Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Arturito_Burrito]

You cant use fair against charizards nair, its way slower....
And i love pushing ikes offstage with watergun when they are jabbing near the edge... that nair lasts too much

your playing stupid Ikes.

Steeler will you stop making **** up? If your going to talk about what frame moves come out on go test it your self. Don't take someone elses data and say it's either this or they messed up and its actually FASTER!!!!1212!


If someone messes up on frame data then it can be for the good or bad of the character not just what you would like it to be.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

your playing stupid Ikes.

Steeler will you stop making **** up? If your going to talk about what frame moves come out on go test it your self. Don't take someone elses data and say it's either this or they messed up and its actually FASTER!!!!1212!


If someone messes up on frame data then it can be for the good or bad of the character not just what you would like it to be.

The water gun thing almost never happens, but its SOO fun when it does... and it wasnt been mentioned
And anyway, for punishing flamtrower with QD you will have to:
1. GTFO, and it wont be very easy with oyur running speed
2.Quick draw
You will have to know that charizard is gonna use flamethrower, and rmemeber that we are talking about a good charizard player , so he wont do it in range to let you run away from it easily

 

[Rykoshet]

60:40 Ike, move the **** on.

 

[Steeler]

Steeler will you stop making **** up? If your going to talk about what frame moves come out on go test it your self. Don't take someone elses data and say it's either this or they messed up and its actually FASTER!!!!1212!

If someone messes up on frame data then it can be for the good or bad of the character not just what you would like it to be.

so i can't use the frame data that kirk collected?

for pt, i'm taking the firemario thread for all of my arguments. i'm not making any "****" up. bullet seed was the only exception, which is not even a big deal anyway because 4 frames for bullet seed outspeeds everything but ike's first jab, which can interrupt it anyway. the vast majority of the pt board agreed that bullet seed was most likely faster than 4 frames when that list first came out anyway. it's not like i have always believed its 4 frames but am saying it's 1-2 frames just for the sake of this matchup discussion.

and i don't have the tools to test the frame data. i'm sorry that you continue to berate me for believing that one of ivysaur's moves is faster than what the only current estimates state, even when we've moved on to charizard. i'd like it if you'd please add something of value to the discussion or not post anything at all.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

So... squirtle 40/60 ike's adv
ivy 60/40 ivy's adv
charizard 60/40 charizard's adv

wanna discuss about that??

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

so i can't use the frame data that kirk collected?

Please bold where I said something like this.

for pt, i'm taking the firemario thread for all of my arguments. i'm not making any "****" up. bullet seed was the only exception

I beg to differ

finally, punishing rock smash before charizard uses it is not easy, because the rock comes out in 5 frames...or less. you basically have to hit charizard before he's even in rock smash range.

If your going to say that frame data can be wrong then you have to acknowledge the fact that it could be slower not just the way you want it to be.

which is not even a big deal anyway because 4 frames for bullet seed outspeeds everything but ike's first jab, which can interrupt it anyway. the vast majority of the pt board agreed that bullet seed was most likely faster than 4 frames when that list first came out anyway. it's not like i have always believed its 4 frames but am saying it's 1-2 frames just for the sake of this matchup discussion.

and i don't have the tools to test the frame data. i'm sorry that you continue to berate me for believing that one of ivysaur's moves is faster than what the only current estimates state, even when we've moved on to charizard. i'd like it if you'd please add something of value to the discussion or not post anything at all.

GOD **** IT. Why the hell do you insist on saying BS can interrupt a jab combo? It's been tested and unless the Ike player messes up you can't do it. Hell as far as you or anyone knows it can't happen even if the Ike messes up. You are going by nothing but untested theory crafting. I've already told you kirk doesn't test hitstun so you have nothing to base your BS owns the jab combo argument on. Except but guys trust us we guessed a lot and came up with this conclusion.


Saying it's 1-2 frames for the sake of this match up discussion? why the hell is that a reason? Hey guys let say Fsmash is a 1-2 frame move for the sake of this match up discussion. Our character sucks so much we should just lie so people think it's good and maybe won't try to shield it because they'll be like ZOMG it's so fast why bother.

Seriously why would you make something up for the sake of anything?

It's not that hard to test crap. You have a recording system all you have to do is go to adobe.com and download a free trial of adobe premier. Don't know how to use that one? well then Google sony vegas and get a free trial of that one almost every editing program is a lot better than your random guessing.

I wasn't even "berating" you on Ivysaur your doing the same bull **** with charizard. I would like it if you could add something that wasn't dreamed up in MYOM thread. Other wise don't post anything at all

The PT boards just fail...


edit: you guys do fail you where already told to stop bringing numbers into this. ryko's post wasn't about numbers it was about moving on to another character.

