Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[XACE-K]

Any stage that lacks platforms. Mainly Final Destination and Smashville. Out of the counterpicks, Corneria is a good Ike stage vs Zero Suit Samus.

The reason why platforms are bad for this matchup is because Sexy Samus has huge advantages fighting below Ike. Up-B and Up-Smash are ideal to use against Ike. She can also jump up and do a B-air if you have high % and go in for a kill. For a straightforward stage like FD, it's harder for her to get a kill in with her quick attacks and have to result to Side-B.

That's it for now. I'll do the full match-up on my part later.

Okay.

If you see Zamus pull out Down+B, spike her, she doesn't have a hitbox above her.

Wow, I just had a dumb moment with my previous post forgetting about spiking her. X(

Probably get more info later.

 

[Barge]

Suggestive choice of ZSS Pic Light.
Good luck with the rest of your thread

 

[XACE-K]

I checked the ZSS boards and this is what I got on how they fight an Ike. Just to note, this is old (it was from June) so it may not be the best

Strongly ZSS' advantage, but if you've played a really good Ike player, he can be hard to deal with sometimes. You really have to camp him a lot when you can. ZSS can't really get through his jabs, and he can kill her at low percentages. She can also edge guard him very well with a forward B at the top of his Up B. He really can't do much if she keeps retreating forward B's and paralyzer shots.

 

[YagamiLight]

Suggestive choice of ZSS Pic Light.
Good luck with the rest of your thread

Pretty much all the pictures I found were rather suggestive. I chose the one that was at least drawn well. And thanks for the kind words.

I checked the ZSS boards and this is what I got on how they fight an Ike. Just to note, this is old (it was from June) so it may not be the best

That's...pretty old. Still, a starting point.

 

[Dabuz]

i main zero suit samus also, so, if you face a zss who like to a lot of side b ing use that to your advantage by sheilding than dash attack cause sheilded that attack is laggy and all of her attack are fast but du to there poor range normally countering works worders on her

 

[Kinzer]

Good to know the Olimar matchup is good to go and running. As for my 2 cents on ZSS I'll post them another time when I get the chance.

Also who says the picture for Zamus is suggestive, if anything you should just sit back, rest your eyes, and enjoy the view.

 

[knightzy]

zss is going to use side b alot as it is a long fast spaqcing atack she will use quick paralizer shots to aim you up to try to knock you into the air.
alot of you underestmate zss's throws,i dont know why,almost all of her throws will get you into the air but some zss's like to use paralizer shots for a guarteed throw but ike could roll and punish so she will defenitly use dsmash and B.
downb is not a worry,it will only cause you trouble if she footstools and you miss time it so thats not a worry.
Her up smash can be trouble,as can upb but she will not try to get you onto the ground.

I may have condridicted myself but i dont care.

 

[ph00tbag]

all her good ground moves are laggy except for dtilt with is short range grab which if missed is EASILY punished so your goal is to never get into the air

Huh? Plasma Whip and Dsmash have no more than fifteen frames after the last hitbox comes back in. Dsmash on shield gives shieldhitstun but no hitlag. Dtilt is only around 20 frames long. Bair and uair have nine frames of landing lag each. Saying ZSS has lag is like saying Snake can't kill.

Yes, ZSS has a lot of start-up on Dsmash and Plasma Whip, but seriously now; you play Ike. It's not like you don't have start-up on any of your moves.

- If they need to recover from a long distance, Zamus will down-B -> whatever tether she uses. Punish them when they get closer to the stage.

Rarely will ZSS mains use Flip Jump in a way that you can punish. They'll use it when it will definitely put them above you, or between you and the stage. Flip Jump is a way to circumvent poorly planned edgeguards. It's our ace in the hole, so to speak. If you go for the edgehog, it's a Flip Jump, possibly with a flipstool. If you try to come out, or edgeguard from the stage, it's a tether. It gives us options. That's why ZSS is hard to gimp, because you have to actually be good to cut off both options. It will not be easy, and don't ever assume that.

