Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Kinzer]

It must've been taken down, like the Zero Suit pic (Which i miss. )

 

[YagamiLight]

The D3 pic isn't working .

Seems to work for me, all of them do.

It must've been taken down, like the Zero Suit pic (Which i miss. )

Alright, let's have a deal. Since this Zero Suit Samus isn't as popular as the last, go ahead and choose a non-nude/revealing/whatever pic that you like and I'll host it.

 

[Guilhe]

Hey, how do you people think Ike fares against Marth in Pirate Ship? It may be I viable counterpick since we have that little problem (counter) returning to the stage, and it may be not, as he has a meteor smash.

 

[YagamiLight]

Hey, how do you people think Ike fares against Marth in Pirate Ship? It may be I viable counterpick since we have that little problem (counter) returning to the stage, and it may be not, as he has a meteor smash.

As it removes Marth's gimp game and zoning isn't as important, Ike can most certainly do well here. Plus, Ike+Water=Win. I'll probably retool the Marth write-up at the midway point anyways.

 

[Kinzer]

Hey Light, I'm just kidding! I'm the most sarcastic person you'll meet on the internet. *scratch head* I'm sorry if I should've told you this.

 

[YagamiLight]

Hey Light, I'm just kidding! I'm the most sarcastic person you'll meet on the internet. *scratch head* I'm sorry if I should've told you this.

Oh, I realize that.

Take a look at the ZSS picture one more time...

 

[Kinzer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9MjCkxDuag

(7:05)

OMG, is this really happening?! Maybe, finally, after all this time something (more) good is going to happen to me!! This is amazing, I CAN'T WAIT!!

 

[Ussi]

Light, ;o you should make a separate thread for one of the characters we're gonna talk about.

 

[YagamiLight]

Light, ;o you should make a separate thread for one of the characters we're gonna talk about.

I'm rather against that. Each match-up only takes us 3-4 days at maximum to discuss, and there really is no particular hurry since I'm still going to take the same amount of time for a write-up. for both of the characters.

On a side note, the Lucario write-up is almost done!!

 

[Ussi]

if we do two at the same time, it'll get cluttered and disorganized

 

[SonicBoom2]

Oh yeah, is it possible to put numbers like 70-30 in So and So's favor too?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Read the first post SB2. If we do it at all, it won't be until we have EVERYONE's match-up done, simply because numbers don't tell you how to beat the said character. We want to know how to win, not what the ratio is.

EDIT: Meh, slightly harsh sounding I know, but this has been asked a fair bit, and it's addressed in the first paragraph, if not the first sentence. >_> You should enlarge, bold, and change the color on that sentence.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Oh whoops sorry, not attentive.
Yeah, I'm just so used to seeing those numbers WITH the info on the character too.

 

[XACE-K]

Oh whoops sorry, not attentive.
Yeah, I'm just so used to seeing those numbers WITH the info on the character too.

Everybody is. We're just saving it for last. Both boards might not agre on some ratio now but later, maybe they will.

 

[YagamiLight]

Really, can we save the intellectual debate for T.Link when we get to him? I have a lot I can offer for T.Link because I've fought one that lives in the same city as I do (and is pretty good), but we aren't at him atm.

Well, we got to him. TL is so much cooler than Bowser anyways. Some fat turtle or a little blond kid in green tights? The choice is obvious.

 

[HeroMystic]

O_o @ Peach's new pic.

 

[Kinzer]

O.o Oh God Hero's right, we're going to be getting SOMETHING from SOMEBODY about it...although why not enjoy the view while it lasts?

Anyway I'll give my insight for T.Link in the morning when I'm at school. Luckily I got all my work done a week ahead of time and I'll be free then.

 

[YagamiLight]

O_o @ Peach's new pic.

The old one's stare began to mildly creep me out. This one is totally friendly.

I don't think anyone can say too much about the picture, in any case.

 

[Kinzer]

The old one's stare began to mildly creep me out. This one is totally friendly.

I don't think anyone can say too much about the picture, in any case.

Sure, whatever floats your boat buddy...however people have different ways to interpret "friendly"

 

[Ussi]

O_O;; i Don't think I can ever beat Peach now... its 100-0 now

 

[•Col•]

The only way that pic could get better is if Zelda and Samus were already in in... Yay, slumber party! :D

Spoiler

Makeout practice.

 

[Ussi]

>_>; anyways, lets not get carried away.. good thing there are no female Ike users... I believe o_o



TL if he spams projectiles all day its pretty much set for him depending on the stage. You gotta really be good at PS and spacing to battle that kind of TL.

BF will stop TL's projectle game.

Spoiler

Sleep over time!!

Spoiler

<--- fail....