 

[Rykoshet]

I dont wanna discuss it. It's 60:40 ike, if you think ivysaur cant get gimped by some of the widest/strongest aerials in the game, and that a single eruption on any of your moves wont roof you at 75 then I don't know what you're smoking. Squirtle is in the wario category of "royally ****ed the second he gets grabbed but he's so maneuverable he will be annoying to actually damage", and charizard is just another heavy that gets outspaced by a big *** sword just like the rest. Maxed posts per page and this has been going on way too ****ing long, 9 pages. One tenth of a topic that has 25 matchups already is dedicated to some low tier character because all of you wanna sit here and point out the what ifs move-for-****ing-move frame by god forsaken frame.

60:40 ike (Which just means that the PT has to be the better player to win, and not even a drastically better player), move the **** on.

 

[Kirk]

I dont wanna discuss it. It's 60:40 ike, if you think ivysaur cant get gimped by some of the widest/strongest aerials in the game, and that a single eruption on any of your moves wont roof you at 75 then I don't know what you're smoking. Squirtle is in the wario category of "royally ****ed the second he gets grabbed but he's so maneuverable he will be annoying to actually damage", and charizard is just another heavy that gets outspaced by a big *** sword just like the rest. Maxed posts per page and this has been going on way too ****ing long, 9 pages. One tenth of a topic that has 25 matchups already is dedicated to some low tier character because all of you wanna sit here and point out the what ifs move-for-****ing-move frame by god forsaken frame.

60:40 ike (Which just means that the PT has to be the better player to win, and not even a drastically better player), move the **** on.

*high fives*

My apologies but I just had to stay back and wait for all this to end. :o

Moving on sounds like a fantastic idea, no?

 

[Rykoshet]

For the record: Bullet Seed comes out on frame four (corrected, said one before), however interrupting a jab combo considering the first jab has enough hit stun to follow up with a frame thirteen down smash (See: It's a legitimate combo) means that resetting into the 3-5 frame first and second hits will not likely be interrupted by bullet seed. You can beat it out, yes, but interrupting anything but maybe a hesitated third hit is smoking some serious razor leaf.

 

[Steeler]

Please bold where I said something like this.

you didn't specify whether it was for pt frames or ike frames.

If your going to say that frame data can be wrong then you have to acknowledge the fact that it could be slower not just the way you want it to be.

it's possible. i only have anectdotal evidence here, like bullet seed interrupting lucas's jab combo. stuff like that is why i'm confident that it isn't any slower than 4 frames.

GOD **** IT. Why the hell do you insist on saying BS can interrupt a jab combo? It's been tested and unless the Ike player messes up you can't do it. Hell as far as you or anyone knows it can't happen even if the Ike messes up. You are going by nothing but untested theory crafting. I've already told you kirk doesn't test hitstun so you have nothing to base your BS owns the jab combo argument on. Except but guys trust us we guessed a lot and came up with this conclusion.

again, i should have specified that i meant jab walks and jab cancels. i've acknowledged in a previous post that bullet seed can't interrupt a perfect jab combo that hits ivysaur on all three jabs.

Saying it's 1-2 frames for the sake of this match up discussion? why the hell is that a reason? Hey guys let say Fsmash is a 1-2 frame move for the sake of this match up discussion. Our character sucks so much we should just lie so people think it's good and maybe won't try to shield it because they'll be like ZOMG it's so fast why bother.

it's not like i have always believed its 4 frames but am saying it's 1-2 frames just for the sake of this matchup discussion.

you should reread what i said. i'm not just making baseless estimates here (which according to rykoshet, would actually be true).

Seriously why would you make something up for the sake of anything?

It's not that hard to test crap. You have a recording system all you have to do is go to adobe.com and download a free trial of adobe premier. Don't know how to use that one? well then Google sony vegas and get a free trial of that one almost every editing program is a lot better than your random guessing.

actually, thanks for this info. but i don't have a recording system.

I wasn't even "berating" you on Ivysaur your doing the same bull **** with charizard.

i think you are referring to rock smash here. you can just use the move ONCE, and see that the rock clearly comes out before frame 24 or whatever. frame 24 is when charizard actually breaks the rock apart with his head, the rock is there before that. and once the rock is there, any attack that makes contact with it will break the rock apart as if charizard had headbutted it, and you'll take some hefty damage.

this isn't me saying the thread is wrong, this is me telling you that the rock and potential hitbox comes out much sooner than when charizard forces the hitbox out.

all other charizard frame data i've cited is directly from firemario's thread.

edit @ rykoshet: if it's true that the first jab can always combo into the dsmash, then it looks like bullet seed will only work on the "jab walks".

i think it'd be a shame to just say the matchup is 60:40 ike after all of this discussion, and let these past 9 pages go to a complete waste. :\ i'm sure that we are close to a conclusion here.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I'm not sure if BS is on frame 1 ryko. there are other frame 1 moves that can get out of it so if it can't get out of a jab > dsmash then it has to be slower than that. Unless this works on marth too?


