Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Kinzer]

We're screwed, Burrito is as stubborn as a boulder is immovable, and we're all pulling facts from our ***es, this will never get done.

 

[Ussi]

:/ this is why the Ike boards originally decided to not discuss numbers.. But Light had to make numbers "important" thus brought this upon on. I don't even care about numbers, right now they are all opinion/theprycrafting. But we're arguing on what can or can't be done. I know we have no other way but we're both getting carried away.

I stop caring, this is coming out of my Persona 4 playtime.

 

[YagamiLight]

:/ this is why the Ike boards originally decided to not discuss numbers.. But Light had to make numbers "important" thus brought this upon on. I don't even care about numbers, right now they are all opinion/theprycrafting. But we're arguing on what can or can't be done. I know we have no other way but we're both getting carried away.

I stop caring, this is coming out of my Persona 4 playtime.

Please don't blame me Ussi, I just tossed in numbers due to mounting pressure to quantify the match-ups. You know full well that I hate numbers.

Anyways back to random stuff for finals week.

 

[Ussi]

Oh forgive me I didn't mean to blame you. But you did open the number discussion :/. I had a poor choice of words.

it's more the people who are agruing aka me and burrito and w/e PT mainer is here.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I actually disliked numbers this time around. Not match up ones but frame data. It's so anoying when people just make it up. Hey guys if we say Ike's Fsmash comes out on frame 1 I bet you it will make him look good lets just stick with that!

I think its time to move on though its already been like two weeks and we usually finish a character in 2 days.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Well Ussi, numbers are pretty hard, but are important because of thats the best way to describe the matchups....
And w/e PT mainer here is like just me and steeler
@AB: Squirtles grab game is better than ikes because squirtles throws have better followups, deal more damage and is easier to land a grab because of squirtles grab range ( the same as marth) and movility, o yeah, and hydrograbing, if you shield a shellshifit in an attempt to shield an hydroplane you can get hydorgrabed

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^Link to topic proving Squirtle has Marth's grab range please. Because I ain't seeing it happening.

 

[MysticKenji]

^Link to topic proving Squirtle has Marth's grab range please. Because I ain't seeing it happening.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196207

0.5 blocks
-Peach
-Diddy Kong
-R.O.B.
-Kirby
-Squirtle
-Jigglypuff
-Marth

0.33 blocks
-Ganondorf
-Pit
-Falco
-Wolf
-Ike
-Ness
-Mr. Game & Watch

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

so it isn't twice as big as Ike's grab range. One more thing the PT boards made up. The longer this goes on the more lies are unveiled.

I still think Ike's grab game is better as one of our grabs is probably going to hurt as much as 10 of squirtles. Chain grab is just to good against someone who barely has a better recovery than us and squirtle's follow ups are only good at low percents once your above a 100 I think his grab game becomes worthless. Squirtle's ground mobility is the same as Ike's too.

 

[metroid1117]

Squirtle's ground mobility is the same as Ike's too.

Not if they use hydroplaning. But yes, if you compare running speeds, Squirtle and Ike run at exactly the same speed, as proven by Mew2King.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

meh Ike can do the same with QD especially if its just something like running forward and turning around. Fox trotting also serves a very similar purpose.

TL:DR version of M2K's thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNdLECu0Zh4

 

[Guilhe]

I think it’s safe to say we’re not going to discuss strategies related to this matchup anymore. Through pages and pages we’ve been comparing these two characters attributes, seeking to prove a natural advantage that would only be useful for discussing ratios or tier placement. Let’s move on to Diddy, before Umbreon start banning our *****.

 

[HeroMystic]

We haven't even talked about Charizard yet...

 

[Kinzer]

Here ya go:

Quickdraw - You are in denial if you're still using this and you know your fighting Charizard.

Flamerthrow is impossible to directly punish due to it's range at startup.

Rock Smash owns, Counter works wonders against that.

Charizards Fly sometimes doesn't sweetspot, take advantage of that.

It can go either way when it coems to who is recovering and who is gimping who.

Offstage is the last place you want to be when fighting Charizard.

you're better at close range combat, Charizard is decent at keeping you away from there, get inside him, and you should be fine.

