets the Aether off near the edge he's safe. Plus MK actually has to get heavy Ike off the stage in the first place, don't forget that.

MK has more grounded horizontal range than Marth on average. Marth still wins out in aerial horizontal and in all forms of vertical range. Ike has around 3 (4 if you count counter) "get out of here" moves. The jab, nair and his grab. Those should be suitable enough to keep MK out of Ike's zone.

Unlike FD offstage combat, where MK dominates, here MK is running the extreme risk of being Aethered or Daired. Ike can travel with impunity, even if MK is hovering around. He can go in an direction he wishes and spike Meta Knight for the early kill. Meta Knight loses a lot of chase potential once you add in the water.


Fair kills late, yeah, point accepted. But I must correct you when you say these moves aren't safe. Ike can act by the 22nd frame after Fair, as I'm sure you know. It takes 7 frames for MK to drop the shield. That leaves 1/4 of a second for him to activate the tornado, let the tornado animation take place and then he has to bring it over to Ike who is a considerable distance away due to the range of Fair and Ftilt. No, it's not punishable in that scenario. There's a little problem with Fsmash, even if it is safe on shield: It's slow. I'm not sure on the frame count, but not only does Ike outrange it with some moves, but he may even outspeed it with counter (Actually he probably does). Ike outranges Shuttle loops with Fair and Bair, by the way, plus the puts MK in a predictable path.

MK loses in range, spacing and killing. He has the stage advantage and numerous other things, but don't try to reduce Ike's giant advantages to mere tokens.


Dedede can't grab spaced Fairs or Ftilts, only Olimar can. Dedede is heavier, yes, though horizontal death wise they are more or less the same. Ike is stronger than Dedede is (Ike is actually the strongest in the game). Dedede's moves lack the consistent strength of Ike's, though his Down B and Forward Smash are indeed very strong. And I am aware that trading 28% for 16% is a disadvantage. Why, that's what I'm claiming that the whole match-up is: A solid disadvantage, 35-65. Not some "slight", "minor" things, a disadvantage. I'd assumed we could agree on that.

I can pretty much theorize the possible arguments, so there's no real need to, we'll get to snake in a bit.

Now post any reply you want as I try to complete my homework so we can debate some more!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

don't use color next time just number things in the order that arguments are posted this makes it harder to reply to your posts.

edit: **** it to late now. I'll make a new post of the stuff

 

[YagamiLight]

don't use color next time just number things in the order that arguments are posted this makes it harder to reply to your posts.

Edited for your convenience.

 

[Sharky]

Wow, you guys really don't know how to stay on topic, do you? >.>

 

[SaltyKracka]

Wow, you guys really don't know how to stay on topic, do you? >.>

Not much of a topic to stay on. Just about everybody agrees that the matchup is neutral to slightly in Ike's favor. Yoshi's a fairly simple character, as well. The best thing to do is to outzone him, stay out of the way of his eggs, avoid being grabbed, and pick BF.

 

[HeroMystic]

We have no sympathy for staying on topic.

EDIT: About Snake, remember I was a ****** back then. Even though it was pretty accurate, I left out a lot of details.

 

[YagamiLight]

Wow, you guys really don't know how to stay on topic, do you? >.>

On topic? We're the Ike boards, we're never on topic.

We have no sympathy for staying on topic.

EDIT: About Snake, remember I was a ****** back then. Even though it was pretty accurate, I left out a lot of details.

You mentioned that the match was "pretty close" a few days ago I believe but let's just leave Snake for later.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1. Nair doesn't always lead to other moves. I know grabs can wif after them and with good DI and SDI it maybe possible to avoid the jab.

2. I will ask but I see no reason to doubt it.

3. no Ike is not safe once he gets aether in. Sorry but this just makes you sound very incompetent. Ike is very vulnerable from the back and with the jumping king he is pretty much open all the time. This is why I said the reverse aether if you get past MK's edge guarding. This is not safe either how ever because MK can just shuttle loop trough it. Getting Ike off the stage isn't hard please don't act like it is. MK has no problem piling up damage and no problem hitting with his fast strong smash attacks.

4. Jab is the only move fast enough to get MK out of his range since he has many many many moves that come out under 10 frames. Jab doesn't reach MKs space. Seriously with cold hard facts Ike has nothing to get MK out once he is in. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185726&highlight=frame

5. MK does not loose chase potential in the water in fact his dair becomes godly. dair sends you down and with MK's multiple jumps he can just hit you into the water jump hit you back in and keep doing this little by little till the blast zone. This is by no means a bad stage for MK and he does not fall behind in here.

6. It takes 4 frames to drop the shield and 0 if you PS. After this 1/4th of a second is long enough for MK to start up his tornado and at this distance Ike has nothing to protect him self against tornado except the shield. If the tornado hits at 0 it can combo into another one meaning you've just taken about 40%. Fine you can counter the smash attack if you aren't human and don't add the 6 frame reaction time at tournament level play. It doesn't matter if Ike out ranges MK's strong attacks because MK won't be use them out side of MK's range. If MK is inside Ike's Fair range he is in position to use any of these attacks and Ike can do nothing but shield. His up B is 1 frame slower than Ike's jab and it out ranges it tell me how to punish this when he is in a position to use it.

7. Ike doesn't have giant advantages they really are mere tokens.

DDD: yes he can grab spaced Fairs and Ftilts. No one kills heavies horizontally thats how you survive over 200%. DDD has a much better recovery than Ike and he has a very easy way of gimping Ike's Ftilt and incase your brain dies momentarily waddle Ds for QD. He Also has a WoP on Ike to get low percent kills.

 

[HeroMystic]

You mentioned that the match was "pretty close" a few days ago I believe but let's just leave Snake for later.

*uses search function*

Ah, right. I did, and I still believe that the match is pretty close. Wouldn't say complete neutral though.

So ah, if we're going back in time on this, how will we continue the match-ups? Postpone?