Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[HeroMystic]

Haha, that's quite the large amount of info.

Marth is a rather popular matchup.

 

[Kirk]

We could probably end up doing a matchup a day at this rate. Though I don't think that's too realistic at this point :o

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd say two days at best, but it largely depends on the popularity of the match-up. D3 took awhile.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Uh, they're recoveries aren't too similar... xP Marth has a lot of extra options when recovering (ShieldBreaker, Dancing Blade, etc...)...

I think Ike's recovery is a little better. Dolphin Slash is basically the only move I use for recovery with Marth. Shield Breaker is too predictable and leaves you open. And Dancing Blade hardly moves Marth forward, only slowing his fall speed marginally. Not nearly as useful as in Melee. Just like with Ike, I'd rather drop down under the stage and edge-grab with Up-B. Much safer and reliable.

 

[YagamiLight]

So I went ahead and decided to make an analysis on Marth. And now my hands kind of hurt, figures. In any case, I'll add a new character in a bit. Stay tuned. Oh and remember, English isn't my first language (it's not even my second), so if you find anything that sounds really bad, be sure to tell me.

 

[Jibbles]

Before you guys go to Zelda...

Also be sure to realize that Marth's recovery is probably slightly worse than yours, actually, even with all the neat tricks he can do with his specials (They all help recovery in some way or another).

I disagree with this. Marth's Up B has virtually the same vertical distance as Ike's, and gives more horizontal distance. It has a bigger sweetspot range (or as it seems anyways). It's also basically ungimpable, unlike Aether.

Plus Marth has more aerial speed, falls slower than Ike and appears to have a slightly higher midair jump.

 

[•Col•]

I think Ike's recovery is a little better. Dolphin Slash is basically the only move I use for recovery with Marth. Shield Breaker is too predictable and leaves you open. And Dancing Blade hardly moves Marth forward, only slowing his fall speed marginally. Not nearly as useful as in Melee. Just like with Ike, I'd rather drop down under the stage and edge-grab with Up-B. Much safer and reliable.

If you use Dancing Blade right after you do your second jump, you get vertical distance, not horizontal like in Melee.

 

[Rykoshet]

Zelda is not exactly an easy matchup, but you have everything on her of importance. Your footspeed is better, your recovery is better (and hers is easy to read and punish/kill her out of), your weight, range, aerial game, offstage, and power all outdo hers. Thr trick to this fight is your shield. Not dodging, not rolling, shielding. Nayru's love, Front, and Up Smash all have lingering hitboxes that stay out for a certain duration based on whether or not they connect. Her front smash is easily spot dodged but the other 2 you're better off just full shielding and punishing her afterwards with a jab/back air/grab, etc. Her going after you offstage is generally a death wish on her part, and the trick to punishing her out of farore's wind is to bait a reaction/premature activation then knowing when to shield on exit, that's it. Your spacing will get better with time against it until you know it sell enough to grab her or smash/tilt/counter her out of it on exit. Din's fire is a terrible projectile, do not get baited to approaching on anything but your own terms against her, if you can frustrate your opponent ot having to approach you all the better. Her grab is slow, you can rightfully jab or grab her out of it before she can get it out in time. If you get down thrown and they attempt to follow up, hit your c stick in the direction she is, a back air will knock her *** straight back to hyrule.

Also, get her offstage/above you and watch her fall apart, she has absolutely no good options from above and self preservation outdoes edging another hit out when offstage since FW has no aerial drift worth a ****, you can edgehog her easily if she dips below the ledge.

This used to be commonly thought to be a 6-4 A for zelda, but in reality as time progresses this is gonna become worse and worse for her, this is more like a 4.5-5.5 D for her.

 

[YagamiLight]

I disagree with this. Marth's Up B has virtually the same vertical distance as Ike's, and gives more horizontal distance. It has a bigger sweetspot range (or as it seems anyways). It's also basically ungimpable, unlike Aether.

Plus Marth has more aerial speed, falls slower than Ike and appears to have a slightly higher midair jump.

