SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
I can respect Timber, even if he is my enemy, but.....this? This is quite the most pathetic display of ego I have ever seen. Stop talking before you lower my opinion of Luc mains ever further.
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Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness
- Thread starter YagamiLight
- Start date
Timbers
check me out
oh my god it's the marth/sonic/yoshi/wolf boards all over again.
1. You're an idiot, I don't even want to waste my time breaking down how terribly inaccurate this segment of your post is, as you completely maimed my sentence to try and use it against me.
2. Fair is one of Ike's few realistic tools in this match, Mainly provided that Ike is going to be approaching the entire time in this match, and it's like, his only move besides bair and ftilt that isn't unpunishable? Maybe I'm wrong, and the "good Ikes" like approaching with dash attacks or some ****. Salty's scenario consisted of me being hit with walkoff fairs 6 times in a row. Mine was just the queue being heavy with fairs, as trying to land anything else against Lucario (outside of jabs and bair) will prove difficult.
3. Ike can't gimp Lucario at 80% with a walkoff fair. I think ****ing everyone has already established this. Why are you trying to dig yourself deeper.
4. Luc's recovery is mediocre. It's nowhere near as good as MK's. Don't twist my words, something you've been doing since you walked in here. It makes you look the fool. Unless you like to DI one of the slowest aerials very poorly, Ike cannot gimp Lucario with fairs. The airdodge was merely an example to Salty's example that if Lucario had to airdodge he'd kill himself, which is dumb and a terribly inaccurate scenario. No, tested and proven that not once have I been gimped by an fair. Not even close. Unless you want to tell me that you've found a new and improved way for Ike to fair an opponent at like, a 10 degree trajectory, I suggest you drop this before you make yourself look anymore ********.
I can't believe you think that Lucario is just going to sit in the middle of the stage while Ike is recovering. What the ****.
Not only does Lucario have a projectile, it also gives him the opportunity to abuse his defensive options (I don't know the extent of Pit's and Falco's options on Ike, so these options might not be anymore effective than those two) Lucario is not like Falco and Pit, because Falco and Pit don't have the range they do on their aerials and, in Falco's case, their ground game (iirc Pit's fsmash outranges everything Luc has on the ground except fsmash) On top of this, the moves all have lingering hitboxes, which can make a character with moderately slow startup in their moves/aerials (Ike) much more affected by Luc's pseudo combos. I don't know how other characters deal with Ike's recovery, but I can't help but think that Lucario can harass Ike in an at least above average fashion. With a decent gimp game, and an even better edgeguard game to Ike's uB, I put my faith in that Lucario does fine on it, and considering the Lucarios you play like edgeguarding you from...the middle of the stage (lol??) that you'll most likely not agree with me.
We'd be talking much more about this matchup than what we have if some idiots didn't come in here saying "lmfao Ike can gimp Lucario at 80% with an fair."
What numbers do you place on Pit and Falco? They no doubt have a stronger camp game than Lucario (however which of the 3 actually have a superior projectile in overall gameplay is debatable) but Luc definitely has a stronger air game than the two of them.
@everyone crying that Lucarios are ignorant and we think Lucario Ike is 100:0 you're also idiots and should refer back to the entire last page. RJ's post is made of truth and accuracy. I personally think he may be stretching Ike's stage dominance, but it's the only thing I agree with anyways.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Oh, look, an idiot. See, dude, it's stuff like this that lowers my opinion of you. But it's stuff like
Originally Posted by dguy6789
No. Lucario has a significant advantage in this matchup. You can't say the reverse, Ike(of any skill level bottom to top) has no realistic chance of beating a high level Lucario in a tournament set.
I've played the best Ike in the world and numerous top level ones. Don't question my credentials. I'm not some random scrub like 99% of the Ike posters in this thread, yourself included.
The matchup isn't as close as Ike mains think it is.
Ike is too ****ty to realistically be able to gimp Lucario. The only time it will happen is if the Lucario player is garbage or makes a serious mistake. It is irrelevant to bring up as it has to do with player skill/error and not character matchup.
You're an idiot. I know more about Ike than just about every Ike main in this thread. 65:35 is quite conservative. Please refer to this post.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....postcount=1026
that proves you wrong.
Timbers
check me out
It doesn't prove me wrong. Just because dguy is also a Lucario player doesn't mean I agree with him. Generalizing the entire Lucario board to one person's opinion is ignorant. I've listened to both you and Arturito's bull**** claims on this match (mainly related to gimping Lucario...) and I still hold the Ike boards in a relatively high respect.
OK, let's stop this f***ing arguing!!! I'm f***ing sick of it!!! Some people think Ike can gimp Lucario while others don't. These are our f***ing opinions and everybody is entitled to theirs which may be different than others. That means even though we may have different opinions, that doesn't mean we have to f***ing argue.
tl;dr Let's stop arguing and move on to something else that isn't about gimping Lucario.
/angry rant
Edit: Everybody read RJs post. That is the only only Ike vs. Lucario place where we CAN'T argue.
tl;dr Let's stop arguing and move on to something else that isn't about gimping Lucario.
/angry rant
We didn't even argue this much with other character boards.
Edit: Everybody read RJs post. That is the only only Ike vs. Lucario place where we CAN'T argue.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Actually, it does. See, he's one of the three Luc players that has come into this thread (IIRC) and he's been a total dip****. You haven't exactly established yourself as the epitome of humility and politeness either. But nevermind that, you've generalized many statements yourself.
And when it comes to bull**** claims, that's how matchup arguments go. Party 1 makes bull**** claim, namely your "Ike can't gimp Luc" claim. Party 2 makes bull**** claim, namely mine and Arturito's claim, which boils down to "lol fair". We argue the merits of these claims, and come to a conclusion, and that's the way it works.
Lastly, although you claim to have respect for the Ike boards in general, you don't seem to have much respect for anybody who's posted in this thread.
Now let's get back to the matchup, shall we?
Timbers
check me out
You'd rather have faulty data in your matchup analysis?
Ike can't gimp Lucario with fairs. No bull**** in there. If you want to gimp Lucario you're best off going for an aether or dtilt or something.SaltyKracka said:
I don't want faulty data but I don't want all this arguing either. Can't we all just get along? All this arguing is realyl reminding me of the Ike boards in the past and most of us know how they were.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Maybe he can't gimp a good Luc with fairs. That's not my point. You made an outright statement that "Ike can't gimp Lucario". I argued against it, as did A_B. My whole point is that both of our claims were BS, but we argued and have come to understand the situation better. That is how matchup threads work.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
1. Please enlighten me on how DI actually works and teach me how to DI back to the stage. If you think I'm an idiot because of that teleport statement well I didn't know how else to put it but take a look for your self at 3:50. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo
2. How the hell is it defilcult to land anything out side of Bairs and jabs on lucario? Lucario hsa the same shield as everyone else his is nothing special. I really want to here your logic on how only 2 moves that Ike has are capable of landing on Lucario.
