If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[LLDL]

You know what I would do? I would insert some brawl character models, and start to play. Then people will see how much sexier melee gameplay is than

 

[2.72]

Steelia: I agree about removing the ending lag, but I'd rather find a way to make multi-hitters work than remove them. This might not be possible, but I want to give it a shot first.

Given how well Taj uses Disable, I want it to stay in but be buffed. I'm not so sure about Confusion; it's never seemed remotely useful to me and I'm not sure how to make it good without risking completely breaking it with confusion->confusion chains.

One of the things that I like about Mewtwo's current design is that he is very reliant on reads. This seems appropriate for a psychic pokemon. Let's emphasize that aspect when buffing him: no fast moves that are difficult to punish a la fox's nair, but instead focus on getting grabs, predicting moves and punishing, and maybe tech chasing.

To this end, I'd like to buff his mobility. A few random ideas, not all of which should be implemented:
1) Increase dash speed
2) Let him hover like peach
3) Slightly buff dash dance and/or wavedash (these are already good).
4) Make him not become helpless after a teleport
5) Decrease the lag when teleporting onto the ground (this is almost an ease of use change)

 

[The Immortal Sir NZ]

Steelia: I agree about removing the ending lag, but I'd rather find a way to make multi-hitters work than remove them. This might not be possible, but I want to give it a shot first.

Make so you can't DI out of the multi hit jab and he's gonna be okay.

Given how well Taj uses Disable, I want it to stay in but be buffed. I'm not so sure about Confusion; it's never seemed remotely useful to me and I'm not sure how to make it good without risking completely breaking it with confusion->confusion chains.

Disable could use a teensy bit more range imo. As for Confusion, when you get them in the flippy part, have it so they are a little bit farther from M2 so they can't bair him while he's still in stun. Make so It actually reflects stuff, and maybe buff the damage 5% to compensate for long end lag?

One of the things that I like about Mewtwo's current design is that he is very reliant on reads. This seems appropriate for a psychic pokemon. Let's emphasize that aspect when buffing him: no fast moves that are difficult to punish a la fox's nair, but instead focus on getting grabs, predicting moves and punishing, and maybe tech chasing.

Mewtwo could use a better approach though, and if we want to keep his s***** approach, his throws and punishment game had better get a huge buff

To this end, I'd like to buff his mobility. A few random ideas, not all of which should be implemented:
1) Increase dash speed Mewtwo wavedashes anyways
2) Let him hover like peach And do what? try and dair them lol?
3) Slightly buff dash dance and/or wavedash (these are already good).
4) Make him not become helpless after a teleport Brawl + hackers already had a huge argument over this, its not worth it, although it would make a beastly mindgame option for approaching
5) Decrease the lag when teleporting onto the ground (this is almost an ease of use change)

My do-to list would be something like this:
1)give him at least Samus's weight.
2)Make his tail attacks disjointed.
3)Give all smash attacks a small knockback boost (F-smash has same damage output as Falcon's and DK's, but has much less knockback)
4)Give Bair more base knockback so it actually moves people before 100%
5)Make Dair a stronger spike/meteor
6)Reduce end lag upon firing a shadowball.

Personally, 1 and 2 seem like the most impotant to me.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Gonna start listing a few things for Mewtwo.

Attributes

• Weight: Despite being such a big target in Melee, Mewtwo is surprisingly light (10th lightest, 17th heaviest). Compared to other big targets, i.e. Bowser (117), Donkey Kong (114), Samus (110), and Ganondorf (109) and in contrast to his Pokémon counterparts' weight (122), Mewtwo's weight in Melee (88) is far too light (and stupid). A appropriate weight would be around 115-113.
  
• Running speed: Believe it or not, but Kirby and Mewtwo have the same running speed. Watch the Pokemon movie and see how fast this ****er moves. His running speed should be on par with Dr.Mario or Falco.

Grabs n Throws

• Grabbing Range: Kirby and Zelda grab range is better than his own; should at least be on par with Kirby's grabbing range.
  
• Dash Grab: Currently takes 9 frames, should be either 7 or 8 frames.
  
• F-throw: Make it so all fireballs connect, like Screw Attack (Don't know how--perhaps remove the knockback it deals until the last fireball). Increase knockback and damage dealt.

Specials

• Disable: Range should be better and lag time should be slightly better.
• Confusion: Tumble inflicted should be a tad longer and lag time should be better (should also send opponent a bit away from him). Reflected projectiles should actually damage the opponent.

