Ike : A Detailed Matchup Guide; #33 - Ness

[XACE-K]

Isn't Ike sort of forced to go on the aggresive on Olimar knowing the fact that the longer you wait to kill off the Pikmin they only become more of a threat until they bloom into flowerheads?

I don't think the flowers do anything. They're just there for decoration. If they do have some importance than I'm wrong.

 

[•Col•]

I don't think the flowers do anything. They're just there for decoration. If they do have some importance than I'm wrong.

Uh, I think they DO get a little stronger as they bloom....

 

[zrky]

Uh, I think they DO get a little stronger as they bloom....

you are correct.

 

[Kinzer]

you are correct.

And yet I'm the one who actually made the statement, I am invisible. :/

 

[•Col•]

And yet I'm the one who actually made the statement, I am invisible. :/

No, I saw it... xD I was just saying to XACE that I thought they got stronger when they bloomed as well?

 

[YagamiLight]

Because I:

a) am Tired
c) would like some more input
d) forgot "b)"

I'll probably have the analysis done by around this time tomorrow, hopefully.

 

[Kinzer]

I'm not sure what more could be said about Olimar, maybe we could get some insight from people who main him at his respective boards or something.

Really I don't know anything about Olimar because I haven't fought any recently enough for anything I have said for this matchup to be valid by a longshot.

 

[YagamiLight]

I'm not sure what more could be said about Olimar, maybe we could get some insight from people who main him at his respective boards or something.

Really I don't know anything about Olimar because I haven't fought any recently enough for anything I have said for this matchup to be valid by a longshot.

Well, if you can manage to find anyone who plays Olimar who would be willing to help, that'd be pretty cool.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Alright then I'll put my input in it tomorrow Ike boards got a bit to high and everyone is mellowed out now.

 

[Excellence]

You guys are all so innocently helpless lol. As a great ex-Olimar, I know, his pikmin do NOT become stronger as the petals bloom.

Olimar vs Ike (70:30)

Ike is simply unable to approach Olimar safely. Usually, without a safe approach one finds themselves taking about 40%, but against a good Olimar even the best Ike can go from 0% to 80% in under a few seconds. Olimar's pikmin spam force Ike to approach, there is no doubt about that. Side B in this situation will not help because Ike will stop where ever he hits a Pikmin. This means, if a Pikmin is latched to him he'll stand completely still and suffer move lag; in which time, Olimar will punish him. The same applies if he tries to recover with Pikmin latched, he's basically instantly gimped. Approach via Dash Atk is also a bad option because it will almost always go punished by a grab or Fsmash preparing you for another beating by Capitan Olimar. An aerial approach is Ike's best and only real option here. Well space Fairs can be somewhat effective, but honestly they're very predictable and easy to shieldgrab. An approach that will have some success against a less experienced Olimar would be Nair into jab combo or even Nair into grab if you feel that the Olimar will definately try to grab. Once, if you get Olimar into the air or off stage Bair/Uair mind games are your best bet. You should be aware Fair and Dair are useless at this point. Set yourself up for an Uair so that the Olimar takes the bait and air dodges or Whistles, just as they fall into attacking range Bair him/her - it's the only real way to do things. If Olimar approaches, he'll most likely use a dash grab, standing grab, or shield grab. Once grabbed, beware of his DThrow > Fair combo which is pretty fast and takes a combination of good DI and timing to dodge. Should you find yourself above Olimar, do NOT both with Counter or neutral special - they don't work. Olimar's Uair outprioritizes both these attacks and continues to juggle, just air dodge or try and mindgame your way out of it. In this match-up Olimar will most likely Bthrow, Uthrow, or Gimp you because of the amount of time Ike will stay grabbed. Be sure to DI properly to ensure you aren't sent on a horizontal flight to death.

 

[Kirk]

Quick Points: (Didn't read other posts...so I apologize in advance if stuff has been said...just wanted to get some thoughts in before the night is done)

--Edgeguard like crazy: Olimar's recovery is one of his biggest weaknesses...you must capitalize on the opportunity.

--Play the same with or without Pikmin attached: Don't be wasting your time killing them. You know why? While you are spending time with attacking blindly trying to get them off, Olimar has you right where he wants you: in a vulnerable state. Or he can just as easily take the time to pull out more Pikmin right away and go back to square one. In short, keep calm...put on the pressure(while being smart about it).

Alt option: Counter. It will auto activate with Pikmin attached, killing them in the process. Neat trick, but what is interesting is that it gives you some invincibility for a short time after Counter activates. Could prove useful in the right situation (Someone feel free to correct me about the invincibility during Counter...I'm going from memory).