3. I never saw "everyone" agree on lucario not being able to get gimped at 80% with an Fair and what makes you think he can't? all he has to do is jump out bait your air dodge jump again and Fair. If you think Ike can land a Dair then he can land an Fair as well.
4. I didn't twist your words you said Ike can never gimp lucario by those standards he would have to have a recovery equal to MK's.
@ lucario standing in the middle of the stage. Someone said that AS is a great edge guarding tool against aether. For it to be used like this you have to be at a distance where aether won't hit you there for at the center of the stage. Every time a lucario sends Ike off the stage they being to charge up AS if they get it in time then they shoot it at you in the air if not then they wait in the middle of the stage and shoot it when Ike uses aether.
The lucario I fight has won OOS tournaments and didn't you just read that I have fought azen's lucario?
Falco is a 70:30 and pit is probably less than that.
I still don't see any reason to believe I made a bull **** claim on Ike being able to gimp lucario. The only reason I could see for you not believing this would be that when ever Ike gimps someone they fly off and die but gimping kills anyways so its the same thing in my eyes.
My original claim was that a Fresh Fair would gimp lucario at 80% but please tell me what is so ludicrous about that. Is it because you can air dodge? is it because you can DI back towards the stage? is it because you believe that every attack Ike has kills vertically?
sorry xace I can't ignore the lucario boards delusions.
2. How the hell is it defilcult to land anything out side of Bairs and jabs on lucario? Lucario hsa the same shield as everyone else his is nothing special. I really want to here your logic on how only 2 moves that Ike has are capable of landing on Lucario.
3. I never saw "everyone" agree on lucario not being able to get gimped at 80% with an Fair and what makes you think he can't? all he has to do is jump out bait your air dodge jump again and Fair. If you think Ike can land a Dair then he can land an Fair as well.
4. I didn't twist your words you said Ike can never gimp lucario by those standards he would have to have a recovery equal to MK's.
@ lucario standing in the middle of the stage. Someone said that AS is a great edge guarding tool against aether. For it to be used like this you have to be at a distance where aether won't hit you there for at the center of the stage. Every time a lucario sends Ike off the stage they being to charge up AS if they get it in time then they shoot it at you in the air if not then they wait in the middle of the stage and shoot it when Ike uses aether.
The lucario I fight has won OOS tournaments and didn't you just read that I have fought azen's lucario?
Falco is a 70:30 and pit is probably less than that.
It does proves you wrong as dguy said he agrees with everything you said and he thinks the match up is 100:0 meaning your describing a 100:0 match up.
I still don't see any reason to believe I made a bull **** claim on Ike being able to gimp lucario. The only reason I could see for you not believing this would be that when ever Ike gimps someone they fly off and die but gimping kills anyways so its the same thing in my eyes.
My original claim was that a Fresh Fair would gimp lucario at 80% but please tell me what is so ludicrous about that. Is it because you can air dodge? is it because you can DI back towards the stage? is it because you believe that every attack Ike has kills vertically?
sorry xace I can't ignore the lucario boards delusions.
Kinzer
Mammy
Man, I really wanted to try and keep a post count of 1,337 but this has gone on long enough. No I'm not gonig to add to the blaze that already burns strong, and maybe by now we've come to realization and it has died down, so let's just move on and talk about real stuff!
I need somebody else to confirm this for me, but can't lucario Force Palm chain Ike at low %ages because he's so heavy and whatnot?
It's already been said, but don't let Lucario take you offstage. You might as well just go kill yourself because any competant Lucario player will charge AS and wait for you to try and hit the ledge with the apex of Aether. Aura Sphere is such a big and slow projectile that something would have to happen if it doesn't hit. That would be A), the Lucario mistimed the Aura Sphere, B) Ike went too low for the Sphere to hit, but by this ponit he would be dead...AS just goes out THAT far, and C) This will only work if it's a charged Aura Sphere. If it was a baby sphere it would probably not have enough knockback for Ike to worry about if it even hits him in the first place and he WILL grab the ledge.
Lucario has a jab-cancel like Ike does, don't be suprised if he goes into a 1-2-Force Palm combo.
Don't underestimate Lucario's grab. Sure it isn' the biggest grab in the game, but depending on what %ages you're and he is at, it will kill you. I play a decent Lucario, and I've shoved people to the FD blastzone with F-throw, no really it's freaking powerful. U/D-throw at low %ages will lead into a barrage of aerials, mainly Fair. I should also tell you that his Sh-Nairs also don't have too much lag on landing. Finally even thoguh his B-throw isn't backed up by his Aura, it still has knockback that can kill, I've thrown people to blastzones with this as well (although I don't it works quite as well just because you can put more emphasize on DI being B-throwed than you could being F-throwed...but Lucario's F-throw comes out FAST!).
His Dsmash is great for punishnig Rollers, his Fsmash has B+ Range on it and a small lingering hitbox to go with it, and his Usmash sticks out for a good while even if you can't see the aura...did I mention he has invisible hitboxes and his sides, even if they are small? His Utilti hits all around him, can juggle at low %ages, and probably has K.O. potential if freshened and either one of you/both of you are at the right %ages. The range on Ftilt seems okay I suppose, nice thing is it clanks with some attacks (clarification, anybody?), and hits twice.
You know, I even main Ike, and I can't find one good thing he has on Lucario (I've failed my brethren!), I would be better off Picking Sonic to fight against Lucario, because at least with Sonic I'm not an easy target to hit, not to mention I'm not for the most part dead if I get knocked offstage. I mean even the most broken character (MK) doesn't give me as much trouble as Lucario could. Light's going to have his hands full with this...
Edit: Forgot to mention that Double Team comes out quick, Dair stop's Lucario's momentum, and Bair and Uair have lingering hitboxes as well.
I need somebody else to confirm this for me, but can't lucario Force Palm chain Ike at low %ages because he's so heavy and whatnot?
It's already been said, but don't let Lucario take you offstage. You might as well just go kill yourself because any competant Lucario player will charge AS and wait for you to try and hit the ledge with the apex of Aether. Aura Sphere is such a big and slow projectile that something would have to happen if it doesn't hit. That would be A), the Lucario mistimed the Aura Sphere, B) Ike went too low for the Sphere to hit, but by this ponit he would be dead...AS just goes out THAT far, and C) This will only work if it's a charged Aura Sphere. If it was a baby sphere it would probably not have enough knockback for Ike to worry about if it even hits him in the first place and he WILL grab the ledge.