Any stage that lacks platforms. Mainly Final Destination and Smashville. Out of the counterpicks, Corneria is a good Ike stage vs Zero Suit Samus.

Don't jump to that conclusion quite yet. You're going to beat ZSS by constricting her space and forcing her to fight close up. Since Ike has no projectile, ZSS has the advantage on any stage that gives her space to move around and spam Plasma Whip and Paralyzer. A lot of ZSS mains put FD and Smashville on their less favorite stages list, but that's because of campy spammy characters like Falco and Pit. Ike isn't so much of a problem there.

If you see Zamus pull out Down+B, spike her, she doesn't have a hitbox above her.

See my reply to XACE. If you face ZSSes that Flip Jump below you, they're not good ZSSes.

i main zero suit samus also, so, if you face a zss who like to a lot of side b ing use that to your advantage by sheilding than dash attack cause sheilded that attack is laggy and all of her attack are fast but du to there poor range normally countering works worders on her

If you normal shield the spark of Plasma Whip, your dash attack won't come in in time before she can get her own shield up, and I'm fairly sure she can either utilt or uair out of shield against you, because those are both very, very fast attacks.

------------------------------------

As for my own input, my suggestion is that you go for stages with a lot of close quarters. Frigate Orpheon is always a good idea, because it's close quarters, and it's not all that great for ZSS' recovery. This is one where you can always expect Flip Jump, because it's her only real option.

Otherwise, you'll want to force ZSS into tight spots, and rely on jabs and grabs to do a lot of your dirty work. Predict rolls and spotdodges with smash attacks, and try to follow getup rolls. Try to keep her above you with utilts, too, because she's weak below her, although she's got some trixies to get back level with her opponent.

My suggestion for edgeguarding is to trick her into Flip Jumping by edgehogging, then getting off the ledge and trying for something like a nair or bair. Seriously, this would be much more likely to trick me than just going for the spike.

Overall, ZSS out speeds, outranges, outspams and outcombos Ike. Ike can KO earlier, but ZSS will get Ike to KO %s faster, and has more options to KO him. It can't be any less than 65/35 ZSS, IMO.

 

[Royta]

My 'clan leader' mains ZZS and i've fought him numerous times.
So here's my 10 cents (yeah i'm generous)!

Basically your Jab works wonders when close up (when doesn't it?) as do grabs.
Try and stay in either her blindspot or really close by her to keep the presure going. With the blindspot i mean diagonally above her.
If you double jump fair towards her pretty much the only move that can really hit you is the DownB attack, and if you screw up the Upsmash/UpB.

The rest I can say is well, don't get stage spiked and watch out for item combo's.
When she throws her armour pieces away and the like 'jiggle' on the ground they still count as hits (like ROB's gyro), thus they can pretty much close you in (which is bad). Some ZZS will throw them out of screen at the start but imo, its an advantage they are given and they should use it (play to win).

When it comes down to stages, platforms are a risky approach since she'll eat you up if she gets underneath you with her wip combo's. But then again if you get controle of the middle of the stage you're still good. Kinda 50/50. Corneria is still a safe bet imo for a counter pick and for a standard I'd go for ... none.. really I can't think of a stage where she kinda doesn't have the advantage (out of the neutral stages that is : / )

The main problem, in my experience, is getting back on the stage. When hanging on the edge you're pretty much screwed against stunlasers and either have to get a lucky jump, lucky counter or mindgame him to get close by and start beating him up again (I try to get a shield up fast but it doesn't really work)

Would help if we knew what of our ike moves cancel out ZZS las0r and ->B.

Also...don't hang on the edge to long when she's recovering...you'll either get a nice ->B stage spike of taken down with her xD

Well, that's my thought. Hope it was usefull ^^

EDIT: I really like the thread btw, very helpfull. Thanks Light!

 

[Kinzer]

Too many sexual references I could make with the current feedback...must...resist...Aww, screw it, I can't hold it back any longer! (Anything in the paranthesis is just perverted thoughts, so just ignore them if you want to, or read them anyway for some good ol' fun.)