Should be enough, if anybody else wants to add one liner facts, be my guest, we've been at this long enough, let's move on to Diddy who we might potentially be seeing in the soon future for a lot of reasons.

 

[YagamiLight]

Quickdraw - You are in denial if you're still using this and you know your fighting Charizard.

Wait what? It was shown that QD is good against Flamethrower.

In any case, I'll change characters sometime tomorrow.

 

[Kinzer]

Wait what? It was shown that QD is good against Flamethrower.

In any case, I'll change characters sometime tomorrow.

This is when the Chiarizard is ******** enough to let the Flame die down to it's absolute minimum, otherwise the embers from the FT leave Chariard unpunishable via Quickdraw.

 

[YagamiLight]

Letting go of the Flamethrower has a noticeable cool down time, so QD still can hit him even if he doesn't deplete the move. It's win win.

 

[Steeler]

Steeler, a smart Ike will not attempt to interrupt your aerials with his owns when you’re too close to him, that would be just too stupid. Consider Luigi Uthrow example at medium percentages, Ike doesn’t fly too far and Luigi can attempt two aerials without being punished for it. Will Ike attempt to fight back? No. He’ll strafe away and regain his ground.

Now, before someone points out “Hey, but Luigi is a very different character than Squirtle!”. Yeah, I know, it was just a very similar and explanatory situation.

good point. however, squirtle is better than luigi at punishing air dodges.

and luigi is pretty similar to squirtle. idk why some like comparing luigi to ivysaur.

squirtle has almost double the grab range that ike has.

(insert proof that squirtle's range is .6 and ike's is .33, which is the exact same proof i looked at as i made that post, to make sure that my statement was correct)

so it isn't twice as big as Ike's grab range. One more thing the PT boards made up. The longer this goes on the more lies are unveiled. (blablabla accusatory stuff attacking me)

hilarious i hope you realize that you look like a fool right now.

what lies are you referring to? ftilt can be punished, just look at the numbers. i'm using frame data from both firemario's thread and your ike thread, EXCEPT in the case of bullet seed. and there is logic behind that. regardless, it doesn't make a difference most of the time anyway, since jab is the only thing that ike has that even comes close.

frame data is the most important part of matchup discussions, because it is unbiased and factual, assuming it's correct. even if it's incorrect, it gives a great approximation for how quick each character and their moves are.

it seems as if you aren't even bothering to look at the numbers and resources that we have available, and just arguing on conjecture and the like. i'm guilty of the same thing, but at least i'm trying to bring in some factual numbers. ask me about any of my "false numbers" and i'll give you the info i used to get there. i'm not tossing out numbers at random, that'd be completely idiotic. if i did that, i'd say ike's fsmash starts on frame 30 (i have no idea when it actually starts).

anyway

ike > squirtle 6 - 4 seems pretty much agreed upon.

let's just say ivysaur and ike are neutral, mkay? i'm willing to compromise.

charizard. flamethrower is a huge hassle for ike. i don't think he has a real answer to it. quick draw vs flamethrower will rarely ever come up because competent charizards know that it isn't safe to stand there and hope they run into it. no no, the real reason to use ft in this matchup is AGGRESSIVELY. quick draw won't matter at that point.

charizard's spacing tools are a huge boon in this matchup because ike lacks any projectiles. off stage, charizard's recovery is clearly less limited, so he is at less danger when recovering and can also be more aggressive when edgeguarding. according to firemario's thread, all aerials come out in single digit frames, except for dair.

i think those are the advantages charizard has in this matchup. offstage advantage and at medium range (ie at the point where jabs are not safe). up close ike's jab is better, while charizard's grab is much better. i don't know that either character is safe on shield here. i'd say ike is a little better here, but not by much.

both characters hate being in the air because of blindspots, although charizard is a lot more well equipped to hit the opponent instead of relying on just getting out of the way. charizard has an extra jump to use and more aerial speed than ike does. i promise that this isn't another one of my lies!