--Olimar is a light piece of ****: Yeah, he can die pretty easily. Good news for you (Eruption anyone? *Pikmin squealing*).

--Don't get grabbed: Olimar's grab is ridiculous...if you hit his shield, even with good spacing, you'll still get shield grabbed more often then not. Be careful.

--USmash kills...watch for it: Self explanatory. It kills so good...just be aware.

I thought I had more...but that'll do.

Nyah.

Oh...almost forgot....

--FSmash: Use it.

EDIT:

@Excellence: I have to disagree with a lot of what you say. I trust and agree with most everything Olimar related, but the points on Ike I'm going to have to disagree. No one in their right mind would QD in an Olimar fight...that's just ********. Dash attack will actually work wonders in this fight. You just have to know how to use it properly, which I see very little Ike's doing nowadays. Fair/Dair useless offstage? I'd like to see the logic behind that. Is Olimar somehow different then every other character in the game and is immune to these attacks? Yes I exaggerate, but the fact is they work just as well as they do on any other character. Besides, you should be edgehogging/timing invincibility on the ledge against an Olimar.

I'd go on, but I'm tired :/

 

[DanGR]

I agree with everything excellence just posted, except QD and dash attack shouldn't be used though.

I'll gladly answer any questions you guys have about Olimar. Ask away. :D

 

[Kinzer]

I agree with everything excellence just posted, except QD and dash attack shouldn't be used though.

I'll gladly answer any questions you guys have about Olimar. Ask away. :D

just tell us your two cents on Olimar, we might not have many questions, but if I had to ask how far can each of his pikmin go distance-wise on different attacks, like I know that purple pikmin are good for getting strong attacks but they don't go very far, and how yellow/white pikmin go far but they have a small damage over time when latched onto somebody, which is why I believe that they might be better for grabs or stuff like that.

I think what I'm trying to say is try and put yourself in your own shoes and the shoes of Ike when you are playing a serious match, what do you find easy to perform on Ike, what do you find hard to get around when fighting him, etc.

 

[XACE-K]

You guys are all so innocently helpless lol. As a great ex-Olimar, I know, his pikmin do NOT become stronger as the petals bloom.

Olimar vs Ike (70:30)

Ike is simply unable to approach Olimar safely. Usually, without a safe approach one finds themselves taking about 40%, but against a good Olimar even the best Ike can go from 0% to 80% in under a few seconds. Olimar's pikmin spam force Ike to approach, there is no doubt about that. Side B in this situation will not help because Ike will stop where ever he hits a Pikmin. This means, if a Pikmin is latched to him he'll stand completely still and suffer move lag; in which time, Olimar will punish him. The same applies if he tries to recover with Pikmin latched, he's basically instantly gimped. Approach via Dash Atk is also a bad option because it will almost always go punished by a grab or Fsmash preparing you for another beating by Capitan Olimar. An aerial approach is Ike's best and only real option here. Well space Fairs can be somewhat effective, but honestly they're very predictable and easy to shieldgrab. An approach that will have some success against a less experienced Olimar would be Nair into jab combo or even Nair into grab if you feel that the Olimar will definately try to grab. Once, if you get Olimar into the air or off stage Bair/Uair mind games are your best bet. You should be aware Fair and Dair are useless at this point. Set yourself up for an Uair so that the Olimar takes the bait and air dodges or Whistles, just as they fall into attacking range Bair him/her - it's the only real way to do things. If Olimar approaches, he'll most likely use a dash grab, standing grab, or shield grab. Once grabbed, beware of his DThrow > Fair combo which is pretty fast and takes a combination of good DI and timing to dodge. Should you find yourself above Olimar, do NOT both with Counter or neutral special - they don't work. Olimar's Uair outprioritizes both these attacks and continues to juggle, just air dodge or try and mindgame your way out of it. In this match-up Olimar will most likely Bthrow, Uthrow, or Gimp you because of the amount of time Ike will stay grabbed. Be sure to DI properly to ensure you aren't sent on a horizontal flight to death.

Agreed. It's always nice to see a person who mains the character we're discussing help out.

I agree with everything excellence just posted, except QD and dash attack shouldn't be used though.

I'll gladly answer any questions you guys have about Olimar. Ask away. :D

Do the pikmin really get stronger when they bloom? When I searched, I saw posts and topics saying arguements on both sides of the discussion so I'm not to sure.