Lucario has a jab-cancel like Ike does, don't be suprised if he goes into a 1-2-Force Palm combo.
Don't underestimate Lucario's grab. Sure it isn' the biggest grab in the game, but depending on what %ages you're and he is at, it will kill you. I play a decent Lucario, and I've shoved people to the FD blastzone with F-throw, no really it's freaking powerful. U/D-throw at low %ages will lead into a barrage of aerials, mainly Fair. I should also tell you that his Sh-Nairs also don't have too much lag on landing. Finally even thoguh his B-throw isn't backed up by his Aura, it still has knockback that can kill, I've thrown people to blastzones with this as well (although I don't it works quite as well just because you can put more emphasize on DI being B-throwed than you could being F-throwed...but Lucario's F-throw comes out FAST!).
His Dsmash is great for punishnig Rollers, his Fsmash has B+ Range on it and a small lingering hitbox to go with it, and his Usmash sticks out for a good while even if you can't see the aura...did I mention he has invisible hitboxes and his sides, even if they are small? His Utilti hits all around him, can juggle at low %ages, and probably has K.O. potential if freshened and either one of you/both of you are at the right %ages. The range on Ftilt seems okay I suppose, nice thing is it clanks with some attacks (clarification, anybody?), and hits twice.
You know, I even main Ike, and I can't find one good thing he has on Lucario (I've failed my brethren!), I would be better off Picking Sonic to fight against Lucario, because at least with Sonic I'm not an easy target to hit, not to mention I'm not for the most part dead if I get knocked offstage. I mean even the most broken character (MK) doesn't give me as much trouble as Lucario could. Light's going to have his hands full with this...
Edit: Forgot to mention that Double Team comes out quick, Dair stop's Lucario's momentum, and Bair and Uair have lingering hitboxes as well.
Timbers
check me out
1. Smash DI
DI the hit, and then DI the trajectory. I seriously can't assume that you just let your controller sit there while you go flying off the stage.Doraki said:
Are we on the same page now?
2. Because Lucario is the epitome of brickwalls. Anything that doesn't outrange (or outspeed) Luc is going to be an effort to land on Lucario. This holds true for Lucario in say, Lucario vs. GaW. Between GaW's key and turtle (among other things), Luc's fair, bair, nair, uair, ftilt lose a lot of their usefulness in the matchup. Luc will be relying on fsmashes, dairs, aurasphere, and grabs much more often in this match than he would any other, and therefore those 4 moves will generally be more stale than the others. So what if Luc, or GaW, or whoever has the same shield, lol. Take a look at their movesets and their ability to control the space around them, and then tell me what are viable moves in a matchup and what aren't.
3. Sorry, when I say everyone, I mean everyone that brought it up. Besides you and Salty, anyone else who has mentioned it (which I believe are mostly Ikes) have agreed that an fair alone isn't going to gimp Lucario. Ok? Ike can land 10 fairs on Lucario while offstage (the Luc would have to obviously be ******** but go with it) and he'd still be able to make it back easily given he's DI'd the fair properly. I don't deny that Ike can't land an fair on Lucario, but like any move, it can be airdodged. For the third time, it was merely me criticizing a post that claimed that if Lucario airdodged an Ike fair, he'd die. That's not true.
4. How many characters can honestly be gimped by Ike's fair? lol. Never seen it happen. At the trajectory the fair sends a character, it'd only help most characters recover.
Lucario's fsmash outranges aether. This is the ideal position for Lucario to be when edgeguarding most characters, so this is by no means a hindrance to us. Either these Lucarios are sandbagging you hard or they honestly don't know the Ike matchup (and with Azen I'd definitely go for the former) as these are very general tactics, and Azen loves his fsmash edgeguarding. Saying he wouldn't use it on one of the easiest characters to edgeguard with fsmash is confusing to me.
It doesn't prove me wrong because dguy agrees with me. If anything it would prove him wrong, as I put the match at a 65:35 with what I've said. He's the one agreeing with me, not the other way around. Stop going and twisting my words, for however many times I've asked.
A fresh Ike fair won't send Lucario to blastzone at a "walkoff fair" position until roughly 120%. You're more than welcome to check, as I did last night, and that fair shouldn't be fresh anyways in this matchup, unless Ike has just lost a stock. I have no doubt that Ike can land an fair on Lucario while he's recovering, but the fair has poor horizontal knockback. Ike's ftilt and bair I believe are the only two moves he has that has a knockback that can actually be considered horizontal.
I'm not delusional, but you certainly are.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
Besides the chain grab kinzer you didn't really mention anything lucario has on Ike either. All those things work on every single one of his match ups.
If you can't find anything that Ike has one lucario all you have to do is what you did for lucario start listing his move set.
Nair combos to jab Jab combos to tilts. Fsmash kills lucario at like 20% what ever you want. Ike doesn't have actual things that work specifically on lucario but he has ways to deal with him like he does with every character.
Glad this was brought up again because apparently if someone who I fight does it its because they suck but this is avoidable. You just have to hold on a bit before you actually aether and AS will go right trough it.
If you can't find anything that Ike has one lucario all you have to do is what you did for lucario start listing his move set.
Nair combos to jab Jab combos to tilts. Fsmash kills lucario at like 20% what ever you want. Ike doesn't have actual things that work specifically on lucario but he has ways to deal with him like he does with every character.
From what I've seen, it somewhat does. Where you hit with the sword also depends on it.
@Arturito: Your sig isn't 100% Meta-free. It has his picture in it.
Yeah, I just felt like pointing that out for some reason. And yes that is a dumb reason.
Kinzer
Mammy
Correct...I've been hit from the very bottom of the blade and sent the opposite way... though you won't probably ever see this, it is possibly humanly possible to stage spike with a correctly-placed Fair.
Timbers
check me out
That's a good question wyvern, maybe. I've never been sent lower than a 40 degree angle though with upwards DI.
I think the tip of the blade has more of a horizontal knockback while near the hilt sends you at a more upwards angle. I'm pretty sure when the sword crosses the halfway point of the attack it sends the opponent more horizontally while hitting someone where the arc finishes them sends them backwards.
Congrats on 1337 post count Kinzer.
Congrats on 1337 post count Kinzer.
Kinzer
Mammy
Wyvern-x;5613148Congrats on 1337 post count Kinzer.[/QUOTE said:
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
lol the vid I linked shows TL getting hit like this by a walk off Fair kind of ironic I might just put my edit into this post to make stand out more.
1. Yes we are the same page how ever 3 pages ago you said DI back towards the stage you can't do this because if your moving back towards the stage because you have to be out of the hitstun animation to do that. So even though you do know what DI you used it wrong.
