If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[metaXzero]

OK Spam_Arrows. You got me a bit on the slippery slope. But you are kinda ignoring the OTHER disaster; Overbuffing the lower characters. I really don't want to see a nasty power creep with several characters when we could have just tinkered with one thing on a Top tier like Sheik's CG.

If we round out the top tiers while fixing the lower tiers, we have a better chance of a balanced game without flip flops all around (though we shouldn't strive to avoid flipflops since nothing significant will get done then). The key with the Top tiers is to not change them drastically or nerf little things that won't change the match-up

As for those who'd hate to see top tier characters nerfed, do you think they'd like the thought of their character suddenly being hard-countered by a character who got overbuffed to deal with one top tier match-up because we wouldn't change that that top tier?

But as I said before, for another time. Back to Kirby.

Are their any other buffs we want?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'd still axe Sheik's chain grab because it's stupid.

Having said that, I would try to limit the amount of tinkering with the top tiers as a whole. I think making the low tiers capable of standing on their own feet is preferable to busting Falco and friends' kneecaps.

For Kirby specifically, though, more aerial mobility to start. A throw with the potential to do damage, and a better dashing speed.

 

[GodFed]

Keep this up, all of you. I love it. It's like a dream.
Honestly, I've been working quite a bit at looking into the model data, animations, and hitboxes for the characters. I don't have anything worthwhile yet that can be implemented, though.

I wouldn't want to nerf top tiers. Falco's lasers are essential. Fox's waveshine snazz is necessary. Shiek is top b/c of speed+dthrow. I like the whole "high tier goal" for lower characters. Maybe high middle for a few.

Throwing out ideas:
Kirby's throws. Don't let characters escape the f and b throws.
Y. Link's/Yoshi's grab speed.
Ness's/M2's/GW's/Pichu/etc grab range.
Ganon/Roy/GW/DK second jump height.
Lengthen/speed up the wavedashes/air dodges of a few characters.Link/Y.Link/Zelda/Ganon/Ness/GW
Make a few dashdances useful. Link/Zelda especially.

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ GodFed:

Kirby Brawl F-throw would be cool, IMO. No suicide, but combos. I agree his throws shouldn't be breakable, but suicide throws are somewhat lame and promote really stupid play (camp edge, dd grab, stock). Alternatively, maybe make them escapable to a percent and inescapable after that percent, so they're not usable as a gimp (unless epic stupidity occurs) but a useful utility for suicide combos (not sure how that would work with Kirby's design, but oh well).

Yoshi needs to be able to jump out of shield more than anything. And faster shield grab. I don't think grabs in Smash as a general rule should be slower than frame 9-10. Unless Yoshi digests someone with his grab and does 50% and launches them with set knockback for any aerial he wants, his current grab has to be faster. The amount of work that goes into acquiring a grab with the bulk of the slow grab characters is dumb. What's even dumber is that most of them don't get much for it either. One of those things has to change. I think just making grabs slightly faster would be easier than saying "Samus F-throw does 19% with twice the knockback of Peach F-throw".

On that note, more characters need to reach forward when they grab. Or they need to have bigger grab hitboxes.

A short second jump height is in theory a good thing because it acts as another means to space a short distance in the air. Ganon's second jump height is very good for him, imo, because it's well-designed for how he spaces his aerials. Characters like Roy, with the potential to be able to do stuff like that, should have better aerials so they can take advantage of it.

Standardized jump speed = faster wavedashes.

 

[N64]

I should mention I essentially agree with KK on this. Sheik's CG is the only real grey area for me (as sheik herself is really good at getting grabs, and CG can mean a stock for some characters). Though, I should mention that there are plenty of other characters that can CG some low tiers. I know Pika and Link get it the worst, Pika can be CG'd at least a decent amount by: Sheik, Ganon, ICs, Solo popo, Mario and Doc, and some other characters just get guaranteed tilts/smashes/aerials on him from a grab. He still can win some of these matchups (I think Ganon v Pika is completely even), it's just sheik already has an advantage over Pika even without the CG, so if Pika is buffed a bit in some areas this may not become as huge of an advantage. So if we nerf Shiek's dthrow are we nerfing others' dthrows too? etc.