Smash Attacks

• F-Smash: Should be as strong as Ness's forward smashes. Reduce the ending lag a bit.
• U-Smash: Make it stronger and reduce the lag.
• D-Smash: Reduce the lag (Is it true that you can l-cancel this? I heard people say you could, but I never actually seen anyone do it. =/)

Aerials

• Nair: Priority, priority, priority. Make the hitbox a bit bigger.
• Fair: Bigger hitbox and a bit faster
• Bair: Increase knockback and damage (Make it so it deals 12%)
• Dair: Much Faster and bigger hitbox

Tilts

• All tilts should disjointed, first ad foremost
• U-Tilt: Stronger
• F-Tilt: Stronger

EDIT: Wow, I'm slow. =(

 

[Oracle]

To make all of the f throw shadow balls hit you would make it put them in lots of stun and remove the ability to DI each ball, but you can still DI the throw.

The tilts shouldn't be disjointed, but they need to be faster and there are a lot of hitbox issues (like on up tilt, there are completely randomly placed hitboxes on the move that are good, like the initial hit, but some are awful. U tilt needs to have the strong hitbox all of the way through and end faster. F tilt has absolutely no knockback when you space it, so we need to stretch out the strong hitbox all the way out there. D tilt should have a tad more initial knockback and less growth so you can combo better with it.

Fair's only realy problem is the range. Other than that, it's an amazing move for combos and killing. Is the range of bowser's koopa klaw hitbox too much? It needs to have some sort of disjointed shadow slashmark thing like bowser's claw does.

All other changes are great.

 

[Archangel]

@Spam_arrows

You misunderstood. I meant remove all of one or the other. Everyone's downward sending attacks should either spike or meteor. We shouldn't have crap where Marth and Falco get a spike while Mario and DK get a s****y meteor.

My apologies. My sentence sucked.

my bad

Oh...well we agree then. All Spikes is the best option imo

Btw Good Idea's for mew2.

What If we took away his knockback and lag time from his Shadowball? So he doesn't fly off when he does it lol. I like the Idea for his Reversal becoming an actual Reflector. Or you could make something weird happen like the Projectile appears behind the sender That would insane. However it would probably make Mew2 near broken....I'm not sure what else to say. The Mew2 Mains kinda wrote a book already on stuff to do LOL.

 

[Banks]

just give it brawl physics and call it melee-

 

[Archangel]

just give it balanced physics and call it melee+

Fixed it, No need to thank me.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Can we like, get this thread closed by popular vote?

 

[Archangel]

Can we like, get this thread closed by popular vote?

a George Bush Kinda Popular Vote.

 

[Oracle]

As awesome as this thread is, Stabbed is right. This would kind of be better off in a social group where we could invite specific members rather than letting anyone post and argue with the random MAYLAY IZ PURFECT LEEVE IT ALOOOOOONE people.

 

[Steelia]

As awesome as this thread is, Stabbed is right. This would kind of be better off in a social group where we could invite specific members rather than letting anyone post and argue with the random MAYLAY IZ PURFECT LEEVE IT ALOOOOOONE people.

The only downside to that is, though, what of the people who do not check the Social Groups? You'd need people who know how to hack in order to actually implement these ideas. (And being a Melee hacker myself, I would've completely missed this had this been a social group gathering versus a topic -- as a topic, I nearly missed it as it was!).
Just saying. Kind of hard to get things rolling when the people who needs to see it don't or can't.

(...Also, Mewtwo needs to have some kind of epic lengthy-psychic grab, working similarly to Samus/Link/Young Link. Because, well, being psychic, it would make sense. )

 

[ScoobyCafe]

As awesome as this thread is, Stabbed is right. This would kind of be better off in a social group where we could invite specific members rather than letting anyone post and argue with the random MAYLAY IZ PURFECT LEEVE IT ALOOOOOONE people.

That's pretty much what Stabbed is saying, which no, I don't agree with. If what we're discussing gets his panties all raveled up, no one is forcing him or anyone else to stay and contribute anything to this thread. Nothing we're doing here warrants a lock.

(...Also, Mewtwo needs to have some kind of epic lengthy-psychic grab, working similarly to Samus/Link/Young Link. Because, well, being psychic, it would make sense. )

It would makes sense, but yeah... I don't know how that'd work. =/

I should also mention that Mewtwo's spot dodge needs to be much better. **** is bad.

