Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[Sosuke]

Ike this, Ike that. Blah.

Most Ike's most use Quick Draw to recover unless the opponent is being careless.

..Not really, but it doesn't really matter.

Ike will be too far to spike if he's not using Aether.

No. All TL has to do is look at Ike. If he sees hes trying to go for the edge with his QD, he tether hogs. All TL has to do to spike him is intercept Ike during his QD. Considering Ike can go certain distances after charging it for a certain time, and that he has to reach at least the ledge or above, its easy to predict the path.

Ike will have SA frames while he's using Aether and usually Spike-Able.

idk what thats supposed to mean, but Ike only has super armor frames at the start. When he throws the sword. The rest of the time its an easy spike and he doesn't sweetspot the ledge, making it every TL's dream.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Really? My friend told me that.

I need to stop listening to them...
Is QD even that good?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

A good Ike will not use QD unless it's safe to do so. Meaning, you aren't there to stop it. Or one of the very few times it's better to QD then to Aether, which isn't often.

And SAFs last until Ike flies up to grab the ledge. And there is a bit of a sweetspot on it, AKA, the very tip of the spinning blade and slightly above it. Also, if it's SV or BF, all he has to do is basically touch the slope at any point with the blade and he will slide up it and onto the stage/ledge.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Sorry, I only recently picked up Ike.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Ike this, Ike that. Blah.


..Not really, but it doesn't really matter.


No. All TL has to do is look at Ike. If he sees hes trying to go for the edge with his QD, he tether hogs. All TL has to do to spike him is intercept Ike during his QD. Considering Ike can go certain distances after charging it for a certain time, and that he has to reach at least the ledge or above, its easy to predict the path.


idk what thats supposed to mean, but Ike only has super armor frames at the start. When he throws the sword. The rest of the time its an easy spike and he doesn't sweetspot the ledge, making it every TL's dream.

Ha, considering that Tink's dair only spikes at the beginning, he won't be able to get past Aether fast enough.

 

[SonicBoom2]

^Theres an idea.

But what if TL Fastfalled first then spiked, right before he would get hit by Aether.
I havent tried this, but it's the only idea in my head.

 

[SaltyKracka]

^Theres an idea.

But what if TL Fastfalled first then spiked, right before he would get hit by Aether.
I havent tried this, but it's the only idea in my head.

By that time, Ike would probably already have grabbed the ledge.

 

[Sosuke]

Ha, considering that Tink's dair only spikes at the beginning, he won't be able to get past Aether fast enough.

*pounds head on table*
Thats.
Why.
You.
Wait.
And.
Use.
It.
When.
Hes.
Catching.
The.
Sword.


Logic people.
Please take into consideration that some of the Toon Link players actually know how to use their character in a matchup.

 

[SonicBoom2]

I need to try this later.
Why are we even talking about TL's spike in the first place btw?
I don't find it reliable enough to even think about using.

EDIT: Usually we Ike's would have usually grabbed the ledge by then.

 

[Sosuke]

*sigh* Why do I even try?

Ike/Wario/anyone else who doesn't sweetspot the edge are easy spikes for TL because the spike has a lot of range, enough to go through the move your using at the edge, breaking through the middle of your recovery move and Dairing.
TL doesn't even have to risk suiciding. He can just stay NEAR, as in ON THE LEVEL, jump, and use Dair to spike Ike.

Understand now?

 

[SaltyKracka]

*sigh* Why do I even try?

Ike/Wario/anyone else who doesn't sweetspot the edge are easy spikes for TL because the spike has a lot of range, enough to go through the move your using at the edge, breaking through the middle of your recovery move and Dairing.
TL doesn't even have to risk suiciding. He can just stay NEAR, as in ON THE LEVEL, jump, and use Dair to spike Ike.

Understand now?

No. Reverse Aether. Tink's spike doesn't have as much range as you say, and you're not going to have the chance to set it up unless the Ike is recovering from practically beneath the stage.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Wait wha?
Sorry, its a Saturday

So are you trying to KILL with TL's spike?
I thought it only leads you straight down, not angled or anything, if you were on stage (you said on the level) Ike would have just taken some knockback and damage.

And Ike CAN sweetspot the edge.

TL's spike isnt all that great considering you are forced down.
I really dont see a lot of range onto it either.