Falco's lasers are extremely annoying, but fine. Falco without lasers = mid tier.

Also it's to my understanding that what we want to create is a situation where every character is tournament-viable. This does NOT necessarily mean every matchup has to be even. It means that every character should have an equalish number of good and bad mtchups, and an approximate equality in goodness/badness of his matchups (for every extremely bad matchup he has an extremely good one, etc.). Making a 'rebalanced' melee with 26 characters who all have even matchups with every other character while still maintaining the amount of variety and depth of melee seems, frankly, an impossible task to me.

 

[metaXzero]

Yeah. I'm not in favor of sweeping nerfs across all the Top tiers. Just small tinks here and there, but nothing that makes them foreign. Most of the changes should go to the fixing lower tiers. Though honestly, I can't think what we would do with Falco and Marth. :/

I'd say we should shoot for at least 60:40 match-ups. 50:50 seems like an impossiblity lol.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't think Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Jigglypuff, and Falcon warrant a change. I think they're all good enough to compete in terms of their current power and don't need to be altered for balance.

Sheik should lose her chain grab. I'm not sure what degree people want it gone. I think a compromise could be made between NTSC and PAL. I think if her d-throw launched more (more knockback) it would balance. Spacies still hit the floor before she can do legit combo if they DI away. CGables DI up and get launched so high they can't possibly be regrabbed. Provided you tinkered the stun accordingly so nothing stupid comes out of this (ie. D-throw U-smash as a combo at any percent resulting from this would be something to avoid), I think that would be preferable. Having said that, if that won't work, then PAL D-throw is the best alternative.

For clarity, I only feel Sheik's D-throw presents this issue because of the ease in which she gets her grabs. She doesn't work hard for them. At least Ganon and Mario have issues of low grab range and being somewhat slow. Sheik is agile, has monstrous grab range, and many, many setups. To give her a potential death combo for something she can get really easily is broken.

Her game is only altered against that specific group of characters. Overall, she is still the same character. Her game against space animals from throw remains the same. Her game on floaties and semi-floaties from throw remains the same; perhaps slightly tweaked, but the same style of combo is still used. The only real change is that instead of auto-deathing the low tiers, she has to do combos.

Fox is different. Fox's Shine angers me immensely. Having said that, it doesn't single out and destroy any single character or select group of characters. It's his whole package that does the job. The lasers, the movement game, the pressure, the kill power, the aforementioned Shine... you would need to remove a lot of what makes Fox a unique character to make low tiers capable of fighting him effectively. Moreover, half the low tier mains claim he's "not that bad" anyway, so I say leave him alone.

The same is applicable to Falco and Marth.

 

[Oracle]

What I was saying was that if we nerfed the top (not high) tiers down to high tier-ish level, then it would be easier to balance the other characters accordingly with less of a risk for overcompensation because they still lose hard to high tiers.

^That's really good for the d throw, but I think she should be balanced just a tad more overall. maybe slightly less killing power on the fair, slightly slower ftilt (though I think it would be hard to impliment the right speed without making it super slow), less priority, etc. so she can retain her sheikiness without being a big step ahead of everyone else.

 

[KirbyKaze]

If we're just going to nerf all the top tiers anyways down to a high tier level, why would the low and mid tiers need buffing then? Most of the low and mid tier matchups vs Falcon and Peach aren't pointedly impossible until you get to the very bottom of the barrel (Pichu, Kirby) or character-specific cases (YLink can beat Peach sometimes but never Falcon).

edit: Or is the goal to knock out the character-specific cases? I'm all for ICs Peach being 60-40 if it can be done, but it seems like a lot of unnecessary work would need to go into it to ensure both characters still can be played similarly to their Melee counterpart.

 

[metaXzero]

The only other changes I could personally approve for are a weaker U-Smash and U-air for Fox. They should still be KO moves, but at higher percents. Besides that, I think the rest of Top/High is fine (as in changing them will end up changing too much) and we should focus on buffing the lower tiers for now.

