If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[Oracle]

Obviously we are going to keep someone like falco's weaknesses because it's freaking falco. Not some yellow rodent with barely one approach move. A character with the best shield pressure in the game and an incredibly fast projectile that forces pretty much everyone to approach, rather than making him approach. In fact, if falco wasn't limited by poor recovery and easy combo syndrome, he would be leagues ahead of every other character.

Pichu sucks. If he kept his weaknesses, he would still suck. That's the whole reason that he sucks. You can't just overbalance him in one aspect to try and make up for the weaknesses, which is what you're proposing. Moderation is always the answer.

Low tiers' weaknesses don't make them "unique". The fact that they are a different character makes them unique. They'll retain this even when we fix their weaknesses and give them certain buffs.

 

[Stevo]

If falco did 1 damage to himself everytime he used his blaster, people would still use it almost as much as they do now im sure. The fact is, Pichu is just not good enough to balance out how light he is and such.

what do you consider to be his weaknesses? I think his weaknesses are:
-He is crazy light
-He has the worst tech roll EVER
-has little range

Why not increase his weight slightly, imporve his tech roll a little, and increase his speed.

combined with increasing the damage return on attacks that damage yourself, I feel this would make Pichu pretty decent, whiel still keeping his feel of being a light little *****.

We could give him slightly larger grab range too, as grab range combined with run speed, combined with good throws, would make Pichu VERY decent in my opinion. Most high tiers would be nothing without their grabs.

EDIT: Honestly, his techroll being ****ty sometimes throws people off lol, maybe we should just make it end quicker lol.



EDIT2:

So I played some Pichu today for a couple hours straight, and I dont think Pichu needs any more range. It is difficult vs marth and some other characters when they are trying to out space you, but I feel that with more run speed (which matches with Pichu's Im quick but light flavour) Pichu wouldnt have much trouble at all. His forward smash is already really powerful, but it has little range and can be smash DI'd out of. For this reason, rather than increasing its strength, I would suggest that that move be increased in size, simply because its already strong, and that would make it a little harder to smash DI out of. Therefore, here are my revised suggestions.

-increase damage on all attacks that have recoil.
-Increase run speed to a little slower than fox
-Increase his weight to about a .60 from.55
-Increase hitbox size of forward smash
-Increase the speed at which Forward-b charges up
-Modify his tech roll somehow to make it a little less bad
-Maybe increase the knockback of d-smash



EDIT3: My Opinion on damage increases

Old Down-b
4 hits @ 4 damage each = 15 damage (Stale moves)
strong hit near Pichu @ 11 damage
Pichu takes 3 damage

New Down-b
3 hits @ 4 damage each + 1 hit @ 8 damage (+increase in knockback) = 19-20 dmg
strong hit near Pichu @ 15 damage
Pichu takes 2 recoil damage

Old Forward Air
4 hits @ 2 damage each = 7 damage (Stale moves)
Pichu takes 4 hits @ 1 damage each = 4 recoil

New Forward Air
4 hits @ 4 damage each = 14-15 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 4 hits @ 1 damage each = 4 recoil

Old B move
In Air
1 hit @ 10 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Grounded
1 hit @ 7 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New B move
In air
1 hit @ 12 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Grounded
1 hit @ 10 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward Smash
5 hits @ 2 damage each + 1 hit @ 5 damage = 14 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 2 recoil damage

New Forward Smash
5 hits @ 9 damage total + 1hit @ 6 damage = 15 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Increase hit boxes slightly

Old Up-b
1st part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
2nd part
Pichu takes 3 recoil damage

New up-b
1st part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
2nd part
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward-b
1 hit @ 7 damage (uncharged)
1 hit @ 39 damage(fully charged)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Forward-b
1 hit @ 10 damage (uncharged)
1 hit @ 42 damage(fully charged)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage
Charges up quicker

Old Down Air
1 hit @ 12 damage
1 hit @ 4 damage (landing animation) (ends up being 3 damage if you hit with 1st hit)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Down Air
1 hit @ 15 damage
1 hit @ 5 damage (landing animation)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Grab attack
1 hit @ 3 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New Grab attack
1 hit @ 5 damage
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

Old Forward throw
5 hits @ 2 damage each = 9 damage (stale moves)
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

New forward throw
4 hits @ 2 damage each + 1 hit at 5 damage = about 12 with stale moves
Pichu takes 1 recoil damage

 

[LoganW]

KEEP MELEE HOW IT IS AND GO MOD BRAWL

 

[Steelia]

KEEP MELEE HOW IT IS AND GO MOD BRAWL

But what if modding Melee helps promote it, so people who didn't like it before will return to it and give it a shot now?