 

[YagamiLight]

I agree with everything excellence just posted, except QD and dash attack shouldn't be used though.

I'll gladly answer any questions you guys have about Olimar. Ask away. :D

Oh, this is helpful. Well, guess I might as well ask something:

What color of Pikmin is most useful against Ike, or just most useful in general? And, secondly, which Pikmin are regarded as generally poor? And finally, what methods of sorting would an Olimar use commonly?

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

just test it your self people take olimar wait a bit on his pikmin then see if he does more damage or not. If only knock back increases use the purple see what percent he kills Ike at with U smash then lower it by 1 and wait till he blooms. If he dies it does increase it.

DanGR I see a lot of olimars throw away purple whats up with that? (expand on it a lot please don't do something like purple is gay)

on a side note I might not write my thing till late at night so I think I'll just debate on the match up writen.

 

[Kinzer]

just test it your self people take olimar wait a bit on his pikmin then see if he does more damage or not. If only knock back increases use the purple see what percent he kills Ike at with U smash then lower it by 1 and wait till he blooms. If he dies it does increase it.

DanGR I see a lot of olimars throw away purple whats up with that? (expand on it a lot please don't do something like purple is gay)

on a side note I might not write my thing till late at night so I think I'll just debate on the match up writen.

You still have the rest of the day, Light said himself he wouldn't get started on the matchup until later tonight and if he had more information.

Anyway I can't really see how White Pikmin can suffice, sure they have the poison but don't Yellow Pikmin have the same thing except with the electrical attribute?

And I don't know what Olimar would get rid of purple pikmin, sure they are a burden but can't they score early kills on not just Ike but anybody else if done right?

 

[Dabuz]

well, the reason olimars get rid of purple pikmin is becasue of there short range an aggressive person like ike causes olimar to have trouble keeping the pikmin order in their mind and a purple due to its bad range for sheild grabbing and fsmashing can screw up spacing allowing ike to get a free hit

also, white pikmin do ALOT more damage with latch than all other pikmin including yellow but white is the weakest in terms of knockback,

also, really good timed aerial counters work wonders along with fast falling to aa to aa, ect. combos on olimars who don't know how to sheild grab in between hits,

the only real advice i can give is learn how to dodge the grabs and try to take advantage of any openings with aaa cause its the only thing fast enough AND if you sheild when a pikmin is being thrown at you the pikmin will go through the sheild, just something good to kmow and NEVER, EVER, EVER, FIGHT OLIMAR ON BF OR LUIGI MANSION, PERIOD

do all the other olimar players agree with these statements

 

[Kinzer]

Didn't I also hear something about White Pikmin being the easiest to kill off? (even though for somebody with God strength like Ike he just destroys anything that doesn't have the color Purple.)

 

[OmegaXF]

For Olimar.Just seriuosly abuse your range, edgeguard appropiatly,and walk-off fairs are great tools at gurading the edge.

 

[Dabuz]

no,no,no olimars range is equal if not greater than ikes, and walk off fair=fail, edgeguarding is obvious but the problem is getting of the edge obviously which is what they want to know how to do, and yes, white are the easiest to destroy

 

[Wyvern-x]

I'm pretty sure Olimar only has better range with white pikman grab.

 

[Kyas]

While I haven't played extensively in the Ike/Olimar matchup, I do secondary Ike, and have played against him with Olimar before.

Here is the one move that is basically your worst nightmare: Pikmin Throw.

Olimar's pikmin rack up damage quickly, but Ike lacks a lagless attack with a large enough hitbox to deal with them safely (i.e. without the risk of Olimar punishing him). It's a catch 22 for Ike that equals ****. Not only that, but Olimar can just throw a pikmin at you to stop your Quick Attack in its tracks, which is particularly bad if you are using it to recover (obviously, not what I would recommend doing against Olimar).

Olimar KOs Ike off of the top of FD at 87% (yes, this is with a Purple, which is simple to plan out), so don't think that your weight can protect you, either. Olimar is a very hard matchup for Ike, there's just no getting around that.

Oh, and whites do have the farthest grab range, though not by much.

 

[XACE-K]

Here is the one move that is basically your worst nightmare: Pikmin Throw.

Yeah, it can be a pain.

Olimar's pikmin rack up damage quickly

Agreed.

Not only that, but Olimar can just throw a pikmin at you to stop your Quick Attack in its tracks, which is particularly bad if you are using it to recover (obviously, not what I would recommend doing against Olimar).

By now, ALL Ikes should know not to use QD to recover.

