If/When Hacking Melee becomes completely possible

[EC_Joey]

Boozer is perfect just the way he is.

 

[Steelia]

As far as Bowser's concerned, apparently we should look more towards his Brawl counterpart, as it ***** "so much harder" than his Melee version. (Not in looks, however. )

But, if I were to be thorough, probably
~slightly increasing the vertical range of his Up-B
~Forward-B having a LOT less ending lag (as sometimes even I'm guilty of accidentally using it in midair instead of my Up-B, and being horribly punished for it)
~B-move can be controlled moreso a la Brawl
~Give most of his ground-based attacks (forward-smash, down-smash, up-a, forward-a... a's) slightly larger hitboxes
~Give forward-aerial-a larger hitbox
~Longer / Faster roll dodge
~Aerial-A damages for as long as Bowser is in his shell, but weakens over time (like most sex kicks)
~Aerial-up-a slightly less lag

 

[GodFed]

Let's check Boozer out

~slightly increasing the vertical range of his Up-B

This would constitute the need for more vertical knockback, too, to maintain the 30% damage received when you're hit by it. It wouldn't be cool to have them drop through you after one hit

~Forward-B having a LOT less ending lag (as sometimes even I'm guilty of accidentally using it in midair instead of my Up-B, and being horribly punished for it)
~B-move can be controlled moreso a la Brawl
~Give most of his ground-based attacks (forward-smash, down-smash, up-a, forward-a... a's) slightly larger hitboxes

Amen to that

~Give forward-aerial-a larger hitbox

heck, give all the aerials larger hitboxes

~Longer / Faster roll dodge

And spot dodge needs more invulnerability frames
But then again, bowser can do a grounded Up B instead of a roll, which allows for smoother platform movement, and edgegrabs, but faster rolls are always good

~Aerial-A damages for as long as Bowser is in his shell, but weakens over time (like most sex kicks)

'kay, nothing to add here

~Aerial-up-a slightly less lag

L cancel your boozer, sir
But legitimately, could be an option for all the aerials, since bowser is limited severely by his slow lagtime, even with L cancelling.

 

[Steelia]

^ Lagtime, and the fact he's so close range... Perhaps not as bad as Young Link, but in this case he doesn't exactly have speed to back him up, and given his weight it's pretty easy to juggle him around once he hits the right percent.

 

[Archangel]

Bowser should have alternate. If you hold A like Sheik. You should be able to play as a shrunk lighting fast Bowser and call him bowser Jr.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

^ Heh, cute.

All Boozer really needs is slightly more range, speed, and mobility. Emphasize on slightly, 'cause I don't think he needs much to perform better.

That said, what I think he needs at the moment is:

1. Slightly longer range on tilts
2. Slightly longer U-smash range
3. Slightly faster Uair (why not?)
4. Slightly longer standing grab range (shield grab sucks)
5. Slightly faster air speed
6. Slightly faster running speed
7. Slightly higher jumping height
8. Slightly faster falling speed on down special

That's about it. Everything Steelia mentioned I pretty much agree with for the most part. I should probably say that I think Bowser should remain relatively laggy due to his good KO ability and survivability. DJ juice all day.

 

[Archangel]

^ Heh, cute.

All Boozer really needs is slightly more range, speed, and mobility. Emphasize on slightly, 'cause I don't think he needs much to perform better.

That said, what I think he needs at the moment is:

1. Slightly longer range on tilts
2. Slightly longer U-smash range
3. Slightly faster Uair (why not?)
4. Slightly longer standing grab range (shield grab sucks)
5. Slightly faster air speed
6. Slightly faster running speed
7. Slightly higher jumping height
8. Slightly faster falling speed on down special

That's about it. Everything Steelia mentioned I pretty much agree with for the most part. I should probably say that I think Bowser should remain relatively laggy due to his good KO ability and survivability. DJ juice all day.