 

[Sosuke]

^
Show me how he can sweetspot the ledge with his Aether.

No. Reverse Aether. Tink's spike doesn't have as much range as you say, and you're not going to have the chance to set it up unless the Ike is recovering from practically beneath the stage.

Ugh the point of this is lost. TL can even tether Ike's recovery. I'm just try to tell you what to do to not get edgehogged.

=/
It has much more range then you think. Enough to easily spike Ike.

RA doesn't even matter. You just have to be a little farther from the edge then.
And what do you mean "beneath the stage"? Thats where Ike recovers with aether doesn't he?!
It goes like almost straight up. How else are you going to recover?

TL's Dair has horizontal range too you know. More then it looks like it has.

 

[SaltyKracka]

^
Show me how he can sweetspot the ledge with his Aether.


Ugh the point of this is lost. TL can even tether Ike's recovery. I'm just try to tell you what to do to not get edgehogged. Any Tink attempting to edgehog Ike is in for an Aetherspike. Or just plain disappointment as Ike recovers onto the stage.

=/
It has much more range then you think. Enough to easily spike Ike.
Dair has range. The spike doesn't.
RA doesn't even matter. You just have to be a little farther from the edge then.
And what do you mean "beneath the stage"? Thats where Ike recovers with aether doesn't he?!
It goes like almost straight up. How else are you going to recover?
If Ike throws Aether so that it somewhat above the ledge, how are you going to get into postition to spike?
TL's Dair has horizontal range too you know. More then it looks like it has.I seriously doubt that.

Anyways, my whole point is that Ike is far more likely to spike the hell out of Tink than vice versa.

 

[SonicBoom2]

While Ike was spinning I think I sweetspotted the ledge once.
ONCE.

By the way,
how much range does Tinks spike have that you say?

 

[Sosuke]

Its amazing. Your not listening at all.
Toon Link can spike you from the stage.
aka.
HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DIRECTLY OVER YOU.
Imagine Snake.
Now Imagine his Utilt's range.
Now subtract a little from that.
There you go.

"If Ike throws Aether so that it somewhat above the ledge, how are you going to get into position to spike"
Thats the ABSOLUTE PERFECT chance for a spike. When hes catching it and about to fall to grab just an inch or so the ledge or whatever, you Dair him. Its not even hard.

You can't spike him if hes on the stage.
You can't spike him when hes spiking you.
You can't spike him while your recovering.

I'm not trying to say TL wins the match or "ohh my characters 11337 and urs sux" and trying to say TL is better in every way, I'm saying in this one particular scenario, our going to get spiked.



"While Ike was spinning I think I sweetspotted the ledge once.
ONCE."
If you can show me, then I'll say your right.
But Then that doesn't make sense because every Ike would just do that.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Its amazing. Your not listening at all.
Toon Link can spike you from the stage.
aka.
HE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE DIRECTLY OVER YOU.

Prove it.

10chars.

 

[Sosuke]

Prove it.

10chars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEIm-JfYU1Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phxYVgMHHhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ux8yGNc9SPQ

Theres no Ike footage, but Wario recovery should show what I mean.
I'm sure it happens a lot, just look for it.
It's easy enough to the point where I could do it when I first got this game. =/

 

[XACE-K]

Oh my f***ing God, not this again.....

Stop the arguing. sasuke is right now stop.

 

[HeroMystic]

People, Sasukebowser is right. Stop arguing with him. Toon Link CAN spike Ike from Aether without much difficulty. He can also do it horizontally although he has to be fairly close to do. In fact, I just did it myself to make sure.

Stop being fanboyish. If you want to argue against something. At least don't theorycraft it and test it out yourself.

Btw, when it comes to this I'll say for this match-up, Quick Draw becomes a viable option for recovery, although Aether is still the better option overall.

 

[YagamiLight]

Seriously guys, sasukebowser is completely correct in what he is saying. If Toon Link is in a good position and times correctly, he can spike Ike out of his recovery. There's little else to say on the matter.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I didn't see Tink spiking from any points where he wouldn't get hit by Aether.

EDIT: Fine fine fine. I still stand by my point that Ike will spike Tink much more than he will get spiked.

 

[HeroMystic]

^In full honesty, neither should be getting spiked heavily throughout the match, but it's something to look out for.