 

[Archangel]

Alright fine. Since we are going on this path anyway....why not make Falcon Punch a 1 hit kill or at least as damaging as Jigg's rest. Why not? Also I'm sick of being shine spiked....Lets make it so that the Shine knocks you straight to the left or right. Also lets cut the effect of the Tip in half and while we are at it Make his Fair Lag a bit more so there can't be any M2K edge guarding. Also Lets remove Peach's Stitch face, bombs and Beam Sword, Also lets make IC's Ice Cube's a spike, We should also Make Falco's Lasers as slow as Samus's Missiles, Not to mention Also lets make Jigg's Rest as effective as Luigi's UpB. Lets change the angle of everyone's grab so that CG's don't exist........that would fix the problems....This is the Brawl+ Thread all over again it seems....I was apart of the original discussion on B+ And I remember this....now it's history repeating itself I guess.

I'll just say it again. Rather than Nerfing Top/High right away lets just leave them be. Who knows a small tweak and change in Stun could make CG's for Sheik alot like trying to CG Luigi. I mean everybody has someone in the High/Top that they secretly hate but if everyone has there way They will all suck bawls before the project even gets started. I mean it's pretty easy to pump out Ideas of for nerfing the better characters but lets wait and make sure they are still Better before we **** them up IMO.

as far as the CG is concerned. Maybe raising the distance you pop up when slammed as someone else mentioned could make a difference enough. I mean we could give her the Pal Throw if we wanted but as I stated earlier lets make sure it's still broken by the time we are done with the buffs first.


I think it's pretty clear where everyone stands on Kirby he seems. Long story short. He sucks do something about it LOL.

Should we move on to M2 now?

 

[Stevo]

Hey guys
what if we removed the ability for sheik to grab characters in the air LOL.

(actually, if it was kind of like link's grab, where it sorta can grab in the air if they are near the ground, it MIGHT be a potential way to fix her grab)

From first post

Kirby
increase aerial control (not like jiggly but a little bit)
make neutral air suck less?
Increase knockback of smashes slightly (especially f-smash)
Increase Kirby's speed a lot when using run attack (kinda like how sheik speeds up, but less)
let him combo from one of his throws (back throw pop straight up maybe?)


Kirby has a GREAT grab, he just can't do anything with it. So I would say, making his backthrow pop them straight up, or having a quicker recovery from down throw would be needed. His run attack needs to be buffed somehow... its almost as bad as luigi's.

If he has better air mobility his up-b does not need to be changed, since he can recover without it even better, and would only need it for vertical recovery anyway.

and yeah, remove the ability to escape his grabs once he has started them.

Make his smashes, up air, and Hammer better/easier to hit with. (better sweet spots etc)

So, unless im mistaken, everyone sort of agrees with these changes?

- air mobility
- neutral air suckage removed
- Hammer, Smashes, up-air (kill moves) easierto hit with/stronger/more usable
- improve run attack in some way (speed it up or shorten it)
- fix his throws, including allowing him to combo from at least one of them
- Anything I missed?

(I quote myself like a champ)

 

[metaXzero]

Didn't most of us here agree that besides changing Sheik's D-throw so it just doesn't CG, that we shouldn't change much (if anything) to the other Top guys (and not mess with high). IMO, if we have to tinker with the rest, it should be about nerfing strengths (like nerfing Fox's U-air and U-Smash so it KOs a little later, or reducing the stun on Falco's lasers) instead of just taking taking stuff away. Fox should still be KOing with U-Smash and U-air and Falco should still be utilizing his lasers.

Basically, we should try our best to retain the Top tier's standard Melee selves. For me, making frame changes to characters like slowing down Marth's F-air or Sheik's F-tilt are deviating them too far from their Melee selves. I guess what I want to say is, if they play the same, fine. If Fox is still shine spiking and getting most KOs with U-Smash and U-air, Sheik is still doing D-throw -> F-air and F-tilt->F-air, Falco still camps and approaches with lasers, etc., then we are doing fine.