 

[•Col•]

>_>; anyways, lets not get carried away.. good thing there are no female Ike users... I believe o_o



TL if he spams projectiles all day its pretty much set for him depending on the stage. You gotta really be good at PS and spacing to battle that kind of TL.

BF will stop TL's projectle game.

Spoiler

Sleep over time!!

Spoiler

<--- fail....

..... Wow, I think you're right... o_o I don't think there ARE any female Ike mains... Most of them flock to Marth... D: (Cuz he's more feminine. No seriously, I know a girl who preferred Marth over Roy in Melee cuz Marth seemed more like a girl to her. xDDD) I do know some crazy Ike fangirls that play Brawl, but I dunno if they play with him... o-o They're also Mother/Earthboundd fanatics, so they might be playing Ness/Lucas... xD W/e...


ANYWAY. Toon Link... Projectiles can be annoying... But Ike's range >>>>>> TLink's Range. Also, he is light... And he's suprisingly easy to edgeguard... o-o Once he's far enough offstage, his only hope to not get edgeguarded is that he hits you with his boomerang/bomb while you're jumping out after him.... <_<



For a stage, maybe Lylat Cruise. I dunno. I just know that stage is horrible for gimping Link. Probably not as effective CP against TL, but I dunno. Just throwing out some thoughts. D:


EDIT: LOL, didn't notice that it was a link to the picture... cool... xD

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm glad the picture was received "well".

That said, both Colaya and Ussi stated the obvious point. TL has great projectile spam, yet Ike dominates at CQC. At the base level, that's pretty fair. When you add in a stage that forces close combat like Battlefield or Smashville, it gets tipped in Ike's favor. When you use a stage such as Final Destination, you are in for what is quite possibly the most annoying uphill battle ever. Spam spam spam, flllleeeeee, spam spam.

 

[Ussi]

Lylat is no good. Go small stages only against TL. CP character if its a big stage.

 

[HeroMystic]

While TL's best interest is to keep Ike away, his aerial game should be noted. B-air can be used for spacing and gimping, especially on Ike.

 

[Kinzer]

Not to mention T.link's Bair makes for a nice combo/WoP, especially With Ike who is an the heavier side and doesn't have quick "gtfo of my face!" aerials with the slight exception of his own Bair, but what T.link is going to let Ike have his back turned on him knowing this?

 

[XZA143]

Toon Link: In some ways similar to Link, in other ways isn't.


-If he is not spamming projectiles(and he most likely will) he will probably have his back to you. Reason being: his Bair comes out very quickly and will be used liberally to rack up damage in a WoP style.

-He has tricks to arrow, bomb, and boomerang cancel and will utilize these to form a wall of projectiles to force your approach, but this is nothing new for Ike. Carefully timed dash attacks can pierce the wall, but don't get predictable.

-Toon Link also has Zair. Most favor projectiles to space, but don't be surprised when you see this move.

-His Dsmash can put Ike in a terrible position to recover and be gimped, avoid it.

-Jabs will be helpful as usual. T.Links recovery is as predictable as Links. Walk off aerials are definitely viable, most notably Dair.

-His Dair can spike, but will only be used when he can guarantee it will hit if he is off stage, otherwise its minus a stock for him. I do not know if he can land a Dair you when you Aether, however.

-Remember, he is rather light. You should be killing him early.

-Outside of gimping, he's going to have problems outright killing you. When your percentage gets up there be aware of the smashes, while they have lag they aren't exactly slow either.

I'm sure theres more I missed, but thats what comes to mind off the top of my head.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not sure how T.Link could Boomerang/Bomb cancel, I do know that his projectiles have some nice stuff that can be done with them... The boomerang can be angled, and has a hitbox on the return unlike Link's Gale Boomerang. It's most common sense for anybody who has played with/against a T.Link that arrows can be canceled, and they go a fartehr distance than Link's, so it's easier for T.Link. People should know how to handle Bombs I assume.

T.Link's "whirly-spinning-thingimabob" or whatever you call it, actually has a small vacuum effect to it, and I'm not sure how to DI out of it if you get caught. Did I mention that it is an improvement from Link's recovery-wise as well? Eh but then again T.Link seems to have more mobility than Link anyway. Only downside ist hat T.link's hitbox is smaller I suppose.

I'm not sure if T.Link can jab cancel like Link can, somebody will have to clarify for me.

T.Link has some fantastic Aerials. Nair will hit on both sides...and is fast. Bair makes a nice WoP as has already been mentioned before, not sure if Fair could be used int he same fashion though. Uair has killing potential, just like Link's. Finally T.Link's Dair can spike/be slowed/sometimes can even be stalled in the air. Dair also has a second hit to it if it hits you once and T.Link can move around a little with it. DI the wrong way and T.Link can hit you with yet another Dair. You probably won't be Dair spiked (usually) because for T.Link, if he messes it up it will usually cost him a Stock.