2. Ok you just said that things that don't out range lucario are hard to land how ever while lucario is the epitome of brick walls Ike is the epitome of range. It doesn't matter that lucario can control the space around him Ike won't be inside that space. He will be right outside your range and to close for you to AS with out being punished. Plus if Ike does get into your range all it takes is 1 blocked move to initiate the best jab in the game that can chain into kill moves.
3. There haven't been many people actually talking about it. Its been mainly me salty you and dguy. If you find some quotes of I'd say 3 or 4 people I'll gladly admit I'm wrong. by the time you are hit by 10Fairs the 10th one will just send you out of the blast zone. This is assuming you are already damaged and you just didn't voluntarily jumped off the stage and put you in a gimping position. I do agree that if lucario air dodges he won't die he is as floaty as jigs.
4. It happens. It can gimp TL so I'm pretty sure it will do it to luc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPt15QUgwW4 not knowing its possible kind of makes it seem like you don't know Ike to well.
I know luc's Fsmash outranges aether but it won't always hit even if you time it right. If you aether just right you'll go under the hit box same with AS. Azen also said he wasn't sand bagging so meh.
I'm not to sure how Fsmash edge guarding works but I always see it being spammed at the edge. Not just mindless spaming but actual well timed spaming. (I don't like this word as spaming is actually just zoning in other fighters) For the AS edge gaurding its always from a good ways away form the stage like I've described above you didn't really deny this so I guess I was right.
Anyways if these things are happing like I described then making it back to the stage is all up to Ike luc is just emphasizing on Ike's mistake big time. Of course what Ike is attempting here isn't save just a way to get around this type of edge guarding because he could be very easily speed hugged.
I'm not the one who makes statements that people who think its a 100:0 match up agree on.
Fair doesn't have exactly bad horizontal knock back its not the greatest but this is Ike we're talking about everything he has has above average knock back.. Dtilt has more horizontal knockback than Ftilt just an FYI. Those aren't the only 2 attacks Ike has its Ike we're talking about. Bthrow and Fthrow count as well.
metroid1117
Smash Master
The most effective way Ike can gimp a Lucario who doesn't know how to DI is walk-off FAir.
The only way Ike can gimp a Lucario who knows how to DI is walk-off DAir for the spike. Stage-spike FAir is so rare that it's no good in counting it for a match-up analysis.
Ike has huge difficulty in gimping a good Lucario. The only time you'll get a walk-off DAir is if they go upwards with up+B to the edge or if they start their up+B too close to the stage, such as at 2:01 in this video. Even if they start their up+B below the stage, they can curve it so that they go around you.
Lucario-Ike is a clear disadvantage for Ike. Once Lucario gets off something, Ike isn't going to get out without taking major damage. The ONLY things Ike has over Lucario are power and range, weight is a disadvantage here because it keeps him closer for the combos. An Ike off-stage is as good as a dead Ike if the Lucario is any good at timing the Aura Sphere, whereas a smart Lucario can come back without much worry.
The only way Ike can gimp a Lucario who knows how to DI is walk-off DAir for the spike. Stage-spike FAir is so rare that it's no good in counting it for a match-up analysis.
Ike has huge difficulty in gimping a good Lucario. The only time you'll get a walk-off DAir is if they go upwards with up+B to the edge or if they start their up+B too close to the stage, such as at 2:01 in this video. Even if they start their up+B below the stage, they can curve it so that they go around you.
Lucario-Ike is a clear disadvantage for Ike. Once Lucario gets off something, Ike isn't going to get out without taking major damage. The ONLY things Ike has over Lucario are power and range, weight is a disadvantage here because it keeps him closer for the combos. An Ike off-stage is as good as a dead Ike if the Lucario is any good at timing the Aura Sphere, whereas a smart Lucario can come back without much worry.
Timbers
check me out
1. I used it correctly. DI the hit and come back towards the stage. You shouldn't get so butthurt and make a fuss that i decided to cut out 3 words.
2. So you agree that Ike is this amazing character with tons of range, and I think you agree that anything that can't outspeed or outrange Lucario is hindered in the matchup. Do you agree on this? Because that would leave Ike's jabs, bair, and fair (and possibly ftilt) to be the three notable moves in this matchup...exactly what I've said for the past few pages...
3.
4. You show me ****ty players to support your argument, I'll show you ****ty Ikes to further exaggerate my own. "Don't jump into the ****" fully applies to that video.
5. The fsmash tip can hit some characters off of the ledge. There is no possible way for Ike to stay underneath the fsmash, unless you guys have somehow become found a way to expand Ike's sweetspot. Aurasphere also is able to clip characters on the ledge to a much greater degree than fsmash, so even if you stand by the fsmash theory, aurasphere will still catch you. Also, fsmash has a good 8 frame lingering hitbox, so timing isn't exactly a difficult issue here, especially given how telegraphed Ike's recovery is.
6. If my point didn't get across last time, then I'll reiterate. Luc's ideal position for edgeguarding is where his fsmash tipper range is. Not only for fsmashes, but this is also where he can use aurasphere, dtilt, fair, ftilt...depending on the situation and the character he's up against.
7. The only not-lethal way Ike can recover is if Lucario just had a big hit on Ike, and he'll be able to use his uB back to the stage before Luc has a chance to get into an edgeguard position, or aurasphere won't make it in time to hit Ike, or he like does a quickdraw really high above the stage or some **** and is willing to trade an extra 10-15% damage for a safer recovery. I don't know how viable an option that is, but merely throwing that out there. If Ike uses a uB while Luc is in a fitting position to edgeguard him, Ike will be hit out of the uB every single time. The chance he doesn't is Lucario's failure to capitalize on the situation, not the other way around.
8. Of course no ones going to think you're making 100:0 claims lol, because saying Ike even has an advantage in this match is blasphemy. It's 60:40 at least.
9. Luc is one of the floatiest characters in the game, alright. His aerial movement is above average. Any slight vertical trajectory only helps him recover. I keep saying this and will continue to say this, the only thing that will gimp a competent Luc are semispikes and spikes. Not even DDD's WoP can come close to gimping Luc, provided that that Luc has saved his midair.
2. So you agree that Ike is this amazing character with tons of range, and I think you agree that anything that can't outspeed or outrange Lucario is hindered in the matchup. Do you agree on this? Because that would leave Ike's jabs, bair, and fair (and possibly ftilt) to be the three notable moves in this matchup...exactly what I've said for the past few pages...
3.
edit: and what metroid1117 said.
4. You show me ****ty players to support your argument, I'll show you ****ty Ikes to further exaggerate my own. "Don't jump into the ****" fully applies to that video.