 

[PkTrainerCris]

LOL...
AB said over and over that ivys movility was too bad to punish well spaced ike attacks.... i tihnk he didnt see this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=152360
According to that, ivy's ground speed is superior than ike's, both running and walking... so its easier for ivy walk to a zone where he can punish than to ike walk to a zone where stuff like ftilt tips... so ivy has more ground speed and attacks speed.... ike only has superior aerial movility, and his only fast aerial is bair, which just hits behind you.
I think its 6/4 ivys adv
And shellshifting>>>>quick draw stuff

 

[Steeler]

quick draw and shellshifting aren't used for the same thing :s ike doesn't use quick draw to move around and bait stuff lol

good points about the ground speeds though.

 

[Guilhe]

quick draw and shellshifting aren't used for the same thing :s ike doesn't use quick draw to move around and bait stuff lol

Wait what? So for what would we use it for? Attacking? Recovering? QD has no ending lag when it does not hit, meaning we could jab or use our tilts right after. It also makes Ike slide through the stage when he performs a “soft landing”. Never heard of the Grand Viper?

QD can only be used for moving around and baiting, just maybe for recovering.

We haven't even talked about Charizard yet...

We've had like two pages of discussion over Charizard, you'll just have to look for that.

 

[Kinzer]

It's options are limited, none the less.

 

[Steeler]

whaaaaaaaaaaat i've never seen an ike just quick draw back and forth lol

 

[Guilhe]

charizard. flamethrower is a huge hassle for ike. i don't think he has a real answer to it. quick draw vs flamethrower will rarely ever come up because competent charizards know that it isn't safe to stand there and hope they run into it. no no, the real reason to use ft in this matchup is AGGRESSIVELY. quick draw won't matter at that point.

Ike likes to play defensive, I would respond to your aggressive use of flamethrower with retreating Fair or QD.

charizard's spacing tools are a huge boon in this matchup because ike lacks any projectiles. off stage, charizard's recovery is clearly less limited, so he is at less danger when recovering and can also be more aggressive when edgeguarding. according to firemario's thread, all aerials come out in single digit frames, except for dair.

And Charizards do have projectiles? Flamethrower is technically “disjointed”, or else Ike’s Fair would be a projectile too.

I don’t see much potential in Charizard for gimping Ike specifically. His Fair has very low knockback and we’ll almost always use Aether for recovering. I think Charizard would do like any other character in the game for gimping Ike: speed hog or hit us in the Aether apex (if your Dair is disjointed).

i think those are the advantages charizard has in this matchup. offstage advantage and at medium range (ie at the point where jabs are not safe). up close ike's jab is better, while charizard's grab is much better. i don't know that either character is safe on shield here. i'd say ike is a little better here, but not by much.

Hahaha… I won’t start to discuss ratios or natural advantages here. You’re welcome to continue our match discussion ratios discussion at the Weapon Triangle thread.

both characters hate being in the air because of blindspots, although charizard is a lot more well equipped to hit the opponent instead of relying on just getting out of the way. charizard has an extra jump to use and more aerial speed than ike does. i promise that this isn't another one of my lies!

Speak for yourself. I love being at the air, Nair combos and auto cancels, Fair and Bair has nice IASA frames. If I space correctly my aerials, I cannot be punished. How would I not love it?

whaaaaaaaaaaat i've never seen an ike just quick draw back and forth lol

That’s because we are very careful with our spacing, we don’t need to rush in. Also, if we accidentally hit our opponent with the QD, we’ll suffer a full second ending lag.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

It is hilarious because this means your blind now too. Squirtle's grab range is not .6 it's .5


edit: 6>4 Ike is agreed upon with out the chain grab but luckily it exists.

@PK trainer. Her speed being a bit faster than Ike's doesn't mean she can suddenly punish. Go ahead and read a few pages and tell me where I said you have to be as faster than Ike to punish him.


edit2: don't you remember guilhe the PT boards know Ike better than us, if they say we hate the air then we must be doing something wrong.

 

[Guilhe]

“Luckily” A_B? Can’t you show any sympathy for the poor Squirtle?