 

[Sosuke]

Right, TL should be more focused on racking up damage and trying to avoid Ike's Fairs and other approaches.
Ike should just be focused on being up close and not letting TL spam.
Spikes shouldn't happen much because the percentages would be high enough to either kill or edgehog.

But just to finish this whole spiking thing, if Ike tries to spike, it should be when TL is recovering vertically.
Just drop down from the edge and Dair through TL's Spin Attack.
But then again it's just better to not go for the spike unless your sure it'll do something. TL's Spin attack could put Ike in a bad position offstage or the TL could get a possible stage spike if his timing is correct.

TL should be going for tether hogs against Ike. It's low risk-high reward in this match up.
So I suggest trying to recover onto the level if TL is already grabbing onto the ledge.

 

[XACE-K]

Right, TL should be more focused on racking up damage and trying to avoid Ike's Fairs and other approaches.
Ike should just be focused on being up close and not letting TL spam.
Spikes shouldn't happen much because the percentages would be high enough to either kill or edgehog.

But just to finish this whole spiking thing, if Ike tries to spike, it should be when TL is recovering vertically.
Just drop down from the edge and Dair through TL's Spin Attack.
But then again it's just better to not go for the spike unless your sure it'll do something. TL's Spin attack could put Ike in a bad position offstage or the TL could get a possible stage spike if his timing is correct.

TL should be going for tether hogs against Ike. It's low risk-high reward in this match up.
So I suggest trying to recover onto the level if TL is already grabbing onto the ledge.

Agreed.

And would the Battlefield be a good neutral against TL since it's small and could force TL to fight close combat?

 

[SonicBoom2]

Right, TL should be more focused on racking up damage and trying to avoid Ike's Fairs and other approaches.
Ike should just be focused on being up close and not letting TL spam.
Spikes shouldn't happen much because the percentages would be high enough to either kill or edgehog.

But just to finish this whole spiking thing, if Ike tries to spike, it should be when TL is recovering vertically.
Just drop down from the edge and Dair through TL's Spin Attack.
But then again it's just better to not go for the spike unless your sure it'll do something. TL's Spin attack could put Ike in a bad position offstage or the TL could get a possible stage spike if his timing is correct.

TL should be going for tether hogs against Ike. It's low risk-high reward in this match up.
So I suggest trying to recover onto the level if TL is already grabbing onto the ledge.

Ooooh, all I needed was some footage...
And this post right here pretty much would have cleared everything up...
Sorryz.

 

[Sosuke]

Agreed.

And would the Battlefield be a good neutral against TL since it's small and could force TL to fight close combat?

Yeah. BF is great actually.
Anywhere just plain and not a lot of room to move around.
And platforms help with staying out of the way of arrows so thats good. =)

 

[Ussi]

sasukebowser, I aploigize for the silliness of the less knowledgable Ikes.


Seriously TL will wreck Ike if the stage is not small or slanted.

 

[Sosuke]

Don't worry about it Ussi.
It happens. =P

And yeah, defiantly go for slanted stages. Actually, umm... Yoshis island and Smashville are awesome for Ike here.


FD is sorta so-so. It has too much room for TL to spam imo.

 

[SonicBoom2]

Hey, Im still here.

 

[XACE-K]

sasukebowser, I aploigize for the silliness of the less knowledgable Ikes.

Yeah, we still have "them" around.

And yeah, defiantly go for slanted stages. Actually, umm... Yoshis island and Smashville are awesome for Ike here.

FD is sorta so-so. It has too much room for TL to spam imo.

I would agree with both your ideas on FD and Smashville. Yoshi's Island, idk. I have different opinions on it.

Hey, Im still here.

Unfortunately you are.

Spoiler

possible sarcasm

 

[Sosuke]

I would agree with both your ideas on FD and Smashville. Yoshi's Island, idk. I have different opinions on it.[/SPOILER]

Does Yoshi's Island have bad edges or something like that?
Or is the platform a problem?

 

[XACE-K]

The platform can be good for platform abuse but at the blast-off glitch with Aether occurs on this stage. It isn't absolutley horrible to the point where this is Ike's worst stage but it can screw you up and make you have one less stock.