Well I never said you can't use anyone's frame testing to begin with I said you can't use it and say it's either this or some other number that would greatly benefit us.

Ok then my bad for not knowing what rocksmash does.

Even so the PT boards do have people with recording equipment someone should do this instead of asking a MK main to do it. Or you could do M2Ks way by pausing the game and holding a button command unpausing and re pausing to see every frame. Have to be pretty fast but it probably just takes practice.

 

[Kirk]

Even so the PT boards do have people with recording equipment someone should do this instead of asking a MK main to do it. Or you could do M2Ks way by pausing the game and holding a button command unpausing and re pausing to see every frame. Have to be pretty fast but it probably just takes practice.

That's...not a very good way to do it... xD

Or you could ask me something and I'll go look into it when I get home from work...I've been lazy lately and in need of getting out of this bad habit.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'm not sure if BS is on frame 1 ryko. there are other frame 1 moves that can get out of it so if it can't get out of a jab > dsmash then it has to be slower than that. Unless this works on marth too?

Difference is marth cant be hit out of his first frame, dolphin slash hits on frame 5, it's just that you cant actually touch marth for the first 4 frames, Ivysaur is vulnerable the whole time.

 

[adumbrodeus]

so i can't use the frame data that kirk collected?

for pt, i'm taking the firemario thread for all of my arguments. i'm not making any "****" up. bullet seed was the only exception, which is not even a big deal anyway because 4 frames for bullet seed outspeeds everything but ike's first jab, which can interrupt it anyway. the vast majority of the pt board agreed that bullet seed was most likely faster than 4 frames when that list first came out anyway. it's not like i have always believed its 4 frames but am saying it's 1-2 frames just for the sake of this matchup discussion.

and i don't have the tools to test the frame data. i'm sorry that you continue to berate me for believing that one of ivysaur's moves is faster than what the only current estimates state, even when we've moved on to charizard. i'd like it if you'd please add something of value to the discussion or not post anything at all.

Dude, stick with the proven data, remember what happened when the Marth boards dropped by, you guys were totally uninformed about the technical specifics and we literally ripped you guys open and showed conclusively that Marth had an advantage against every pokemon.


If you want your match-ups to reflect reality, use the proven data, if you think it's wrong, do your own tests, don't just say it's wrong BECAUSE YOU SAY IT'S WRONG, that's idiotic, and hurts the match-up.


This isn't an honor thing, it's about being true to the match-up so you can be as helpful to your community as possible.

 

[SuorGenoveffa]

What about:

Squirtle/Ike

35/65

Ivysaur/Ike

45/55

Charizard/Ike

50/50

PT/Ike

Somewhere between 45/55 and 40/60, Ike advantage.

Sounds accurate to me. I know I'm some kind of n00b but I've been following this discussion since the beginning and it just got plain ridiculous on both sides. The reason I think Charizard is even with Ike is that it isn't as easy for Ike to outspace Charizard as it is with most of the other heavyweights: Rock Smash and Flamethrower put a good pressure on him and has to be very careful around them, both when approaching and defending.

Despite being both good characters at edgeguarding, it would be easier for Charizard to gimp Ike instead of the other way around for obvious reasons. That said, Ike outspaces Charizard on most ground moves, but has to be tight on spacing: Charizard is fast enough to punish Ike for his mistakes. Just an opinion anyway, but it seemed like right also by judging the endless discussion you guys did have here.

Oh, I main both characters btw. So I'm also interested in moving on, it's not like I'm gonna face PT everyday :D.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

hmm... by the sound of it then It seems like the first jab would have 12 frames of hit stun and then BS would be out prioritized by the down smash. Just going by w/e is in my head don't actually know.

Also check out my sticky going to edit my last post to add my new videos. Hope they uploaded right I just left it in that multi vid uploader thing and came to school.

edit: nvm you just posted ryko I can post again =P

 

[Kirk]

No way Ike's jab has 12 frames of hitstun...that'd be ridiculously broken haha.

I guess I'll just check it out when I get home. *shrug*

 

[Steeler]

Dude, stick with the proven data, remember what happened when the Marth boards dropped by, you guys were totally uninformed about the technical specifics and we literally ripped you guys open and showed conclusively that Marth had an advantage against every pokemon.