5. The fsmash tip can hit some characters off of the ledge. There is no possible way for Ike to stay underneath the fsmash, unless you guys have somehow become found a way to expand Ike's sweetspot. Aurasphere also is able to clip characters on the ledge to a much greater degree than fsmash, so even if you stand by the fsmash theory, aurasphere will still catch you. Also, fsmash has a good 8 frame lingering hitbox, so timing isn't exactly a difficult issue here, especially given how telegraphed Ike's recovery is.
6. If my point didn't get across last time, then I'll reiterate. Luc's ideal position for edgeguarding is where his fsmash tipper range is. Not only for fsmashes, but this is also where he can use aurasphere, dtilt, fair, ftilt...depending on the situation and the character he's up against.
7. The only not-lethal way Ike can recover is if Lucario just had a big hit on Ike, and he'll be able to use his uB back to the stage before Luc has a chance to get into an edgeguard position, or aurasphere won't make it in time to hit Ike, or he like does a quickdraw really high above the stage or some **** and is willing to trade an extra 10-15% damage for a safer recovery. I don't know how viable an option that is, but merely throwing that out there. If Ike uses a uB while Luc is in a fitting position to edgeguard him, Ike will be hit out of the uB every single time. The chance he doesn't is Lucario's failure to capitalize on the situation, not the other way around.
8. Of course no ones going to think you're making 100:0 claims lol, because saying Ike even has an advantage in this match is blasphemy. It's 60:40 at least.
9. Luc is one of the floatiest characters in the game, alright. His aerial movement is above average. Any slight vertical trajectory only helps him recover. I keep saying this and will continue to say this, the only thing that will gimp a competent Luc are semispikes and spikes. Not even DDD's WoP can come close to gimping Luc, provided that that Luc has saved his midair.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
1. leaving out 3 words changes a sentence completely I think he is gay - 3 words = I gay. It's a mistake you made you shouldn't just pass it off as o that guy got butthurt.
2. Sure if you add. Dash attack, Nair, Fsmash, Usmash and remember that Jabs combo into grabs and into every Tilt.
3. Ok fine walk off Fair doesn't gimp it flat out kills luc so w/e it accomplishes the same goal.
4. Kirk doesn't upload videos against ****ty players that was just a bad performance that time. how the hell are you not going to jump into **** when your trying to make it back to the stage? I wasn't even pointing out at the whole video I was just point out that first kill where you asked can if it could gimp characters and weather the person getting killed is ****ty or the answer is still yes it can.
5. Umm yes it expands Ike's SS you can aim just under the ledge and still get pulled in by the magnetic forces of the stage.
6. you didn't mention speed hugging so it pretty much is up to the Ike weather to make it back or not because I don't think any of those hits out range aether and hit under the stage's floor level.
7. Seriously you can go under this I've had Fsmashes and AS with there hitbox right above me missed while I recover.
8. not sure what that is at I'm just gana put it behind me.
9. At decent percent then Luc will just die from getting hit by Fair if you don't want to count this as gimping fine he can't gimp luc with Fair. How ever at a low percent Fair can set up for an aether spike as it will just push you slightly horizontally with hardly any vertical knock back when you both try and and come back towards the ledge you'll end up getting spiked.
2. Sure if you add. Dash attack, Nair, Fsmash, Usmash and remember that Jabs combo into grabs and into every Tilt.
3. Ok fine walk off Fair doesn't gimp it flat out kills luc so w/e it accomplishes the same goal.
4. Kirk doesn't upload videos against ****ty players that was just a bad performance that time. how the hell are you not going to jump into **** when your trying to make it back to the stage? I wasn't even pointing out at the whole video I was just point out that first kill where you asked can if it could gimp characters and weather the person getting killed is ****ty or the answer is still yes it can.
5. Umm yes it expands Ike's SS you can aim just under the ledge and still get pulled in by the magnetic forces of the stage.
6. you didn't mention speed hugging so it pretty much is up to the Ike weather to make it back or not because I don't think any of those hits out range aether and hit under the stage's floor level.
7. Seriously you can go under this I've had Fsmashes and AS with there hitbox right above me missed while I recover.
8. not sure what that is at I'm just gana put it behind me.
9. At decent percent then Luc will just die from getting hit by Fair if you don't want to count this as gimping fine he can't gimp luc with Fair. How ever at a low percent Fair can set up for an aether spike as it will just push you slightly horizontally with hardly any vertical knock back when you both try and and come back towards the ledge you'll end up getting spiked.
Timbers
check me out
1. You know it was still completely irrelevant to the matchup, don't put the blame on me.
2. Nair is slower and is outranged by Lucarios fair. Anything that has less range than Luc's fair in the air is frowned upon by me, especially if it's also slower. Luc's fair has pretty lame range on it, so when someone with even less range AND slower than his fair I'll jump on greatly. Fsmash is slow, as well as usmash. Neither of these two moves should ever be used in pressuring Luc, unless he's somehow forced to recover next to Ike, where he's actually vulnerable lol. I've punished probably every dash attack I've had thrown at me by Ike, unless it was used as a form of tech chasing. I don't know why you can't accept the fact that Ike isn't going to use his entire moveset equally in a match. Some moves do better than others, given the opponent you have.
3. A fresh fair doesn't kill Luc until 120% iirc when offstage. The fact you've actually admitted you were wrong in this (finally) only tells me that you were speaking only from theory and not experience. I would advise you not to do that anymore, and actually speak on what has and has not worked for you ingame. Theory=bad.
4. Ok bad performance, whatever. Same thing in my eyes. Maybe certain characters are hindered and forced to use their midair IMMEDIATELY after falling off the stage (lol?) but Luc can easily space himself and wait for an opportune moment to recover, with dair stalling and his general floaty nature. We won't be flying back at the stage as soon as well fall off of it. It was a good read on Ike's behalf, but throwing yourself at the stage as soon as you fall off is generally frowned upon. That'd be like seeing an Ike trying to jump back onto stage as soon as he was knocked off, only to be hit out of his midair and ultimately gimped.
5.Not what I meant. Fsmash I know hits some characters on the ledge, but I don't know if it will hit Ike when he's at his exact lowest point, but a full aurasphere anywhere above 60% will hit him indefinitely. Also recovering that low all the time is just asking to be hogged by our extreme speed, I would advise against making a habit out of it.
6. i was going to make a video on ES hog because I didn't want another theory war to break out, but thank you for mentioning it. Any ike that gets too comfortable recovering low can be punished by this.
7. read above.
8. -
9. read above
2. Nair is slower and is outranged by Lucarios fair. Anything that has less range than Luc's fair in the air is frowned upon by me, especially if it's also slower. Luc's fair has pretty lame range on it, so when someone with even less range AND slower than his fair I'll jump on greatly. Fsmash is slow, as well as usmash. Neither of these two moves should ever be used in pressuring Luc, unless he's somehow forced to recover next to Ike, where he's actually vulnerable lol. I've punished probably every dash attack I've had thrown at me by Ike, unless it was used as a form of tech chasing. I don't know why you can't accept the fact that Ike isn't going to use his entire moveset equally in a match. Some moves do better than others, given the opponent you have.