But for now, let's go back to the lower characters. We've been trying to do that for sometime now

 

[Archangel]

Didn't most of us here agree that besides changing Sheik's D-throw so it just doesn't CG, that we shouldn't change much (if anything) to the other Top guys (and not mess with high). IMO, if we have to tinker with the rest, it should be about nerfing strengths (like nerfing Fox's U-air and U-Smash so it KOs a little later, or reducing the stun on Falco's lasers) instead of just taking taking stuff away. Fox should still be KOing with U-Smash and U-air and Falco should still be utilizing his lasers.

Basically, we should try our best to retain the Top tier's standard Melee selves. For me, making frame changes to characters like slowing down Marth's F-air or Sheik's F-tilt are deviating them too far from their Melee selves. I guess what I want to say is, if they play the same, fine. If Fox is still shine spiking and getting most KOs with U-Smash and U-air, Sheik is still doing D-throw -> F-air and F-tilt->F-air, Falco still camps and approaches with lasers, etc., then we are doing fine.

But for now, let's go back to the lower characters. We've been trying to do that for sometime now

That's how it starts I guess....If I wanted to rob someone of their money I wouldn't do it all at once. I'd steal a dollar a day until they were broke.

but i'm past the Sheik think. Now I wanna know why we are moving to Fox/Falco(as I predicted). I guess the main problem with talks of nerfing these to is that there is no specifics. How much is a little? If you nerf Fox's Upsmash/Uair past a certain point then he loses his spot in top to Peach maybe even Jiggs because he no longer can kill them on places like Dream land. So you gotta be careful. Nerfing by like...%'s or something is okay I guess just as long as it doesn't turn into Jigg's Upsmash.....

 

[metaXzero]

@Spam_arrows

Like I said, "if we have to". I didn't say "We MUST nerf Fox and Falco now! Then move down to Peach and,..."

 

[Oracle]

@Spam: Those were all examples of really extreme nerfs. We need small nerfs to bring the top tiers down a level because the gap between high and top isn't that big. A huge change like you suggested would make them lower than that and completely change their playstyle.

These nerfs would be more along the lines of less damage and priority, maybe some speed ones, and slightly less power on kill moves. Aside from shiek's d throw, not a lot of specific changes would be in order.

@KK: The goal isn't to knock out specific bad matchups because doing so would make that character broken against everyone else. Even with top tiers at high tier level, we would still have to buff them because they would still suck. Roy would still lose to everyone.

 

[N64]

I would promote balancing everyone to CFalcon level.

because Melee CFalcon is the best character ever created, and thusly I would change nothing about him.

 

[Anth0ny]

I would promote balancing everyone to CFalcon level.

because Melee CFalcon is the best character ever created, and thusly I would change nothing about him.

This.

Oh God this.

Melee + would be a fun experiment I think, but I don't see it happening any time soon.

 

[Archangel]

@Spam_arrows

Like I said, "if we have to". I didn't say "We MUST nerf Fox and Falco now! Then move down to Peach and,..."

I just wanted to say I love you man....no seriously...I love you alot.

 

[lordvaati]

with Fox, as he is, hes OK. the Shine is Supposed to shoot people down, just like Falco's is supposed to shoot people up. with the Up smash, i suggest reducing the hitbox rather then knockback.

 

[Vro]

because Melee CFalcon is the best character ever created, and thusly I would change nothing about him.

I propose one single change to our beloved character: aerial raptor boost should sweet spot the ledge.

 

[Archangel]

I thought of an Idea for link. It may be kinda out of order but I was wondering what if we made his Fair a turn around move. Like how Marth's Bair turns him around. If that was possible you could do a Fair, to Bair Gimp on alot of characters or even a Fair to Nair then Air dodge and Grab the stage....It looks good in my head. What do you think?

 

[lordvaati]

I propose one single change to our beloved character: aerial raptor boost should sweet spot the ledge.

ditto for Ganon.

 

[N64]

I thought of an Idea for link. It may be kinda out of order but I was wondering what if we made his Fair a turn around move. Like how Marth's Bair turns him around. If that was possible you could do a Fair, to Bair Gimp on alot of characters or even a Fair to Nair then Air dodge and Grab the stage....It looks good in my head. What do you think?

I love it. Unique ideas own.

