Mmac
Smash Lord
Actually I don't think Battlefield would work as well as you like. Ike will be in major trouble if he gets stuck on a platform.
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As will Yoshi. Platfroms suck for everyone, dude.Actually I don't think Battlefield would work as well as you like. Ike will be in major trouble if he gets stuck on a platform.
It's not just you...is it me or did everyone after marth just get deleted?
It's looking like that to meis it me or did everyone after marth just get deleted?
1. Nair doesn't always lead to other moves. I know grabs can wif after them and with good DI and SDI it maybe possible to avoid the jab.
2. I will ask but I see no reason to doubt it.
3. no Ike is not safe once he gets aether in. Sorry but this just makes you sound very incompetent. Ike is very vulnerable from the back and with the jumping king he is pretty much open all the time. This is why I said the reverse aether if you get past MK's edge guarding. This is not safe either how ever because MK can just shuttle loop trough it. Getting Ike off the stage isn't hard please don't act like it is. MK has no problem piling up damage and no problem hitting with his fast strong smash attacks.
4. Jab is the only move fast enough to get MK out of his range since he has many many many moves that come out under 10 frames. Jab doesn't reach MKs space. Seriously with cold hard facts Ike has nothing to get MK out once he is in. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185726&highlight=frame
5. MK does not loose chase potential in the water in fact his dair becomes godly. dair sends you down and with MK's multiple jumps he can just hit you into the water jump hit you back in and keep doing this little by little till the blast zone. This is by no means a bad stage for MK and he does not fall behind in here.
6. It takes 4 frames to drop the shield and 0 if you PS. After this 1/4th of a second is long enough for MK to start up his tornado and at this distance Ike has nothing to protect him self against tornado except the shield. If the tornado hits at 0 it can combo into another one meaning you've just taken about 40%. Fine you can counter the smash attack if you aren't human and don't add the 6 frame reaction time at tournament level play. It doesn't matter if Ike out ranges MK's strong attacks because MK won't be use them out side of MK's range. If MK is inside Ike's Fair range he is in position to use any of these attacks and Ike can do nothing but shield. His up B is 1 frame slower than Ike's jab and it out ranges it tell me how to punish this when he is in a position to use it.
7. Ike doesn't have giant advantages they really are mere tokens.
DDD: yes he can grab spaced Fairs and Ftilts. No one kills heavies horizontally thats how you survive over 200%. DDD has a much better recovery than Ike and he has a very easy way of gimping Ike's Ftilt and incase your brain dies momentarily waddle Ds for QD. He Also has a WoP on Ike to get low percent kills.
Fun fact: Yoshi LOVES platforms.As will Yoshi. Platfroms suck for everyone, dude.
1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.1) Nair won't always do the job, but when it works it's great. Grabs can whiff, yes, but they generally won't. Add to that the new Air Release to DA to send MK quite a bit away from you, so you're back to square 1, except now Meta Knight has more damage. And as for SDIing jabs, it's only really possible out of a grab release. The timing is just practically impossible in normal combat.
3) I guess that did make me look a bit incompetent. No, he's not instantly safe. Reverse Aether and Aether regular as well as recovering low all have their drawback, none of those are instant "I used Aether I'm back on, YES!". They are harder to block than your standard recovery move, so Ike has an increased chance of making it back on, at any rate. If he's high above the stagish then QD might actually work as well. It's not like Ike is dead the moment he's off the stage. And I agree that it's not too hard for MK to get a character off the stage, but you make it sound like he does it to a spacer and a heavy like Ike effortlessly.
4) Yeah, I've seen the topic, good stuff. I'm not denying that MK is ridiculously fast, who is? The point is, however, that the jab is good enough for what Ike wants to do, inflict damage and reset the positions. Meta Knight can't always optimize his position, remember that.
5) The stage is much better for Ike that it is for MK, however. Ike has several things he can do out of the water and each of those can result in major pain for Meta Knight.