I guess you do have a point. Though Ike also does more damage with Aether and it can of course use Super Armor frames. When I think about it, it's more preference based, so I guess I'll take the line out of there when I come back from classes.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Before you guys go to Zelda...


I disagree with this. Marth's Up B has virtually the same vertical distance as Ike's, and gives more horizontal distance. It has a bigger sweetspot range (or as it seems anyways). It's also basically ungimpable, unlike Aether.

Plus Marth has more aerial speed, falls slower than Ike and appears to have a slightly higher midair jump.

Marth's Dolphin Slash indeed sweetspots the ledge better than Ike's Aether. Having tested both, Marth's goes a bit lower than Ike's but more horizontal (just slightly). I wouldn't say it's ungimpable. Super armour frames last only for the start-up of his Up-B, so Marth can still be knocked out of the move before he sweetspots the ledge. The other problem is that Marth sometimes gets trapped under ledges in stages like Final Destination.

 

[•Col•]

Marth's Dolphin Slash indeed sweetspots the ledge better than Ike's Aether. Having tested both, Marth's goes a bit lower than Ike's but more horizontal (just slightly). I wouldn't say it's ungimpable. Super armour frames last only for the start-up of his Up-B, so Marth can still be knocked out of the move before he sweetspots the ledge. The other problem is that Marth sometimes gets trapped under ledges in stages like Final Destination.

Marth doesn't have SA frames on his Up B... o-o Did you mean Ike's Up B?

Lol, and a good Marth really shouldn't get caught under ledges.... If you're THAT close to the stage already, just di toward the stage, then Dolphin Slash away from the stage to grab the ledge... xP Not that hard...

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Marth doesn't have SA frames on his Up B... o-o Did you mean Ike's Up B?

Lol, and a good Marth really shouldn't get caught under ledges.... If you're THAT close to the stage already, just di toward the stage, then Dolphin Slash away from the stage to grab the ledge... xP Not that hard...

I'm pretty sure Dolphin Slash has super armour for the first 4 frames.

 

[•Col•]

I'm pretty sure Dolphin Slash has super armour for the first 4 frames.

Oh, no, those are invincibility frames... Lol... =P

There's a difference... SA frames is when you get damage, but no knock back... Invincibility frames is when you don't take damage OR knock back...

Basically, it's like you got the Star Item for the first four frames of the Dolphin Slash... xD

 

[Guilhe]

I think Ike's recovery is a little better. Dolphin Slash is basically the only move I use for recovery with Marth. Shield Breaker is too predictable and leaves you open. And Dancing Blade hardly moves Marth forward, only slowing his fall speed marginally. Not nearly as useful as in Melee. Just like with Ike, I'd rather drop down under the stage and edge-grab with Up-B. Much safer and reliable.

Similar to Ike, Marth safest way to recover is from under stage. However, his UpB is a single vertical slash, making his recovery much easier to speed hog. He’ll die immediately if he was aiming for the ledge and, if not, you can punish him during his landing with a ledge hopped Fair or Nair.

As counterpick, I would choose Final Destination because the timing for grabbing the ledge is much stricter than in Smashville (which has platforms to aid the recovery as well) or Battlefield. I know that affect my recovery as well, but it hurts him more than me.

And where the guide mentions Marth’s powerful juggling? Your matchup guide over Marth is very shallow in my opinion Light.

 

[YagamiLight]

And where the guide mentions Marth’s powerful juggling? Your matchup guide over Marth is very shallow in my opinion Light.

Ah, you're right, the guide doesn't mention that Marth is fantastic at juggling. I'd say that it's not shallow by any means, as it explores the character well. I'll add a bit on juggling soon.

 

[XACE-K]

I also don't know much about the Zelda match-up either. >_< Anyway, when I have played a Zelda, Din's Fire can be pain so dodge it. Farore's Wind is predictable so punish that. Watch out for her f-air or b-air when it's sweetspotted. (although that would be common knowledge)

lol @ xace's new avatar.

Thanks

 

[Kinzer]

I find her alter ego to pose more of a threat, however Zelda herself might pose something like a bothersome character...