If you want your match-ups to reflect reality, use the proven data, if you think it's wrong, do your own tests, don't just say it's wrong BECAUSE YOU SAY IT'S WRONG, that's idiotic, and hurts the match-up.


This isn't an honor thing, it's about being true to the match-up so you can be as helpful to your community as possible.

ugh this is getting blown out of proportion imo. i am not claiming that ivysaur's usmash comes out on frame 10. i'm not claiming that rock smash comes out on frame 1. bullet seed is the only attack that i find fault with and even some ikes claim that its faster than 4 frames. i'm sticking with the proven data in every other case, unless there is zero proven data, as for the case of rock smash's rock coming out.

and yes the marth board ***** us lol. we didn't know what we were doing back then...maybe we still don't, but i am definitely smarter for the marth experience than before.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

I cant see ivy having a disadvantege against ike.. shes fast enough on the ground to reach the "safe zone" where ike wont tip his attacks and her attacks (which are ranged and fast) hit ike... both can be gimped, because vinewhip does a good job sweetspoting the ledge before aether, so IMO its neutral at worst for ivy
And charizard is good edgeguarding ike, pressures very well, has a nice grab range/game and outranges with flamethrower...

 

[adumbrodeus]

ugh this is getting blown out of proportion imo. i am not claiming that ivysaur's usmash comes out on frame 10. i'm not claiming that rock smash comes out on frame 1. bullet seed is the only attack that i find fault with and even some ikes claim that its faster than 4 frames. i'm sticking with the proven data in every other case, unless there is zero proven data, as for the case of rock smash's rock coming out.

and yes the marth board ***** us lol. we didn't know what we were doing back then...maybe we still don't, but i am definitely smarter for the marth experience than before.

So get somebody to test it then. Best way to deal with this.


BTW, Ike's one of my secondaries, hence I lurk here and occasionally drop by for discussions.

 

[Steeler]

here's a video of bullet seed interrupting marth's multi-hit dancing blade. zamus' jab can do it as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_VTMP860yU&feature=channel_page

pretty sure it's one frame. maybe two.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

here's a video of bullet seed interrupting marth's multi-hit dancing blade. zamus' jab can do it as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_VTMP860yU&feature=channel_page

pretty sure it's one frame. maybe two.

Kirk's going to get the actual frame count. He can do that easily. Everyone just SHUT UP until then, and after he posts, NO MORE DISCUSSION ON PT. This is the 10th page. This is just getting crazy. We even have people from different boards telling the PT guys to smarten up. Freaking enough is freaking enough. Next post is Kirk's. I don't flipping care what you have to say, if you ain't Kirk, DON'T FLIPPING POST!

 

[Steeler]

o:

we still haven't come to any sort of conclusion on charizard though. i still have yet to see a solid answer from ike for charizard's flamethrower.

 

[YagamiLight]

We're moving on, two weeks is more than enough.

We can revisit PT at a later date.

 

[Kinzer]

Shall I go make the export to invite the Diddys over here, guys?

 

[YagamiLight]

Shall I go make the export to invite the Diddys over here, guys?

Sure Kinzer, go right ahead. Though ask them not to bring numbers into the debate, if possible.

 

[Kinzer]

Will do, searg.

 

[Kirk]

Answers to your inquiries:

Ivysaur's Bullet Seed Hit Frame: 4

Happy now? :D

Also, Ike can shield in between jabs and not be hit by bullet seed...i don't know if you asked that or not...but good to know regardless.

But yeah. Ike's jab is faster than Ivy's Bullet Seed.

Any other questions just ask.

*ducks for cover*

 

[Rykoshet]

Then there you go, finished.

 

[Steeler]

thank you for the info kirk. i don't really have any questions since it seems everyone wants me out of here. but discussing pokemon trainer IS discussing three characters at once. i'm a little disappointed that we spent so much time on it and nothing really came of it.

edit: here's a thread for anyone that wants to continue discussing it. i'd like to come to a conclusion. you can pretty much ignore the previous posts lol.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6133635#post6133635

i doubt any of you care enough to follow up, but i'll at least present the opportunity to you.

 

[ADHD]

It's slightly in diddy's favor IMO, like 45-55. Ike is really tough, I just camp him and try my best to space away from his sword. Diddy can go crazy on ike if he isn't careful, but the two ike's i've faced knew how to handle bananas and they didn't an alright job against me. Ike gets combo'd, hard. Diddy gets killed easily and ike is just generally annoying to deal with. My reasoning sucks.

