Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[MysticKenji]

I'm petty sure if you try to counter Mortardash, Snake still goes through you...but I may be wrong.

 

[Guilhe]

QD and Eruption are not absolute deathwishes. Quick Draw need not just be used to quickly predict, get in, jab combo. You can use it for mindgames as well. And those fewSA frames are just what you need to grab the edge, in the case of eruption.

The Grand Viper maneuver is easy to predict and can be severely punished when the distance traveled is miscalculated. As the opponent is Metaknight and he will never be still, this is not an effective approach. And why use Eruption instead of air dodge? Air dodge has much less lag.

 

[•Col•]

Hmm... One thing that is really difficult, is when Snake edgeguards you with his Nikita missiles... If you try to quickdraw, you'll dash into it and most likely die,depending on %'s (then again, you probably even shouldn't be using QD to recover anyway... xD unless that's you're TOO far away)... And if you try to Aether, he can make it drop down onto you...

You're best chance is to try to time your SA frames on the Aether... Even then, you have to be close enough to the stage and be lucky... PLUS, Snake still has the option of edguarding you with aerials too... D:

 

[Wyvern-x]

It you QD into the nikita QD will do the attack as if someone where in the way making you fall to your doom.

 

[XACE-K]

-I've seen Marths use a SHCounter to get rid of Motion sensor mines. I don't know if it would work with -Ike's Counter or not. It should, but it would be harder to do.

Whenever I tried it, it doesn't work. Marth's counter activates faster than Ike's even though they both last for the same amount of time.

 

[HeroMystic]

In terms of edgeguarding, Snake has a lot more options. I think this is one of those times where QD-Recovery can come in handy if Ike is high enough. Snake's jumping sucks, and it's even better if he's busy with the Nikita. You can just QD over him to get back on stage, and I'm pretty sure you can DI upwards if you happen to eat a F-tilt.

But the Aether is still more safe I believe. I can't say what to do against the Nikita because I lack the knowledge on how bad it is getting hit by it as Ike when recovering.

 

[•Col•]

It you QD into the nikita QD will do the attack as if someone where in the way making you fall to your doom.

Woops, yeah... xD That's what I meant... Lol... Haven't played brawl in a few weeks...

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Whenever I tried it, it doesn't work. Marth's counter activates faster than Ike's even though they both last for the same amount of time.

It works. You just have to activate it a few frames faster than you would with Marth's.

 

[YagamiLight]

It works. You just have to activate it a few frames faster than you would with Marth's.

That is correct. Marth's counter is faster by 6 frames, but it has a worse cooldown time and damage output.

 

[XZA143]

I've faced a few good snakes (IMO) unfortunately over wifi, so if I'm incredibly wrong let me know. Remember its wifi, take it for what its worth.

I definitely believe getting snake in the air and generally pressuring him is the way to go. Like its been previously said, you don't want to get him room to set up his mines and 'nade you from afar. Once that happens, I've found most snakes will typically wait until you approach, then counter with one of his ridiculously disjointed tilts. IIRC Nidtendofreak said Ike's f-tilt has more range then the first part of Snake's f-tilt by a small margin. In my experience using Ike's f-tilt is risky. If I didn't space perfectly I ate a f-tilt, so I almost stopped using it completely against him.

Once you get in close with snake the question becomes what to do? This is where you use snake's weight against him(he certainly isn't light). AAA with a few cancels mixed in with grabs at early percentages. I believe this is where Ike's generally weak f-throw and b-throw become a blessing. You don't want snake to go too far because you want to continue pressuring and maintaining close proximity. So continue being close and see how the Snake your up against reacts, and that is when the smashes come in. If he likes to roll behind you, pick a smash and punish (each one can actually hit, it really depends on spacing). If he rolls away, follow cautiously and prepare to set up the jab game again. Mix it up accordingly, but keep him close until you got him near the edge. Then its as most have said, attempt to spike him. If he recovers from far away(which the good ones will try to do) mix up your aerial attacks. Eruption, U-air B-air are all effective options.

