Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[infernovia]

I like using Charizard's usmash, I am pretty sure it can lead into rocksmash at low percentages. Has guaranteed fthrow/bthrow to another grab at 0%. Again, watch out, he can get you off the stage really quick.

 

[Ussi]

Burrito, our CG on Squirtle isn't too game breaking. Have you ever realized platforms stop it? Unless we are on FD The CG isn't that helpful unless it's a part where no platforms are in our way.

 

[Deleted member]

things that **** PT

charizard- sidestep a lot, downthrow so he's above you. charizard gets ***** from below really bad.
ivysaur- grab a lot, jab sidesteps. you're faster than him (>_>) don't let him move
squirtle- stand in place and try to attack his attacks. shield air attacks, sidestep ground attacks. laugh at the squirtle player.

this game isn't that deep. sorry guys.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

things that **** PT

charizard- sidestep a lot, downthrow so he's above you. charizard gets ***** from below really bad.
ivysaur- grab a lot, jab sidesteps. you're faster than him (>_>) don't let him move
squirtle- stand in place and try to attack his attacks. shield air attacks, sidestep ground attacks. laugh at the squirtle player.

this game isn't that deep. sorry guys.

Charizard...
1) Charizard has a lot of sidesteping punishers... usmash,dsmash(kinda), jab combo, flamethrower, and of course, rock smash
2)how is ike gonna grab zard, his range is enough to play a defensive game where you will never be at ikes grab range.. and anyway dthrow doesnt own that much zard can just scape the followup by jumping, he has two of those left when you dthrow him

Ivysaur
1)Again, has the enough range to play out of ikes grab range
2)Ftilt> jab sidesteps
3) You are faster running and walking, not attacking

Squirtle
1)Squirtles postlag < ikes prelag
2) His air speed is enough to land out of grab range after a shielded aerial
3)Squirtle has dtilt for that, and dtilt crouches below ikes ftilt .. idk if jab, it would be awesome
4) That is super-effective, i havent realized how to beat that :/.. please tell me if you know

@Ussi: Yeah charizards followup game is kinda like ike, but zard has like two or three more options
And i didnt realize it was AB instead of AR....... LOL... now i know why Arturito "Rurito" didnt know why i called him like that... my mistake

 

[Steeler]

ugh i'd had a whole post typed out and then the computer shut down.

but anyway, AB, ike doesn't particularly like razor leaf, so why not use it? ike has to respond to it somehow, and even if ike powershields it, ivysaur will usually be in a better spot than it was before. razor leaf isn't a nonfactor here...but neither does it make the match. it's just something ivysaur will use to get inside ike's max range a little safer, because that's what ivy has to do in this matchup.

oh and you mentioned that ike had good OoS options...can you please list them? like...what's ike going to do if he normal shields a leaf and ivysaur is now close enough to dash grab or use a tilt or something? ftilt and dtilt are pretty slow...ivy can just approach with a running shield and it'll limit ike's options quite a bit. at the worst, you'll just ftilt ivy's shield and ivy won't be able to punish with anything but a leaf.

afaik, jab, grab, spot dodge, and aether are ike's only really quick OoS options. quick enough that the opponent can't consistently just dodge or shield it somehow.

being under ike = you are in the air. squirtle can get ike in the air.

ab had some other stuff that i have forgotten now. but afaik, anyone can airdodge in the middle of aether, so it's not a totally reliable edgeguard. and if you miss, ivy can tether the edge so you can't use it. not to mention that if ivysaur can keep pressuring with bairs or maybe get in a (risky) nair, ike will eventually be dragged far enough below or away from the stage that ivy's instant tether will gimp ike. it's not easy, but definitely plausible.

@ umby, to add to cris's post, charizard has a lot of spot dodge punishers. you'll be better off shielding most of the time, but you will be risking a shieldpoked rock smash or something. dthrow puts zard in a bad spot but what kinds of followups does he have on zard? zard has a second midair jump and decent aerial speed to help him get out of there as he air dodges. zard's throw setups are just as bad for ike, if not worse. if you try and jab ivy's sidesteps, you will likely get bullet seeded. if you try to attack squirtle's attacks, you'll fail miserably. ike's start up lag is, on average, like 2-3x longer than squirtle's. jab is the only thing that will straight up contend, which squirtle can shieldgrab, or roll through, or air dodge. ike's jab is most useful when both characters are on the ground. also, squirtle can "drift" its attack through the top of your shield so that it's harder to punish. it'll mix it up between just drifting backward outside of grab/jab range.

anyway, imo, for the squirtle v ike matchup, rate it without the grab release first, because it will not work on any stage with a platform...and any pt would just stage strike fd and smashville for the first match. you'll have to cp fd to really use it. the stage you are playing on affects that technique too much, you know what i mean? it's like saying bowser has a really close to neutral match on mk because of the grab release, or diddy ***** mk. whether or not bowser/mk is on fd makes a big difference, as does diddy/mk being on fd or not. you can't base it off of your best stage, because you have to assume that the other player won't let you take him there.