I think these ideas are good. If there was a way to sacrifices lag in exchange for slight nerfs in knockbacks that could be okay I guess. Aside from the Idea's for Bowser are good.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

I think these ideas are good. If there was a way to sacrifices lag in exchange for slight nerfs in knockbacks that could be okay I guess. Aside from the Idea's for Bowser are good.

As long as it's a slight nerf, then there's nothing wrong with that, I'd think. Slightly weaker, but faster smashes is a good trade-off.

So overall, Bowser is pretty much done, really. Kinda wish there was a bit more input from others, but meh. =/

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi: ☐
Bowser:
Mewtwo:
Kirby:
Pichu:

Yoshi next.

 

[Archangel]

Oh....don't get me started on Yoshi.... First thing. Forget everything else. WTF are we gonna do about his 3rd jump? Or some other way of coming back.

 

[Steelia]

Nooo, Yoshi!

Yoshi's a pretty good character as it is... I know I use Mewtwo quite frequently, and can kick my bros around in-battle quite easily.
...that is, until my youngest bro, YOUNGEST, picks Yoshi. I swear, I dunno how he does it, but that blasted aerial-cranium and swift down-Smash are just too good... I know I've lost a match or two against him because of it (and me, not getting first place in a match, is a rarity indeed... unless I play Fox/Falco because I'm so reckless, lawl).

But yeah, Yoshi.

-I liked the Up-B in Brawl, how you get a very slight boost whenever you used it in the air. I think Yoshi could probably benefit from that.
-Side-B on the ground, I dunno, quicker turning, and less knockback (subsequently, a faster exit from the attack so you can juggle around your opponents faster).
-Side-B not being a recovery. Argh, using that on accident in the air is quite annoying.
-The forward-A in Brawl, I liked. He uses his tail instead of his foot, and it's quicker/longer, too.
-Faster roll dodge; further roll dodge.

All I've got at the moment.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Bowser's jump speed is 9 frames. Which means he has an 8 frame startup on his jump. In the time he can jump, almost every other character can JC grab. Fox can actually get a jc u-smash hitbox out in the same time it takes Bowser to go airborne.

This is a problem.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

@KirbyKaze: I'm thinking it should be about the same as Ganondorf's―7 frames. Anything else you think Bowser needs improvements on?

Oh....don't get me started on Yoshi.... First thing. Forget everything else. WTF are we gonna do about his 3rd jump? Or some other way of coming back.

I'd say his flutter jump needs to be on par with Mewtwo's second jump. Third jump could be the Brawl egg toss bounce... with better bounce.

Nooo, Yoshi!

Yoshi's a pretty good character as it is... I know I use Mewtwo quite frequently, and can kick my bros around in-battle quite easily.
...that is, until my youngest bro, YOUNGEST, picks Yoshi. I swear, I dunno how he does it, but that blasted aerial-cranium and swift down-Smash are just too good... I know I've lost a match or two against him because of it (and me, not getting first place in a match, is a rarity indeed... unless I play Fox/Falco because I'm so reckless, lawl).

But yeah, Yoshi.

-I liked the Up-B in Brawl, how you get a very slight boost whenever you used it in the air. I think Yoshi could probably benefit from that.
-Side-B on the ground, I dunno, quicker turning, and less knockback (subsequently, a faster exit from the attack so you can juggle around your opponents faster).
-Side-B not being a recovery. Argh, using that on accident in the air is quite annoying.
-The forward-A in Brawl, I liked. He uses his tail instead of his foot, and it's quicker/longer, too.
-Faster roll dodge; further roll dodge.

All I've got at the moment.

Good stuff, and lol @ story.

Yoshi:

1. Dash attack needs better damage and knockback
2. All of his tilts need better damage and knockback
3. Get rid of the set-knockback on D-tilt
4. Get rid of helpless state after egg roll in air
5. Better travel distance when using egg roll in air (#4 and #5 are for better recovery)
6. Faster falling speed on down special
7. F-air could be slightly faster
8. Egg throw could be slightly faster

Bonus stuff for egg roll: Able to shield cancel egg roll (yes).

