Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[•Col•]

Oh that reminds me, shouldn't Ikes try to pick stages wheret he Blastzones are either far or close-in?

I think if they we're close would hamper Lucario's ledgegaurd game because if the blastzones are close Ike should be able to make it...maybe. Now if they were far away, doesn't that make it so that Lucario has less of a chance to make it back or something?

Well, who better to answer that than the people who know Lucario the most: the people who main him. So what's it going to be Luccies?

I also main Lucario( or secondary, I dunno. I keep alternating between Ike, Lucario, Pit, and more recently, Marth). Anyway, Lucario does much better on stages with farther blastzones than regular. Normally, BOTH characters live to higher %'s with farther blastzones, but since Lucario will be living longer, he will become even stronger than usual with the aura boost. So you'll still be dying earlier than usual.

 

[Ussi]

You Lucario mains want to actually give more input than Lucario beats Ike off stage and Ike can't beat Lucario off stage. Lets hear how Lucario will get Ike off stage ;o

 

[HeroMystic]

You Lucario mains want to actually give more input than Lucario beats Ike off stage and Ike can't beat Lucario off stage. Lets hear how Lucario will get Ike off stage ;o

"I dodge them F-Smash him off stage!"

 

[Kirk]

Wow...I had a really hard time sifting through those last few pages...lots of pointless banter and crazy arguments...

I apologize if I missed something but, what exactly is the problem here?

 

[Kinzer]

Our problem here, is that Ike is at a disadvantage, and not too many things are clear on what Ike has on Lucario.

Lucario is quite a camper with AS, and he also has a great melee combat potency.

 

[XACE-K]

Wow...I had a really hard time sifting through those last few pages...lots of pointless banter and crazy arguments...

I apologize if I missed something but, what exactly is the problem here?

Problem is Luc main said Ike won't gimp a good Luc and some random guy was like , "WHAT!!!!!!!" *insert angry comments* Luc main says more angry comments. A lot of people say angry comments and that's the problem.

In other words, how does Ike gimp Lucario?

 

[Kinzer]

In other words, how does Ike gimp Lucario?

The answer is "it's pretty d*** hard."

Also 42.

 

[Samuelson]

Brinstar
PS1
Lylat Cruise
Norfair
Pirate Ship
Corneria

Norfair, Pirate Ship and Corneria are banned where i come from. PS1 isn't really that bad, just don't get next to the well and you're good. I don't have too many issues with Lylat either, Brinstar is your best bet against Luc and even then I'm not entirely convinced that it's a great stage for Ike.

You Lucario mains want to actually give more input than Lucario beats Ike off stage and Ike can't beat Lucario off stage. Lets hear how Lucario will get Ike off stage ;o

Once Ike uses his second jump all it takes is one easy to land fair and then Ike is screwed, if you airdoge the fair then we can follow up with an even easier to land dair and you'll still be screwed. If Ike is charging his QD one AS will intercept it and Ike will fall to his death.

 

[Lex Crunch]

how does Ike gimp Lucario?

Try using Eruption when chasing... just a thought, maybe, I dunno. I'm not being sarcastic, I really don't know. Just try it...

 

[metroid1117]

It's a BS claim that he can gimp Lucario. Not once in this entire thread, has any Ike player even given a remotely decent situation even in theory where it could happen.

Referring to my post: (#1061)

The most effective way Ike can gimp a Lucario who doesn't know how to DI is walk-off FAir.

The only way Ike can gimp a Lucario who knows how to DI is walk-off DAir for the spike. Stage-spike FAir is so rare that it's no good in counting it for a match-up analysis.

Ike has huge difficulty in gimping a good Lucario. The only time you'll get a walk-off DAir is if they go upwards with up+B to the edge or if they start their up+B too close to the stage, such as at 2:01 in this video. Even if they start their up+B below the stage, they can curve it so that they go around you.

Lucario-Ike is a clear disadvantage for Ike. Once Lucario gets off something, Ike isn't going to get out without taking major damage. The ONLY things Ike has over Lucario are power and range, weight is a disadvantage here because it keeps him closer for the combos. An Ike off-stage is as good as a dead Ike if the Lucario is any good at timing the Aura Sphere, whereas a smart Lucario can come back without much worry.

Unlikely, but possible.

Also, when you said:

Excuse me, but not once did I say 100:0 anywhere in this entire thread. You guys can't read.

I think Arturito was referring to this post:

Ike can not beat a good Lucario. Anyone who thinks otherwise has not played a good Lucario. That is all.