 

[Rykoshet]

I'd say 60-40, diddy has a funny choice of being able to overwhelm ike or to just sit back and stuff approaches. A fast character that can actively camp, how silly. If diddy screws up, he can die at like 80 though. Chrome's a rather legit diddy.

 

[Kinzer]

Thread export made, here's my quick opinion on Diddy.

Final Destination is probably the last place you want to be against this monkey (maybe), and I'm not sure how much Ike can take advantage of bananas, but if it has anything to do with his powerful attaks, it's going to hrut bad when Ike gets one in.

Good Diddys aren't gonig to be throwing out Bananas like idiots, they'll be throwing them out so that you can't get control of them, and I know that Ike is no Sonic who can easily take control of items due to his lack of speed.

Diddy is a monster when he gets the momentum, Pop Gun ammunition can stop Quickdraw in place (less reason to use it in this fight), I think Nanerz can go through Aether (don't quote me on that) Diddy has very little ending lag on his dash attack, which leads into other moves.

Diddy is highly punishable if he overshoots the ledge. Diddy is very weak in terms of K.O. power, add the fact that Ike is heavy, you'll be living in longer than he will... so most of his kills are going to be from gimps. If you're pretty good at placing Fair, I'm sure you can swat Diddy out of his Barrel recovery... same stuff with his Side-B, just don't let him get onto you.

 

[•Col•]

I find that it's pretty easy to pick up banana's with Ike's dash attack...

Something I've been wondering though.... How is Ike's glide toss? And is it useful for anything? Since banana's are going to be out pretty often, I was curious if Ike could use them to his advantage or w/e.

 

[Rykoshet]

It doesnt exist.

 

[metroid1117]

If you're pretty good at placing Fair, I'm sure you can swat Diddy out of his Barrel recovery... same stuff with his Side-B, just don't let him get onto you.

FAir can interrupt his Barrel recovery (2:28), but the timing has to be really tight; I honestly didn't expect to hit him, I was just throwing it out there. In my opinion, it would be better to speed hug him and if he makes it onto the stage, try and punish him by using edgehopped QD to close the distance. Side+B is easily punished by DTilt if you get the timing down; last time I played a Diddy on Wi-Fi, I got him the majority of the time when he tried going for the edge with side+B. However, you have to be careful when edgeguarding the side+B; if they're close enough to the stage, they may just try to go through you with the side+B attack.

Personally, I think this is in Diddy's advantage; Ike just doesn't have the speed to take control over the bananas like other characters do, and he gets comboed pretty hard since he has no reliable combo-breaker attacks. Admittedly, Ike can kill Diddy pretty early and take advantage of his lack of killing power; however, Ike has a much harder time taking control and keeping the momentum of the match compared to Diddy.

 

[Luigi player]

What? I'd say... oh, no matchup rations

Anyway, imo Diddy ***** Ike. He can't really use bananas well and doesn't have any projectiles. His attacks are strong but slow. All he can do is A, A and A again (the jab combo).

Ike can't really recovery good and bananas just **** him.


I think Ike could try to jump over the bananas with nairs, those are annoying.

But yeah... otherwise Ike can't really do much... he just can't come past the bananas and it's difficult for him to even come near to Diddy.

 

[Palpi]

I have been watching some Diddy videos and definetely think it would be a hard match up, but it is not a guarenteed loss.

Diddy's vast banana locks / combos are very hard to endure yet even counter, but Ike's elaborate aerial game and his ability to jab combo / cancel and aerial combo could be his savior in this match up. (Like most match ups).

I think Ike would have to have unbeleivable spacing while on the offensive, but generally wait for Diddy to make the first move, since many of ike's moves are slow enough, even a autocancel nair or bair, to be punished by a quick throw of a Banana.

 

[Kayzee]

In my experience (Both as Diddy and as Ike in friendlies), Ike succumbs to bananas, and gets the CRAP combo'd out of him. It is very difficult for Ike to gain control of the match with Diddy zipping around, shooting peanuts, and glide tossing bananas everywhere.

On the other hand, Ike only needs to land about half the amount of attacks it takes Diddy before he's in the killing percentages, has range on top of range over Diddy, and Diddy's rocketbarrel recovery is pretty gimpable. (Beware of runaway rocketbarrels though! D: ) Then all it takes is one solid hit from nearly any of his attacks, and Diddy's gone.

Anyway, that's my input.

 

[The Derrit]

Diddy's vast banana locks / combos are very hard to endure yet even counter, but Ike's elaborate aerial game and his ability to jab combo / cancel and aerial combo could be his savior in this match up. (Like most match ups).

whaaaaaat?

useful aerial game? yes. elaborate not as much.

aerial combo?