3. A fresh fair doesn't kill Luc until 120% iirc when offstage. The fact you've actually admitted you were wrong in this (finally) only tells me that you were speaking only from theory and not experience. I would advise you not to do that anymore, and actually speak on what has and has not worked for you ingame. Theory=bad.
4. Ok bad performance, whatever. Same thing in my eyes. Maybe certain characters are hindered and forced to use their midair IMMEDIATELY after falling off the stage (lol?) but Luc can easily space himself and wait for an opportune moment to recover, with dair stalling and his general floaty nature. We won't be flying back at the stage as soon as well fall off of it. It was a good read on Ike's behalf, but throwing yourself at the stage as soon as you fall off is generally frowned upon. That'd be like seeing an Ike trying to jump back onto stage as soon as he was knocked off, only to be hit out of his midair and ultimately gimped.
5.Not what I meant. Fsmash I know hits some characters on the ledge, but I don't know if it will hit Ike when he's at his exact lowest point, but a full aurasphere anywhere above 60% will hit him indefinitely. Also recovering that low all the time is just asking to be hogged by our extreme speed, I would advise against making a habit out of it.
6. i was going to make a video on ES hog because I didn't want another theory war to break out, but thank you for mentioning it. Any ike that gets too comfortable recovering low can be punished by this.
7. read above.
8. -
9. read above
Ussi
Smash Legend
Lets try to avoid anything rash people :\
I'll say this, Lucario coming back to the stage is not coming back unscratched. Ike can edge hog then when Lucario passes over him in ES (assuming he curves towards the stage), Ike drops down and aether while Lucario is vulnerable giving him 15-20% damage.
Ike's has two ways of scoring early kills which is fsmash and gimping, both are not as likely as Lucario AS hitting Ike out of aether. Still, there are mind games to recover, we Ike's have trained to recover since it's Ike's biggest weakness, but no denying Lucario's AS owns Ike's recovery.
Burrito- Jab will only combo into utilt and dtilt, ftilt is way to slow.
Timbers-
One, usmash is used to punish air dodging/rolling, hopefully Lucario won't be abusing his amazing roll. But usmash can beat out Lucario's dair, so basically its a mind game between lucario air dodging or attacking Ike before he releases his usmash. Fsmash is basically the same thing but ~_~ I don't know why Burrito included it, its not used much unless its for really obvious rolling.
Two, granted Luc's fair will beat Ike's nair, therefore we won't use it as a shield in the air but as a combo starter thats all. It is Ike's only true combo. Also, we will use nair to punish air dodges and chase rolling in the air. Nair is not useless.
three, dash attack is tech chase as you said. Its got good range as well from a standing position. otherwise discarded for being too punishable.
four, anyone can punish an OBVIOUS move they see coming.
How heavy is Lucario? I thought he was in the lighter half? Hmm fresh fair not killing at 120% sounds weird, but I'm gonna assume it was the angle you get sent in.
I'll say this: Lucario can't be at tipper fsmash range at Battlefield to edgeguard or he'll eat an aether due to the slant on the edge. But that doesn't factor the match up, I just wanted to say that so BF is a good choice to bring Lucario to make the match up more even. (Staying too far makes it harder for luc to edge guard, not impossible just harder than on other stages) Again I'm only saying how this stage affects the match NOT the match up in general. Since Stages do factor the match for knowing where to CP. So walk offs + BF = better for Ike against Lucario. Something to keep a note of.
Also when it comes to edge guarding, its options that matter and how Lucario's options override what Ike can do to him. Now a good lucario may normally make it back, but a good Ike should be trying to predict where Lucario is going to attack him, not flat out go at him. Ike can run off fair, dair, or UAIR (mind games ftw) also I believe Ike can do a mid air jump to bair after his run off fair before aethering back, something to also keep mind of. Again, I'm not saying Lucario will fall for it, I'm saying what Ike can do. You can't say that lucario will make it back 100% of the time though.
I'll say this, Lucario coming back to the stage is not coming back unscratched. Ike can edge hog then when Lucario passes over him in ES (assuming he curves towards the stage), Ike drops down and aether while Lucario is vulnerable giving him 15-20% damage.
Ike's has two ways of scoring early kills which is fsmash and gimping, both are not as likely as Lucario AS hitting Ike out of aether. Still, there are mind games to recover, we Ike's have trained to recover since it's Ike's biggest weakness, but no denying Lucario's AS owns Ike's recovery.
Burrito- Jab will only combo into utilt and dtilt, ftilt is way to slow.
Timbers-
One, usmash is used to punish air dodging/rolling, hopefully Lucario won't be abusing his amazing roll. But usmash can beat out Lucario's dair, so basically its a mind game between lucario air dodging or attacking Ike before he releases his usmash. Fsmash is basically the same thing but ~_~ I don't know why Burrito included it, its not used much unless its for really obvious rolling.
Two, granted Luc's fair will beat Ike's nair, therefore we won't use it as a shield in the air but as a combo starter thats all. It is Ike's only true combo. Also, we will use nair to punish air dodges and chase rolling in the air. Nair is not useless.
three, dash attack is tech chase as you said. Its got good range as well from a standing position. otherwise discarded for being too punishable.
four, anyone can punish an OBVIOUS move they see coming.
How heavy is Lucario? I thought he was in the lighter half? Hmm fresh fair not killing at 120% sounds weird, but I'm gonna assume it was the angle you get sent in.
I'll say this: Lucario can't be at tipper fsmash range at Battlefield to edgeguard or he'll eat an aether due to the slant on the edge. But that doesn't factor the match up, I just wanted to say that so BF is a good choice to bring Lucario to make the match up more even. (Staying too far makes it harder for luc to edge guard, not impossible just harder than on other stages) Again I'm only saying how this stage affects the match NOT the match up in general. Since Stages do factor the match for knowing where to CP. So walk offs + BF = better for Ike against Lucario. Something to keep a note of.
Also when it comes to edge guarding, its options that matter and how Lucario's options override what Ike can do to him. Now a good lucario may normally make it back, but a good Ike should be trying to predict where Lucario is going to attack him, not flat out go at him. Ike can run off fair, dair, or UAIR (mind games ftw) also I believe Ike can do a mid air jump to bair after his run off fair before aethering back, something to also keep mind of. Again, I'm not saying Lucario will fall for it, I'm saying what Ike can do. You can't say that lucario will make it back 100% of the time though.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
1. ok w/e it was still something you said in this match up discussion if you want people to validate your opinion more don't cut words.