(post #1021)

Did you mean in a set of matches, or any/all matches? The latter interpretation would contradict the first statement I quoted.

 

[Timbers]

Wow...I had a really hard time sifting through those last few pages...lots of pointless banter and crazy arguments...

I apologize if I missed something but, what exactly is the problem here?

It was just recently uh.."resolved" that..Ike can't gimp Lucario at 80% by simply walking off the stage and fairing him away...

Yeah, that's what the majority of this discussion has been about, and it wasn't my intention. I was trying to break the ice on this matchup and someone said i was being arrogant etc etc...

Other elements of this debate/argument/whatever include Ike's uB, Ike's notable moves in this match, Lucario's notable moves, and some other relatively pointless ****.

Don't think there's a problem anymore, as any past conflict was resolved by last post.

You Lucario mains want to actually give more input than Lucario beats Ike off stage and Ike can't beat Lucario off stage. Lets hear how Lucario will get Ike off stage ;o

I think you should read my posts and stop generalizing the entire boards. You're insane if you seriously think that Ike isn't going to be using his uB at all in this matchup. Luc has a good deal of moves with horizontal knockback (bair, nair, dsmash, fair, ftilt, dair) so making Ike use that uB won't be the hardest thing in the world.

I honestly don't believe that Ike's recovery is as easy to gimp as walking out there and fairing them. I've played enough Ikes to see how smart they are in abusing SA frames, however if you guys are hit out of your uB by an fsmash or aurasphere at moderate damages, it makes gimping Ike much more easier and at that point it's entirely Lucario's fault if he doesn't knock Ike away with an fair before Ike is in an ideal position to uB once more.

Norfair, Pirate Ship and Corneria are banned where i come from. PS1 isn't really that bad, just don't get next to the well and you're good. I don't have too many issues with Lylat either, Brinstar is your best bet against Luc and even then I'm not entirely convinced that it's a great stage for Ike.

Leave it to the Ike mains to tell us what stages are good for Ike, and which are bad. Lucario does bad on brinstar anyways, so it's not that farfetched that a longrange heavy hitter like Ike would like Brinstar. I don't see a big problem with PS1 against Ike (considering PS1 is generally a stage for faster characters to thrive on), but I'm not going to argue it. We know less about Ike than the Ike mains do.

Just like I'll say that Lucario's good CPs are Frigate, Japes, and Mansion...and I'd argue that Lucario's CP list is much more severe to Ike than Ike's are to Lucario. I've never seen Ike's recovery do very well in Japes' water or Frigate's right edge.

 

[HeroMystic]

The reason why PS1 is a CP stage for Ike is because Ike has a wall infinite on the rock stage. The "normal" setting of the stage is not good, but all the other settings gives Ike some leeway.

It's not the best on the list (Corneria would be our best CP), but it's viable.

 

[Ussi]

I think you should read my posts and stop generalizing the entire boards. You're insane if you seriously think that Ike isn't going to be using his uB at all in this matchup. Luc has a good deal of moves with horizontal knockback (bair, nair, dsmash, fair, ftilt, dair) so making Ike use that uB won't be the hardest thing in the world.

I honestly don't believe that Ike's recovery is as easy to gimp as walking out there and fairing them. I've played enough Ikes to see how smart they are in abusing SA frames, however if you guys are hit out of your uB by an fsmash or aurasphere at moderate damages, it makes gimping Ike much more easier and at that point it's entirely Lucario's fault if he doesn't knock Ike away with an fair before Ike is in an ideal position to uB once more.

I did not mean to sound like Lucario can't get Ike of the stage, I just wanted to know what Lucario is going to do to achieve it. Knowing what the opponent plans to do will help with coming up with counter strategies to avoid it. That is all I wanted.

Leave it to the Ike mains to tell us what stages are good for Ike, and which are bad. Lucario does bad on brinstar anyways, so it's not that farfetched that a longrange heavy hitter like Ike would like Brinstar. I don't see a big problem with PS1 against Ike (considering PS1 is generally a stage for faster characters to thrive on), but I'm not going to argue it. We know less about Ike than the Ike mains do.

Just like I'll say that Lucario's good CPs are Frigate, Japes, and Mansion...and I'd argue that Lucario's CP list is much more severe to Ike than Ike's are to Lucario. I've never seen Ike's recovery do very well in Japes' water or Frigate's right edge.

I've liked Brinstar for some reason. One the stuff makes usmash's hitbox last a day and a half, and its soo small and not flat.

