Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[choknater]

kataefi, kawaiibunny, kaylo...

should i change my name to kanater?

edit: wow good stuff fly. i didnt think of that. strategists up in this thread!

 

[r3d d09]

I must play some really bad Zeldas. <_<;

Marsulus goes to the same ones that i play at and he is way good. I always get matched up with him, and zelda is my weak spot, luckily I'm learning different characters that can do better against him :D

 

[momochuu]

Lol kawaii... no one plays zelda in tourney >.>

and those that do have c-stick syndrome, myself included. I might as well duck-tape my thumb to the c-stick haha!

Eh, I guess, lol. 99.9% of the Zeldas I've played just use Smashes and Dins with a few Nayru's thrown in to not be completely lame. That might be why I have the "lol just don't run into it" mentality with every Zelda matchup.

 

[choknater]

so yet another matchup that becomes 'who is better at camping?' eh? haha

i suppose theoretically that's what it would sound like, but when people talk about only their characters' strengths, it becomes a mental block for matchup analysis...

what are some weak spots in zelda's defense or ic's defense that are exploitable by the other character? i know it's hard to imagine, but i find ways for sheik to get inside metaknight all the time. it's a much slower pace than that previous example, but what are some times that an ic COULD approach, assuming that zelda was using the right moves to defend?

squall is a good option like fly said.. it can shield poke, eat rolls/dodges, and punish dtilt. blizzard as an approach is decent too....

hm, im just considering those possibilities. but i guess ic's probably SHOULD just stay away for the most part and try to outcamp/outspace.

 

[r3d d09]

Idea. Blond roll and spam grab button *what ever you use* hopefully nana or popo will grab her.

ideal to blond roll one behind her and one in front. . . take her from both sides

double post >.> lame phone internet >.>

Idea. Blond roll and spam grab button *what ever you use* hopefully nana or popo will grab her.

ideal to blond roll one behind her and one in front. . . take her from both sides

 

[Veggie123]

Eh, I guess, lol. 99.9% of the Zeldas I've played just use Smashes and Dins with a few Nayru's thrown in to not be completely lame. That might be why I have the "lol just don't run into it" mentality with every Zelda matchup.

Her smashes have more use than tilts bar dtilt, so it's not uncommon to see her throw out a lot of smash attacks. Not using aerials is kind of odd though :suess:

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't like the blond roll in general.

 

[r3d d09]

Thanks bunny for the edit. much appreciated :D

 

[choknater]

i dont get how u guys do the shield turn around desynch thing

 

[Hylian]

I don't like the blond roll in general.

Me either. I've never done it on purpose in a serious match.

 

[Firestormzero0]

i know the post is super late. BUT the biggest problem that i have with snake is whenever i try to approach him for a grab, he pivot grabs me every time. i cant get near him without being bthrowed. then nana runs past him trying to catch up to me, only to be caught and bthrowed the other way, so yeah. now im desynced with a snake in the middle and yeah that equals no bueno.

i guess its really my fault tho. i should predict these pivot grabs and punish.

 

[sasook]

Hello IC mains, the Link mains are discussing the matchup and would like for you to come contribute.


Here's the thing though.... a while back, the Links had a huge fight with the mods and moved to AiB. So... that's where our matchup thread is.

Here's the link:

http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?pid=1039362#p1039362


We realize that not everyone on SWF has an AiB account. Should this become a problem, we have thought of a solution - discuss the matchup here, on your boards. No, that does not mean take over your matchup thread and force you guys to discuss Link. That means simply create a new thread about this sole matchup. This is what we had to do for the R.O.B. boards.

Of course, if you guys have AiB accounts, then none of this applies. =)



But yeah, input greatly appreciated, please and thank you.

 

[choknater]

hm link is a pretty good and heavily underrated character imo

but ic's? ahhh ic's got this

get hobbled!

hm actually link can actually fight them well i'd imagine

 

[r3d d09]

Link can camp very well. >B,arrows, bombs. Forces us to approach. a few multi hit boxes.
I say if someone knows the match then it should be kinda even. I personally have never had experience in this. but maybe someone who knows their stuff can give input.