 

[Kinzer]

No, only our friends get sympathy, I think we're neutral with the PTs for the moment, I dunno, but being neutral doesn't count as a friend.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

are you trying to bait an Ike joke out of that?

Anyways I won't especially since this 6 - 4 is based on a bunch of misinformed mains. Who even when shown data still continue saying there guesses are right and who ever tested was wrong.

edit: kinzer fell for your mind games.

 

[Kinzer]

What mindgames, Guil left a serious opportunity to punish his post, so I just reacted by making him pay for it with a cruddy over-used joke.

 

[Guilhe]

What mindgames, Guil left a serious opportunity to punish his post, so I just reacted by making him pay for it with a cruddy over-used joke.

Down B

You're open!

Ok, I'll stop joking around. Or I'll be the next in the banning line.

 

[Kinzer]

Umbreon is going to ban us all anyway if we don't move on to Diddy Kong.

Light, save us from the BANhammer, trust me it sucks!!

 

[Steeler]

Ike likes to play defensive, I would respond to your aggressive use of flamethrower with retreating Fair or QD.

i'm not sure of how retreating fair or QD would fare against a flamethrower approach. charizard short hops flamethrower to approach with it, so that the hitbox is coming down at an elevated angle. i'd imagine that QD would just run into the flames, while i don't know how ike would jump out of the flame and then fair charizard back.

And Charizards do have projectiles? Flamethrower is technically “disjointed”, or else Ike’s Fair would be a projectile too.

lol okay. the point of whether or not charizard has projectiles is completely irrelevant to my argument there, and you clearly misinterpreted what i said or something. i'm making the point that stuff like falco/wolf lasers and grenades make charizard's use of flamethrower and rock smash to space very difficult, because both are usually short hopped. ike lacks such a projectile, so those moves are more useful here. none of ike's attacks have the range that flamethrower has.

and flamethrower and rock smash are both technically "projectiles" but they aren't used like any other projectiles in the game (except for bowser fire breath, of course). i don't consider them true projectiles

I don’t see much potential in Charizard for gimping Ike specifically. His Fair has very low knockback and we’ll almost always use Aether for recovering. I think Charizard would do like any other character in the game for gimping Ike: speed hog or hit us in the Aether apex (if your Dair is disjointed).

fair has huge knockback when sweetspotted. this is the inner cone of fire breath that comes out of charizard's mouth. if you, as an ike offstage, are hit with fair at even moderate percents, you will not make it back on stage. the trajectory is horizontal and ike's second jump + aether/quick draw would not be enough, unless we were both high above the stage level to begin with (so you could quick draw back). and even that isn't guaranteed to save you.

it's like hitting with ike's fair. a tad bit weaker, but certainly faster. it definitely does not have "low knockback".

and yes, the dair is somehow disjointed either that or it has a hitbox that lingers where charizard stomps, even once he's pulled his feet back up.

Hahaha… I won’t start to discuss ratios or natural advantages here. You’re welcome to continue our match discussion ratios discussion at the Weapon Triangle thread.

i thought we were supposed to discuss ratios in here!

Speak for yourself. I love being at the air, Nair combos and auto cancels, Fair and Bair has nice IASA frames. If I space correctly my aerials, I cannot be punished. How would I not love it?

you would not love it if charizard forced you into the air. that's what i was referring to, i should have specified. sure, charizard can't be punished with a correctly spaced flamethrower and rock smash is difficult to punish as well. uair has a lingering hitbox, bair is strong and disjointed, etc. but that's when charizard has control. your examples, that's most useful when ike has control. when charizard throws ike into the air or something, your previous post about squirtle and ike stated that ike is better off just getting the hell out of there and putting his feet back on the ground. that's because ike has a disadvantage at that point, and so is charizard. so they are both similar in that regard. that was the point of my comparison, but i should have specified.

That’s because we are very careful with our spacing, we don’t need to rush in. Also, if we accidentally hit our opponent with the QD, we’ll suffer a full second ending lag.

okay, can you explain the use of QD here? are you saying like...QD at the opponent, slightly out of range so you don't hit? that doesn't sound very safe against charizard, who can just put rock smash's hitbox in between you and him if he catches wind of your plan. or put a shield up and grab you. i'd appreciate some more in-depth info here.