 

[Archangel]

That's pretty much what Stabbed is saying, which no, I don't agree with. If what we're discussing gets his panties all raveled up, no one is forcing him or anyone else to stay and contribute anything to this thread. Nothing we're doing here warrants a lock.



It would makes sense, but yeah... I don't know how that'd work. =/

I should also mention that Mewtwo's spot dodge needs to be much better. **** is bad.

He Needs to just be Made Completely Psychic IMO. Not just the grab part with as long as It's not as long a Samus's. Maybe YL's rather than Links range. Don't know how It can be Done you say? Marth has a Psychic grab already son! Why not Make some of his Moves at least with his hands have farther range also. His jab could be just a little farther but not so that it's farther than his tail. His Fair could have slightly wider range...etc.

 

[Archangel]

Don't mean to double post but.....Is the Mew2 topic over already?

 

[Oracle]

I don't really know. Most of the main points have been covered. Let's move on to boozer because I know how to do that.

 

[Zombie Bob]

I would promote balancing everyone to CFalcon level.

because Melee CFalcon is the best character ever created, and thusly I would change nothing about him.

I wholeheartedly agree.

Now I know this is my second post, so pardons if I seem ignorant/uninformed anywhere in this post. (inb4lolnub)

But I really like the idea of the low/bottom tiers being on the same level of being able to compete with the likes of Marth/Shiek/Fox/Falco...

But it would be interesting, and a lot of fun to see certain characters buffed:

NOTE: I take no credit for the suggestions ahead. Some of these may have and already have been suggested in previous posts.
Kirby:

1. His air mobility has to be on par, if not a tad less than Jiggs.
2. Nair will do 12% damage on contact and knockback will be increased.
3. All smash attacks will have increased knockback/strength
4. F-tilt knockback increased slightly
5. U-tilt needs to be faster and have more priority
6. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Uair.
7. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Bair.
8. Remove lag from Dair
9. Either better damage or knockback for Fair
10. No sweetspot on hammer, i.e. strong wherever it hits
11. Better placed hitboxes for F-smash and U-smash
12. Dashing speed should be a bit faster
13. Final Cutter to be longer and faster
14. Brawl-esque F-throw and B-throw
15. U-throw KO potential slightly better
16. Running attack will be shorter and have less ending lag

There's a few more things I think needs to be done to Kirby (I think his Dair and running attack needs something else) but here's some things I came up with. Will add more later.

^...That.
Also:
* better damage/priority/knockback, and Less ending lag on Running A

Ness:
* Increase damage and knockback,on his yo-yo smashes.
* Less startup lag on D-air, so it would be on par with Captain Falcon's or Falco's spikes.
* Longer grab reach, akin to Marth, since his throws are amazing. What? He's psychic.
* Allow his PK thunder to go through opponents like Lucas's in SSBB, so he's just a wee bit harder to gimp. Also give him better knockback on the PK Thunder 2.
* Less ending lag on PK Fire and PSI Magnet.

Pikachu:
* Better reach on grabs and tilts.
* Better reach and priority on Fair.
* Less lag on Bair and Dair.
* More damage and better knockback from Uair.
* Larger shield
* Better wavedash.

Link:
* Less startup/ending lag on attacks in general. (Tilts, Fair, etc.)
* More damaging throws.
* A semi-decent recovery. Maybe his midair Spin Attack could go higher and farther.
* Make him harder to combo. Either give him less hitstun or make him floatier.
* Better wavedash.

Mario:
* Better grab range.
* Decreased startup lag and larger hitbox on Fair.
* Give his Dair spike properties like Kirby's Dair.
* Better priority and range on Mario Tornado. Also, make it easier to recover with.
* More stun on fireballs so he can rush with them like Doc.
* Make his Dtilt useful.

Donkey Kong:
* Better reach and less startup lag on headbutt.
* Less hitstun so he cant' be comboed as easily.
* Larger shield.
* Better wavedash.

Luigi:
* Less startup/ending lag on fireballs.
* A better approach. |
(There's a lot I don't know about Luigi, so I can't say too much else. Feel free to contribute if you've anything to add.)

Samus:
* Much quicker roll.
* Better homing ability on Missiles.

 

[Steelia]

'ey there, Zombie Bob, welcome.