 

[sasook]

Thanks for the feedback guys. We'd reeeeally love it if you could come comment there. If not, it's fine and understandable. Just a request is all.

 

[choknater]

can we move on to a diff character :D

we've concluded that ic's ***** sheik

and ic's vs zelda is an enigma, but probably even with ic's 55-45 or 50-50

 

[<π]

Ics have a significant advantage against both... though far from a hard counter <.<

ICs have much better approach options than zelda and can punish a lot of blocked and whiffed attacks with grabs. If the ICs are zoning correctly with blizzard and junk they can stay very safe the whole match force zelda to act. All of her approaches are horrible espeacially against ICs. and she is horrible in the air with them.
She does punish nana hard with LK and uair and dsmash. And has a decent zoning game with fsmash, not so much with dtilt and jab which can be punished hard OOS.

Its the fact that when sheik run out of room to move she is forced to approach. mistakes in spacing can lead to grabs which mean a death... but I guess thats true for every character...
Even after splitting the climbers solo popo can chain sheik for long enough for nana to catch up and continue the chain. but that only really happens if you are spacing wrong.
There are tons of ways around dysnced approaches, IC blocks lag + sheiks speed a lot of the time nets free damage, bair beats nair, fair beats nair, nair beats nair. blizzard can always be punished with needles making it a lack luster approach option against sheik unless sheik can't more backwards. pivot grabbing wreck their squall game. because of squals start up it is far from difficult to do on reaction and is a free split for you.
Hylian, while in theory grabbing attacks with piviots work in practice it is much more difficult. there is a lot of guess work involve when trying to grab a character with attacks as fast as sheik's. sheik can empty hop, or whip on reaction to you trying to predict. I used to think similarly but after grabbing a few people out of the sky with sheik they started to adapt and mix up approaches punishing my failed grabs.

If you asked me... people experienced in the match up on both ends who don't mind camping.

IC:Sheik 65:35-60:40
IC:Zelda 65:35

 

[r3d d09]

I say we get a summary and move onto another character.
One i'm curious about is sonic since one of the best players in my state is sonic main. >.>

 

[momochuu]

Yeah, I'm gonna move on soon. This game is too fun and is keeping me busy. >_> Saturday/Sunday is when I usually write the summaries. We'll move on by the end of the day if I'm still home.

 

[r3d d09]

Good stuff Bunny :D
Off note, what happened to our stage discussion?

 

[Kataefi]

In response to <3, can I just slip in that this is one matchup where Zelda can and will try to outcamp with din's because of the damage output it does when trading with ice blocks. Blizzards I'd probably try to bait and punish with din's, shield > dtilt or do turnaround Bair OoS.

Jab, Fsmash, Dtilt are unpunishable. The first 2 being ranged, transcendant and disjointed. I think spaced Ftilt might be unpunishable, but I haven't tested that. So yeah basically she has no need to approach IC's grab range yet she can still reach them (assuming she's on the approach, which won't always be the case).

I'm just saying I think she does okay against the ICs - even or leaning slightly for the ICs. I'm not discrediting your stuff <3, but I do think you are heavily pro-sheik in everything you say and it shows, especially if your Zelda now is anything like the one you posted in our video thread =p If ICs use the trick to squall over Fsmash and Dtilt, running back and attmepting a bair or bair OoS is pretty decent.

Spoiler

edit:no more mini essay >__>

 

[momochuu]

This thread needs MOAR theory crafting. I'll start the summary now since the game is freezing on me. -_-

Diddy next, MK, then I guess I can slip in Sonic after that.

 

[Kataefi]

sorry kawaii, it does sound like I'm moaning and theory crafting too much doesn't it? I'm gonna try and condense my post because it looks too long for my liking >.<

 

[momochuu]

It's this matchup discussion in general. xD Most of it has been:

"Well if you do (impractical thing that would probably take too much thought to perform in an actual match), then I can do (another impractical thing)!