We'd probably CP Brinstar, Castle Seize, delfino. I'm thinking Halberd will do good for Ike, since Lucario doesn't kill vertically too well.

Japes will **** Ike.
Knowing Lucario does good on Mansion will be good information for us. I read about that ExtremeAwesome and have yet to see it with my own eyes ;O

All that is said and done. After reading this post, I think more respectably of you now. Before you "sounded" arrogant.

The reason why PS1 is a CP stage for Ike is because Ike has a wall infinite on the rock stage. The "normal" setting of the stage is not good, but all the other settings gives Ike some leeway.

It's not the best on the list (Corneria would be our best CP), but it's viable.

And Ike CANNOT infinite Lucario on a wall. Lucario can wall cling to get out. Unless I'm missing something/Ike can jab before Lucario can wall cling?

 

[MysticKenji]

And Ike CANNOT infinite Lucario on a wall. Lucario can wall cling to get out. Unless I'm missing something/Ike can jab before Lucario can wall cling?

I'm pretty sure Lucario can't do anything immediately out of a wall cling...how fast is a walljump/Luc's aerials?

I also don't think CS would work too well here...I barely play on it, though, so I might be missing something.

 

[HeroMystic]

And Ike CANNOT infinite Lucario on a wall. Lucario can wall cling to get out. Unless I'm missing something/Ike can jab before Lucario can wall cling?

If that was the case then everyone could get out. Ike grabs a few frames before the hitstun ends.

 

[Ussi]

If that was the case then everyone could get out. Ike grabs a few frames before the hitstun ends.

you missed my point of wall clinging... Lucario's is like the only one whose wall cling gets him out.



@Light, CS does well since the 2nd part is a walk off and the statues eat AS, the first part is small and there are platforms to abuse , the 3rd part tilts, one messing up BAS spamming, might cause Lucario to have to ES when it tilts up.

 

[Kinzer]

Castle Siege is looking quite promising right now. Still if all else fails there's still Delfino Plaza.

 

[Timbers]

All that is said and done. After reading this post, I think more respectably of you now. Before you "sounded" arrogant.


And Ike CANNOT infinite Lucario on a wall. Lucario can wall cling to get out. Unless I'm missing something/Ike can jab before Lucario can wall cling?

It's rare for me to get Ike off of the edge before moderate damages, as Luc generally doesn't want to camp the edge given how well Ike can pressure the edge. This means that b-throws are usually not the option for taking Ike out, and the rest of Luc's moves are too weak in knockback at low percents to be heavy hitting. An ideal, low-percent strategy for taking any character off the stage without the means of camping the ledge is fair->nair/dair, following up with a grab and fthrowing them. From there it's entirely up to how well Luc can read Ike. Whether Ike tries to shield the attack or uses his midair in an attempt to get away.

If Ike's shield is read, a running grab into another fthrow (by now he's off the stage) will allow Lucario to either attempt the fair gimp or wait onstage and punish aether, and then from there going to attempt the fair gimp.

Scenario 2, where Ike's midair is read, Luc can freely continue the string of fairs with little worry of Ike escaping or returning to the stage. It's entirely up to how well Ike mixes up his recovery, and how well Lucario can capitalize on the situation for this. One mistake is pretty bad for Ike though lol.

At moderate percentages, one move is all it can take to force Ike to uB however, which is then just dependent on how fast Lucario can get into position to edgeguard Ike's uB.

 

[Jim Morrison]

need more lucario infwhoremation

 

[Kinzer]

No more of that crap...I believe we have enough info on Lucario to do a write-up...even if most of it is buried under the dirt from the aftermath of the flame wars.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

*pokes head in*

Are the Elitists gone yet? I get one day of drama where I'm unable to post, then my post is buried under 3+ pages of elitists crying that their character can't possibly ever lose to a mid-tier character, random flames, and the few scraps of intelligent thoughts from both sides. Mostly flames from both sides however. >_>

 

[XACE-K]

Well everything has calmed down. You can make an intelligent post now even though I think we have enough info.

Now let's make Boozer next. :D

 

[Kinzer]

We need to do MAMA LUIGI instead. Although I can't hit a women, it goes against morals.

I'm also up for the Falcon...although we have no chance, because he's so manly, he fights with his bare fists/knees/nipples.

 

[XACE-K]

We need to do MAMA LUIGI instead. Although I can't hit a women, it goes against morals.