2. How fast is lucarios Fair because Nair isn't slow and I'm pretty sure it has more range than luc's Fair because it doesn't have pitiful range. Don't throw away Usmash and Fsmash just because they are slow you wouldn't believe how many times this can actually hit and how many people no matter how good they are. Dash attack has as much range as Ftilt I don't know how your punishing it and no Ftilt which is slower.
3.
I though we where supposed to throw out personal experience on this and focus on theory. If not then you better work human error back in and take a whole nother look at Ike because he is a punisher and can kill you with the slightest mistake you make.
4. I'm not to sure what you meant here with the whole who jumps off and soon as they fall off bit mind re wording it?
5. Ok you never denied my description on Fsmash and AS edge guarding so you aren't in a real position to edge hug. go ahead and make that video though because I'm not to sure how an attack with no hit box is going to edge hug a vertical projectile that leads into a spike. I can only imagine it ending one way.
6. above.
7. I've gone under both of these things at like 150% the things where right above at the apex as well they didn't time it wrong they didn't miss they couldn't hit me.
turning 9 into 8. I started to describe a different scenario where you end up aether spiked the above doesn't apply.
Ussi
Smash Legend
ftilt has much more shield stun and push than dash attack Burrito.
Kinzer
Mammy
Oh that reminds me, shouldn't Ikes try to pick stages wheret he Blastzones are either far or close-in?
I think if they we're close would hamper Lucario's ledgegaurd game because if the blastzones are close Ike should be able to make it...maybe. Now if they were far away, doesn't that make it so that Lucario has less of a chance to make it back or something?
Well, who better to answer that than the people who know Lucario the most: the people who main him. So what's it going to be Luccies?
I think if they we're close would hamper Lucario's ledgegaurd game because if the blastzones are close Ike should be able to make it...maybe. Now if they were far away, doesn't that make it so that Lucario has less of a chance to make it back or something?
Well, who better to answer that than the people who know Lucario the most: the people who main him. So what's it going to be Luccies?
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
yah I just remembered that idk what I was thinking forget about Dash attack being unpublishable how ever it is a very good way to punish lucario landing or rolling or just hit him after a throw.
Just a thing I want to add what would lucarios best stage be out of the starters if we are stage striking to get a better grip on what a "neutral" set up would be.
•Col•
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,450
Lucario is a medium-weight... I believe he is just slightly more heavy than Mario.
And what about a stage that Ike could Aether through? I'm thinking something like Delfino, Norfair, Brinstar.... Brinstar would probably be the best, because there are slanted parts on the stage to slide when Aether's coming down...
Just throwing idea's out there... D:
Ussi
Smash Legend
You must be more patient! Ike's playstyle requires patience. If you don't think about what your saying you'll fall for traps more easily ;o
Kinzer
Mammy
Distant Planet...yeah, I could see how "uncommited" stages like that could help.
I can see Delfino being one of the Ike/Lucario CPs, luckily Lucario's Dair can't spike so worst case scenario is that you don't tech the walls on that one stage...or if it's on the beach place...you will get sent to the blastzone I suppose...but it's still pretty good otherwise! It has walk-offs, so no need to worry about AS gimp kills for the most part. Who nominates DP as well...anybody?!
I can see Delfino being one of the Ike/Lucario CPs, luckily Lucario's Dair can't spike so worst case scenario is that you don't tech the walls on that one stage...or if it's on the beach place...you will get sent to the blastzone I suppose...but it's still pretty good otherwise! It has walk-offs, so no need to worry about AS gimp kills for the most part. Who nominates DP as well...anybody?!
Timbers
check me out
That's assuming that Lucario just barely makes it back to the stage WITH an ES. Won't happen without some help from the Lucario screwing up.
No matter how much you've trained and mindgamed into recovering, nothing is going to get rid of the huge gap between Ike's startup lag until he sweetspots that ledge. Luc does exceptionally well at punishing this. Obviously won't happen every single time, as Luc won't be in an ideal position to edgeguard Ike everytime he goes offstage, but we're best off counting our chickens when we are.
Hmm not sure how many times I've said this. Luc can stall in the air thanks to dair. If he's somehow unfortunate enough to be landing on Ike, he can stall while moving away from Ike. Luc has enough stalling options and mobility where he has no excuse ever landing on top of Ike. A platformed stage obviously changes this around, example battlefield, where Luc's movement is severely hampered...but without stage obstacles, this remains true.
No move is completely useless, they just have their priorities. I'd easily say that Ike's fair, bair, and jabs, will have much more "screentime" than the nair. I never said any move was useless, but against Luc, nair is probably not going to be a staple in Ike's game.
Of course. What does this have to do with anything though?
15th heaviest I believe.
Yes he can. I hit renegade out of his uB twice on Battlefield with fsmash.
Like I said, if Luc isn't making it back it's because you've sent him to the blastzone. He won't make it back everytime, but there will be no 80% fair gimps lol. Ike has a superior edgeguard game, in general. Lucario can edgeguard Ike more successfully than Ike can edgeguard Lucario.
iirc Luc's fair is 7 frames. Ike's nair doesn't have pitiful range, but it is a nair. Used to control space more than to reap range benefits. Luc doesn't have terrible range on his fair (it's above average I guess) but given that it's damage is pitiful and used only to open combos is what makes it less than appealing when it's outranged by/trades hits with a good chunk of the top/high tier. Ike's fair on the other hand outranges all of Luc's aerials, so it's only common sense that you'd want to abuse fair more than you would nair.
Refer to the beginning of my post on usmash/fsmash.
Ftilt can actually stun shields and has decent shield knockback. In otherwords it's potentially safe on block. Dash attack is always punishable on block.
You're suppose to use your head in matchups. What you quoted was me making a disclaimer that anyone basing information off of their 8 year old brother needs to find competent opponents. Obviously speak from experience, but use common sense. Are the people you're playing good enough to represent their character fully? Are they a good example of their character? Are you a good example of your character? **** like that.
I'm saying that you should use your midair wisely. The toon link in that video, as soon as he got thrown offstage, wastes his midair and throws himself back at the stage. Luc might have more luxuries than other characters, with his good midair, floaty physics, and dair stalling, but that shouldn't be excuse enough for other players to be so rash with their decisions. I'd kill to have a player jump right at me as soon as I knock them offstage. Easy fair gimps for me.
Luc's ES is very fast. If Ike is being predictable in "recovering low" everytime, ES hog is easy . Of course Lucario has to commit to either edgeguard or ES hog, so he has to be smart about it. But yeah, its pretty easy to "be smart" if Ike is recovering the same way everytime he goes offstage, in this case recovering as low as possible.