 

[Ussi]

Ike can OoS Bair quickly.

 

[Steeler]

ah, i see. thanks ussi. only useful if the pokemon is behind you, but good to know. squirtle won't be able to di through your shield as safely then, although squirtle is still a small target and has little lag behind his aerials.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

but anyway, AB, ike doesn't particularly like razor leaf, so why not use it? ike has to respond to it somehow, and even if ike powershields it, ivysaur will usually be in a better spot than it was before. razor leaf isn't a nonfactor here...but neither does it make the match. it's just something ivysaur will use to get inside ike's max range a little safer, because that's what ivy has to do in this matchup.

If your with in Ike's range you can get punished easily. Ivy's fast moves are on it back side or short ranged. Ike's second jab probably has as much range ans Ivy's Ftilt or more. No one ever approaches Ike with projectiles do you know why? because it puts them at a disadvantage. If the best use of razor leaf is to get close to Ike then I am tempted to say it is a non factor.

oh and you mentioned that ike had good OoS options...can you please list them? like...what's ike going to do if he normal shields a leaf and ivysaur is now close enough to dash grab or use a tilt or something? ftilt and dtilt are pretty slow...ivy can just approach with a running shield and it'll limit ike's options quite a bit. at the worst, you'll just ftilt ivy's shield and ivy won't be able to punish with anything but a leaf.

Will you stop saying this? PT mains have been told countless times that it can't happen your just being thickheaded and stupid now.

afaik, jab, grab, spot dodge, and aether are ike's only really quick OoS options. quick enough that the opponent can't consistently just dodge or shield it somehow.

Fsmash OoS is a favorite of the best Ike out there right now. His Utilt and Nair can be used OoS as well. Hell jab, grab, and Bair are probably enough since they are all great moves.

being under ike = you are in the air. squirtle can get ike in the air.

ab had some other stuff that i have forgotten now. but afaik, anyone can airdodge in the middle of aether, so it's not a totally reliable edgeguard. and if you miss, ivy can tether the edge so you can't use it. not to mention that if ivysaur can keep pressuring with bairs or maybe get in a (risky) nair, ike will eventually be dragged far enough below or away from the stage that ivy's instant tether will gimp ike. it's not easy, but definitely plausible.

I have no idea what afaik is but you probably don't, You can't just air dodge aether and get out this is only if your hit with the first hit of aether. You have to SDI out of it if that doesn't happen and Ike can follow your DI with aether. I never said Ike was edge guarding with aether though I said that all of Ivy's forms of edge guarding that you listed leave her open to aether and a death at 0%.

@ umby, to add to cris's post, charizard has a lot of spot dodge punishers. you'll be better off shielding most of the time, but you will be risking a shieldpoked rock smash or something. dthrow puts zard in a bad spot but what kinds of followups does he have on zard? zard has a second midair jump and decent aerial speed to help him get out of there as he air dodges. zard's throw setups are just as bad for ike, if not worse. if you try and jab ivy's sidesteps, you will likely get bullet seeded. if you try to attack squirtle's attacks, you'll fail miserably. ike's start up lag is, on average, like 2-3x longer than squirtle's. jab is the only thing that will straight up contend, which squirtle can shieldgrab, or roll through, or air dodge. ike's jab is most useful when both characters are on the ground. also, squirtle can "drift" its attack through the top of your shield so that it's harder to punish. it'll mix it up between just drifting backward outside of grab/jab range.

You make it sound like charizard is going to be reacting to Ike's shield with rock smash... I don't think umbreon meant just roll to get around he probably meant to roll around his moves.

If your above Ike then your in place for aether. If your air dodging like an idiot trying to get away then Ike can just have his way with you. The way you describe PT's options they all just seem to get very predictable.

anyway, imo, for the squirtle v ike matchup, rate it without the grab release first, because it will not work on any stage with a platform...and any pt would just stage strike fd and smashville for the first match. you'll have to cp fd to really use it. the stage you are playing on affects that technique too much, you know what i mean? it's like saying bowser has a really close to neutral match on mk because of the grab release, or diddy ***** mk. whether or not bowser/mk is on fd makes a big difference, as does diddy/mk being on fd or not. you can't base it off of your best stage, because you have to assume that the other player won't let you take him there.