I do like the stage as a whole though. The music is pretty good, I like the art style, it's fun to play on, etc.
But that isn't the point of this thread.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

[late]Ya, it isn't that hard for Toon Link to spike Ike during aether whenever on a non-slanted stage. BF and SV could be harder, but still do able, just takes more timing with a higher risk of getting Aetherspiked by the Ike sliding up the slant if timed wrong.[/late]

How much would Toon Link use the arrows and boomerang in this match? I know they use bombs a lot, but Ike's fist can tink (lol pun on Toon Link's nickname) out his arrows for sure, and I believe the boomerang. As for bombs, it would be smart to see if Nair causes the bomb to explode before it touches Ike, as that would help a lot if it did. Auto-canceling and all of that.

As well, Dsmash is a killer for Ike at low %s near the ledge if it sends him flying downward. In a very much dead sort of way. >_> What I would like to know, is to what % that holds true.

 

[Sosuke]

How much would Toon Link use the arrows and boomerang in this match? I know they use bombs a lot, but Ike's fist can tink (lol pun on Toon Link's nickname) out his arrows for sure, and I believe the boomerang. As for bombs, it would be smart to see if Nair causes the bomb to explode before it touches Ike, as that would help a lot if it did. Auto-canceling and all of that.

As well, Dsmash is a killer for Ike at low %s near the ledge if it sends him flying downward. In a very much dead sort of way. >_> What I would like to know, is to what % that holds true.

Arrows and boomerangs are good since Ike doesn't have a projectile to bounce back with. Expect them a lot.
Short Hop Double Arrow is good for TL also, because Ike is tall and an easy target to hit.

Tink is a brawl player.. >_>

The Dsmash has nothing to do with percentages. Everyone thinks that for some reason. o_O
It has to do with DI and/or slanted slopes.

 

[Alus]

^^^ also ike can barely resist projectile spam anyway. ("youre too slow!")

 

[Nidtendofreak]

O_o then how come I only see people get sent flying downwards at low %?

Okay, questions on stages I just thought of:

1) How well do you think Toon Link would do in Luigi's Mansion? I mean, the pillars and walls would cramp his projectile game until the house was destroyed, but on the otherhand, he could have some crazy combos on Ike while the floors were still around.....

2) How badly does BF mess with Tink's projectile game, if at all? I mean, I know it at least messes up arrows a bit, and potentially some of his bombs, but how about the boomerang?

3) How is Tink on Cornelia(sp?) and Green Greens, as they are standard CPs for Ike. Cornelia for the wall infinite + harder time for projectiles to hit him thanks to the multiple levels + small blast zones, Green Greens for having built in projectiles for Ike to use + walls to stop projectiles + small platforms that Ike can cover with a single smash + and small blast zones.

 

[Sosuke]

Because whats the point of trying to do at high percents? =)
You can just kill them normally. The properties are the same, just take my word for it.
Actually, I'm just gonna say I'm not sure. I can't explain Brawl's physics. =P

1) Luigis Mansion is good if you can keep the level together. The house isn't good for TL combos. It restraints too much for a good Bair chain.

2)It doesn't bother the boomerang at all, since it can go through platforms.

3)Wall infinite? o_o (explain please? T_T)
Cornaria is good as long as you kill him from the sides before he gets the chance to do it to you.
Mmm....Green greens is tricky. It stops some of TL's stage control, but I'm not sure its the best choice for Ike. It just seems sorta...idk, weird. Theres little room for Ike's airials there without hitting the blocks. =/

 

[guild525]

Because whats the point of trying to do at high percents? =)
You can just kill them normally. The properties are the same, just take my word for it.

1) Luigis Mansion is good if you can keep the level together. The house isn't good for TL combos. It restraints too much for a good Bair chain.

2)It doesn't bother the boomerang at all, since it can go through platforms.

3)Wall infinite? o_o (explain please? T_T)
Cornaria is good as long as you kill him from the sides before he gets the chance to do it to you.
Mmm....Green greens is tricky. It stops some of TL's stage control, but I'm not sure its the best choice for Ike. It just seems sorta...idk, weird. Theres little room for Ike's airials there without hitting the blocks. =/

Ike can F-Throw and regrab people against a wall and they cannot hit or airdodge out of it if the Ike does it correctly =)

 

[Sosuke]

Oh..
Why does everyone have an infinite except TL? <_<
/complain