You have not. >_> Get someone or yourself to test it if you don't believe me. iirc, auraspheres 60% and above will hit Ike at the lowest can recover, and fsmash tipper will hit indefinitely.
Arturito_Burrito
Smash Master
The good thing about Nair is that its hit box lasts like half a minute. Nair can actually be started right after you jump and it will still hit you. Nair is a great move pratically ever Ike considres jabs the best move then Nair and Fair are debate able seconds.
Fsmash and Usmash are used to punish actions you do. You didn't discredit them as moves that shouldn't be emphasized. Even if you can stall with Dair Ike can predict that then your left wide open. Ike isn't going to do it while your out of range so your floatyness won't help much.
Yes I'm a good example of my character I'm like 1 of 5 who has actually won money with Ike. The Lucario I play against most often has been to OOS tourneys and so have I.
That isn't always a wise choice as well. Even if Lucario has a bit more luxury being floaty and Dair stalling it can still get predictable and is punishable. It can even lead into a Dair instead of Fair and thats even worse.
I'm still not sure how your going to ES from the stage to the ledge. If your talking about just using ES to ledge stall then Ike doesn't have to worry about AS and Fsmash and can just go for the stage. Granted he will get hit by a ledge attack or aerial but still be back at the stage.
You have not. >_> Get someone or yourself to test it if you don't believe me. iirc, auraspheres 60% and above will hit Ike at the lowest can recover, and fsmash tipper will hit indefinitely.[/QUOTE]
Pretty sure I have but I'll go ahead and admit to the AS possibly having a hit box that goes beyond the floor of the stage since it gets pretty big. How ever Fsmash won't hit if you space aether so you are right below the ledge. If it did why would you even need AS just Fsmash every time.
In case your wondering if this is even possible it is. If you get stuck under PS1 with aether and move during the apex you can grab onto the ledge.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
Your opinion doesn't matter, you're a ****ty player.
Silence scrub. Either respond to my posts with reasoning or get out of this thread. People like you who just flame people are trash.
You call me a dip**** because I don't sugar coat anything for all the scrubby players who live in a fairy tale where Ike is good. I have no respect for just about everyone that posted in this thread, that is true. The difference between your claims and mine, is that I am right and you are wrong.
Yeah and I am sure you won that.
Excuse me, but not once did I say 100:0 anywhere in this entire thread. You guys can't read.
It's a BS claim that he can gimp Lucario. Not once in this entire thread, has any Ike player even given a remotely decent situation even in theory where it could happen.
Sure. You can air dodge it. Ike doesn't hit good players with fair very often.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I'm gonna say that this matchup is like 70:30 in Lucario's favor. Lucario's AS destroys Ike, Lucario destroys Ike's recovery, Lucario beats Ike in the air, Lucario is faster and best of all Lucario is way sexier.
Lucario also has a plethora of stages that we can CP against Ike and Ike has almost none that he can CP against Lucario. That alone makes the matchup unfavorable for Ike. The only thing Lucario has to do is stay away from retreating fairs and watch out for his only fast kill move which is his Bair, and of course destroy him with AS since Ike is near helpless against that. If Lucario gets hit by Fsmash or Usmash then they've made a bad mistake, not saying that it never happens but it really never should.
Also, good luck gimping Lucario. I have never seen Lucario get gimped by an Ike but if somebody on the Ike boards says it's possible then it must be true right, since every Ike player here clearly knows their stuff.
How come you guys don't show the matchup numbers? You should be showing off the numbers because Ike has no bad matchups right?
Lucario also has a plethora of stages that we can CP against Ike and Ike has almost none that he can CP against Lucario. That alone makes the matchup unfavorable for Ike. The only thing Lucario has to do is stay away from retreating fairs and watch out for his only fast kill move which is his Bair, and of course destroy him with AS since Ike is near helpless against that. If Lucario gets hit by Fsmash or Usmash then they've made a bad mistake, not saying that it never happens but it really never should.
Also, good luck gimping Lucario. I have never seen Lucario get gimped by an Ike but if somebody on the Ike boards says it's possible then it must be true right, since every Ike player here clearly knows their stuff.
How come you guys don't show the matchup numbers? You should be showing off the numbers because Ike has no bad matchups right?
Kinzer
Mammy
Because people are going to argue the exact numbers, and what good do numbers do if you don't know HOW to defeat your opponent.
Now with me I'm pretty d*** clear that I know with Ike I have next to no chance to defeating Lucario. To me, he has too many things going for him. If I want to stand a ghost of a chance Vs Lucario, I have to CP the stage, or go with either Sonic, Lucario (Lol at Dittos), or Meta Knight (Yeah I said it). I need Speed to compete, in which this case Ike just doesn't have it good enough.
Although that statement doesn't help the cause, I'm not doing any good with not coming up for any solutions Vs. Lucario as Ike because I just can't see it.
Timbers
check me out
Alright you're really interpreting my posts incorrectly. I don't care what Ikes consider their best moves, what matters is whether it's worth praise as a priority move in this matchup, and given the Ikes I have played, they'll be taking their fair over nair much more often.
Again, nothing to get mad at. I think Luc's aurasphere is his best move, and yet against some characters I can't use it at all. Nothing to get worked up over, it just works better on other characters.
Nair is a combo starter for Ike, not so much an approach option...something that Ike will need to be doing at least 2/3 of this match. You're more than welcome to correct me on the wonderful uses of approaching or spacing yourself with nairs.
Floaty+dair stall lets Luc get out of a possible situation where he'd be "in range" for fsmash or usmash. I already discredited them, twice, read previous posts please. I understand how big usmash is for you guys to clear space, but it's just simply not gonna be a move you're gonna be "spamming" as often as other moves.
Alright then tell your friend to stop getting gimped at 80% by fairs so we can move on.
Using your midair AS SOON AS YOU'RE KNOCKED OFF THE STAGE is a bad idea. Toon could have backed up with a midair and simutaneously used grapple to recover back to the stage, not...jump underneath the stage.
An ideal position for Luc to recover is never going to be in a position where ike can simply walkoff and dair him. We don't recover like, right next the stage...lol.
Are you aware of Luc's ability to extreme speed from the stage to the ledge? Luc does this, gets invincibility while Ike's sword passes through him, and given the short time that Ike will be above stage level, Luc will have enough time to abuse the full invincibility of the ledge and getting up from the ledge to easily edgehog Ike. Obviously situational, but not so situational when the Ike is recovering at a maximum low everytime he's knocked offstage. There's no failsafe way for Ike to recover against Lucario, that's how it is.
It can, and it will. AS is merely another option, example being that Luc can't make it to the ledge in time to fsmash edgeguard Ike's uB, and uses the aurasphere as an alternative.
Um, ok.
MysticKenji
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HeroMystic
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It would be awesome if people like you actually read the first post.