6) Ike angles the shield upward towards the tornado, the tornado ends, Ike can act. Problem solved. The tornado severely depletes after the first use, so the major damage danger is gone. As for the up B, if he uses it, you shield it, then he is on a very predictable path with only a glide attack stopping him from being punished, and even that won't always help.
7) Range? Power? Priority? If Ike had only one of those on MK I wouldn't be arguing here. But he can consistently utilize his options, and if the best range and power in the game aren't worth anything here then we're looking at the match the wrong way.
D3: I checked, Ftilt and Fair aren't shieldgrabbable. He can drop the shield and attempt a dashgrab, but this can lead to Dedede being jabbed. Most characters don't kill heavies off the sides. Note that this is Ike we are talking about, not Sheik or Toon Link. You can expect to kill Dedede off the side easily enough. And as for the recovery, Ike is probably the best character to choose to punish King Dedede's recovery, when you think about it. Waddle Dees kill QD if you're brain dead enough to use Quick Draw when he can easily punish it and gimp it, yes. If you recover low, I believe you can avoid Ftilt, but even if you can't, take the hit, DI upwards and QD to the ledge. Simple.
Edit: Haha, it randomly deleted most of the topic. If I hadn't backed it up recently, I would be truly pissed. I'll have to reinsert Luigi, Ike and the two pictures later, sadly. That deletion was kind of gay.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203904Glad to see you backed up most of the stuff.
By the way, I think another topic for match-up ratios is needed. As much as I love to talk about numbers (not really), I think it would hinder this thread if we keep going back and forth without consistency. That way we don't fill up this thread with unrelated nonsense of other characters and we don't have to wait for "Writer's Block" moments.
In other news, Ike is a good counterpick against bad Marios.
Come to the Sonic boards and then tell me how sophisticated the Ikenians are. XDOn topic? We're the Ike boards, we're never on topic.
No, just personal experience from last night. I was beaten by a rather subpar Mario a few hours ago (I SUCK at dittos, whether it be Mario or Ike. Just way too weird and boring for me.), then I switched to Ike, spaced the hell out of him, and kindly 2-stocked (he got a lucky cape) him in under 2 minutes.Hero: Did I miss something back at the Marty-O boards?
Yoshi's lack of ranged moves doesnt help him much vs ike's huge sword. Also, yoshi isnt a speed demon either. I think yoshis best thing is that its hard to edgeguard him, thanks to his super armor frames on the jump. This is in ike's favor though. The main problem I see for ike is a yoshi that is good at egg tossing could mess up ikes recovery.
This is definately nowhere better than neutral or 45:55: yoshi, 6:4 is definately out, 45:55 our favor is pushing itYou can egg bomb ike while yoshi recovers so it's really easy to recover against ike
ike smashes are easy to counter just because of slow speed in them
Yoshi bomb is suicide in this matchup, and will just get Uaired, unless you mean egg toss? And ikes smashes are still devastating
a great ike users does killing with tilts and and grabs most of the time
renegade has been successful because of that IMO
yoshi has a proyectile and can CG ike
air game obviously in yoshi's favor
ground game can go either way
though yoshi can get out of ike's infinite jab combo if you spot dodge properly or sometimes a lucky jab
CG isn't THAT useful, and air game isn't obviously in yoshi's favor when ikes fair outranges everything. What infinite jab combo are you talking about?
i see this 55:45 or possibly 6:4 for yoshi
just because as someone said
it is a bit difficult killing ike because he is heavy
Not necessarily bad players, just players that play the same character as me. I suck at dittos, and Mario players that aren't from the boards thinks that Ike is easy pickings.edit: yoshi loves being on platforms? cause Ike loves them to if hes under neath your open to so many moves including Fsmash.
hero why would you need counter picks against bad players?
I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?Direct DownB = Death
Rising Hit DownB = Death to Ike
he's just stating when it hits. If he misses, he's eating a ftilt though.I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?
yes i meant egg tossThis is definately nowhere better than neutral or 45:55: yoshi, 6:4 is definately out, 45:55 our favor is pushing it
The Rising Hit is 4 Framed and not laggy at all.I"m not quite sure I understand. How the hell is Yoshi going to hit Ike with that laggy (it's laggier than Ike's tilts, fer Cripe's sake) move?