I'm gonna add in some more stuff after I boot up SSB64 real quick.

 

[Zombie Bob]

^ Heh, cute.

All Boozer really needs is slightly more range, speed, and mobility. Emphasize on slightly, 'cause I don't think he needs much to perform better.

That said, what I think he needs at the moment is:

1. Slightly longer range on tilts
2. Slightly longer U-smash range
3. Slightly faster Uair (why not?)
4. Slightly longer standing grab range (shield grab sucks)
5. Slightly faster air speed
6. Slightly faster running speed
7. Slightly higher jumping height
8. Slightly faster falling speed on down special

That's about it. Everything Steelia mentioned I pretty much agree with for the most part. I should probably say that I think Bowser should remain relatively laggy due to his good KO ability and survivability. DJ juice all day.

Great stuff. I would give more input on Bowser, since I have many fond memories of him owning me in Super Mario: the Lost Levels, but there's not much left to contribute that hasn't already been brought up.

As for Yoshi...

* Make his shield less of a liability, like ScoobyCafe posted earlier. It's slow, laggy, and he can't jump out of it. Those problems need fixin'.

* He needs a better grab. It should have longer reach, and much less startup/ending lag.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

^ I think his grabs need the reach of his neutral special, and about the same or a tad lower speed than his neutral special.

Other than that, he needs more priority on both Nair and Dair, plus his throws needs some vast improvements (found some weird **** going on with his throws), i.e. the silly K.O potential on all throws, the lag he suffers from all throws, and how DI prone his down and up throw is.

That's all I got. If anyone wants to add anything else, please do. For now...

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi:
Bowser:
Mewtwo:
Kirby:
Pichu:

Ness left, then we move onward to the low tier characters.

 

[Archangel]

^ I think his grabs need the reach of his neutral special, and about the same or a tad lower speed than his neutral special.

Other than that, he needs more priority on both Nair and Dair, plus his throws needs some vast improvements (found some weird **** going on with his throws), i.e. the silly K.O potential on all throws, the lag he suffers from all throws, and how DI prone his down and up throw is.

That's all I got. If anyone wants to add anything else, please do. For now...

Bottom
Ness: ☐
Yoshi:
Bowser:
Mewtwo:
Kirby:
Pichu:

Ness left, then we move onward to the low tier characters.

Ness is already but we gotta make him less cheatable without breaking him. Perhaps giving him an invincible second jump like Yoshi has would help. Or maybe giving him and electric shield while he's using his up B. Kinda like Firefox for starfox. That's all I got for now. I'm gonna play ness and see what else I come up with.

 

[Stevo]

Graaaaaab Raaaaaaange

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Ness is already but we gotta make him less cheatable without breaking him. Perhaps giving him an invincible second jump like Yoshi has would help. Or maybe giving him and electric shield while he's using his up B. Kinda like Firefox for starfox. That's all I got for now. I'm gonna play ness and see what else I come up with.

I like the electric shield idea. I remember posting something about Ness earlier in this thread--I'm not looking for it, but I basically said his PK Thunder recovery should be something like this.

Also mentioned:

-Being able to cancel PK Flash, Thunder, and Magnet
-Being able to use PK Fire like a feint, i.e. pushing B to cancel PK Fire

These are bonuses, though. What Ness needs is:

• Better range and power on Usmash and Dsmash
• Faster jumping speed
• Faster PK Fire
• Slightly better range and speed on Dair
• Slightly better distance traveled from PK Thunder
• Better range and power for jabs

Graaaaaab Raaaaaaange

And this, lol.

Anything else?

 

[Oracle]

The main problem with ness isn't his offense. His DJC'd fair/nair are pretty good approaches, good combos, etc. His main problem are
- Tiny shield
- No grab range
- Super gimpable up B (with any character you can seriously just sit above him and wait for it to hit you)

The first two are easy fixes; there are a number of things we can do with the third. Personally, I think it would be best improved by giving him a small weak hitbox around his body (like fox) and making the electro-sperm not disappear when it hits something. Still a single hit, but just stays.