Lastly, a few notes. I've found an auto-canceled B-air will hit Snake if he happens to be behind you and f-tilts completely. As for grenades, I just run, shield, and continue. There purpose his to keep you away and accumulate damage from a distance safely, so don't let them. For mines, keep close watch where he places them. I can't stress that enough, remember where they are at all times. Even shield/roll over to cause them to detonate or use them to your advantage by throwing/hitting Snake into them. Whichever you feel more comfortable with. As for recovering back onto the stage, I am not 100% positive on how you can influence your DI from Snakes attacks(mainly the tilts and jab combo), but you'll want to high. If low and Snake does the mortar, I've found a nicely timed aether to work. Not too sure on this however.

I apologize for the lack of organization and repeated information(if any). I've had an entire day of work and school so I'm just about drained.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

That is correct. Marth's counter is faster by 6 frames, but it has a worse cooldown time and damage output.

I think the extra damage from Ike's Counter is insignificant. In most circumstances, you're only dealing an extra 2-4 % of damage (unless Ike's has more knockback?). What I do like about Ike's Counter vs Marth's is that he has a larger range when striking back and like you mentioned, less vulnerability after the counter frames end. Marth's is more useful but not by that much in my opinion (I main Marth but use Ike as a secondary). I can time nearly every one of Ike's Counters accurately. It can't be used to escape when trapped in a combo like Marth's though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike's counter indeed has more knockback. It can potentially KO at high %, and I also believe knockback can be increased when countering against high-damaging attacks.

That being said, even if you can counter accurately, it doesn't work well to break out of quick combos like Metaknight's standard-A attack, but it is good to use once every blue moon.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Ike's counter indeed has more knockback. It can potentially KO at high %, and I also believe knockback can be increased when countering against high-damaging attacks.

That being said, even if you can counter accurately, it doesn't work well to break out of quick combos like Metaknight's standard-A attack, but it is good to use once every blue moon.

Off-topic:

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I guess that's another thing better about Ike's Counter. And I would never even think about trying to break out of Meta Knight's lightning fast combos; his attacks all strike a few frames before Ike's Counter even starts working. Even Marth's Counter is not always successful when Meta Knight has him trapped.

 

[YagamiLight]

I added a bit to the MK match-up, mainly Tenki's Brinstar comment.

I have enough information to probably do a nice, lengthy write-up by tomorrow evening, but I'm just going to wait an additional day, just to see if there are any opinions from the weekend crowd. The topic is still moving at a wonderfully brisk pace, regardless.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Go ahead and use things from my guide if you want thats what its for.

It works. You just have to activate it a few frames faster than you would with Marth's.

Even if it works the only reason marth does it is because his shield doesn't slide. It's much easier to dash and press the shield to blow it up unless theres some sort of situation where the counter will hit snake and he can't do anything to avoid it.

As for the grabbing him when he is near the ledge, well I think spiking him is a better option because of his non SA amour and because it actually seems easier to land and more effective.


Does anyone have any good counter pick stages against him? because when I was writing up my thing on stages I only came up with Halberd (because I was told) and stages that are bad for both snake and Ike.

 

[HeroMystic]

Ike and Snake's weaknesses off the stage is too similar to warrant a good counterpick. Any stage that gives advantages to Ike(Platforms = More air comboing) also gives advantages to Snake(Platforms = Better stage control). I'm not even sure how Halberd is even a good counterpick.

 

[FuRy Smash]

i guess maybe snake and ike share stage strengths and weaknesses so just pick a stage that ike is bad on like rainbow cruise, then outplay snake on it.

 

[Deleted member]

Just get him off the stage. Insta-spike for pure greatness. If he goes too high with cypher, punish his *** on the way down, since he's limited his options with his only choice being coming back down. Upsmash/Uair/Eruption all come to mind.

P.S. Eruption is a godly move and if you don't use it you should feel sorry for yourself. :D

if you hit snake with something 7% or more it knocks him out of his up B. We play Ike, so rather than care about 7%, just do moves.

dtilt spike, jump way out and forward air or back air, or edgehog, followed by X jump into back air (it comes out really fast if you time it right).

Jump as low as you want and spike him, his cypher will hit you and stop you from falling to your death. I do suicide style spikes on snake all the time, he can't keep grenade jumping if he's dead.

ike kind of ****s on snake.

 

[•Col•]

i guess maybe snake and ike share stage strengths and weaknesses so just pick a stage that ike is bad on like rainbow cruise, then outplay snake on it.