FYI FD is probably Ike's worst starter but thanks for striking that. That just leaves Ike with most likely striking yoshi's and having a choice from BF and the 5th stage which ever it is. BF is Ike's best stage so you trying to make it there in order to avoid being chain grabbed won't work out to well. Ike has a great platform game with his Uair covering entire platforms forcing you to shield (if you roll or spot dodge you'll just get hit) this can shield poke as well. BF also makes Ike's aether a lot safer (which can do up to 24%) Ike can chose to land on platforms the floor or the ledge depending on where he is. If your on the top platform your a very easy target for this and its pretty much guaranteed to hit as it shield pokes very easily, since its a multi hit move you can't spot dodge or roll either.

BF also helps out Ike's recovery and it might be enough to cancel out charizard FT edge guard because he could throw aether very far into the stage.

Anyways with out the chain grab its probably 60-40 Ike to 65-35

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Actually, the CG on Squirtle works on more then FD. I know for a fact it works in the second stage of Castle Siege, and there are platforms there, as well as working at the 3rd stage of that level. Squirtle actually doesn't go that high up compared to most grab releases. I'm fairly sure it would work on Smashville and Lylat Cruise as those platforms are higher up then Battlefields. Delfino sounds very likely to work, Pictochat(sp?) would work depending on how the stage was like. Cornera would work as there are no platforms.

Those are just off the top of my head as well. And the walk-off Fair would work on any stage with a ledge.

 

[Guilhe]

I’ve just went in training and analyzed Squirtle’s jab and Bullet Seed animations at 0.5x speed, this is what I’ve concluded:

• Squirtle jab is really fast. I was able to spot just two frames, one in the beginning and one in the end. In the first one he stretches his palm forward, pulling it back in the final frame (a slap). It might be possible that the hitbox becomes active as Squirtle stretches his palm forward.

• Ivysaur is much slower than Squirtle’s jab. I could easily identify a sequence of preparatory actions (a small circle of light appears in the ground around Ivy, he position himself for firing the bullet seed, he fires it). Unless someone screwed badly when programming this move, the hitbox won’t be ready at frame 1 like PT players stated.

 

[MysticKenji]

half-speed in training mode isn't accurate

 

[Ussi]

65/35 I think may be a bit excessive. 6/4 sounds more right. 75/25 with a chain grab viable stage.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

yah guilhe training mode adds frames in order to keep the game running smoothly. And It doesn't add like 3 frames for every one when in 1/4th speed it adds some weird *** number.

 

[Toby.]

• Ivysaur is much slower than Squirtle’s jab. I could easily identify a sequence of preparatory actions (a small circle of light appears in the ground around Ivy, he position himself for firing the bullet seed, he fires it). Unless someone screwed badly when programming this move, the hitbox won’t be ready at frame 1 like PT players stated.

Those preparatory actions are the initial popup of the move, where the enemy is launched into the air. The first seed doesn't come out in those early frames, but the 'launch box' does.

lol lunch box.

 

[Guilhe]

half-speed in training mode isn't accurate

You’re right. I’ve tried it now with ¼ and I was capable of seeing the frames more clearly. Squirtle does hit opponents as he stretches his arm, and though Ivysaur doesn’t fire the seeds right at the first frame, she does hit them positioning them over her.

yah guilhe training mode adds frames in order to keep the game running smoothly. And It doesn't add like 3 frames for every one when in 1/4th speed it adds some weird *** number.

I just wanted to see if those moves were that fast, and they are.

 

[Steeler]

If your with in Ike's range you can get punished easily. Ivy's fast moves are on it back side or short ranged. Ike's second jab probably has as much range ans Ivy's Ftilt or more. No one ever approaches Ike with projectiles do you know why? because it puts them at a disadvantage. If the best use of razor leaf is to get close to Ike then I am tempted to say it is a non factor.

ivy's dtilt comes out in about 4 frames, ftilt in about 8. that isn't slow, and they are disjointed. not sure about the range comparison between ike's jab and ivy's ftilt though.

i see what you are saying about projectiles though. but you are trying to compare razor leaf to like...falco's laser. they serve different purposes. look...you say razor leaf is too slow to bother ike yet too fast for ivysaur to follow up with? ivysaur can indeed follow up. i'm not the only one being "thickheaded" and "stupid" here.

Will you stop saying this? PT mains have been told countless times that it can't happen your just being thickheaded and stupid now.

that punishing with a leaf can't happen? well that'd be the ONLY option because, as you've said, ftilt has lots of range and good pushback on shields. i didn't say the leaf would be a GOOD option, just the only one. ivy would have to reset its spacing there. i'm not completely sure of what you are referring to or calling me stupid for. maybe i'm even stupider then, eh?

anyway, so running shield is the best approach for like...half of the cast lol. so let's say ivysaur dashes in with a shield, outside jab range. what is ike's best option here? jab twice to hit the shield with the second? maybe jab cancel it into a grab? full hop retreat fair? you'll just hit the shield and zone yourself backwards, closer to the edge (or let ivysaur back away from the edge, depending).