Nice points you've got going there... Just that, you're kind of skipping ahead; we're knocking out characters day-by-day, so right now I THINK we're still discussing on how to semi-improve on Mewtwo (we've already knocked out Kirby and Pichu at this point). Bowser's up on the horizon, going in order from bottom to top.
But, I suppose, it doesn't hurt to get some points in early.

 

[Stevo]

I think whenever the crowd cheers, no matter what character they are cheering for, they should start cheering "Metaknight!, Metaknight!" Except for Roy. Cuz hes are boi.

I guess Kirby is essentially done, since nobody has complained or said otherwise. When I get the time I will edit his changes on the first post.

 

[lordvaati]

the most obvious change to give to bowser right now is to give him a higher second jump and up-B.also, I wonder if he would work better with a faster falling speed.

 

[Scientifically God]

Change ness to make him high/top tier.

 

[Archangel]

the most obvious change to give to bowser right now is to give him a higher second jump and up-B.also, I wonder if he would work better with a faster falling speed.

He might. Idk. I think it would help him avoid being Camped to death. I'm not sure but the other best option my be to shrink him in size

Change ness to make him high/top tier.

Posssible but not his turn yet. I think by the end everyone will be at least High or Top. It's not possible to make everyone top and since alot of High's are dominating the tournament scene there shouldn't be any complaints.

 

[Zombie Bob]

'ey there, Zombie Bob, welcome.

Nice points you've got going there... Just that, you're kind of skipping ahead; we're knocking out characters day-by-day, so right now I THINK we're still discussing on how to semi-improve on Mewtwo (we've already knocked out Kirby and Pichu at this point). Bowser's up on the horizon, going in order from bottom to top.
But, I suppose, it doesn't hurt to get some points in early.

Sorry to jump the gun there.
But keep up the good work, this is an interesting thread.

 

[Oracle]

For kirby, in addition to scooby's suggestions, his dair needs to start faster (obviously not 64 speed, but much faster than now), his up B needs to have the same movement properties that it did in 64 (keep momentum that you're going when you use it and control his direction while he's going down, so it's easier to recover), his up tilt needs more initial knockback and less growth so it's better for combos.

I also think d throw should have a tad more hitstun and end faster because when you use it on a lot of characters, it looks like it's the perfect throw to combo out of, but then you have a lot of ending lag after the throw, so the other character can jump or attack before you can do anything.

Fair needs to start nigh instantly, without that startup bull, so it can be used for combos.

 

[Archangel]

Sorry....I had no choice.

 

[Archangel]

Sorry to jump the gun there.
But keep up the good work, this is an interesting thread.

It's all good. The thread is kinda coming to a crawl as people run out of Idea's for Kirby/Bowser/Mewtwo. I have to jump the gun myself it seems. Cuz I was thinking of Idea's for G&W. I was wondering if we should Edit his SideB. Maybe make him always do his 9 hammer. However it won't be as powerful. Perhaps it'll be like Jiggs's rest.

 

[Oracle]

If G&W always did the nine it would be ridiculously broken because unlike jigg's rest, there isn't a four second lag time. It's like the homerun bat but faster.

G@W has a solid offensive game, he mostly just needs a few minor tweaks to his defense
- Bigger shield that covers his entire body when full.
- L canceling on all aerials
- slightly heavier
- Less lag on up B landing
- Less hitstun (he weighs less than jiggs but gets combo'ed like mario now)

Offensive
- D throw less DI-able (now it's like shiek's in pal)
- Up smash faster
- D tilt with less growth
- Up air with more initial knockback
- Parachute hits at slightly lower angle

 

[Archangel]

Yea your right. In fact you could Dthrow>9 hammer some people for a stock LOL.

 

[Zombie Bob]

If G&W always did the nine it would be ridiculously broken because unlike jigg's rest, there isn't a four second lag time. It's like the homerun bat but faster.

G@W has a solid offensive game, he mostly just needs a few minor tweaks to his defense
- Bigger shield that covers his entire body when full.
- L canceling on all aerials
- slightly heavier
- Less lag on up B landing
- Less hitstun (he weighs less than jiggs but gets combo'ed like mario now)

Offensive
- D throw less DI-able (now it's like shiek's in pal)
- Up smash faster
- D tilt with less growth
- Up air with more initial knockback
- Parachute hits at slightly lower angle

Solid buffs.
Maybe it would be a good idea to G&W a (much) faster roll, even if wavedashing is almost always the better choice at high levels of play.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah, forgot about that XD. One of the worst rolls.
We need some sort of compendium. I might make some sort of more organized discussion thread in a while.