With all due seriousness, I would find it really hard to approach ZSS (Maybe it's because she is a girl?) from the ground, but then again if you put up a good Ike and a good ZSS, the Ike should well know by now that a ground approach is not the most recommended.

Let's see now, it's already been mentioned before, if it's possible you want to keep ZSS above you (don't ask why) on platforms and avoid being on them, or she will bust out her wip (yay!) and hold you in place (double yay!). Any neutral stage will do since they don't really have any attributes that can lean (back) into your favor. As for counterpicks, Frigate Orpheon sounds like the logical choice. Since on one of the stages it does not have a ledge on the right side and will force ZSS to do her flip jump, which gives you some options to work with (*cough*), not to mention the other stage bends down (you dropped the soap!) in the middle which kind of limits her out of her gun (OH SHI-!), and maybe some other junk I haven't mentioned.

Also already mentioned before was that ZSS has blindspots up and in front (*cough*) of her, anything there is a deadzone, so take full advantage (You heard me) of your aerial moves when making approaches from the sky.

Her Foward smash has hitboxes closely behind her (*cough* get closer), so make sure you keep that in mind for whatever reason.

Maybe somebody else can add more, but this is all I can provide (because I would make a horrible father...).

 

[Snakeee]

It's a bad match up for Ike...but I'm dead tired now so I'll probably explain why tomorrow.

 

[XACE-K]

Rarely will ZSS mains use Flip Jump in a way that you can punish. They'll use it when it will definitely put them above you, or between you and the stage. Flip Jump is a way to circumvent poorly planned edgeguards. It's our ace in the hole, so to speak. If you go for the edgehog, it's a Flip Jump, possibly with a flipstool. If you try to come out, or edgeguard from the stage, it's a tether. It gives us options. That's why ZSS is hard to gimp, because you have to actually be good to cut off both options. It will not be easy, and don't ever assume that.

So if your opponent does one possible way to edgeguard, you'll use the other way to recover.

Also Kinzer is a perv.

 

[Ussi]

Snakeee I won't believe you till i play youu! You better be at the Montage tounry on oct 4th.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'd like to say something about your D# example, his Fsmash is more powerful then yours, and his Utilt is as powerful as your Usmash, thats basically it. And watch out for that CG!

 

[Snakeee]

Snakeee I won't believe you till i play youu! You better be at the Montage tounry on oct 4th.

Ok...but we played before at Nexus. Oh yeah I used Sheik against your Ike because of the character switching rules .
Alright well I should be there, and gl.

Ok here's the basic breakdown of the match up...

-Basically, it is extremely hard for Ike to approach ZSS if she just camps him with parlayzer and side-B. She's the only character I think that has a move with more range than your F-air.

-One of the only things Ike can do that is effective against ZSS is his jab really, but a smart ZSS player will try to keep the distance as much as possible.

- Once ZSS gets a hit in, Ike can be easily comboed especially if sent into the air. Ike is too slow in the air to effectively escape her aerial game.

- Ike can be hit out of his Up-B at its high point with ZSS' side-B. On the edgeguarding portion of the match up in general, ZSS has a heavy favor and it is hard for Ike to edgeguard her at all.

 

[XACE-K]

-Basically, it is extremely hard for Ike to approach ZSS if she just camps him with parlayzer and side-B. She's the only character I think that has a move with more range than your F-air.

-One of the only things Ike can do that is effective against ZSS is his jab really, but a smart ZSS player will try to keep the distance as much as possible.

- Once ZSS gets a hit in, Ike can be easily comboed especially if sent into the air. Ike is too slow in the air to effectively escape her aerial game.

- Ike can be hit out of his Up-B at its high point with ZSS' side-B. On the edgeguarding portion of the match up in general, ZSS has a heavy favor and it is hard for Ike to edgeguard her at all.

The way you make it sound, it's like ZSS is on a DDD, Falco and Olimar level in the match-up or it could just be me.

What's the match-up ratio from a ZSS main's point of view.