 

[1048576]

I knew we were going to turn every character into Mario with G-Dub's recovery. Falcon and Ganon don't need improved recoveries. They have other strengths which compensate.

 

[Archangel]

I love it. Unique ideas own.

yes they do! I think i'll do this more often

I knew we were going to turn every character into Mario with G-Dub's recovery. Falcon and Ganon don't need improved recoveries. They have other strengths which compensate.

such as Falcon kicks. now you could always change the dimensions up but there isn't much of a need. maybe SideB edits so they can grab the edge but that's about it.

 

[1048576]

That's what I was talking about. Why should their side-B's get the edge? Those 2 characters are still entirely playable even with their predictable recovery.

I get that if a character has a crippling weakness that makes him/her low tier all by itself, or if the character has no standout strengths, then weaknesses should be covered. It seems that in order to preserve character diversity, those situations should be avoided as much as possible though.

 

[Stevo]

nobody should want the top tier to be nerfed down to falcon. This would make falcon less cool. The reason falcon is so awesome, is cause you gotta be good to win a tournament with him, but he still ***** either way.

Also, DOES NOBODY CARE ABOUT KIRBY?

 

[Steelia]

Also, DOES NOBODY CARE ABOUT KIRBY?

I guess not in Melee. )':
Shall we carry on to the next on the list?

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Also, DOES NOBODY CARE ABOUT KIRBY?

^ Was just about to mention that; you guys need to stop bickering about other things and focus on improving the middle-bottom tier characters. Seriously, argue about whatever afterwards.

So, unless im mistaken, everyone sort of agrees with these changes?

- air mobility
- neutral air suckage removed
- Hammer, Smashes, up-air (kill moves) easierto hit with/stronger/more usable
- improve run attack in some way (speed it up or shorten it)
- fix his throws, including allowing him to combo from at least one of them
- Anything I missed?

I just spent about half an hour analyzing Kirby from all three games, and I'm starting to develop a concrete idea of how we can improve him.

1. His air mobility has to be on par, if not a tad less than Jiggs.
2. Nair will do 12% damage on contact and knockback will be increased.
3. All smash attacks will have increased knockback/strength
4. F-tilt knockback increased slightly
5. U-tilt needs to be faster and have more priority
6. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Uair.
7. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Bair.
8. Remove lag from Dair
9. Either better damage or knockback for Fair
10. No sweetspot on hammer, i.e. strong wherever it hits
11. Better placed hitboxes for F-smash and U-smash
12. Dashing speed should be a bit faster
13. Final Cutter to be longer and faster
14. Brawl-esque F-throw and B-throw
15. U-throw KO potential slightly better
16. Running attack will be shorter and have less ending lag

There's a few more things I think needs to be done to Kirby (I think his Dair and running attack needs something else) but here's some things I came up with. Will add more later.

Like the changes so far? Yay or nay?

 

[Archangel]

nobody should want the top tier to be nerfed down to falcon. This would make falcon less cool. The reason falcon is so awesome, is cause you gotta be good to win a tournament with him, but he still ***** either way.

Also, DOES NOBODY CARE ABOUT KIRBY?

^ Was just about to mention that; you guys need to stop bickering about other things and focus on improving the middle-bottom tier characters. Seriously, argue about whatever afterwards.



I just spent about half an hour analyzing Kirby from all three games, and I'm starting to develop a concrete idea of how we can improve him.

1. His air mobility has to be on par, if not a tad less than Jiggs.
2. Nair will do 12% damage on contact and knockback will be increased.
3. All smash attacks will have increased knockback/strength
4. F-tilt knockback increased slightly
5. U-tilt needs to be faster and have more priority
6. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Uair.
7. A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Bair.
8. Remove lag from Dair
9. Either better damage or knockback for Fair
10. No sweetspot on hammer, i.e. strong wherever it hits
11. Better placed hitboxes for F-smash and U-smash
12. Dashing speed should be a bit faster
13. Final Cutter to be longer and faster
14. Brawl-esque F-throw and B-throw
15. U-throw KO potential slightly better
16. Running attack will be shorter and have less ending lag

There's a few more things I think needs to be done to Kirby (I think his Dair and running attack needs something else) but here's some things I came up with. Will add more later.