 

[Stevo]

@logan: no thx



lemme know what you guys think, then I can put up our final decision on first post and we can move onto kirby.

I really think with increased speed and damage output, Pichu could be a contender.

*eye of the tiger music*

 

[metaXzero]

KEEP MELEE HOW IT IS AND GO MOD BRAWL

Does someone have to report you or something? You already stated your opinion. Now you are just spamming.

What part of "your Melee disc and the ones used in most tourneys won't change" can't you get through your head?

+1 to Pichu changes.

 

[Cosmo!]

to be honest, the only legit melee mod that we could use in tournaments would be an official one (like if they released it on Wii, based of off PAL with a couple more fixes)

 

[metaXzero]

to be honest, the only legit melee mod that we could use in tournaments would be an official one (like if they released it on Wii, based of off PAL with a couple more fixes)

Brawl+ and Balanced Brawl have tourneys. Nothing is stopping a Melee mod from being used for it's own tourneys.

....Well nothing besides how much harder it is to hack Melee and run codes in an easily accessible way like the Brawl mods.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

lemme know what you guys think, then I can put up our final decision on first post and we can move onto kirby.

I really think with increased speed and damage output, Pichu could be a contender.

*eye of the tiger music*

Everything sounds pretty legit. So that's one down...

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi: ☐
Bowser: ☐
Mewtwo: ☐
Kirby: ☐
Pichu:

... Five more to go, starting with Kirby.

Negatives

• Horrible, horrible air speed (Tied with Ganondorf? The ***?)
• Really slow aerials
• Poor combo ability
• Final Cutter is shorter than in SSB and has sh*t horizontal range
• Hammer is utterly useless, being very weak and easily punished
• Slow, weak, short-ranged attacks
• Overall priority sucks majorly

Positives

• Decent recovery
• Quick dodges
• Good shield
• Lowest crouch in the game
• Kirbycides <3

Why was Kirby nerfed so badly? Again, if I'm missing some things, chime in. Needless to say, his negatives massively outweighs it's positives. So how do we even things out?

• Same air speed as Jiggs, or a tad slower than Jiggs.
• Make the hammer more like it is in SSBB, i.e. no sweetspot (strong wherever it hits)
• Stronger smash attacks
• Faster Final Cutter with sufficent horizontal range
• SSB-esque priority and speed

Can't think of any specifics at the moment. Go ahead and start listing ways to improve Kirby. Mewtwo is next after this.

 

[Archangel]

WHY would we remove Marth's CG on spacies? As I said, they have the tools to deal with Marth's grab ****. But characters like Bowser DON'T have the tools to beat Sheik's near 0-death CG.

Make them able to escape chains? Wouldn't that accomplish the same thing as making Sheik's D-throw unable to CG them?

Give them the means to fight back? As I said, buffing them to be able to deal with Sheik's D-throw (meaning, giving them the tools to avoid her grabs) could make them broken against other characters. We could fix one primary match-up while breaking several others. Meanwhile, Sheik losing her CG would not give her a bunch of 10:90 disadvantages since she has more then enough tools to fall back on.

If it's about not alienating Sheik mains, do they really love having such an unbalancing factor?

YES!!!!!

I mean giving up the in order to make it impossible to Chain grab any character with Sheik we would have to take away her Dthrow entirely. and that is 1 of her best moves outside of CG's.

I mean sheik has a problem surviving now. She's one of the least used character in the current game. If we take away her Dthrow we might as well take away her Ftilt, UpTilt, and Fair as well. And make it so she can't use her Vanish to camp the edge....that would fix all of her bad match ups right......?

Does someone have to report you or something? You already stated your opinion. Now you are just spamming.

What part of "your Melee disc and the ones used in most tourneys won't change" can't you get through your head?

+1 to Pichu changes.

He has got his autopost stuck in repeat.

 

[metaXzero]

Make sure to make it so Kirby keeps his remaining jumps after Final Cutter and throws (when hit out of them). And fix his throws so that F-throw and B-throw can't be broken out of and U-throw can KO better.