 

[Snakeee]

Oh and Ike's grabs can be useful I forgot to mention

It is one of ZSS' best match ups and Ike's worst.
I have it as 7/3 ZSS on my match up thread.

btw, I also play Ike a good deal myself, and I've played against really good Ike players.

XACE the match up is nothing like against Falco, Oli, or DDD. You probably just noticed the basic strats that apply for most characters.

 

[Dabuz]

well, from my point of view(for zss) its probably 65/35 only due to the fact that a few hits and correct gimpage kills zss

 

[Kirk]

I personally don't see how it is that big of an advantage as you say...

I've played my fair share of good ZSS's, both super campy and more aggressive, and I don't have much trouble at all.

I just punish paralyzer lag, jab them to hell, and KO with anything cause she's so light. ZSS does have an advantage on edgeguarding, but there are options to get around it if you know what you're doing. Though you have the advantage of edgehogging the tether and/or baiting the flip kick thingy(sorry forgot what down b is called) and punishing for it. Side-B is a pain at times, but learning to keep your distance and/or airdodging and the like can turn the tide back in your favor.

Oh and FSmash kills at like 30.

But that's just me.

 

[Kinzer]

Isn't it also possible that you can put counter more into your game when put up with a ZSS if you can read her patterns, like if I come up to one who likes to spam Side-B a lot, maybe I would want to try and connect the sweetspot with a counter for some heavy damage.

And that's just an example, who knows whenelse you could use counter to maximize punishment.

 

[HeroMystic]

7/3? I agree with the advantage, but it's not -that- big of one.

ZSS has too much lag on most of her kill moves to actually be considered that rough of a match-up. She's extremely punishable if she happens to miss. Her paralyzer is just as obvious as Ike's quick draw, and her D-Smash, while quite useful, can be predictable if used too much, but if she doesn't use it then she just lost her best set-up for combos.

And ZSS is extremely light. Getting hit with Ike's B-air at 60% can seal the deal.

6.5/3.5 ZSS at most, but personally I feel it's 6/4.

 

[Metis]

7/3 is justified, because paralyzer basically lets you land any kill move you want as ZSS against Ike. Using it properly is a matter of mindgaming, but the opportunity cost of a missed paralyzer is so low that it's pretty hard to punish properly. Paralyzer may be obvious but she can use it to cover an approach or defend against one. An off the edge paralyzer basically seals the deal against Ike. The jab and bair are most reliable moves but she can outspace the former with her grab, fsmash, and forward b, and it seems that Zamus just has a better air game than Ike, making trying to use bair pretty risky.

 

[Kirk]

I see so much emphasis on paralyzer...but to me its an invitation for a powershield --> punish...

Idk about you guys *shrug* And even if you do get hit, some of the time you can jab out of it before ZSS gets to you.

 

[Royta]

Do any of Ike's moves cancel out the Paralyzer of ->B? I mean priority-wise?
That would help if there was a move

 

[MorphedChaos]

I think the side-tilt might cancel out her side B, or counter, but I'm not sure on the Side tilt, and counter would be hard to time.

 

[Royta]

Aight, i'll try that out next match to see if it works! Hope so or i'm gonna end up toast ;p

 

[XACE-K]

I think the side-tilt might cancel out her side B, or counter, but I'm not sure on the Side tilt, and counter would be hard to time.

The counter would be hard to time but I need to see about the f-tilt. I'll try to get some info on what moves cancel her side B or not.

 

[Ussi]

Any disjointed range should cancel out the blaster. So Utilt should work but its range is not as good as other moves but its speed is more reliable.

but seriously people, Dash > powershield > jab/utilt works wonders against blaster/side B, especially since the dashing makes your powershield slide towards where you are going

Fair is the longest reaching aerial, but Link's(Maybe equal) and Samus's Zair and ZZS's Side B are the only moves that outrange it in the air.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Everyone always says that Ike is one of the easiest match ups against there characters so I hardly believe thats true now. Then again Snakeee does seem more credible than most people who make these claims and I don't have a lot of Zamus experience

Spoiler

out side of hentai

.

My 2 cents are involving stages pretty much since a lot of times there are misguided opinions on what to choose.