Anyway let's see, Din's Fire isn't too much of a deal when you know the opponent is always going to place it where you are, however it could be a handful when and if you're opponents adapt and try to place the Din's Fire where you are GOING to be.

Her Side and Up-Smashes have multiple hits, I find it easier to punish her Usmash if she misses you. Her Dsmash might be a nuisance sense it comes out pretty quick and has some considerable horizontal knockback.

Zelda has about as much power in her aerial attacks as Ike does when sweetspotted, but they have a lot of ending lag just as our main man's do. It probably helps to read Zelda and try to counter the swetspotted aerials or the good ol' SA'd Eruption.

Zelda's Up-b can play some mindgames if they know how to teleport with it, I've seen it done where a player can make it so she doesn't even go anywhere and it really threw me off when I tried to punish her coming out of it, however it appears to be that when used as a recovery could make dishing out the punishment just a little bit easier. By predicting where she will be you could either land exactly where she will pop up with counter ready or just outside of the hitbox and knock her out of the stage with one of your more stronger attacks.

I won't go into detail about her down-B just because people consider Shiek a whole entire different match-up and I'll probably be reading about that in the future.

 

[raph21]

i only kno 1 homie that uses snake and he aint that powerful but from wat ive fought the thing u most worry bout its his range and the mines xD 1 blink and u dont see the mine and ur 120%, ur dead xD so take care of all those things and he`ll be no match for u, also u can try practicing with him lvl 9 when ur alone lol

 

[zealotscout]

things to fear :
marth: his queerness and his unexpected hits that smash you more than ikes own attacks, Tip of his sword.
MK:speed , recovery.
Snake: his stupid mines and F smash
Zelda : her wierd hit box smashes and her dins fire. and her good looks wink wink*

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well, Zelda/Sheik is my latest Secondary, so I should be able to actually add something to this one, though, I know Sheik a lot better then Zelda currently....

Her Aerials kills. Even sooner then Ike's in most cases when sweetspoted. Her Uair is harsh and has a lot more knockback then people seem to think it would have, as well as a disjointed hitbox. That, and with your bad Air movement, you will most likely fall into it while it's still happening. Dair is a spike like Ike's Dair, but with less range, though less lag. Fair and Bair will kill you fairly early on when off stage and Fair doesn't have nearly as much lag as Ike's Fair. Her Nair is also great for racking up damage, or "flowing" (as there are no combos in Brawl unless you are MK or are at really low %s) into her other aerials, depending on the % dg you are at. You have the range on her in the air, but I'd give the KOing power in the air point to Zelda.

And then there are her grabs. Her Bthrow might not kill as soon as Ness's, but it can still kill by around 160% when at the edge. Also, it sets you up to be Thunder Kick'd as you try to get back on stage at lower %s, in which case, you will most likely die. Fthrow is similar, but not quite as strong, but flows into dash attack at lower %s, or Din's Fire at higher %s.

Speaking of Din's Fire, it's a pain in the rear. She can just shoot it at you when you are recovering if she chooses to do so if she doesn't want to chase you under the stage. Even with the small amount of hitstun in Brawl, it can be enough to cause you to fall too far away from the ledge. Or just simply rack on a bunch of extra damage for free.

Her recovery has more range then Ike's, but it takes a moment to move towards the edge if she free falls, so either she will land on stage, or a little above the ledge, or sweetspot the ledge. All of that is within Fsmash/Usmash Range. Or counter/eruption. Take advantage of that fact, and don't try to chase her off of the stage. Her recovery can stagespike under the perfect conditions.

Her Dsmash is fast, and her Fsmash and Usmash are deadly strong. She can also fake you out with A or Ftilt, which look similar to Fsmash, or Utilt which is a Usmash look alike. Shield is very important in this match up, however, her smashes can eat it up quickly, and you won't have a lot of time to punish them.