Oh, and fix the hitboxes on his Smashes and Side-B. F and U-Smash have ******** KO sweetspots and who the **** tips a hammer for massive damage?

EDIT: Spam_Arrows

PAL Sheik can't CG, yet she's still a top character in that metagame >_>

And out of the other moves of Sheik, the only one I'd say could use a nerf is F-air (less knockback so it doesn't KO so easily), but that's just me.

 

[Stevo]

From first post

Kirby
increase aerial control (not like jiggly but a little bit)
make neutral air suck less?
Increase knockback of smashes slightly (especially f-smash)
Increase Kirby's speed a lot when using run attack (kinda like how sheik speeds up, but less)
let him combo from one of his throws (back throw pop straight up maybe?)


Kirby has a GREAT grab, he just can't do anything with it. So I would say, making his backthrow pop them straight up, or having a quicker recovery from down throw would be needed. His run attack needs to be buffed somehow... its almost as bad as luigi's.

If he has better air mobility his up-b does not need to be changed, since he can recover without it even better, and would only need it for vertical recovery anyway.

and yeah, remove the ability to escape his grabs once he has started them.

Make his smashes, up air, and Hammer better/easier to hit with. (better sweet spots etc)

 

[metaXzero]

Made a few edits to my last post if anyone cares.

Oh yeah! Just remembered. A few characters can punish Kirby out of his D-throw (Luigi, Jiggs, maybe Peach). Yeah, that should be fixed.

 

[Archangel]

EDIT: Spam_Arrows

PAL Sheik can't CG, yet she's still a top character in that metagame >_>

And out of the other moves of Sheik, the only one I'd say could use a nerf is F-air (less knockback so it doesn't KO so easily), but that's just me.[/QUOTE]

I know nothing about PAL version. I'm glad it's not in our version otherwise EC would have lost the Genesis Crew battle.

I honestly don't think the Dthrow should be completely removed. Considering we are Buffing low tiers the High/Top tiers will need everything intact. The Idea of this IMO is to Balance the game not Flip the Tiers upside down so that Bottom is top and top is Bottom.


oh and on a side note I was wondering why you where lobbying for so much to be done for Kirby...then I noticed your Main LOL.

 

[metaXzero]

Spam_Arrows. As I said, in PAL, Sheik is still Top tier even without her CG. It's removal will not flip-flop tiers. Buffing those who are effected to the point where they can deal with it like spacies can deal with Marth's however could do that very flip-flopping you don't want.

 

[Archangel]

Spam_Arrows. As I said, in PAL, Sheik is still Top tier even without her CG. It's removal will not flip-flop tiers. Buffing those who are effected to the point where they can deal with it like spacies can deal with Marth's however could do that very flip-flopping you don't want.

It sounds to me like whoever beat you with sheik is the same guy who beat me with IC's. You clearly have it out for sheik lol. I can understand that. However you are missing what I'm saying. Giving Sheik a Brawl Fair and a Pal Dthrow is enough to remove her from Top to High considering that in Melee+ Buffs will surely flip the Tier list upside down especially if we start screwing Sheik. Because Editing Marths' Range will come next, Then Falco's Lasers, then Fox's Shine, then Peach's Dsmash, then Falcon's Knee....etc. I mean outside of sheik there are some nasty 0-deaths I didn't even mention. For example Falcon vs Link....it's pretty gay. The way I see it It's not possible to change ever match-up to 50-50.

 

[Stevo]

At this point I would like to concentrate on fixing the bottom tier and up.

the characters that can be chain thrown by sheik are

Bowser, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Ness, Sheik, Young Link, Link, Pichu, Pikachu, Mr. Game and Watch and Roy.

all but herself could potentially get buffed (Im not sure on ganon) and only a few matchups it actually matters.


A quote from a well known sheik player
"
Drephen
12-24-2006, 07:14 PM
thing is only like 3-4 of those characters are seriously affected by shiek's chain grab

like you can only chaingrab GW and ness for certain percents

i think that only sheik, pikachu, gannon, and link are the ones that get screwed from getting chaingrabbed

i could be wrong though, im not m2k lol"

I would add Bowser to the list of people who get ***** by it, but the point still stands.

 

[Rat]

Instead of balancing melee, I would mess with it. Mostly by adding a ton of ridiculous cancels.