This is exactly what I was thinking... Thought I realized that Ike still has more of a disadvantage on Rainbow Cruise... Cuz once he uses his Up B, he's done for.... D: But Snake can just keep using his Down B to help him recover....

I think that certain parts of Delphino Plaza would really screw with Snake's gameplay... I'm thinking of the parts like when there's the 3 columns with the water in between them...

I also think that Lylat Cruise might be a good idea for this matchup... The tilting of the stage will help slightly to prevent projectile spamming... It also may gimp your recovery sometimes, but it's also a lot easier for Snake to get caught under this stage...

Hmm... And for some reason, I think the best counterpick stage would be Norfair... I have no idea why... It just seems like it would, to me... Maybe someone else could elaborate... i might even be wrong, I dunno...

 

[XACE-K]

Does anyone have any good counter pick stages against him? because when I was writing up my thing on stages I only came up with Halberd (because I was told) and stages that are bad for both snake and Ike.

I'm not sure, whatever stage is good for Ike seems to be good for Snake. I'll look into it.

 

[MysticKenji]

I recall hearing that Halberd was a good pressure stage for Snake, so that may not work as well as one would like.

I think something like DP might work.

And Lylat's tilting doesn't really do anything to Snake's spam game. >_>

 

[•Col•]

I recall hearing that Halberd was a good pressure stage for Snake, so that may not work as well as one would like.

I think something like DP might work.

And Lylat's tilting doesn't really do anything to Snake's spam game. >_>

It does help EVER so slightly... D:

Anyway... Am I just crazy or would Norfair be a good counterpick against Snake or not?

 

[XACE-K]

It does help EVER so slightly... D:

Anyway... Am I just crazy or would Norfair be a good counterpick against Snake or not?

I have no clue because I couldn't find anything on it. I'm thinking yes but I need to see.

 

[•Col•]

I have no clue because I couldn't find anything on it. I'm thinking yes but I need to see.

Well, some obvious things I can think of are: Snake can't really mortar slide here... He can't projectile spam if you're on a higher platform than he is, and even if you're not, it'd still be easier to dodge... Plus, I believe that the lava explodes any mines he may have laid...

Those are all 3 really big pluses for Ike right there... o-o Also, any disadvantage Ike would have on this stage would most likely apply to Snake as well...

And unless I'm wrong, I believe Ike can still reach through the above platforms... (Dunno, haven't gotten to play Brawl in a long time) Though, then I think Snake may be able to reach through with his utilt and usmash as well...

So yeah, unless someone points out something that I'm missing... I'm thinking that this is a pretty good stage for Ike vs. Snake...

 

[YagamiLight]

Well, some obvious things I can think of are: Snake can't really mortar slide here... He can't projectile spam if you're on a higher platform than he is, and even if you're not, it'd still be easier to dodge... Plus, I believe that the lava explodes any mines he may have laid...

Those are all 3 really big pluses for Ike right there... o-o Also, any disadvantage Ike would have on this stage would most likely apply to Snake as well...

And unless I'm wrong, I believe Ike can still reach through the above platforms... (Dunno, haven't gotten to play Brawl in a long time) Though, then I think Snake may be able to reach through with his utilt and usmash as well...

So yeah, unless someone points out something that I'm missing... I'm thinking that this is a pretty good stage for Ike vs. Snake...

It's a nice stage for Ike versus any campy character in general, but if he say, puts a mine on a top platform and C4 on a lower one, your movement can be restricted easily, though that's not a terrible thing when you consider all the positives it.

I'll probably have a write up done by tomorrow morning or early afternoon. If you have any possible recommendations as to what will help this topic, don't hesitate to say so.

 

[XACE-K]

It's a nice stage for Ike versus any campy character in general, but if he say, puts a mine on a top platform and C4 on a lower one, your movement can be restricted easily, though that's not a terrible thing when you consider all the positives it.

I'll probably have a write up done by tomorrow morning or early afternoon. If you have any possible recommendations as to what will help this topic, don't hesitate to say so.

Well I can't think of what else to add. You put write about the match-up,counterpick stages, mindgames, strategies and the characters stats so that's good enough for now.