Like the changes so far? Yay or nay?

ummm...the bickering is over....you guys are too late

and...everything there is to be said about kirby has been stated. Just go back and read what people have said.

Next!!!! It's time we make Mew2 a King!...fail pun!

 

[Ghetto Fabulous]

-make marth and falcos spikes into meteors
-for gods sake make the camera bigger so you can see more around you, you shouldnt lose a stock because you cant see the edge or how you should space yourself
-heres how you make the low tiers better: give them throw to large powerful hit combos. ALL of the top tiers have either a powerful throw, or a throw to lots of combos or a throw to a big powerful hit combo that is almost always guaranteed
-make shields size dependent, or atleast make them standard for everyone, gaw gets ***** cause his shield sucks so much, also allow gaw to l-cancel all of his aerials (seriously, wtf is with that)
-make rolls standard, as an example why: gaw is only protected 1/3 of the time he is rolling
-remove fox's laser entirely, he shouldnt be allowed to camp
-remove things that the lower tiers have that are obvious reason why they are worse. like how samus needs to rely on upb out of shield to get out of pressure, but if you do it at anything other than high percent they will recover much faster and will hit you in return. You shouldnt get punished when you hit someone and they havent cc'ed it.
-make all multihit attacks much harder to get out of. Other than peach none of the top tiers have multi hit moves, but the low tiers do and they get punished for using them

 

[metaXzero]

@Ghetto Fabulous

-Either this or remove all meteors or all spikes. One or the other.
-Wouldn't mind
-That be fine
-YES!
-sure
-*winces* While Melee would probably be better without Fox's current laser, I don't think it'd be wise to remove it or even change it. At the very least, it would be best to wait untill after the lower character changes
-Agreed.
-I wouldn't have a problem with

BTW, anyone even have an idea on how to get this started? Particularly, a method of implementing this without ISO hacking?

editted to avoid further confusion.

 

[joeplicate]

Alright fine. Since we are going on this path anyway....why not make Falcon Punch a 1 hit kill or at least as damaging as Jigg's rest. Why not? Also I'm sick of being shine spiked....Lets make it so that the Shine knocks you straight to the left or right. Also lets cut the effect of the Tip in half and while we are at it Make his Fair Lag a bit more so there can't be any M2K edge guarding. Also Lets remove Peach's Stitch face, bombs and Beam Sword, Also lets make IC's Ice Cube's a spike, We should also Make Falco's Lasers as slow as Samus's Missiles, Not to mention Also lets make Jigg's Rest as effective as Luigi's UpB. Lets change the angle of everyone's grab so that CG's don't exist........that would fix the problems....This is the Brawl+ Thread all over again it seems....I was apart of the original discussion on B+ And I remember this....now it's history repeating itself I guess.

slipping...slipping...

slope

 

[Archangel]

@Ghetto Fabulous

-Either this or remove all meteors (meaning all spikes).
-Wouldn't mind
-That be fine
-YES!
-sure
-*winces* While Melee would probably be better without Fox's current laser, I don't think it'd be wise to remove it or even change it. At the very least, it would be best to wait until after the lower character changes
-Agreed.
-I wouldn't have a problem with

Remove all spikes and Meteors = Nobody wanting to play this except certain mains who are use to it....like kirby/pichu's. Basically Meaning 8 people.....

You'd be much better giving everyone a spike. Meteors are pointless. Imagine Falco with a meteor?....He'd be dead before his animation was over lol. I mean I guess it would be balance...but making everybody suck equally would just be boring LOL. Scratch that Idea fast or the project dies before it gets started.

As for Mewtwo - Make him less laggy and Brawlish in his movements and Lag. After that He'll be greater. Maybe make his Uair faster so it can be used in a Combo. Make it easier for him to grab the edge coming up from the bottom.

 

[Stevo]

@scoobycafe

I would make kirby`s air mobility less than jiggly, as that is jiggly`s thing, and nobody wants 2 jigglys in melee. Its the same if we made Pichu faster than fox and falcon, it just wouldnt feel right.