OoS Ivy can SH nair/uair/fair (similar to ike's fair, but with less range), grab, bullet seed, jab, dtilt, dsmash (which isn't very good lol) and vine whip, so keep that in mind.

i mean, i see that the retreating fair is not very punishable, all ivy can do is toss a leaf out afterward, maybe try a dash grab or chase a little bit so ike isn't as far away, but the fair won't accomplish much if it just hits my shield.

ike doesn't automatically have an advantage when someone is in range of his sword lol. otherwise he wouldn't be middle of mid tier.

Fsmash OoS is a favorite of the best Ike out there right now. His Utilt and Nair can be used OoS as well. Hell jab, grab, and Bair are probably enough since they are all great moves.

fsmash OoS just sounds like a mindgame to me. whatever you hit the shield with shouldn't have so much ending lag that you get hit by the fsmash! utilt sounds nice, iirc it comes out faster than his other two tilts. utilt could be nice if the opponent is directly above you for some reason...i can't think of why any of the three pokes would want to do that though.

I have no idea what afaik is but you probably don't,

lolwut it means as far as i know. why would i use an acronym i don't know...

You can't just air dodge aether and get out this is only if your hit with the first hit of aether. You have to SDI out of it if that doesn't happen and Ike can follow your DI with aether. I never said Ike was edge guarding with aether though I said that all of Ivy's forms of edge guarding that you listed leave her open to aether and a death at 0%.

so what you are saying is air dodging right after the first hit? i mean, i've air dodged near the apex before and avoided the final spike hit, so idk. and my bad, i misread it as ike trying to edgeguard ivysaur. in that case, i guess if ivy gets spiked by the last hit it'll die, although ike will as well if you aren't anywhere near the edge. naturally, edgeguarding ike right below the edge isn't too smart a thing to do.

You make it sound like charizard is going to be reacting to Ike's shield with rock smash... I don't think umbreon meant just roll to get around he probably meant to roll around his moves.

eh, well he can. the rock comes out really quickly. no frame data here but once the rock is out, the hitbox is there as well. it has to be in single digit frames though.

If your above Ike then your in place for aether. If your air dodging like an idiot trying to get away then Ike can just have his way with you. The way you describe PT's options they all just seem to get very predictable.

true about the aether. and how is ike going to have his way with charizard though? ike's aerials aren't particularly quick, i'll just air dodge if i see you wind up some kind of attack. that doesn't seem idiotic to me!

FYI FD is probably Ike's worst starter but thanks for striking that. That just leaves Ike with most likely striking yoshi's and having a choice from BF and the 5th stage which ever it is. BF is Ike's best stage so you trying to make it there in order to avoid being chain grabbed won't work out to well. Ike has a great platform game with his Uair covering entire platforms forcing you to shield (if you roll or spot dodge you'll just get hit) this can shield poke as well. BF also makes Ike's aether a lot safer (which can do up to 24%) Ike can chose to land on platforms the floor or the ledge depending on where he is. If your on the top platform your a very easy target for this and its pretty much guaranteed to hit as it shield pokes very easily, since its a multi hit move you can't spot dodge or roll either.

that's interesting. why is FD a bad stage for ike? no platforms for usmash to use and the opponent has more angles of approach?

BF also helps out Ike's recovery and it might be enough to cancel out charizard FT edge guard because he could throw aether very far into the stage.

mmmm maybe but i don't think ike's pingas sword is as long as max ft.

Anyways with out the chain grab its probably 60-40 Ike to 65-35

that's what you think eh? but what about the fact that...okay, ike has a good spacer in jab. but it's not unavoidable. squirtle can really rack up damage quickly if it slips by your defenses even once.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's defense and offense is using Nair. It's not limiting yourself it's called "gay" cause it works. Nair is unpunishable when spaced. It auto cancels as well. Yes Squirtle is faster than nair however, Thats not punishing.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

i see what you are saying about projectiles though. but you are trying to compare razor leaf to like...falco's laser. they serve different purposes. look...you say razor leaf is too slow to bother ike yet too fast for ivysaur to follow up with? ivysaur can indeed follow up. i'm not the only one being "thickheaded" and "stupid" here.