Olimar KOs Ike off of the top of FD at 87%, so don't think that your weight can protect you, either. Olimar is a very hard matchup for Ike, there's just no getting around that.

Was that KO with a purple pikmin? If yes than that's why.

 

[Barge]

White: Best for latching, deal about 3-4% damage each hit from the latch, can deal up to 36% with one white pikmin latching, also, if you grab with a white, the grab hits (A) do 3-4% each hit.
Blue: One of the longest range grabs, has the best Bthrow, decent durability
Red: Immune to fire, pretty much average all around
Yellow: same as red, except immune to lightning
Purple: Shortest range grab and fsmash, also the strongest and most durable, has the best up and down throw of olimars grabs

 

[YagamiLight]

This seems rather adequate to do an analysis on. Thing is, I'll be working on other school related things for the next two or so hours, so if there's anything left to add, just say so.

Not that I won't update after we move to a new character, of course. In fact, if everything goes according to plan, after all the characters are finished and before we move onto match-up numbers, I'll present small batches of characters (Like 3 at a time, or something) where the analysis will be peer edited or something. I don't know exactly what I'll do, but it'll make the thing more precise and free of any errors I missed.

Then, we'll do match-up numbers. And, because nobody ever agrees on that, that's all I have planned. But let's just stick to finishing all the characters first, eh?

 

[XZA143]

I don't have much experience with good Olimars, and everything else has been said pretty much, but a few things I would like to reinforce:

-Pay close attention to the order of his pikmen. Does this particular Olimar order them around and throw accordingly? i.e. whistles to white and throws

-Whistle super armor. If hes high up in percentage (he should've been gimped already) he'll probably use it in an effort to survive a few more moments longer. This shouldn't surprise you. Bait and punish if it becomes common.

-Just because he has few weaknesses doesn't mean there not significant ones. Get him near the ledge(easier said then done I know) pressure and time your invincibility frames when hanging on the ledge correctly. Don't be surprised if he isn't always recovering from below the stage or near it. Good Olimars will DI corrrectly so they recover upwards.

 

[YagamiLight]

Phew, it's late, yet I still got the analysis up (Go me!). Feel free to discuss both it and Zero Suit Samus, if need be.

On a side note, I didn't see much about stages in the Olimar discussion, so I just kind of went with what I knew myself.

 

[MysticKenji]

On a side note, I didn't see much about stages in the Olimar discussion, so I just kind of went with what I knew myself.

I'd recommend changing Frigate to Rainbow Cruise in Recommended CP.

 

[OmegaXF]

It might be obvious but what can oli do about it? Throw Pikmin..... the only one you should worry about when he throws them off the edge is purple ones. And besides the only thing Oli has on Ike is his grab range, and Forward smashes. It is really to easy to get through that stuff.

 

[YagamiLight]

Heh, I can't believe I forgot Rainbow Cruise. Added.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have Zero Suit Samus as my secondary, so I know some stuff on her, but I'll have to give my two cents about it later since I'm kinda bushed from college.

 

[Snail]

Any Olimar with half a brain will ban Rainbow Cruise. You might want to CP Delfino Plaza or Frigate Orpheon instead.

 

[DanGR]

I know you guys have started on ZSS, but I thought I'd contribute a little.

Do the pikmin really get stronger when they bloom? When I searched, I saw posts and topics saying arguements on both sides of the discussion so I'm not to sure.

No, they don't. The flowers and buds provide no extra incentive to kill them faster than you would normally try to. Don't worry about it.

What color of Pikmin is most useful against Ike, or just most useful in general? And, secondly, which Pikmin are regarded as generally poor? And finally, what methods of sorting would an Olimar use commonly?

There aren't any pikmin in particular that are good against Ike. As Olimar, I'm always looking for a chance to throw a white and then get a grab in when you try to kill it. This works well because of how much lag the attacks you have to kill the pikmin with have. Nair should work well for the most part in killing latched pikmin. Just be aware that we're looking to grab you during that time.

DanGR I see a lot of olimars throw away purple whats up with that? (expand on it a lot please don't do something like purple is gay)

But they are gay?...seriously though, I have no idea why they throw away their pikmin against Ike. They should be throwing them at Ike. What they might be trying to do is throw them away for comboing purposes. As you may know, they have the most knockback overall. Having purples in our lineup make comboing and stringing together attacks much harder.
Also,
"well, the reason olimars get rid of purple pikmin is becasue of there short range an aggressive person like ike causes olimar to have trouble keeping the pikmin order in their mind and a purple due to its bad range for sheild grabbing and fsmashing can screw up spacing allowing ike to get a free hit"
-Dabuz

Some Olimar users just don't like to deal with those problems, so they throw them away. It's kinda noobish, because they need to learn to deal with them, but meh... that's my opinion anyways.