I'd say go for BF in the neutrals, as she has landing lag if landing right after an air attack on a platform. Not sure on Counter Picks...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Looks like people have some misguided opinions on Zelda. Her SS aerials actually kill faster than Ike's do. They can actually be compared to Ike's tilts. The good thing is that if you shield them they do leave her open, ofcourse they come out pretty fast so be ready for them.

If you compare zelda's smashes to her aerials they are pretty weak. The only problem with those is that you have to shield the entire thing and you can't side step it. I think her Utilt is stronger than her smash attacks, and I know they are weaker than Uair.

Din's fire is also something that shouldn't worry you. Even you are blind and playing at a tournament just hit the shield when you hear it coming.

Her recovery is also worse than Ike's. Sure it can cover more ground but once it is started it could be compared to QD as to how open she is, the move is also harder to SS now than back in melee. If she does it to close to the stage you have time to run off and Fair her if you are paying attention. If she uses her ^B from under the ledge it will keep on going and doesn't SS onto the ledge so charge up your Fsmash, Eruption, or get a Dtilt ready. If she aims to land on the stage you can just punish her out of that like other people have mentioned.

 

[•Col•]

I'd say go for BF in the neutrals, as she has landing lag if landing right after an air attack on a platform. Not sure on Counter Picks...

Battlefield sounds pretty good for a stage, I guess... I'm thinking that Lylat Cruise would be a good stage though... It could REALLY screw up Zelda's recovery... Either, she miss the ledge and she falls to her death, or lands on the stage... From there, you could charge up Eruption and use the SA frames to negate the hitbox when she reappears onto the stage. Or, even if they do angle the Up B right, they'll reappear and grab the ledge. The good thing about this is that it takes a sec for Zelda to grab the ledge after her Up B... (Unless they do it at just the right spot, in which case they'll reappear on the ledge... but I think it's A LOT more difficult for them to do and I don't even know if it's possible for them to reappear on the ledge because of the tilting) Anyway, yeah, once you get a Zelda far enough of the stage, just start charging Eruption, and you'll probably hit them with it on this stage... Unless, they try to recover using Din's Fire, in which case, use the SA frames on the eruption (or just shield it if you can =P), then jump out and hit her with an aerial...

So yeah, in short, I think Lylat Cruise would be a good stage because it's easier to edgeguard Zelda here... Plus, there are platforms to help Ike pressure...

Another stage I think that might be good is Frigate Orpheon... Cuz there's no ledge on the right side for Zelda to grab on the first form of the stage, so just do Eruption again... However, that could screw you over too... Also, when the platform on the right side goes down, you can do your wall infinite for a bit, or forward throw to a tilt or something... -_-

I dunno, I've been tired all day.... And I haven't played brawl in quite a while... So yeah, dunno if I'm right about everything here... And I don't feel like thinking anymore... xD Anyway, I think Lylat Cruise would be one of the best options...

And one last thing, Zelda's dsmash really screws with Ike... It comes out fast and sends you almost completely horizontal... So just watch for it...

EDIT:Oh, another thing that I don't think that's been mentioned yet-- You can smash di out of her forward smash and [MAYBE] her Up smash... If you di (smash di for more consistent results) upward when you get caught in her forward smash, you'll dodge the last hit that sends you away... And I think it may be possible to smash di out of her up smash (or at least, only certain characters can), I may be wrong though, and I'm not sure what direction you have to di...

 

[XACE-K]

And one last thing, Zelda's dsmash really screws with Ike... It comes out fast and sends you almost completely horizontal... So just watch for it...

Agreed. That's her option for KOing Ike.

 

[metroid1117]

I don't have much experience against good Zeldas, so I'll refrain from giving advice.

However, you can easily SDI out of her FSmash by DI'ing up and towards her. There's supposed to be a way to SDI out of her USmash, but I don't know how.

 

[•Col•]

I don't have much experience against good Zeldas, so I'll refrain from giving advice.

However, you can easily SDI out of her FSmash by DI'ing up and towards her. There's supposed to be a way to SDI out of her USmash, but I don't know how.