I never said razor leaf is to fast for Ivy to follow up I just said that if you slow it down then it becomes less threatening. Yes Ivy can follow up but your pretty much saying: lol shield razor leaf and your dead. Shielding razor leaf does not put Ike into a disadvantage or a bad possition, if your close enough to fllow up then Ike was close enough to just out prioritize it.

that punishing with a leaf can't happen? well that'd be the ONLY option because, as you've said, ftilt has lots of range and good pushback on shields. i didn't say the leaf would be a GOOD option, just the only one. ivy would have to reset its spacing there. i'm not completely sure of what you are referring to or calling me stupid for. maybe i'm even stupider then, eh?

Yes, punishing Ftilt with razor leaf can't happen. It's an option that can't work. I'm calling you dumb because you keep saying shielded Ftilt = razor leaf over and over and over and over again. Ike will be able to dodge this easily.

anyway, so running shield is the best approach for like...half of the cast lol. so let's say ivysaur dashes in with a shield, outside jab range. what is ike's best option here? jab twice to hit the shield with the second? maybe jab cancel it into a grab? full hop retreat fair? you'll just hit the shield and zone yourself backwards, closer to the edge (or let ivysaur back away from the edge, depending).

hitiing the shield with Fair will just deplete it. You could also hit with ftilt or nair or just dash grab.

OoS Ivy can SH nair/uair/fair (similar to ike's fair, but with less range), grab, bullet seed, jab, dtilt, dsmash (which isn't very good lol) and vine whip, so keep that in mind.

none of these work against fair and ftilt though and very few if any work on nair like ussi said.

i mean, i see that the retreating fair is not very punishable, all ivy can do is toss a leaf out afterward, maybe try a dash grab or chase a little bit so ike isn't as far away, but the fair won't accomplish much if it just hits my shield.

It will deplete the shield and hurt Ike in no way. you won't be shileding every fair as well though.

ike doesn't automatically have an advantage when someone is in range of his sword lol. otherwise he wouldn't be middle of mid tier.

he pretty much does its just very hard getting in here because people usually can camp away from ike.

fsmash OoS just sounds like a mindgame to me. whatever you hit the shield with shouldn't have so much ending lag that you get hit by the fsmash! utilt sounds nice, iirc it comes out faster than his other two tilts. utilt could be nice if the opponent is directly above you for some reason...i can't think of why any of the three pokes would want to do that though.

works on BS, charged too. Utilt has decent horizontal range, It's more than Ike's jab. Down tilt is just as fast as utilt too.

lolwut it means as far as i know. why would i use an acronym i don't know...

I though it would be like that so i meant it as far as you don't know.

so what you are saying is air dodging right after the first hit? i mean, i've air dodged near the apex before and avoided the final spike hit, so idk. and my bad, i misread it as ike trying to edgeguard ivysaur. in that case, i guess if ivy gets spiked by the last hit it'll die, although ike will as well if you aren't anywhere near the edge. naturally, edgeguarding ike right below the edge isn't too smart a thing to do.

Ike usually recovers right under the stage pretty much every time at high percents. Taking Ivy with him is also a great tactic if he just killed squirtle or he is at a much higher percent than ivy.

eh, well he can. the rock comes out really quickly. no frame data here but once the rock is out, the hitbox is there as well. it has to be in single digit frames though.

it still doesn't work that way still ike won't be using his shield to attack he will be reacting with it to zard's attacks with it. If he reacts to a rock smash that way then yes it can poke. But it won't be zard fmash > shield > rock smash poke.

true about the aether. and how is ike going to have his way with charizard though? ike's aerials aren't particularly quick, i'll just air dodge if i see you wind up some kind of attack. that doesn't seem idiotic to me!

bair comes out in 7 frames.

that's interesting. why is FD a bad stage for ike? no platforms for usmash to use and the opponent has more angles of approach?

the opponet can camp more and this way there are less angles for Ike to approach with. Plus no aether tricks.

mmmm maybe but i don't think ike's pingas sword is as long as max ft.

The sword reaches out as about a body length infront of that ramp at the ledge and then Ike just rides it to get on the stage. Plus like I said Ike can go on a stages lip and then move side ways to get into the ledge.

that's what you think eh? but what about the fact that...okay, ike has a good spacer in jab. but it's not unavoidable. squirtle can really rack up damage quickly if it slips by your defenses even once.

Ike doesn't just have a good spacer, hell jab isn't even that. Ike has tons of great spacers and a very solid defensive that works well on squirtle. Yes he can get by but squirtle will be taking just as much damage or more trying to get in. Plus every grounded move that gets shielded can lead into a jab and at higher percents jab > Utilt which could kill at 80%. Then theres the fact that squirtles best kill move Dthrow won't kill him by DIing up (no aerial for recovery or anything) won't kill him till 160% if Ike DI's up. If he is at the edge of the stage facing inward Ike can DI inward and live even higher.

Add to that fatigue (when it happens) and ike can live to tremendous percents.

edit: took me for ever to type this =\ was on the phone with my dad for an hour and had to use 1 finger to type.