None of those things would really help scooby. The feint idea is cool, but in practice it would be a gimmick at best. His jumping speed doesn't really matter that much, and the dair already has a freaking massive hitbox, in addition to staying out for like 4 minutes. His up/d smash really don't need extra range, just to have the good hitboxes the whole time, rather than petering out into jab esque hits.

EDIT: I should really pay attention more so people don't discuss the character's I know things about while I am gone.
All of those boozer edits sound good, but the jump time should definitely be faster, probably 5 or 6 frames would be good. Also change up air speed to barwl up air speed, but keep the power and whatnot. Bigger shield, faster/longer grab, etc. The only huge change I think he needs is to make his side b either
a. Barwl side B startup/lag speed
b. Same startup, slightly less lag, but make the grab range the entire range of the slash effect mark.

Yoshi is pretty sound offensively, aside from the DJ problems and grabs. Just speed his grab up by a lot, let him be able to jump out of shield, and give him bona fide super armor in his 2nd jump so he doesn't get hit by a smash while in his DJ and gets knocked off the stage and dies. In addition, I think to improve his recovery, he should get his DJ back after getting hit in the air.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

^ This is why there needs to be more feedback, lol. I rarely play Ness, so I honestly wouldn't know how to improve the kid.

I acknowledge that the feint idea would be gimmick of sorts, hence why I called it a bonus. And the only reason I mentioned giving him better range for U/Dsmash is because I remember both being rather long in SSB64. Meh.

You don't like the recovery idea I mentioned before? =(

All of those boozer edits sound good, but the jump time should definitely be faster, probably 5 or 6 frames would be good. Also change up air speed to barwl up air speed, but keep the power and whatnot. Bigger shield, faster/longer grab, etc. The only huge change I think he needs is to make his side b either
a. Barwl side B startup/lag speed
b. Same startup, slightly less lag, but make the grab range the entire range of the slash effect mark.

7 frames, 6 frame start-up should suffice. And B sounds good, I'd say. Pretty much agree with the Yoshi bits.

 

[Steelia]

What happened to Ness' Up-B from 64? That thing had MASSIVE range; he could fly up from the bottom of Final Destination if it was aimed right. XD

Something HAS to be done with those blasted Yo-yo Smash attacks. SOMETHING. They're so pitifully weak, and leave you so open it's not even funny.

Bat seems fine to me, however.

Faster execution of... forward-B? Or, perhaps, just more reach?
A LOT less ending lag for his B-move?
Slower-paced Up-B? Or, if not (and if using it in the air), Ness doesn't drop down as fast so he can actually hit himself further vertically? Down-B does slight damage upon initial execution (a la Lucas' PSI Magnet in Brawl)?

Forward-A on ground has... less ending lag.
Forward-aerial-A has slightly more reach (and shoves opponents away further).
Up-aerial-A has slightly less ending lag.

More grabbing range, wholly smokes, MORE GRABBING RANGE, he's PSYCHIC FOR PETE'S SAKE. If Marth and Roy can have psychic grabs, why. Not. Ness.

 

[Archangel]

I agree. Mewtwo, Ness, and Zelda shoud have Marth like grabs.

 

[Stevo]

Zelda should also have a regular grab speed

 

[Archangel]

Zelda should also have a regular grab speed

She needs marth's range with Fox's grab speed IMO.

also either her aerial speed, ground speed, or both need to be picked up. She she should be able to land a few Super kicks in a row the same way falcon can imo.

 

[Zombie Bob]

Ness's Down + B should be as quick as Fox/Falco's shine, and his Dair needs less startup lag so it can be as awesome as Falco's spike.
I also wholeheartedly agree that Ness needs a better recovery, better up/down smashes, and Marth's grab range.

 

[Archangel]

Ness's Down + B should be as quick as Fox/Falco's shine, and his Dair needs less startup lag so it can be as awesome as Falco's spike.
I also wholeheartedly agree that Ness needs a better recovery, better up/down smashes, and Marth's grab range.