First off Norfair + teather = gayness so don't go there.

FD and Smashville sound pretty bad to me or at least they don't have any reason to go after them why where they even suggested? I just like platform stages a lot better but that might just be me and ZSS can punish under them just as well as Ike can.

Hmm... what counter pick to go with. Well I hope no one suggests Luigi's as a counter pick like they did with Falco because that blaster will cover the entire space in that corridor. I

I think corneria might be the best counter pick as the giant fin/wall limits almost everyones camping except for like Snake, pit, link, and TL.



Is anyone going to mention the items though? They could be a pretty big part of the 1st stock.

 

[Ussi]

Everyone always says that Ike is one of the easiest match ups against there characters so I hardly believe thats true now.

that is the number one reason why i gave up on numbers. Hell i don't even believe in them anymore. I just play and work with what i have and use my advantages as well as I can. But some characters are right like Olimar...

Anyways~ Snakeee knows best since He lives in NY where all the great Ike's live. But I'll see what his ZZS can do ;o in a week from now. You better be ready~~ I can record too, I'd like to to add footage on what to expect/do against ZZS.

 

[XACE-K]

Everyone always says that Ike is one of the easiest match ups against there characters so I hardly believe thats true now. Then again Snakeee does seem more credible than most people who make these claims and I don't have a lot of Zamus experience

Spoiler

out side of hentai

.

He does seem credible so we should listen to him. And lol at the spoilers.

My 2 cents are involving stages pretty much since a lot of times there are misguided opinions on what to choose.

First off Norfair + teather = gayness so don't go there.

FD and Smashville sound pretty bad to me or at least they don't have any reason to go after them why where they even suggested? I just like platform stages a lot better but that might just be me and ZSS can punish under them just as well as Ike can.

Hmm... what counter pick to go with. Well I hope no one suggests Luigi's as a counter pick like they did with Falco because that blaster will cover the entire space in that corridor.

Somebody previously mentioned Frigate Orpheon as a counter pick so that might work. I just choose whatever stage I feel like.

I think corneria might be the best counter pick as the giant fin/wall limits almost everyones camping except for like Snake, pit, link, and TL.

That seems to be a good counterpick for all Ike match-ups. >_>

Is anyone going to mention the items though? They could be a pretty big part of the 1st stock.

Good ZSS will make Ike screwed with the items. Just sheild them and if you get your hands on them, throw them off the stage. You're strong eneough to deal the same amount of damage and more with all your moves. Once she can't use the items, she has to fight fairly.

Also, countering ZSS side B is useless IMO. ZSS uses it for spacing and will usually try to hit you with the tip of it. If you counter the tip, you won't hit her. The only way you can hit her is if she's just using it to hurt you and completely disregards the tip.

 

[Snakeee]

I understand people being reluctant to believe me on the match up, since a lot don't know me and I'm coming into your character's thread and saying that my main has a big advantage against theirs.

But, thanks for giving me credit guys, and sure I'll record matches Ussi...in that case can you record a couple against a Marth too because I'm debating that match up with the Marth players as well lol. I think that one is even while more Marth players say it's 6/4 Marth.

-The pieces are a big advantage, but I didn't list that since it's pretty much a given.

Counter Stages

-Frigate is not really a good choice against ZSS as she does surprisingly decent there. The missing ledge on that one side is rarely a factor, but can cause the ZSS player to recover in more obvious ways that the Ike can possibly punish.
- I actually dislike Smashville a lot, it's not the worst stage for her but The platform messes up my edgeguarding a lot. It's also not as spacious as some other stages, and I can't think of any stage better for Ike in this match up at the moment.

Stages you would want to ban

- Final Destination
- Rainbow Cruise (if you don't believe it then MM me there )
- Pokemon Stadium 1

 

[Ussi]

Sure I'll do some Ike/Marth, but ehh Marth has the advantage cause Ike has a hard time recovering against Marth. (Counter really makes you have to time/space your aether perfectly)


I hate rainbow cruise >_> (We can still play a match there ;o I want to experience the rapeage)

When it comes to stages i <3 pirate ship. I ***** a Marth there at Nexus xD I really wish i recorded that. Doom was a witness ;o

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

I know why you would want to ban RC since its the worse Ike stage of all and frigate would be second worse so idk why you would want to counter pick that, No ledge + aether = dropping the bar of soap in prison.