And I don't know what Olimar would get rid of purple pikmin, sure they are a burden but can't they score early kills on not just Ike but anybody else if done right?

At killing percentage, we don't throw away purples for any reason. That's just dumb on the Olimar's part if he does that.

do all the other olimar players agree with these statements

pretty much.

we might not have many questions, but if I had to ask how far can each of his pikmin go distance-wise on different attacks, like I know that purple pikmin are good for getting strong attacks but they don't go very far, and how yellow/white pikmin go far but they have a small damage over time when latched onto somebody, which is why I believe that they might be better for grabs or stuff like that.

here's a comprehensive guide on pikmin: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185696

I think what I'm trying to say is try and put yourself in your own shoes and the shoes of Ike when you are playing a serious match, what do you find easy to perform on Ike, what do you find hard to get around when fighting him, etc.

Hmmm, as Olimar, I just throw my pikmin to force approaches. I'm looking at your body movements and what you're doing to approach rather than looking at my pikmin throwing. I'm looking through my pheripherial vision to keep up with my pikmin count and color, so I can keep up with my throwing tactics.

Purples interrupt your approaches well, and white are very good for eating you up. They do 4% a hit after latching, whereas the others just do 2%. (It's in the link) I know that you probably know they do a lot of damage, so you want to kill them. I'll look to capitalize on whatever lag you have on your attacks to grab you. Most of our combos start with grabs.

If you're playing too defensively and patiently, I just won't ever run in for the grab. I'll just camp and wait for you to come. On defense, it's not hard at all to defend against your attacks. All of them can be shieldgrabbed or pivotgrabbed easily. I really don't know what you're expected to do to approach. Sorry :/

Basically, I run away, throw pikmin, grab your pikmin killing attacks, or defend against your approaches.

One of your main ways to get hits should be to look at Olimar and watch for him to run in for a grab. Running grabs have shorter range than standing grabs or pivotgrabs. That's your best chances to strike.

It's a really hard matchup for Ike, so unless you've got the matchup experience, or you're just 10x better than your opponent, don't expect to win.

Well, there's my two cents. d(^_^)b

 

[Dabuz]

for zss remember that her goal at 100% and up is to land side b, upairs, bairs as basic attacks and dsmash, dsmash to bair, and neutral b to side b combos and she destroys you in the air but you normally outrange and can beat her on the ground easily, all her good ground moves are laggy except for dtilt with is short range grab which if missed is EASILY punished so your goal is to never get into the air

 

[XACE-K]

So we're talking about Sexy Samus now? OK, I do know some stuff but not a lot but whatever.

- Watch out for d-smash -> b-air. If you get knocked off stage and she hit's you with d-smash when you're recovering, b-air could stage spike you.

- If they need to recover from a long distance, Zamus will down-B -> whatever tether she uses. Punish them when they get closer to the stage.

I can't think of anything else right now. What are good CPs against her? I just choose whatever.

 

[HeroMystic]

I can't think of anything else right now. What are good CPs against her? I just choose whatever.

Any stage that lacks platforms. Mainly Final Destination and Smashville. Out of the counterpicks, Corneria is a good Ike stage vs Zero Suit Samus.

The reason why platforms are bad for this matchup is because Sexy Samus has huge advantages fighting below Ike. Up-B and Up-Smash are ideal to use against Ike. She can also jump up and do a B-air if you have high % and go in for a kill. For a straightforward stage like FD, it's harder for her to get a kill in with her quick attacks and have to result to Side-B.

That's it for now. I'll do the full match-up on my part later.

 

[Guilhe]

Excellent guide for the Olimar matchup! Thanks people form the Olimar boards, that wouldn’t be possible without you.

 

[YagamiLight]

Excellent guide for the Olimar matchup! Thanks people form the Olimar boards, that wouldn’t be possible without you.

I quite agree. The large influx of Olimar mains was very helpful.

I'll try to update the guide with some more tidbits from DanGR's information soon.

 

[MysticKenji]

- If they need to recover from a long distance, Zamus will down-B -> whatever tether she uses. Punish them when they get closer to the stage.

If you see Zamus pull out Down+B, spike her, she doesn't have a hitbox above her.