 

[AprilShaw]

fox: can't jc shine, nair less priority

falco: make his down throw bounce you up slightly

jiggs: make rest hit you upwards

sheik: make fair and dthrow suck

marth: give him less range and speed up his side b

Global: everyone falls slower, auto l-canceling, take out wavedashing. oh also you should put in something to hinder movement, it'll help low tiers =D like lower dash dance windows, or a random chance of your dash failing, like a trip or something.

it'll be awesome and we'll call it melee+

Spoiler

don't worry i'm just messing with you :D keep up the good work

 

[Oracle]

At first I was like >
but then I lol'd

 

[Zombie Bob]

It's all good. The thread is kinda coming to a crawl as people run out of Idea's for Kirby/Bowser/Mewtwo. I have to jump the gun myself it seems. Cuz I was thinking of Idea's for G&W.

Since we're jumping around, any more ideas for G&W?
How about the other bottom tiers?
I posted some ideas for Ness a few posts back (Buff his yoyos, improve his recovery, give him a better grab reach, make his Down+B quicker like the shine, and improve his Dair.)
... and Yoshi could use some serious buffs (a quicker roll, a quicker grab with better range, and the ability to jump out of his shield-- heck, a better shield in general.)

 

[Rayku]

Buff the living hell out of Roy.

Make him Marth, but with a sweetspot on all of his Fsmash.

Make that all of his smash attacks.

make his recovery recover.

Bam, character born and raised to be as manly as Ganondorf and Captain Falcon

 

[Archangel]

Buff the living hell out of Roy.

Make him Marth, but with a sweetspot on all of his Fsmash.

Make that all of his smash attacks.

make his recovery recover.

Bam, character born and raised to be as manly as Ganondorf and Captain Falcon

Roy with a few changes could easily be better then marth. Even if he was to keep his speed. If he had an easier spike, Better recovery, Less lag on his attacks and aerial moves because of his fall speed, And if did the same kind of power at long range that he does at close then he would be pretty good. Also if his counter was longer/ that or it had Zero lag and was as instant as the shine but in exchange did far less damage. Either way My point is a few mixes and Roy is right in the head of the pack. Same goes with everyone.

 

[Zombie Bob]

Buff the living hell out of Roy.

Roy?
* Make him heavier
* Less hitstun, so he'd be harder to combo
* better hitstun on attacks so he can combo more easily
* An up+B that goes farther and higher, so he can recover.

...That's all I can think of.
Any other characters?

 

[Archangel]

What the hell do we do about young link? I can't think of what to do with him. I mean hill get some edits that are like links but how can we make him better without and make him more of an individual.

 

[Zombie Bob]

What the hell do we do about young link? I can't think of what to do with him. I mean hill get some edits that are like links but how can we make him better without and make him more of an individual.

His most obvious weaknesses are his recovery and his lack of a solid finsher.

* Longer range on midair hookshot (to improve recovery)
* Fix his spin attack and bombs so they can actually trap opponents for every hit.
* Improved shield (deku shield) that consistently blocks projectiles.
* Needs a reliable finisher. Buff the knockback on his smashes so that he can kill more easily.

Other than that, just improve on Link's weaknesses...
* Make him harder to combo. I was thinking it would help if he suffered less hitstun from attacks. (If one were to make him floatier like Samus, then his shffl'd nair might not be as useful.)
* Reduce the startup/ending lag on his moves in general, especially his tilts and smashes. Also remove the ending lag on his dash attack.
* A third jump that goes farther and higher, to aid Link's notoriously bad recovery.

 

[Oracle]

For roy, the only major change should be to stretch his center hitboxes out across all of his sword, so the ends aren't like being hit by paper. Also he needs a not ******** recovery.

Young link needs faster projectiles that do more damage, longer range, and faster kill moves, such as his f tilt.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Back.

Looking through the posts, I can see that not a lot got done lol; thought you guys would move on to Bowser since Mewtwo is practically done, as far as I'm concerned. That is, unless someone got anything else to add. Til then...

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi: ☐
Bowser: ☐
Mewtwo:
Kirby:
Pichu:

So, how do we make Boozer made cute?