Like Captain Falcon could cancel his tech roll with overB.
Falcon Punch would be Jump and DJ cancelable and would renew CFs double jump.
Bowser could cancel all hit lag with Fire and downB.
ICs could cancel their Air Dodge with a double jump.
Link (and Young Links) could Z-cancel (basically whatever happens when you press Z) Item throw.


Also other ridiculous things like.
Luigi's fireball you could smash input and give him a ton of momentum in that direction.
PSI magnet would pull all opponents towards you.

I would call it: Super Broken Brothers.

 

[Archangel]

Instead of balancing melee, I would mess with it. Mostly by adding a ton of ridiculous cancels.

Like Captain Falcon could cancel his tech roll with overB.
Falcon Punch would be Jump and DJ cancelable and would renew CFs double jump.
Bowser could cancel all hit lag with Fire and downB.
ICs could cancel their Air Dodge with a double jump.
Link (and Young Links) could Z-cancel (basically whatever happens when you press Z) Item throw.


Also other ridiculous things like.
Luigi's fireball you could smash input and give him a ton of momentum in that direction.
PSI magnet would pull all opponents towards you.

I would call it: Super Broken Brothers.

Even though it's probably just sarcasm I was thinking maybe we should do something like that for kicks. All you'd really have to do to Break it is add a Cancel option to everything. Even B moves. You could spam SideB's with Falcon and not get punished at all, You could Shoot out Missiles forever with samus, You could Cancel your rest with Jiggs so you never went to sleep should you miss, Pikachu could Cancel his Zip forever....etc. It would be funny **** actually I wouldn't mind seeing it but it wouldn't be played seriously.

 

[metaXzero]

@Spam arrows

This isn't about me getting beat by a Sheik. It's about quite a few characters getting ***** by one part of an already good character. We have 2 choices. 1. Buff the affected so that they can deal with it 2. change their physics so they can't be CGed. or 3. Remove the CG (basically, change the D-throw's angle to something else (not neccessarily PAL angle).

#1 has the potential of overbuffing characters to where they can deal with Sheik, but now they are ****** other characters. #2 Could be fine if those character's mains don't mind their characters being floatier or falling faster (I'm pretty sure they will mind). And #3 has been shown that Sheik will still be a good character with advantages over those previously affected. This is why I favor #3 over 1 & 2.

As I said, the F-air I just don't like. It probably doesn't need a nerf vs. other characters getting buffed. Like Wobbling.

The rest of the Top Tier I say leave alone. I don't know HOW to change Marth while leaving him as we know him. Unlike Sheik and her D-throw, nerfing Marth's range will more then likely screw him over. Why would we change the other 4 things you listed though? It's kinda odd putting them on the same level of Sheik's D-throw.

I'm not saying shoot for 50-50 across. As I said, Sheik will more then likely still have the advantage due to the rest of her character.

@Stevo

Thanks for the list. I'm pretty sure Pichu and Bowser fall under there (the screwed over group) as well (WTF Sheik? A mirror would just balance itself out).

Also, Super Broken Bros. Melee would be epic. Someone needs to make a "Project Smash Attack" for Melee > : (

 

[Archangel]

This isn't about me getting beat by a Sheik. It's about quite a few characters getting ***** by one part of an already good character. We have 2 choices. 1. Buff the affected so that they can deal with it 2. change their physics so they can't be CGed. or 3. Remove the CG (basically, change the D-throw's angle to something else (not neccessarily PAL angle).

#1 has the potential of overbuffing characters to where they can deal with Sheik, but now they are ****** other characters. #2 Could be fine if those character's mains don't mind their characters being floatier or falling faster (I'm pretty sure they will mind). And #3 has been shown that Sheik will still be a good character with advantages over those previously affected. This is why I favor #3 over 1 & 2.

As I said, the F-air I just don't like. It probably doesn't need a nerf vs. other characters getting buffed. Like Wobbling.

The rest of the Top Tier I say leave alone. I don't know HOW to change Marth while leaving him as we know him. Unlike Sheik and her D-throw, nerfing Marth's range will more then likely screw him over. Why would we change the other 4 things you listed though? It's kinda odd putting them on the same level of Sheik's D-throw.

I'm not saying shoot for 50-50 across. As I said, Sheik will more then likely still have the advantage due to the rest of her character.