 

[•Col•]

It's a nice stage for Ike versus any campy character in general, but if he say, puts a mine on a top platform and C4 on a lower one, your movement can be restricted easily, though that's not a terrible thing when you consider all the positives it.

Lol, Snake can do that on pretty much any stage... xD I think it's not as bad on this Norfair, because you literally have half the entire stage left... Plus, like I said, the lava blows up any explosives he has, right? o-o

And do Snakes even use C4 on the stage anymore? o-o I thought they reserve it for recovery now.... If there's a C4 already on the stage, it takes too long to detonate it to drop another one to use C4 recovery on most stages... Does anyone know? xD

 

[HeroMystic]

Mines are much more effective, and they use C4 to either put it on themselves or on the opponent.

 

[•Col•]

Mines are much more effective, and they use C4 to either put it on themselves or on the opponent.

Ok, that's what I thought... But was I right? Does the lava explode his mines and such? o-o

 

[HeroMystic]

I just checked, and yeah they do. They explode from both the rising lava and the wall of lava from the sides. However, they don't explode from the wave of lava (when the blue bunker shows up).

 

[•Col•]

I just checked, and yeah they do. They explode from both the rising lava and the wall of lava from the sides. However, they don't explode from the wave of lava (when the blue bunker shows up).

Ok, cool... Also, is there a way to dodge the wall of lava with Ike? Can you use Counter to dodge it? Or can you sidestep it or grab the edge for invincibility frames? OR can you use Ike's SA frames on either his Aether or Eruption?

Lol... I wouldn't know, I never ended up played Norfair that much... (Unfortunately... D: )

EDIT: And now I'm curious... Which move of Ike's has more SA frames-- Aether or Eruption?

 

[HeroMystic]

Assuming you meant the wave of lava (cause dude, how you gonna dodge a WALL? ):

Counter works, SA frames work, Shield works, Air dodge works, rolling works, Spot dodge works (although it's very hard to do).

Seriously, the wave of lava isn't even a threat unless you're at high %.

 

[•Col•]

Assuming you meant the wave of lava (cause dude, how you gonna dodge a WALL? ):

Counter works, SA frames work, Shield works, Air dodge works, rolling works, Spot dodge works (although it's very hard to do).

Seriously, the wave of lava isn't even a threat unless you're at high %.

Lol, yeah, I meant the wave, of course... And I thought that if you tried to shield it, your shield would break... o-o Lol... Shows how much I've played the stage...

And what would be the best option to do? (The counter, SA frames, air dodging, etc...)

Sorry I can't check myself; I don't have my Wii... D:

One last thing, what has more SA frames? Aether or Eruption?

 

[Kirk]

One last thing, what has more SA frames? Aether or Eruption?

Aether. Though usefulness is another issue.

 

[HeroMystic]

Air dodging if you're in the air, Shielding if you're on the ground.

And I'm not sure about the SA frames. I believe Aether does.

 

[•Col•]

Aether. Though usefulness is another issue.

Well, I was just wondering what would be better to dodge the wave of lava on Norfair... Although, it may just be better to shield... =P Anyone know how much damage the wave of lava does?

 

[Kirk]

Why use risk timing SA and taking damage when its even easier to avoid the damage completely?

Shielding, timing ledge invincibility, and dodging are all easy ways around it. It's really a non-issue imo.

 

[•Col•]

Why use risk timing SA and taking damage when its even easier to avoid the damage completely?

Shielding, timing ledge invincibility, and dodging are all easy ways around it. It's really a non-issue imo.

Umm, like I said... I barely played the stage ever... It's a fun stage and I really like it, I just never ended up playing that much for some reason...

I remember one time I tried to shield the wave, it broke my shield... It must have been low or something... So yeah... I don't have much experience with Norfair...

 

[YagamiLight]

Got the section on Snake up. I'm trying to make these as big as possible without breaking my fingers, heh. If you've got any things you'd like to fix in it, feel free to point them out as I figure out who to do next.

 

[HeroMystic]

About the Quick Draw: Although I said it, make sure you do it when Snake is busy with the Nikita, and half-charge it. If you don't, Snake can have a chance to charge up his Up-Smash which can spell doom.

EDIT: I honestly don't know how I forgot about that Up-Smash. x.x