However, I would bring his air mobility pretty high though.


Everyone gets so distracted or bored easily in this thread lol.

Also, I am against making rolls and dodges and such `standard`. Whats wrong with some cahracters having good rolls and some having bad rolls. Samus has worst roll and she is good, and many low tiers have excellent rolls.

If you guys wants standardized sheilds, rolls, range, speed, whatever, then why dont you just play a falcon only tournament. Pretty standardized awesomeness there.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

ummm...the bickering is over....you guys are too late

Keep it that way, please. If we're going to focus on Mewtwo next, I don't want us to divert our attention on other things until we're finished. =(

and...everything there is to be said about kirby has been stated. Just go back and read what people have said.

Eh, not much has been explicitly set forth. Like... three people got into anything specific, that's it. I'm gonna come back to this, 'cause it feels like a rough draft at the moment. For now...

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi: ☐
Bowser: ☐
Mewtwo: ☐
Kirby:
Pichu:

Mewtwo is up for improvements.

@scoobycafe

I would make kirby`s air mobility less than jiggly, as that is jiggly`s thing, and nobody wants 2 jigglys in melee. Its the same if we made Pichu faster than fox and falcon, it just wouldnt feel right.

However, I would bring his air mobility pretty high though.

Kirby and Jiggs had the same air speed in SSB64, and practically no one thought it felt out of place. Still, yes, I do want his air speed to be a tad lower than Jiggs, yet significantly better.

You agree with everything else, correct? I don't want to move on unless a good few agrees with the changes.

Everyone gets so distracted or bored easily in this thread lol.

Not bored, just lacking focus, i.e. easily distracted.

Also, I am against making rolls and dodges and such `standard`. Whats wrong with some cahracters having good rolls and some having bad rolls. Samus has worst roll and she is good, and many low tiers have excellent rolls.

If you guys wants standardized sheilds, rolls, range, speed, whatever, then why dont you just play a falcon only tournament. Pretty standardized awesomeness there.

The ones with terrible rolls should rightfully be buffed. No one should have the exact same rolls, range, speed; just adequate enough rolls to use without worrying about a number of consequences. Otherwise, rolling for those characters aren't an option, and we're trying to give bad characters more options here.

 

[Shadow Huan]

Is Mewtwo next? I'm done lurking and I'm in!

 

[metaXzero]

@Spam_arrows

You misunderstood. I meant remove all of one or the other. Everyone's downward sending attacks should either spike or meteor. We shouldn't have crap where Marth and Falco get a spike while Mario and DK get a s****y meteor.

My apologies. My sentence sucked.

 

[Steelia]

Guess I'll just reiterate on what I mentioned earlier, before we started organizing tier changes from bottom to top:

~Mewtwo would need to have a LOT of his ending lag removed on his moves. His back-air, his down-air, his forward-smash, up-smash, AAA combo... Yes, he has quite a bit of lag. Perhaps maybe even turn his aerial spark attack into a single hitter move instead of a multi-hit, with a slightly larger hitbox? (Multi-hitter moves never seem very beneficial in the tourney settings, from what I see.)

I always liked the mechanic where the longer you hold out a move, the stronger it becomes (a la Doc's sex kick), so I would love to see that as the new 1-hitter Mewtwo aerial-A.

Something also needs to be done with his forward-throw... Perhaps just make it a throw instead of a fancy Shadow Ball throwing fest? Though, I know that move has saved me on occasion, specifically in Multi-Man Melee...

Disable, either needs to be lengthened, or switched out entirely... and made so that it can hit an opponent in reverse rather than strictly from the front.

Confusion's an okay move. It's major flaw is long lag if you miss, and when you DO trap someone in it, they have the opportunity to back-air you before you can counter. But, if he were to be given less lag on his Confusion, would that be too much? I mean, imagine getting juggled by nothing but Confusion, and you cannot do anything about it because Mewtwo confuses+escapes/juggles before you can touch him.
...Ah, and making it so Confusion is a true reflector (hurts original sender), and doesn't just send a projectile back without hurting the opponent.