 

[Ussi]

you can't AD Ike... When he does nair and uair, they last longer than everyone's AD.

And burrito, NO JOHNS!!! I'm always on my phone doing this!!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

AB, you keep saying that ftilt beats everytihng and is a very good spacer, i disagree
i thnik taht ivy's oos sh nair, bullet seed,jab,gran and dtilt are all faster than ike's ftilt, so you cant rely too much on it
And wait... did you just said that ike has an advantage against almost anyone without a spammy projectile????
And to ussi... you cant airdodge those, you must hit ike before he hits you with those

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It doesn't matter if you disagree those things won't hit Ike after a spaced Ftilt. You also have nothing to stop us from tipping with it or other moves as all we have to do is walk back a bit.

It doesn't matter if those moves are faster they won't reach him. I've already told you spot dodging and shielding do nothing against Ike.

It's Shield stun lag/spot dodge lag/PS(for a few moves) + walking forward + w/e move start up lag > Ftilt ending lag.

The only characters with out a spammy projectile that have an advantage over Ike are warrio, MK, Marth, and maybe G&W but he might be a neutral, everyone else is neutral or in Ike's advantage

You won't always hit Ike before he hits you and if both hit boxes are out guess who's going to win. You don't even know when 90% of your moves start.

edit: even luigi who has a spammy projectile is at a disadvantage against Ike. Same with Ivy even though hers is a bit more useful.

 

[Steeler]

luigi has no range on anything though. that's the biggest difference between ivy and luigi.

Ike Ftilt

Hit: 17-19
End: 58
IASA: 56

how does ivysaur not have time to punish that after a spot dodge? lol spot dodges universally last about 25 frames.

let's suppose, for the sake of argument, to give ike as much of a cushion as possible, that ivysaur's spot dodge activates on frame 17, although this will rarely be the case. fast forward about 25 frames to frame 42. ivysaur now has 14 frames of lag advantage to hit ike still in ftilt cooldown. according to the (flawed) frame data thread by firemario, dash attack comes out around frame 4. a dash grab is also an option. walk a step or two and ftilt/dtilt are now in range. dash to SH nair. hell, ivy could even run up and bullet seed, provided ivy didn't spot dodge on the exact frame that ike hits with ftilt.

the notion that ftilt is unpunishable is silly, and i should have bothered to look at the ike frame data thread before now.

also

1st Jab (A)

Hit: 3-4
End: 24
IASA: 17

2nd Jab (A, A)

Hit: 19-20 (With 5 frames Hitlag)
End: 48 (With 10 frames Hitlag)
IASA: 41 (With 10 frames Hitlag)

3rd Jab (A, A, A)

Hit: 38-40 (With 10 frames Hitlag)
End: 77 (With 15 frames Hitlag)
IASA: 72 (With 15 frames Hitlag)

sure seems to be some room there for the 1 frame bullet seed hit. if ivysaur shields a jab, it can immediately shield drop to bullet seed. spot dodge would work the same way.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Bullet seed does not start on frame 1. Until you get actual frame data and not estimations, you stick with the 4 frames found by the one topic. Proof, even if in a topic where a few frame counts are off > estimations. Especially sense it's hard to be off by 3 frames. 1 frame I can see, but 3? That ain't happening that often, if at all.

 

[Steeler]

i'd take guilhe's estimation over that thread. the firemario thread has had various character boards come in and disprove parts of it, so i like to use it as an estimate unless there have been further tests on it to disprove it.

 

[Guilhe]

Please don’t argue over my estimations. Maybe someone who can record could follow Colaya’s example and record an Ivy attempt to punish Ike’s Ftilt both in air and ground?

 

[Steeler]

well, assuming the ike frame data thread is correct, there's 37 frames of vulnerability that ivysaur can take advantage of. you don't need a video to prove that it's plenty of time for a counter attack.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

luigi has no range on anything though. that's the biggest difference between ivy and luigi.

Ike Ftilt

Hit: 17-19
End: 58
IASA: 56

how does ivysaur not have time to punish that after a spot dodge? lol spot dodges universally last about 25 frames.

let's suppose, for the sake of argument, to give ike as much of a cushion as possible, that ivysaur's spot dodge activates on frame 17, although this will rarely be the case. fast forward about 25 frames to frame 42. ivysaur now has 14 frames of lag advantage to hit ike still in ftilt cooldown. according to the (flawed) frame data thread by firemario, dash attack comes out around frame 4. a dash grab is also an option. walk a step or two and ftilt/dtilt are now in range. dash to SH nair. hell, ivy could even run up and bullet seed, provided ivy didn't spot dodge on the exact frame that ike hits with ftilt.

the notion that ftilt is unpunishable is silly, and i should have bothered to look at the ike frame data thread before now.