You aren't getting what I'm trying to say at all it seems. I mean I said some wacky stuff about IC's and They do still **** a good amount of characters with or without wobbling. I'm saying that if we start editing characters based on there advantages then the end result will be an Upside down game. I mean...you've already moved on to Removing Sheiks Fair to a Brawl type Fair(Brawl fair is useless btw). Once all characters Middle on down are buffed Sheik will replace them inevitably as bottom Because she can't CG them nor can she kill them.....but lets say this happens and you get what you want. Then someone else comes along and says hey if we can Nerf Sheik. Why not make it so Fox knocks everyone down like he does falco for example. Then someone else will say does Falco have to have a Dair like he does....in fact people are already saying Marth's and Falco's as well as others should be changed. Eventually Marth's CG will be made ineffective against Species, and Peach will have a Samus like Dsmash instead as well as less floating time...etc. All I'm trying to say is if we start chopping at the top and high tier characters they will eventually fall over. Meanwhile we'll be building up and stacking up the bottom/low tiers. The in result will be an upside down tier list.

With that said I think the best option will just be to angle the Dthrow differently. I mean if you look at Marth's Dthrow and Bthrow they are basically the same but have different angles and effects so it can be done. Taking away the Fair is like Taking away the "Tipper of Lover"(<3 DJ) form Marth. It could help but...it's kind a bad direction to start taking right off the bat. I mean there is already alot of negative on lookers at the idea of completely changing up the game form an old imbalanced game to a new imbalanced game. The worse thing for this project IMO is to make them absolutely 100%!......Right....

 

[Stevo]

At this point I would like to concentrate on fixing the bottom tier and up.

I would have to side with Spam Arrows on this issue at the moment, but lets work on Kirby now please.

 

[metaXzero]

@Spam_Arrows

Basically, you are arguing a slippery slope of nerfing all the Top tiers if we just alter Sheik's D-throw. My problem with that is how do you equate Sheik's D-throw to Fox's shine, Peach's D-Smash, Falco's lasers, and Falcon's F-air? I can't see how they are comparable?

I NEVER said nerf her F-air until it can't KO like Brawl Sheik. That's horrible. I said MAYBE nerf it so it kills a bit later (considering how easily D-throw and F-tilt set up a F-air on many of the cast). And even then, I said she might not need that nerf anyway (the lower character buffs may make up be able to compensate).

But as Stevo said, let's focus on Kirby for now. We'll come back to this later.

Actually one more thing. No one suggested taking away Falco and Marth's spikes. People suggested replacing all Meteors (like Mario's or DK's) into spikes. It's only fair.

 

[Steelia]

Instead of balancing melee, I would mess with it. Mostly by adding a ton of ridiculous cancels.

~

I would call it: Super Broken Brothers.

You mean, like how a lot of the characters are extremely beefed with the SUPER codes for Action Replay?

~As for Kirby, I say, make a similar aerial side-B like in Brawl. I loved that move, especially after exiting a down-B; didn't leave you as vulnerable once you canceled from it manually. But, if not, then what about just making his aerial side-B a 1-hitter instead of a combo-er? It would be a STRONG hitter... have to be. Definitely something way more useful than the original.

Also, maybe, maybe shortening the length of his dashing-A? I like fireballs as much as the next person, but jeez... I can't tell you how many times I've used it, and on accident would fall off the stage (or on certain stages, run off the stage) with that move on accident.

Oh, and seriously beef up the aerial-A. That thing's just downright pathetic in ANY situation. More knockback, likely, and a LOT less lag.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I NEVER said nerf her F-air until it can't KO like Brawl Sheik. That's horrible. I said MAYBE nerf it so it kills a bit later (considering how easily D-throw and F-tilt set up a F-air on many of the cast). And even then, I said she might not need that nerf anyway (the lower character buffs may make up be able to compensate).

Nerfing her Fair, I think, would be entirely unnecessary if you're removing her grab combos.

Fox and Falco's laser, shine, mobility, and SHFFL make a good portion of the cast nonviable too, but I can't say that without being screamed at by low tier purists. Evidently, lasering and running away and punishing their abysmal approaches doesn't make Bowser and his friends lose badly. It's still "winnable, just really hard", whatever that means.