T.Link's Smashes come out as fast as his aerials do with the slight exception of his Fsmash. Usmash can Star K.O. and Dsmash can send Ike far and low just like Zelda's Dsmash...or it can send you flying up and high, thoguh I dunno how this can be controlled. I think it's even possible for the first hit of the Dsmash to send you right into the Second hit of Dsmash. Finally Fsmash can kill if performed on the edge.

Yet another character who can juggle Ike with their Utilt at low %ages...nothing new right?

That's it for my two cent's on T.Link.

Edit: Hey Light, before you go and make a duplicate thread introducing the Toon links, don't worry about it, I already made them a thread to direct them here. Now we just wait and see what they say about their main...or leave us in the dark to figure it out ourselves...

 

[XACE-K]

It's TL instead of Boozer D: Anyway, TL needs more rep in tournies. srsly

- Ike's biggest weakness against TL is projectiles. (Obvious answer is obvious) He'll use them to keep you at bay when you're attacking and use them when he's on the attack. Dodge them on both occassions.

- His f-air, b-air and n-air can combo. His f-air and b-air are his best aerial kill moves.

-Even though d-air is stronger than f-air and b-air, TL can SD himself if he's careless. Try to make him careless and you'll have to deal with one less stock.

- His recovery is A LOT better than his older self.

I still wanted Boozer D:

 

[VietGeek]

Toon Link's advantages are pretty simple.

His projectiles will be his greatest asset to compensate for his lack of range. A good Toon Link that wishes to play safe will stick to camping you and creating projectile walls to make your approach even so difficult. He'll try to zone you with his *rather short* Zair, and more or less, he'll only try to make openings for safe damage. Most of the kills he'll get will very likely be from edgeguarding/hogging.

The only advantages I know Ike possesses is that he has superior range (seems to have the best overall disjoint range anyway), and the fact that he has no issue w/ killing, especially on a lightweight such as Toon Link.

Toon Links will probably only sneak in arrows here and there for extra damage, but boomerangs and bombs will be the ones hindering you.

Zair will be used to zone you, and if perfectly spaced and autocanceled, should be around the tip of the Ragnell. He can autocancel it to shield quite easily, other than projectiles, it's his only asset to even out with your range. Naturally however, he must use it rather low on the ground to autocancel, so if it's a consistent approach, it'll become one-dimensional and can probably be punished one way or another. Also know it can cancel an airdodge at anytime.

Toon Link will probably not try to use it close up because it comes out rather slowly, so it'll be beaten out by a lot of moves close-up. If you don't DI properly, it can be used to combo into an assortment of things, including Usmash.

Arrows will usually be canceled from an aerial as a retreat/wall, as it's rather unsafe otherwise. Boomerangs are generally angled down to deter both a ground and aerial approach. I would say Toon Link would want you to allow it to return, but of course all it takes is for him to be in front of you on its return and you're safe. If he doesn't cancel the lag from catching it, that's free damage for you.

Bombs can be used to gimp, rack damage, "combo," act as a wall, whatever. It's the trump card of TL and will be used for a variety of uses.

TL will approach with Zair/Bair/Nair/bomb usually. Zair I've gone through, and Nair is fast but has a slender hitbox. Bair is the same except it has a decent vertical range and can combo. It sends you upward for juggling fun, unlike Nair which sends you horizontally.

Neither Nair or Bair will NOT kill if used consistently (which they will), only after a new stock or grab jabs will they be able to kill, and that's only 180+ considering Ike's weight I assume. Zair doesn't kill...ever.

Fair will either be used to kill or set-up for a kill. It has slow start-up frames and some post lag, but deceptive vertical hitbox length and decent power at mid-high %s. Uair will be used to pressure you from above if you're up there, bait airdodges, etc. It is strongest on its first few frames, but acts similar to a sex kick but can still kill towards the end of its animation as well. Toon Link can follow airdodges with this move.

Dair shouldn't be used for gimps or as an approach, more like a surprise attack. It has post-lag and an initial stall so it's easily punished. If it does hit, it'll probably do some damage but will usually never kill.

His tilts are generally underused. Ftilt is *identical* to Marth's Fsmash in arc, hit frames, stuff like that. It naturally is a lot shorter, and with no tipper system, it loses some killing power (it's naturally also a bit weaker though anyway). Dtilt can trip at low percentages, it's a semi-spike, probably can't kill anytime soon. Utilt is used to set-up juggles, or kill in place of Usmash at high %s.

Usmash is TL's safest smash overall. It combos, kills, sets up for traps, eh. It has small horizontal range and some lag afterward. Fsmash is laggy and you can probably jump out of it or DI up and do so. Neither of the slashes are safe on block really. Dsmash doesn't kill until much later (130%+), but at lower percents can set up for gimps due to its odd horizontal knockback at low %s. This also occurs if you DI it incorrectly.