I asked the Zelda boards a while ago. how to di out of her usmash.. I believe that the character must be small, light, and di... Uh... Was it downward? I dunno... xD

But yeah, di'ing up out of her forward smash let's you escape most of the time... But if you smash di, I believe you get out every time, which is why is said it's more consistent, thus more reliable... =P

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't have much experience with Zelda, but I will say that Din's Fire is nothing to worry about. Just Shield/Spotdodge it. You should be more worried about her really lingering attacks that makes it kinda hard to approach.

 

[•Col•]

Cool... The thread has been stickied.... :D

... Or has it been stickied this whole time, and I'm just a moron who didn't notice? xD

 

[Kinzer]

No Col I just noticed now it got stickied and it wasn't before...more Zelda debate!

 

[YagamiLight]

Yeah, it wasn't stickied before.

That said, I'm giving another day to discuss Zelda, just for the weekend crowd, I guess.

I'm going to work on making the guide have better headings and color in the future, for no real purpose besides style.

 

[XACE-K]

Yeah, it wasn't stickied before.

That said, I'm giving another day to discuss Zelda, just for the weekend crowd, I guess.

I'm going to work on making the guide have better headings and color in the future, for no real purpose besides style.

Makes sense also, where did you get that pic of DDD? I'm just curious to know.

 

[YagamiLight]

Makes sense also, where did you get that pic of DDD? I'm just curious to know.

For all of the pictures, I just use Google and search images until I find one that I particularly like.

The address for the Dedede pic in specific is:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/MrSaturn99/King Dedede/kingedede.gif

 

[XACE-K]

For all of the pictures, I just use Google and search images until I find one that I particularly like.

The address for the Dedede pic in specific is:
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b208/MrSaturn99/King Dedede/kingedede.gif

Well that picture looked like it was from one of the kirby games but I didn't know which one.

Also, what is the match-up number thing (like 7-3, 5-5, etc) for Ike vs. Zelda? I really have little knowledge on this match-up.

 

[•Col•]

Well that picture looked like it was from one of the kirby games but I didn't know which one.

Also, what is the match-up number thing (like 7-3, 5-5, etc) for Ike vs. Zelda? I really have little knowledge on this match-up.

Hmm, I'd say either 6-4 Zelda, or 5-5...

 

[Brinzy]

Ike players, please listen to Ryko. As a Zelda player myself (along with several others who would agree with me), Zelda has no advantage in this match-up. It's not a one-sided one for either character, but it is definitely not in her favor.

 

[YagamiLight]

While I'm opposed to giving the number odds in the first post, if you asked me, I'd say that Ike has a tiny bit of an advantage on Zelda. Perhaps, 5.5-4.5 in Ike's favor. That's not really a meaningful number and it tells you little, but none of them really tell you much (Hence why this guide is made!!!).

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

its 6-4 dude tons of zelda mains say that she has nothing on Ike. Even really good ones like ryoko.

 

[•Col•]

its 6-4 dude tons of zelda mains say that she has nothing on Ike. Even really good ones like ryoko.

If that's what Ryoko says, then I believe it... Ryoko is one of the most intelligent members I've seen on these boards......

 

[Kirk]

its 6-4

Theres my two cents

Everything else has been said already.

 

[Ussi]

I will agree on Zelda being 6-4 >_> I even fought Ryoko and i only brought him down to one stock cause i managed to stay alive when he switched to Zelda for the kill. (offline)

Zelda is toooo light and lacks combobility. >_> I even managed to survive a Zelda's upsmash on BF at 100% (must have been some super SDI i pulled off) So you kill her at earlier percents.

Ike's Air game > Zelda's Air game. (except don't try to dair Zelda[when she's under you, otherwise go for the spike], her uair will kill you)

I actually think you can do a grounded QD to avoid Din's fire

 

[Guilhe]

Guys, look at this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193553
Marth players recommend pushing Ike to the edge of the stage and using counter against Aether. That sounds like a good strategy; we should be avoiding the boarders.

Please Light, let’s start rating the matchups. This thread already turned official and we got more matchups discussed than any matchup guide in the past. For the sake of representing Ike in the general matchup chart and in a more precise manner in the tier list.