@AB, wow i AM blind. sorry about that, i thought i'd seen a .6 there. i did look at that exact same thread before making that post AND when it was quoted into this thread, and both times i saw a 6. this is me eating my eyes into blindness:



ah well, point is that squirtle doesn't have the crap grab range you claimed he had.

 

[Guilhe]

i'm not sure of how retreating fair or QD would fare against a flamethrower approach. charizard short hops flamethrower to approach with it, so that the hitbox is coming down at an elevated angle. i'd imagine that QD would just run into the flames, while i don't know how ike would jump out of the flame and then fair charizard back.

For the Fair, I will SH backwards while performing the Fair. The range in this attack is longer than the flamethrower, so if I spaced correctly, I can hit you through it. In the QD case, I would use just in case I was expecting you to do a SH FT. As I can hold the side B indefinitely and your FT eventually runs low on fuel, I can punish you harder if you insist on using it while I charge my QD.

fair has huge knockback when sweetspotted. this is the inner cone of fire breath that comes out of charizard's mouth. if you, as an ike offstage, are hit with fair at even moderate percents, you will not make it back on stage. the trajectory is horizontal and ike's second jump + aether/quick draw would not be enough, unless we were both high above the stage level to begin with (so you could quick draw back). and even that isn't guaranteed to save you.
it's like hitting with ike's fair. a tad bit weaker, but certainly faster. it definitely does not have "low knockback".

Couldn’t you find a worst place for that Fair to sweetspot? Also, that Fair has long duration; I could just airdodge through it, or let myself get hit by it if you are too distant to sweetspot, it would actually help me if I were recovering from below. Anyway, that info is good to know.

you would not love it if charizard forced you into the air. that's what i was referring to, i should have specified. sure, charizard can't be punished with a correctly spaced flamethrower and rock smash is difficult to punish as well. uair has a lingering hitbox, bair is strong and disjointed, etc. but that's when charizard has control. your examples, that's most useful when ike has control. when charizard throws ike into the air or something, your previous post about squirtle and ike stated that ike is better off just getting the hell out of there and putting his feet back on the ground. that's because ike has a disadvantage at that point, and so is charizard. so they are both similar in that regard. that was the point of my comparison, but i should have specified.

How would you force us into the air? Do these setups send Ike too high?

okay, can you explain the use of QD here? are you saying like...QD at the opponent, slightly out of range so you don't hit? that doesn't sound very safe against charizard, who can just put rock smash's hitbox in between you and him if he catches wind of your plan. or put a shield up and grab you. i'd appreciate some more in-depth info here.

That’s it. if I spaced correctly, I’ll have no ending lag and position myself in jab range. Hopefully, you’ll put up your shield for defending against QD and then put it down for punishing me, but then: surprise! Jabbed in your face!

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Fair has no knock back if you don't SS unless it has a sour and a sweet spot then a normal one. That would be one odd move but I don't think its like that.

Why is rock smash hard to punish btw? I know it lingers a bit with the shattered fragments but Ike's disjointed range can easily reach inside it.

 

[metroid1117]

Why is rock smash hard to punish btw? I know it lingers a bit with the shattered fragments but Ike's disjointed range can easily reach inside it.

For you to punish it, you have to be out of range in the first place (which smart Charizards will make sure you aren't). If you try and shield it, it'll eat your shield. If you spot-dodge, you get hit by the flying pebbles. If you roll behind him, you still may be hit by the flying pebbles. If you roll away, you lose your chance of counter-attacking. The best way to punish Rock Smash is before they use the attack; if they use from high up in the air, it's a free Aether, whereas if they short-hop it it's a FAir. Even then, Rock Smash has SAF from 1 through 21 (see here), so it's not like it will be easy to disrupt.

As for attacking Charizard while the attack is being used, FAir or FTilt should suffice; however, that's so far away that the Charizard would have to fudge up his spacing pretty badly.

 

[Guilhe]

All that info over rock smash is great; I’ll remember to punish it before he uses it. Anyway, I haven’t found that info on Charizard’s Fsmash having SA frames on the front page.