I'm also up for the Falcon...although we have no chance, because he's so manly, he fights with his bare fists/knees/nipples.

How about we pull an SBR and go with Mewtwo?

I'm okay with anybody as long as it isn't Kirby.

Spoiler

I have wierd reasons why we sholdn't pick him next.

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm okay with anybody as long as it isn't Kirby.

Spoiler

I have wierd reasons why we sholdn't pick him next.

OCD is NOT a reason.

 

[XACE-K]

OCD is NOT a reason.

In that case, I no longer have a reason. Way to go Light....

Spoiler

Don't do Jiggs either, I hate her. A lot.

 

[Timbers]

*pokes head in*

Are the Elitists gone yet? I get one day of drama where I'm unable to post, then my post is buried under 3+ pages of elitists crying that their character can't possibly ever lose to a mid-tier character, random flames, and the few scraps of intelligent thoughts from both sides. Mostly flames from both sides however. >_>

You realize the only post you made for Lucario vs. Ike was telling the Luc boards that they're whiney fanboys, right?

 

[Ussi]

Let's not start anything ^^;; We're thankful for the information provided Timbers, least I am.

 

[Kinzer]

Mewtwo FTW!

*Sprint*

 

[Ussi]

Mewtwo is broken, seriously, everything about him is broken. Not even MK stands a near chance against him.

 

[XACE-K]

Mewtwo FTW!

*Sprint*

Of course Mewtwo is FTW. Isn't that common knowledge by now?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

You realize the only post you made for Lucario vs. Ike was telling the Luc boards that they're whiney fanboys, right?

I never said I was part of the solution. Heck, I was going to make it worse. And it was directed at that one guy, not you or most, if not all, the rest of the Lucario mainers that have posted here. >_>

But anyways, we're moving on now.

I say Bowser. Because there is no freaking way he should be that high up, but then again, what do I know? it is a more interesting match-up.

 

[Kinzer]

Regardless of The Boozer's tier placing, he's quite the character in brawl.

Boozer for #18.

 

[YagamiLight]

Eh, I'm not a giant fan of Bowser, and Ike beats him handily anyways. We're more or less done with Ike's disadvantages, however. If anyone isn't lazy and wants to make a list of the characters not done yet, that'd be cool.

 

[Kirk]

Eh, I'm not a giant fan of Bowser, and Ike beats him handily anyways.

Let's not jump start things here...we don't want angry Bowser mains coming in prematurely. Especially when one makes a statement that isn't very true to begin with.

 

[YagamiLight]

Let's not jump start things here...we don't want angry Bowser mains coming in prematurely. Especially when one makes a statement that isn't very true to begin with.

My strategy actually WAS for angry Bowser mains to arrive, since that Lucario debacle actually had good information in it, though it was buried in flames. As for what the percentage number actually is, it's probably a very slight advantage for Ike, but that doesn't matter at this point.

After number 18 is the midway point in which I'll probably post a list of character names with a >, <, or = next to it, just to check to see what people think. No actual numbers yet, that's still for the end.

Spoiler

Bowser is number 18, but only if people can find a cool picture.

 

[Guilhe]

Let's do one of the PK boys, or Luigi!

 

[Kinzer]

http://www.pressthebuttons.com/images/Twist_Bowser_big.jpg

EVERYBODY DANCE NOW!

OM NOM NOM NOM!

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/contest/etc/etc58_360.jpg

Further Edit: I seriously like this one, even though it's Bowser from the Super Charged Game. Even Gimpyfish ahs this as his Avi/sig.

http://www.hmtk.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/bowserms.png

 

[XACE-K]

Bowser is number 18, but only if people can find a cool picture.

http://img.gamespot.com/gamespot/im...e/supersmashbrosmelee/ssbm_0518_screen002.jpg

http://images.miiplaza.net/tag/640/480/scale/7122/Bowser_16990_20070801143833.bmp


http://images.elfwood.com/fanq/t/w/twhord2/bowser.jpg.rZd.116721.jpg

Ta-da?

And the reamianing characters are:

Mario
Luigi
DK
Diddy
Yoshi
Sheik
Ganon
Toon Link
Samus
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Fox
Rick Wheeler "Captain Falcon"
Pokemon Trainer
Jiggs
Ness
Lucas
Sonic
Random

 

[YagamiLight]

Kinzer....that giant Bowser picture totally stretched everything

And thanks, Xace. I don't think I see any Ike disadvantages in there (Except for Sheik I believe, which I don't know a whole lot about),