Why PS1 though? I can combo U tilts and cancel Fsmashes there. U tilt to F smash is coming next so watch out kirk

How does ZSS do in pirate ship as well?

Good ZSS will make Ike screwed with the items. Just sheild them and if you get your hands on them, throw them off the stage. You're strong eneough to deal the same amount of damage and more with all your moves. Once she can't use the items, she has to fight fairly.

So Ike + projectile = failure? Come on we get to wave dash with this it has to mean something in the match up we can't just throw away options with out even trying them out first. I think empy uses items well from what I read in his guide so get in here and enlighten these fools.

 

[Snakeee]

No you got that part backwards Ussi lol. The Marth players disagree that the matchup is even between ZSS and Marth. I was just wondering if I could record one or two of those as well against a Marth player.

And ahhh Pirate Ship should be banned!....but if it's on then yeah that's a good choice and probably your best bet.

 

[Kinzer]

Good ZSS will make Ike screwed with the items what items, she has nothing, and I'm not talking about the parts she sheds in the combat intro . Just sheild them and if you get your hands on them, you know what to do from there. . You're strong enough to deal the same amount of damage and more with all your moves. Yes you are.. Once she can't use the items, she has to fight fairly and she doesn't resist quite that much .

The only way you can hit her is if she's just using it to hurt you and completely disregards the tip. That part there doesn't really require a "tip".

More dirty ZSS sex jokes please.

No ledge + aether = dropping the bar of soap in prison.

YAY! Oh, and this guy here knows how it works in there.

No you got that part backwards Ussi lol. The Marth players disagree that the matchup is even between ZSS and Marth. I was just wondering if I could record one or two of those as well against a Marth player.

And ahhh Pirate Ship should be banned!....but if it's on then yeah that's a good choice and probably your best bet.

Now being serious, I could see how Pirate Ship could work into Ike's advantage, there's water in there, and if you can get ZSS in there, you should be able to work some magic in there dair spike her, not to mention the edges are too close to the water for her tether to be of any use when the ship is sailing, but I'm not too sure if that's the case or somebody will have to help me confirm that.

As for the stage hazard in there, I'm sure you can do something with them to throw her into the sack off her game.

That is all. Also I can't help but make bad jokes about this because it's going to come up anyway, and I out as well join the bandwagon.

 

[HeroMystic]

Uh... Kinzer, you can at least tone it down, it's hard to take you seriously when you do it too much. >_>;

 

[Kinzer]

Uh... Kinzer, you can at least tone it down, it's hard to take you seriously when you do it too much. >_>;

*scratches head* Yeah, okay, the striked out sentences are just there because I can put them there, but I really am seriously talking about the PS as being a decent counter.

..sorry...

 

[XACE-K]

So Ike + projectile = failure? Come on we get to wave dash with this it has to mean something in the match up we can't just throw away options with out even trying them out first. I think empy uses items well from what I read in his guide so get in here and enlighten these fools.

Well I just figured that if the items still stay on stage, Ike would get hurt more than if he got rid of them. I just have different view on it I guess.

 

[Ussi]

oh I see Snakeee, I was slightly confused since this is a Ike match up discussion not a ZZS/Marth discussion xD Sure I'll let you record some ZZS/Marth matches. Good luck with that too.

~~60% of the time my recorder gets the sound timing off -_-;; So have some music prepared~~

Pirate ship is a counter/Banned stage, it depends on the tournament. Pirate Ship would put the match in Ike's favor against ZZS since she'll fall into the water when she Up B leaving her vulnerable to Ike. Heck Ike just dominates on Pirate Ship since he can't be gimped and he has the 4th strongest dair spike. (Kills Mario fresh at 41%)