I'm pretty sure you can't airdodge it (wanna frame test that, kirk?), though you can SDI out if you're close to the far end of the hitbox. Granted, there isn't much of a window to see the move coming to SDI in the first place, so it's luck, really.If used on the ground and are right next to your opponent, the Yoshi Bomb(Down-B) will pop your opponent upwards, right in place for the kill hit of the move coming down. It's also much stronger if used on the ground as opposed to starting it in the air.
Though I'm unsure if there is time to Air Dodge inbetween or DI out of the kill hit.
It's also asking to get jabbed. Seriously, it has NO range.The Rising Hit is 4 Framed and not laggy at all.
Our air games are good in different ways. You've got reach, we've got speed (Yoshi has THE fastest horizontal air speed in the game, plus fast aerials other than fair). I just think speed is better. =)-_- people need to stop doubting Ike's air game. 4th longest reach in the air is not something bad you know... (Samus, Link, ZZS beat Ike in air range)
Off topic:
What makes me more mad is when people dismiss Ike since he's "too slow" They need to learn how Ike is played. IMO Ike is only predicting and punishing. Meaning you need some really good mind games to be successful with Ike.
on topic now:
I am in love with Ike's air game. 4th longest reach and a good aerial shield (nair). Heck nair and uair eat air dodges. So if Yoshi tries to AD pass Ike, it won't work if he does nair. Aerial Mobility yes, Yoshi has the best of it. But Ike has RANGE to make up for aerial mobility.
Air dodge won't work but DI does depending on where you are.If used on the ground and are right next to your opponent, the Yoshi Bomb(Down-B) will pop your opponent upwards, right in place for the kill hit of the move coming down. It's also much stronger if used on the ground as opposed to starting it in the air.
Though I'm unsure if there is time to Air Dodge inbetween or DI out of the kill hit.
True. But with Ike, we'll use spacing to hit you while you'll need to try to get close and hit us.Our air games are good in different ways. You've got reach, we've got speed (Yoshi has THE fastest horizontal air speed in the game, plus fast aerials other than fair). I just think speed is better. =)
been 2 days I thought you said that you would continue when you woke up.1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.
3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=recovery Its not better than the standard its worse. Against MK you should never use QD he can reach you no matter how high you are and intercept it with shuttle loop. I don't think he does it effortlessly but he doesn't do it with out much trouble.
4. No the jab doesn't have enough reach. It is not good enough because at MK's ideal range it will just miss. MK can take control of his space much easier than Ike can. If your going to speak of Ike's spacing as being a huge advantage then you have to admit that MK can do the exact same thing.
5. The stage is not much better for Ike stop over estimating him. I could maybe agree on a slight advantage but like I said MK does not fall behind. What options does Ike have that MK doesn't in the water? Swim, jump, and aether? MK has more jumps giving him more time to and more opportunities at aerials. Also what you describe is essentially an air battle to get the opponent into the water. MK has the advantage over Ike at this position. Ike just has a much more effective punish but once again MK doesn't get punished easily.
6. Whats going to make MK stay there by the shield? He can just move right back to the position where Ike is to slow and has nothing to protect him from the second tornado. What happens now it pokes trough. shuttle loop can be canceled before the entire loop finishes it is not as punishable and as predictable as you make it sound.
7. I'm not saying they aren't worth anything I'm saying they aren't worth as much as you think. MK has priority MK has power MK has range. In fact I think MK has more power to speed ratio than Ike does which allow him to utilize it more than Ike. Speed also allows him to use his spacing much better.
DDD: the dash grab would result in Ike being grabbed not DDD being jabbed and if not he could do a sliding shield grab. You can't expect to kill anyone vertically easily ever with DI. Ike is only good at punishing up B and if canceled right Ike doesn't have time to hit with a smash attack. If your recovering that low then DDD can just jump off and Bair. Since when is recovering with Ike simple? think before you say these things man your just making it sound like you don't know Ike.