Those moves are just going to be hitting air. Plus if its flawed then those moves could be lower of course you have no idea and think your guesses are better than his testing.

That jab thing was stupid too. It doesn't happen. Kirk doesn't even test hitstun.

I give up though. The PT boards are probably worse than the lucario boards now you guys just have it in your heads that Ike is slow and you can punish everything he has. You think you'll shield everything Ike has and that you'll be reacting to Ike's shield with grabs and moves that shield poke easily. You think that Ike sucks at spacing, you think that you are going to be out speeding every single move he has. You throw the only frame data you have away as trash simply because it doesn't agree with your wild guesses. And you just make wild guesses at every turn like O we can just bullet seed in the middle of the best jab combo in the game and squirtles Dthrow will kill you at 120%.

PT sucks as a character, he isn't worth this much time, and Ike is better than him. That's all that matters now.

 

[prOAPC]

sorry guys, i came to late to talk about the Lucas match up
some Lucas players said that PK Fire stops Ike's side B and put him in a free fall state
look at this video, at 1:04, were both side B colides, but Ike didn't take damage, imagine what would happen is that occur, but in the air
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fw9qs-EZg8
i know, old fight, bad ike, you don't use side b to recover, whatever

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Those moves are just going to be hitting air. Plus if its flawed then those moves could be lower of course you have no idea and think your guesses are better than his testing.

That jab thing was stupid too. It doesn't happen. Kirk doesn't even test hitstun.

I give up though. The PT boards are probably worse than the lucario boards now you guys just have it in your heads that Ike is slow and you can punish everything he has. You think you'll shield everything Ike has and that you'll be reacting to Ike's shield with grabs and moves that shield poke easily. You think that Ike sucks at spacing, you think that you are going to be out speeding every single move he has. You throw the only frame data you have away as trash simply because it doesn't agree with your wild guesses. And you just make wild guesses at every turn like O we can just bullet seed in the middle of the best jab combo in the game and squirtles Dthrow will kill you at 120%.

PT sucks as a character, he isn't worth this much time, and Ike is better than him. That's all that matters now.

LOL...
1) You know the feeling when you go to a board and some stupid people are like... ZOMG (PT or ike) SUCKS ITS OUR ADVANTAGE LOLOLOL !!11!!!1!!!... so why are you doing it now?
2) We dont think ike sucks at spacing, we think hes not as good as you think (and IMO you think hes as good as it as marth, i suggest you to go and play as marth, you WILL see a diference)
3) Are we the stuborn?? You think ike has an advantage against anyone without a sapmmy projectile/mk/marth... that just doesnt fit in my mind dude...

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

LOL...
1) You know the feeling when you go to a board and some stupid people are like... ZOMG (PT or ike) SUCKS ITS OUR ADVANTAGE LOLOLOL !!11!!!1!!!... so why are you doing it now?
2) We dont think ike sucks at spacing, we think hes not as good as you think (and IMO you think hes as good as it as marth, i suggest you to go and play as marth, you WILL see a diference)
3) Are we the stuborn?? You think ike has an advantage against anyone without a sapmmy projectile/mk/marth... that just doesnt fit in my mind dude...

1. Your doing it to us much much more. Seriously for the squitle match up all you've said is lol your slow our advantage. Nothing else, you didn't even refute the list where squitle had 3 pros which weren't major cons against Ike. Your attitude was pretty much o well since its Ike those 3 things are probably enough to own him.
2. He is almost as good as marth, your pretty much saying you know our character better than us.
3. Once again saying you know our character better than us. Who cares if it doesn't fit in your head you don't use him or even know how he fights. Half of the PT boards think the way PT forces Ike to fight is a bad thing for him when it really places him in his best way of fighting.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

1. No im not, i know ike, his potential and his limitations, and i never said that squirlte had an advantage, i think its like 55/45 for ike...sure ike has range,weight and power, but squirtle has movility, speed, grab range, better followups and hes hard to hit because of his size.. and i dont refute a lot of stuff because i dont like making walls of text
2. Marth is better spacing because he is way faster
3. What is exactly that way of fighting you are reffering to??
And btw, you say a lot that ivy is too slow, he may have slow movility, but his attacks are very fast, and that matters more.