Ness' Down B doesn't have to be that Quick but it could surely use some lag removal. Potentially made to Jump out of like a shine. Even thought it's not an attack surely he would be able to fend off Fox and falco.

 

[ScoobyCafe]

Diligence.

Yeah, I kinda want to come back to this lol. Compiled a list of improvements we came up with in this thread for the sake of organization.

[B]-Bottom Tier Improvements-[/B]

[B]Pichu[/B]

   -Increase damage on all attacks which have recoil
   -Decrease recoil damage taken from attacks
   -Increase weight and running speed
   -Increase hitbox size of forward smash
   -Increase speed of over B
   -Slightly increase knockback of down smash

[B]Kirby[/B]

   -Increase air mobility to be a tad less than Jiggs,if not on par
   -Increase N-air damage to 12% and increase knockback
   -Increase knockback on all smash attacks
   -Slightly increase F-tilt knockback
   -Increase priority and speed on U-tilt 
   -A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Uair.
   -A hitbox slightly in front of Kirby whenever he uses Bair.
   -Remove lag on Dair, plus quicker start up
   -Either better damage or knockback for Fair; reduce start-up lag
   -No sweetspot on hammer; strong wherever it hits
   -Better placed hitboxes for F-smash and U-smash
   -Increase running speed
   -Increase speed and height of Final Cutter
   -Brawl-esque F-throw and B-throw; slightly more stun on D-throw
   -Slightly increase KO potential on U-throw
   -Shorter, less laggy dashing attack 

[B]Mewtwo[/B]

   -Significantly increase weight (Somewhere inbetween Bowser and DK)
   -Increase running speed
   -Increase grabbing range
   -Decrease amount of frames needed to dash grab
   -Harder to DI out of F-throw (more stun) and better knockback
   -Decrease lag on Disable and slightly increase range.
   -Decrease lag on Confusion
   -Slightly increase tumble time caused by Confusion
   -Projectiles reflect by Confusion does damage.
   -Increase strength on forward smash
   -Decrease ending lag on forward smash
   -Increase strength on up smash; harder to DI out of.
   -Decrease lag on down smash
   -Better placed hitboxes for all tilts
   -Slightly increase speed on all tilts
   -Increase knockback on F-tilt
   -Slightly increase initial knockback on D-tilt
   -Significantly increase priority on Nair
   -Bigger hitbox on Nair
   -Increase range on Fair
   -Increase Bair damage to 12% and increase knockback
   -Significantly increase speed on Dair and slightly bigger hitbox
   -Much better spot dodge

[B]Bowser[/B]

   -Slightly increase range on all tilts
   -Slightly increase range on U-smash
   -Slightly increase speed on Uair 
   -Increase range on standing grab and speed on grabs
   -Increase air speed
   -Slightly increase running speed
   -Slightly increase jumping height
   -Increase falling speed on down special
   -Decrease amount of frames needed to jump (preferably 6-7)
   -Decrease lag on over B, slightly increase start-up.

[B]Yoshi[/B]

   -Able to bounce slightly when using Up-B (a la Brawl)
   -Able to exit quicker out of over B on the ground
   -Able to shield cancel over B
   -Remove helpless state after using over B in the air
   -Increase jumping height on second jump
   -Increase super armor on second jump
   Able to jump out of shield
   -Slightly increase speed on rolls
   -Increase damage and knockback on dash attack
   -Increase damage and knockback on all titls
   -Increase falling speed on down B
   -Slightly increase speed on Fair
   -Egg toss could be slightly faster
   -Increase priority on Nair and Dair
   -Increase speed and range on throws (preferably on par or better than neutral B)
   -Increase K.O potential on all throws
   -Decrease or remove stun he suffers from all throws

[B]Ness[/B]

   -Better shield
   -Significantly increase range on grabs
   -Increase distance traveled on Up-B
   -Small hitbox around him when using Up-B (a la Fox)
   -Able to shield cancel PK Flash and PK Thunder
   -Increase speed and reduce lag on PK Flash
   -Able to jump out of PK Magnet
   -Increase speed and range on over B
   -Increase range and strength on jabs
   -Slightly decrease lag on f-tilt
   -Increase strength and better placed hitboxes on U-smash and D-smash
   -Slightly increase range on Fair
   -Slightly decrease lag on Uair
   -Slightly increase strength on Nair

One tier down.