1) It is much harder than you'd think to SDI out of a random jab. And I don't think how you could possibly say that Ike's jab isn't fast at all.1. With good DI they don't generally work. If they can whiff once they can whiff every time against a good opponent. You saying that the timing for SDI is impossible is once again just making you sound bad people SDI out of things all the time and Ike's jab isn't fast at all.
3. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196137&highlight=recovery Its not better than the standard its worse. Against MK you should never use QD he can reach you no matter how high you are and intercept it with shuttle loop. I don't think he does it effortlessly but he doesn't do it with out much trouble.
4. No the jab doesn't have enough reach. It is not good enough because at MK's ideal range it will just miss. MK can take control of his space much easier than Ike can. If your going to speak of Ike's spacing as being a huge advantage then you have to admit that MK can do the exact same thing.
5. The stage is not much better for Ike stop over estimating him. I could maybe agree on a slight advantage but like I said MK does not fall behind. What options does Ike have that MK doesn't in the water? Swim, jump, and aether? MK has more jumps giving him more time to and more opportunities at aerials. Also what you describe is essentially an air battle to get the opponent into the water. MK has the advantage over Ike at this position. Ike just has a much more effective punish but once again MK doesn't get punished easily.
6. Whats going to make MK stay there by the shield? He can just move right back to the position where Ike is to slow and has nothing to protect him from the second tornado. What happens now it pokes trough. shuttle loop can be canceled before the entire loop finishes it is not as punishable and as predictable as you make it sound.
7. I'm not saying they aren't worth anything I'm saying they aren't worth as much as you think. MK has priority MK has power MK has range. In fact I think MK has more power to speed ratio than Ike does which allow him to utilize it more than Ike. Speed also allows him to use his spacing much better.
DDD: the dash grab would result in Ike being grabbed not DDD being jabbed and if not he could do a sliding shield grab. You can't expect to kill anyone vertically easily ever with DI. Ike is only good at punishing up B and if canceled right Ike doesn't have time to hit with a smash attack. If your recovering that low then DDD can just jump off and Bair. Since when is recovering with Ike simple? think before you say these things man your just making it sound like you don't know Ike.
1. its not a random jab its a Nair follow up try again. the initial jab is fast the rest isn't.Thanks for reminding me, I completely forgot.
1) It is much harder than you'd think to SDI out of a random jab. And I don't think how you could possibly say that Ike's jab isn't fast at all.
3) That list is visibly wrong, since we already established that Ike is better than Falco recovery wise a while back. I could point out more issues, but that's not important. You probably shouldn't Quick Draw versus Meta Knight unless you are lined up with the edge or if he is unable to punish it.
4) Let's look at it as there being three distinct spacing ranges. There is long range (Which I will define as Ike's Fair distance), Medium (Ike's Nair, Bair and most of MK's moves) and close range, namely Ike's jab and MK's jab (Which sucks). Out of these, Ike wins pretty heavily in long and short range, but loses out in mid range. Can we agree on that?
5) I'm really not overestimating him. Ike really does do very well on this stage. The main thing is that now Ike can do everything he can in the air, except his is not limited by his **** offstage combat capabilities and mediocre recovery. I'd define tht as very good.
6) There is some time as the tornado ends that Ike can just roll away or something before MK starts the second one/cools down. You also forget that the damage of the tornado goes from good to terrible after the first use. And yes, Shuttle Loop is not super punishable, but the path is generally predictable.
7) I understand that MK has good qualities almost all around, trust me. I am just saying that since Ike can edge him out, plus the fact that Ike isn't as slow as he looks on first glance, stops him from being *****. See Ganondorf, for example. He outpowers Meta Knight, but loses in everything else and is slower than Ike is and has worse recovery. That's an 80-20 match. Ike is just a super improved Ganondorf in this scenario.
D3: I said recovering with Ike is simple. It was late, my mistake. It's not. The thing still stands that Ike is really good at punishing the Up B and has two very usable spikes on Dedede.