 

[Steeler]

blah blah blah

why would ivysaur's attacks be hitting the air? at the very least you can dash attack or dash grab...at the very least. your argument was that shieldstun (true) and spot dodge lag were too much to punish ike's ftilt. the spot dodge argument seems pretty flawed to me because the numbers don't add up in that case. those numbers SHOW that ike's ftilt is pretty slow. that's not opinion, that's fact.

bullet seed won't interrupt a continuous jab with all three jabs hitting. i should have clarified. but jab cancels seem pretty vulnerable. and IF ivysaur shields a jab (he won't shield it every time, i'm not making that argument), ivy can bullet seed out of shield.

but if ike tries jab locking, i'm almost positive that bullet seed can hit after the missed jab.

anyway ike does have good spacing. but some of it is punishable. his tilts, mainly. squirtle can't punish it as well as either ivy or charizard if ike's spacing is perfect (ie max ftilt).

@ cris. squirtle has a disadvantage, it isn't 55/45 ike.

@ AB about frame data. i've taken the firemario thread for everything except bullet seed, which i have reason to do. the firemario dude didn't even do it himself, he just c/p'd from some japanese site iirc. and i now use your thread for ike's stuff.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

1. I was talking about the PT boards in general. Squirltle also has the exact same running speed as Ike his mobility is only better in the air. His follows up are only better at low percents too once Ike is over 100% squirtle has the same combos Ike does. He isn't that hard to hit because of his size since Ike has huge hit boxes. I don't think squirtle has very good grab range IIRC but it doesn't really matter as your throws and grab follow ups aren't as good as ours. I'm tempted to think that Ike's Dthrow can kill squirtle just as fast and squitle's can kill Ike.

2. Did you read what I said? "He is almost as good as marth." meaning marth is better. Ike has more range than marth to make up for some of the speed.

3. Defensive pretty much. Things like Ike has to play defensive trough out this match or Ike can't move around much and has to stay grounded, this pretty much puts him into an advantage.

I've only said Ivy has slow mobility are you even listening to what we tell you?


edit: I've always said that it's spot dodge/shieldstun lag + walking forward + start up lag > Ftilt lag. Yes a spot dodge ends faster than an Ftilt but a spot dodge won't hurt Ike. I might be willing to agree with your new dash attack thing since I didn't know it was that fast but for about a week now you've all been saying Ftilt = razor leaf.

I think we had agreed that BS could get out of a jab cancel and a lock a few days ago I don't know why you brought it up again... Anyways if your always trying to get out of this with BS this can get very very very predictable and end up with Ivy getting punished by an Fsmash. If you open your ears you can probably hear the B button being mashed down over and over.

ok so fire mario didn't do the testing how ever pretty much all of the Ike data on there is the same as ours so I'm pretty sure the Japanese did a good job with things.

 

[Steeler]

squirtle has almost double the grab range that ike has. he can also get out of ike's setups better than ike can get out of squirtle's because of the differences in air speed and size. if squirtle fthrows ike at low percent, all of ike's aerials take at least 15 frames to activate, except bair, which won't cover ike's front/bottom anyway. squirtle can also immediately punish air dodges because of how much quicker the aerials are. even when fatigued, squirtle's throws do more damage than ike's, lol. i don't think you looked at squirtle's throws before you made that comment, AB.

squirtle's grab game > ike's. neither one is spectacular.

aside from dash attack, ivysaur can also punish ftilt with an fsmash or dash grab after spot dodging. ivy will have a minimum of 6-10 frames to walk before trying to do a tilt or something. the spacing and when spot dodge activates will increase that window. but if ivysaur is slightly closer, he won't even need to walk to hit with ftilt/dtilt/jab. so regardless of ike's ftilt spacing, dash grab, dash attack, and fsmash are reliable punishers, while the tilts will be reliable slightly inside ftilt's range.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

there you go again pulling numbers out of your ***.

So Ike has a chain grab on squirtle and squitle does 2% more with his throws than Ike does. Your right squirtle does have a much better grab game.

 

[Palpi]

I am not going to lie, but for both sides, arguing match ups based on theory especially for ike is a bit one sided. Ike is a cut and dry character when it comes to whats works and what doesn't, its all about play style and...metamindgames.

I don't think it is necesary to give squirtle 55-45, 60-40 is rightfully earned by ike and it still is a slight advantage.

 

[Guilhe]

Steeler, a smart Ike will not attempt to interrupt your aerials with his owns when you’re too close to him, that would be just too stupid. Consider Luigi Uthrow example at medium percentages, Ike doesn’t fly too far and Luigi can attempt two aerials without being punished for it. Will Ike attempt to fight back? No. He’ll strafe away and regain his ground.

Now, before someone points out “Hey, but Luigi is a very different character than Squirtle!”. Yeah, I know, it was just a very similar and explanatory situation.

 

[HeroMystic]

Has Charizard even been discussed yet...?

 

[Kinzer]

Not as much as the other three.

 

[HeroMystic]

Well it seems like this discussion is going in circles...

Come to a conclusion peeps...