You shouldn't worry too much about grabs, but know Dthrow/Uthrow sets up for juggling, Fthrow and Bthrow set up for edgeguarding or just for the heck of it, lol. Up+B is *VERY* unsafe against Ike, and most people can DI out of it or shield in-between due to its fail hitboxes, coupled with small range = bad against Ike.

If TL gets close in, he can jab as it's his safest close-range move, also the fastest. He can jab cancel with it into a bunch of stuff, but naturally there's not enough hitstun in Brawl to guarantee anything.

His recovery is linear to a point, but has decent vertical range. He's rather hard to edgeguard unless he loses his second jump.

This battle doesn't look good for Ike. If you can pass projectiles and Zair though, his lack of range hurts him and his lack of solid kill moves only worsens it. Ike surpasses him in both aspects. If you can find holes in his defense, you can eventually rack up damage and win.

I know this wall of text is rather...disheartening, but hey, Toon Link boards don't have enough of others to write these walls other than myself. =/

I would write down a match-up ratio, but I will respect your wishes and opt to omit.

 

[Sosuke]

EDIT:
^
Damn you for beating/overpowering me. T_T


Approaching:
Your going to have to approach TL every time. His projectiles will keep you at bay, so learn to run and perfectshield projectiles when your approaching. You can try the air, but just be cautious of boomerang/arrows.
If TL tries to approach Ike, it will probably be with Nair or Zair. For Nair, he'll probably quickdraw afterwards so get ready to shield it. For Zair, he'll proooobably try to grab you or SH and Nair. Just get ready for anything after Zair.

Projectiles: Main thing you have to worry about is projectiles. Just stay up in Toon Link's face and don't give him room to spam. Toon will probably SHDA to try to stop you from approaching. When you get a little closer, they'll back away and boomerang. In the air, get ready for bombs. Airdodge and catch them.

Recovery: Spike TL when hes recovering. Trust me, It's easy to. If he tethers, Spike him. If he uses spin attack, get above him and spike him for a little ways above him. Ike's sword should reach through TL's Spin attack.
When your recovering, your pretty much screwed. Use Ike's quickdraw Side-B thing and recover as fast as you can. Aethers just asking for an easy Dair from TL.

My general advice is to stay up close and Fair.Nair a lot.

Counterpick levels where its hard to kill Vertically, but easy to kill horizontally.

 

[Kirk]

If anyone wants a visual of the various techniques described above, you can watch these matches (from about 3 weeks ago). Granted there were a few mistakes made, they still show what the matchup can be like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUXQkeC5g_8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zs4_rfFl7ic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygIMgVnNsp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPt15QUgwW4

 

[Kinzer]

I should mention that T.Link's Dair will cause a wind effect if it hits the ground, slightly pushing you away, however you should probably Ftilt if you happen to be lucky and dodged his Dair on the ground.

Also Aether is not such a bad recovery. Either the T.Link I fought just didn't too it too much, or he couldn't, and I think I can see why.

T.Link will go down FAST when he Dairs, he's probably gonig to mistime the attack and fail into Ragnell while it's still spinning in the air. A worse scenario is that Dair will hit Ike during the SA frames. Only way you could possibly get Dair-spiked by T.Link is if you start getting predictable or something, it should not happen often.

 

[XACE-K]

I should mention that T.Link's Dair will cause a wind effect if it hits the ground, slightly pushing you away, however you should probably Ftilt if you happen to be lucky and dodged his Dair on the ground.

F-tilt is large enough to hit him after that so it's a good idea.

T.Link will go down FAST when he Dairs, he's probably gonig to mistime the attack and fail into Ragnell while it's still spinning in the air. A worse scenario is that Dair will hit Ike during the SA frames. Only way you could possibly get Dair-spiked by T.Link is if you start getting predictable or something, it should not happen often.

I don't even think TL should d-air when Ike's recovering. Sure it can spike but I find it too risky IMO.I'ld rather do a run-off b-air but that's just me.

If you get hit by d-air when recovering, the SA frames would most likely kick in.

 

[Kinzer]

Yeah I think we have it covered that if T.Link tries to Dair Ike offstage, the only thing that can happen is that Ike ends up with more damage. The risk for T.Link is NOT worth the reward.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think that one thing that has been definitively proven around here is that you can't spike a good Ike.

 

[Sosuke]

^
It's easy to spike Ike.
You just don't hit him during his super armor frames.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Easier said than done.
Most Ike's most use Quick Draw to recover unless the opponent is being careless.
Ike will be too far to spike if he's not using Aether.
Ike will have SA frames while he's using Aether and usually Spike-Able.

 

[HeroMystic]

Most Ike's most use Quick Draw to recover unless the opponent is being careless.

No they don't.