 

[N64]

I'd say sheik's chainthrow is comparable to falco's laser for pikachu. Chainthrow is a little more brutal, but sheik has to actually approach pikachu or allow him to approach to get the grab, falco can laser all dai pretty much.

 

[Oracle]

My point exactly. We have to balance the top tiers at least a little so we don't end up overbalancing the low tiers so that they can deal with one thing, but end up being ridiculously broken.

@Stevo- That's a good list, but he still has poor approaches and abysmal range. It doesn't matter that his forward smash has a lot of power if he can't get his opponent in a situation where he can use it. We could put some things like a disjointed electric hitbox in front of his fair like a drill or something and make it start a little faster. Then, it would actually be good enough to warrant it hurting himself.

I'm not exactly sure what you were arguing before because it has apparently changed, but w/e. We're on the same page now XD

@N64: that accurately describes falco vs. low tier as a whole. I'm not sure what we could do to nerf falco's laser. I was thinking either make it really weak or increase the stale move growth by a lot so if he spams it a lot then the damage will go down to 1 or zero (if that's even possible)

 

[Lovage]

don't change melee at all that would be dumb

 

[Scidadle]

don't change melee at all that would be dumb

words of wisdom.

I agree

Cept mewtwo ;3

 

[metaXzero]

don't change melee at all that would be dumb

What's dumb is assuming that this will replace standard Melee.

 

[Steelia]

What's dumb is assuming that this will replace standard Melee.

Precisely.
All this thread's for is for throwing out ideas. What ifs, what ifs, what ifs. Doesn't hurt to tinker with the game, because hey. The game's great. But who wouldn't want to mess with a few things when given the opportunity? As noted, it's not like this would replace "standard" Melee play, as its great as it is (unlike another game that NEEDS to have a complete surgical face-lift just to be enjoyable).

 

[LoganW]

don't change melee at all that would be dumb

I've been saying this but they won't budge. It's not worth it
It's clear that a of of people don't want this so don't say we would
but you get plus points for not liking brawl

 

[Archangel]

@Spam_Arrows

Basically, you are arguing a slippery slope of nerfing all the Top tiers if we just alter Sheik's D-throw. My problem with that is how do you equate Sheik's D-throw to Fox's shine, Peach's D-Smash, Falco's lasers, and Falcon's F-air? I can't see how they are comparable?

I NEVER said nerf her F-air until it can't KO like Brawl Sheik. That's horrible. I said MAYBE nerf it so it kills a bit later (considering how easily D-throw and F-tilt set up a F-air on many of the cast). And even then, I said she might not need that nerf anyway (the lower character buffs may make up be able to compensate).

But as Stevo said, let's focus on Kirby for now. We'll come back to this later.

Actually one more thing. No one suggested taking away Falco and Marth's spikes. People suggested replacing all Meteors (like Mario's or DK's) into spikes. It's only fair.

Well Stevo agrees with me.

Nerfing her Fair, I think, would be entirely unnecessary if you're removing her grab combos.

Fox and Falco's laser, shine, mobility, and SHFFL make a good portion of the cast nonviable too, but I can't say that without being screamed at by low tier purists. Evidently, lasering and running away and punishing their abysmal approaches doesn't make Bowser and his friends lose badly. It's still "winnable, just really hard", whatever that means.

The only good kirby player I have seen in my life so far Agrees with me

I'd say sheik's chainthrow is comparable to falco's laser for pikachu. Chainthrow is a little more brutal, but sheik has to actually approach pikachu or allow him to approach to get the grab, falco can laser all dai pretty much.

The system that the smash bros series was started on agrees with me.

My point exactly. We have to balance the top tiers at least a little so we don't end up overbalancing the low tiers so that they can deal with one thing, but end up being ridiculously broken.

an angel with 1 wing agrees with me

@N64: that accurately describes falco vs. low tier as a whole. I'm not sure what we could do to nerf falco's laser. I was thinking either make it really weak or increase the stale move growth by a lot so if he spams it a lot then the damage will go down to 1 or zero (if that's even possible)

I offer this as proof of what I said earlier. Talk of Nerfing High/Top tiers is going to lead to disaster in the long run.

my logic is undeniable

don't change melee at all that would be dumb

at a meeting of Sanyo executives one man said the same thing when the Idea of HD TV's was brought to them....I'm glad they ignored him

The way it looks this project will proceed so...If you don't like don't make the same post everyone else that doesn't like the idea does. Be creative at least. No more..."Don't change melee" Don't touch Perfection Bull****"....please?