 

[Steeler]

For the Fair, I will SH backwards while performing the Fair. The range in this attack is longer than the flamethrower, so if I spaced correctly, I can hit you through it. In the QD case, I would use just in case I was expecting you to do a SH FT. As I can hold the side B indefinitely and your FT eventually runs low on fuel, I can punish you harder if you insist on using it while I charge my QD.

the range on fair is less than the range on flamethrower during the first 4 or 5 seconds it's out, which is much longer than it should be out for if charizard misses. if you SH backward the fair, you'll be even more out of range of flamethrower than before. it seems unlikely that you can use fair to punish a correctly used flamethrower because it looks like you have to SH fair charizard before the flame even comes out...which, again, has more range than your fair. the flamethrower also comes out on frame 20, according to firemario's thread. your fair comes out on frame 18.

for QD, you'd have to charge and release it before the flames even come out, or else you will just run into the fire. i can only see this working if the charizard badly messes up its spacing and the fire doesn't reach your hurtbox, in which case you release the QD once charizard releases FT, or it dies down enough that QD will outrange it.

it seems to me that ike's (limited) answers to flamethrower require a ton of prediction ahead of time.

Couldn’t you find a worst place for that Fair to sweetspot? Also, that Fair has long duration; I could just airdodge through it, or let myself get hit by it if you are too distant to sweetspot, it would actually help me if I were recovering from below. Anyway, that info is good to know.

charizard can 'drift' into you so that the sourspot hits first (thus, hitstun but no knockback) so that the sweetspot then hits safely. charizard can also initiate the attack above you and fastfall the hitbox into you.

obviously, like most edgeguarding techniques, you can airdodge through most everything. airdodging still doesn't get ike out of complete danger though, since charizard's fair has little duration if it does not hit (and grows quite a bit if it does), he can punish ike out of the air dodge with a bair (7 frames), nair (8 frames), or uair (6 frames) depending on positioning. ike's only option for counterattack would be his bair, which is just as fast as charizard's. however, you will be suffering from some slight airdodge cooldown that could very well give me the edge in that situation.

charizard's nair also lasts a really long time and has a hitbox surrounding charizard, you can't airdodge out of that attack. uair also lasts a while.

don't forget that rock smash is also an edgeguarding option, which lasts a really long time.

How would you force us into the air? Do these setups send Ike too high?

the same way ike forces charizard into the air...with his throws. charizard has a guaranteed bthrow to fthrow at 0%, which will often lead ike offstage. charizard also has fthrow/bthrow into usmash, which releases in 5 frames. charizard can also just rock smash or flamethrower. uthrow isn't strong enough to send ike far enough for safety until mid to high percents.

That’s it. if I spaced correctly, I’ll have no ending lag and position myself in jab range. Hopefully, you’ll put up your shield for defending against QD and then put it down for punishing me, but then: surprise! Jabbed in your face!

i could just hold my shield and grab you with zard's huge grab range. or rock smash, since if you make contact with the rock, it acts as if charizard headbutted it. so you'd take a huge amount of damage. even flamethrower is an option, albeit much riskier since if you see the flame coming, you can just wait until charizard is vulnerable again. this seems to be a pretty simple mindgame to me that ike can't really rely on too much.

@AB charizard's fair only has two different hitspots.

finally, punishing rock smash before charizard uses it is not easy, because the rock comes out in 5 frames...or less. you basically have to hit charizard before he's even in rock smash range.

 

[Guilhe]

the range on fair is less than the range on flamethrower during the first 4 or 5 seconds it's out, which is much longer than it should be out for if charizard misses. if you SH backward the fair, you'll be even more out of range of flamethrower than before. it seems unlikely that you can use fair to punish a correctly used flamethrower because it looks like you have to SH fair charizard before the flame even comes out...which, again, has more range than your fair. the flamethrower also comes out on frame 20, according to firemario's thread. your fair comes out on frame 18.