Low
Link ☐
Pikachu ☐
Young Link ☐
Roy ☐
Zelda ☐
Game and Watch ☐

Low tier to go. This one should be easier, since we don't have to do anything near as drastic to improve them. Case in point...

G@W has a solid offensive game, he mostly just needs a few minor tweaks to his defense
- Bigger shield that covers his entire body when full.
- L canceling on all aerials
- slightly heavier
- Less lag on up B landing
- Less hitstun (he weighs less than jiggs but gets combo'ed like mario now)

Offensive
- D throw less DI-able (now it's like shiek's in pal)
- Up smash faster
- D tilt with less growth
- Up air with more initial knockback
- Parachute hits at slightly lower angle

G&W is practically done here, unless there's something else anyone thinks he needs.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Are people actually working on an updated Melee?

Cuz if so, I'll gladly join this discussion.

For Yoshi, just make it so he can jump OoS, and he becomes great.

 

[Archangel]

Zeal is right. Yoshi already has the best shield in the game. I think he could use a useful upB.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Worst shield, too.

His upB is fine. With the ability to jump OoS, he becomes pretty legit, imho.

 

[Archangel]

Reason I said best Shield is because he can't really be shield stabbed easily.

 

[onedayafter7]

Yoshi is pretty sound offensively, aside from the DJ problems and grabs. Just speed his grab up by a lot, let him be able to jump out of shield, and give him bona fide super armor in his 2nd jump so he doesn't get hit by a smash while in his DJ and gets knocked off the stage and dies. In addition, I think to improve his recovery, he should get his DJ back after getting hit in the air.

Definitely agree with that.
Anyone know what ever happened to Fumi? The amazing yoshi player.

 

[Stevo]

I dont think yoshi's up-b should be changed for recovery.

like Ive said from the beginning, I think his forward b should be changed to make him hop upwards more distance and to be able to grab the ledge ofter using the egg roll.

 

[Archangel]

I dont think yoshi's up-b should be changed for recovery.

like Ive said from the beginning, I think his forward b should be changed to make him hop upwards more distance and to be able to grab the ledge ofter using the egg roll.

So you are suggesting we make it more like the Jiggs roll? Except without guaranteed death?

 

[Stevo]

go try Yoshi's forward-b in the air and watch how he hops upwards when he uses it.

You will probably get what I am saying from just trying it out. Although, making him fly through the air a little quicker might help too (like Jiggly roll as you were mentioning)

this makes use of a move that is practically useless, and keeps his up-b intact, including his ledge up-b game.

 

[Archangel]

I see what you meant. Giving him a Jiggs air roll would still leave him open for kills but it's much better than nothing and like you said give that move a purpose.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Well looking at the advancements of cpus and the lower prices for such hardware:

If melee(of course it will) is still highly competitive we should move the platform to the cpu ideally in 3-6 years when mid to low end computers can comfortably run the dolphin emulator and GCs are alot more rare. Its better than using the wii and scavenging for copies of melee.

Alot of mod work could be done to rebalance the game as well.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Question, why has no one hacked melee to make an unchanging poke stadium? Because it doesn't change in training, is the training mode stage actually saved as a separate stage? Or is there just some variable that isn't triggered?

 

[Archangel]

Question, why has no one hacked melee to make an unchanging poke stadium? Because it doesn't change in training, is the training mode stage actually saved as a separate stage? Or is there just some variable that isn't triggered?

That's a good question. I think a non changing stadium is a great stage. Someone should look into it.