*Deep breath!

NOW about Kirby - He needs speed. Momentum and aerial movement. His Fair is stupid his bair would be useful if he was awarded better aerial movement. His Uair is to slow to be useful the way Falcon, Gannon, Mario, Doc, and Luigi's are.(Considering it's basically the same move) His dash attack could be useful if it didn't lag as long and was more like Fox/Falco's, Sheik, Marth...etc. He needs better grabs(Remove SD/double KO grab?)....he needs a faster and more powerful Upsmash, Fsmash and a much different useful Dsmash....should I stop there?

 

[KirbyKaze]

The only good kirby player I have seen in my life so far Agrees with me

If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I don't play Kirby.

NOW about Kirby - He needs speed. Momentum and aerial movement. His Fair is stupid his bair would be useful if he was awarded better aerial movement. His Uair is to slow to be useful the way Falcon, Gannon, Mario, Doc, and Luigi's are.(Considering it's basically the same move) His dash attack could be useful if it didn't lag as long and was more like Fox/Falco's, Sheik, Marth...etc. He needs better grabs(Remove SD/double KO grab?)....he needs a faster and more powerful Upsmash, Fsmash and a much different useful Dsmash....should I stop there?

Kirby's downfall is that he was seemingly made to be an oxymoron.

He has 5 jumps and a great Bair, but his jumps are all small and he has no aerial mobility. He has good tilts, but poor dashing speed and unimpressive overall ground movement (his wavedash, mercifully, is fast). He has good grab range, but no productive throws and a bad dash dance to dash dance grab with.

In addition to this, his kill power is poor and his combo game is relatively non-existent beyond U-tilt --> move and Bair --> Bair offstage. You can sometimes get creative at high percent with the first two hits of Fair --> Uair or something on floaties but those are all situational and DI dependent. Kirby's bread and butter game is very weak and limited.

He also can't catch Fox if Fox decides not to be caught on a bunch of levels (neutrals included), which is a bit of a problem. Kirby vs Sheik largely works the same way, only on different levels and overall fewer levels.

 

[Oracle]

Why would nerfing falco be a disaster? His lazers are ridiculous

 

[KirbyKaze]

Falco's gun needs to explode in his hands if you use it too much.

(Not serious)

 

[Archangel]

If you knew anything about me, you'd know that I don't play Kirby.

I beg to differ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVGKYENijdE

But seriously I got you confused with KrazyKirbyKid(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhWdJJx6wlc)

SORRY!

Kirby's downfall is that he was seemingly made to be an oxymoron.

He has 5 jumps and a great Bair, but his jumps are all small and he has no aerial mobility. He has good tilts, but poor dashing speed and unimpressive overall ground movement (his wavedash, mercifully, is fast). He has good grab range, but no productive throws and a bad dash dance to dash dance grab with.

In addition to this, his kill power is poor and his combo game is relatively non-existent beyond U-tilt --> move and Bair --> Bair offstage. You can sometimes get creative at high percent with the first two hits of Fair --> Uair or something on floaties but those are all situational and DI dependent. Kirby's bread and butter game is very weak and limited.

He also can't catch Fox if Fox decides not to be caught on a bunch of levels (neutrals included), which is a bit of a problem. Kirby vs Sheik largely works the same way, only on different levels and overall fewer levels.

It sounds like we are kinda in agreement...It seems Kirby needs more than small tweaks. He should be rebuilt from in all of his mechanics.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

All you need to do to balance melee is make it so all character select boxes pick Falcon.

You're welcome.

 

[Archangel]

Why would nerfing falco be a disaster? His lazers are ridiculous

lead to disaster

I'm wasn't saying it was a disaster or even a bad Idea. The problem is when it gets to the point where Falco has no Laser. His Shine has Zero hitstun an bair has the knockback of Sheiks Dair

But seriously to see understand what I was getting at you would have to read the entire conversation between me and him and then see how what you said about Falco was what I saw coming around the corner basically.

I thought it was agreed initially that no top/High tiers were to be ****ed with? I think we should do are very best to give everyone at the very least a 60/40 match up with everyone on the game. If we fail to do that then and only then. Should we take a look at High/Top tiers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

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