Yeah, Flamethrower outranges Fair. I guess just the QD punish would work in this situation. Or maybe Ike could rush in and wait for the flamethrower ending lag or for it to run out of fuel, and punish with jab.

for QD, you'd have to charge and release it before the flames even come out, or else you will just run into the fire. i can only see this working if the charizard badly messes up its spacing and the fire doesn't reach your hurtbox, in which case you release the QD once charizard releases FT, or it dies down enough that QD will outrange it.

That’s the exact situation for QD to work as punishment, Charizard would have to miss.

charizard can 'drift' into you so that the sourspot hits first (thus, hitstun but no knockback) so that the sweetspot then hits safely. charizard can also initiate the attack above you and fastfall the hitbox into you.

For that I would have to DI inwards.

obviously, like most edgeguarding techniques, you can airdodge through most everything. airdodging still doesn't get ike out of complete danger though, since charizard's fair has little duration if it does not hit (and grows quite a bit if it does), he can punish ike out of the air dodge with a bair (7 frames), nair (8 frames), or uair (6 frames) depending on positioning. ike's only option for counterattack would be his bair, which is just as fast as charizard's. however, you will be suffering from some slight airdodge cooldown that could very well give me the edge in that situation.

Ike? Using Bair during recovery? I don’t think so.

charizard's nair also lasts a really long time and has a hitbox surrounding charizard, you can't airdodge out of that attack. uair also lasts a while.

Or I could use Fair and hit through it, it is an option.

the same way ike forces charizard into the air...with his throws. charizard has a guaranteed bthrow to fthrow at 0%, which will often lead ike offstage. charizard also has fthrow/bthrow into usmash, which releases in 5 frames. charizard can also just rock smash or flamethrower. uthrow isn't strong enough to send ike far enough for safety until mid to high percents.

So if Ike is sent too high Ike could strafe away while performing aerials.

i could just hold my shield and grab you with zard's huge grab range. or rock smash, since if you make contact with the rock, it acts as if charizard headbutted it. so you'd take a huge amount of damage. even flamethrower is an option, albeit much riskier since if you see the flame coming, you can just wait until charizard is vulnerable again. this seems to be a pretty simple mindgame to me that ike can't really rely on too much.

It is an option for diversification; it isn’t safer than Ike’s normal methods of approaching. And I don’t need to jab in the end necessarily.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

You cant use fair against charizards nair, its way slower....
And i love pushing ikes offstage with watergun when they are jabbing near the edge... that nair lasts too much

 

[Steeler]

Yeah, Flamethrower outranges Fair. I guess just the QD punish would work in this situation. Or maybe Ike could rush in and wait for the flamethrower ending lag or for it to run out of fuel, and punish with jab.

what do you mean by rush in? shield cancel a dash into it? you will be shieldpoked way before charizard runs out of fuel.

the fact that it takes quick draw 18 frames to charge and a handful of more frames to both travel and hit makes me hesitant to call it a solid counter to flamethrower, which comes out on about frame 20.

That’s the exact situation for QD to work as punishment, Charizard would have to miss.

seems like it could work in that case, but charizard should not be missing unless it makes a pretty dumb mistake.

you haven't really proposed anything that would work as a consistent counter against the flamethrower.

For that I would have to DI inwards.

well, charizard can "drift" into you. his air speed is actually pretty decent. don't forget that ike will probably be holding toward the stage anyway, since he'll be recovering.

Ike? Using Bair during recovery? I don’t think so.

i assume you say that because of the after lag? well, isn't that a problem with all of ike's aerials?

Or I could use Fair and hit through it, it is an option.

true. you'll have to predict it though.

So if Ike is sent too high Ike could strafe away while performing aerials.

that's a given, but it will be very difficult to accomplish at low to mid percents. it's the same deal as when ike throws charizard, really. and if the charizard predicts that you will attempt to use an aerial as you strafe, charizard can just stay grounded and follow with his fast dash. ike can do the same, only with quick draw.

It is an option for diversification; it isn’t safer than Ike’s normal methods of approaching. And I don’t need to jab in the end necessarily.

fair enough, although with ike in range of the opponent's full spectrum of attacks, i'm not sure of what other attacks ike would use in place of a jab.