We haven't even gotten a common ground on the Zelda matchup yet. @_@

 

[Kataefi]

Cool... well I guess this matchup just doesn't really happen all that much really. We're talking about you guys next anyways in our matchup discussions so hopefully some of the top zeldas like dm or ninjalink or someone will say something better

 

[r3d d09]

this match up will be common for me. Marsulas that beast >.>
my state mains odd people. basically no one dittos. We got diddy, ROB, Sonic, Kirbz, MK, Snakesx2, luigi, zelda, shiek, IC, Peach, Ganon, etc.
I guess once i play more IC's i can pitch in more in the info xD

 

[momochuu]

Okay, Diddy now.

 

[Tin Man]

I'll drop 2 cents for now

Use the Ice block to stop the bananas.

If u do a hobling chain grab, obviously watch out for Bananas

Avoid FD for netral, go to battlefeild or yoshi's, or even lylat as the banana could fall on the platform when it hits u, and when he throws it.

Ice blocks can gimp his Up B

Desynched Ice bloack can outcamp him, forcing him to jump

If you sheild a banana, and it has been glide tossed, diddy will most likely follow with a dash attack that can be sheild grabbed.

A banana can trip both the ice climbers at once (even though it seems as if only one should trip)

Ok, discuss from here.

 

[Smoom77]

I like to use some desynced blizzards AND ice blocks. He'll think I'm gonna do another blizzard and he can throw his nana, but an ice block hits it! Lol, that's all I know.

 

[meepxzero]

banana control... All you need in the match up. nair catches bananas mad easy and jab grabs them real easily. If played perfectly diddy should never have a banana to use against you. We use the banana better than diddy just because throw banana to dashgrab is death for diddy. Diddy doesnt need to be camped in the match up because his bananas can be taken real easily.

haha I cant emphasize how easy the match up is XD because i repeat easily like a million times.

 

[choknater]

lol dang forreal? i tend to lose in this matchup

i dunno, it just seems hard for me to catch bananas esp. when something like glide toss-dash attack happens, it seems like there is not a lot of leeway to actually do something between those attacks. i suppose ic's do have a superior priority game and diddy would have a hard time getting in close to do stuff to them, esp. cuz he's afraid of getting grabbed... but ehh this is a toughie for me

ill just take meeps advice like always

 

[Hylian]

The only diddy I lose to is Gnes.

Other diddys play the match-up wayyyy wrong including ADHD (I've played him). It's evenish or in diddys favor imo.

 

[choknater]

then what should diddy be doing right?

 

[Hylian]

then what should diddy be doing right?

Not getting grabbed and baiting you with nanas.

It's hard to explain lol.

 

[meepxzero]

how can he bait bananas if he doesnt have the opportunity to ever use them on you?

ic dont play it right you dont camp against diddy. You stay on him 24/7 and any time he even brings out any bananas

you should take them away. ADHD isnt the only diddy i play hylian.

I guess its even at best.... I dont see diddy having any advantage he has to work pretty hard considering theres

double the characters to grab his bananas.

 

[Snipa4800]

Bananas go through blizzards and if either iceclimber trips the cg gets ****ed .
I seriously think its in Diddys favor , maybe its because I hate Diddy though >.>;;

 

[Attila_]

i have a fair bit of experience in this matchup, and its one i really cant stand.

1. diddy will pull out bananas. you cannot stop this. he'll run off, maybe off the stage, throw them back and grab the ledge. you might hit him a few times, but the bananas will be there now.

2. ice climbers cant powershield them, cause one of you will get hit. a proper diddy will thrown them at your feet anyway, so your shield wont help. nana will probably slip over unless you predict or have awesome reflexes.

3. dont camp, cause it gives him too much time to organise himself. even if it means getting hit by a few ice blocks, he doesnt care, cause 2 bananas and an approach will always be painful.

4. nana is a ****** in this matchup. she'll continually run into bananas if hit away, making her even more vulnerable. and if shes on the edge, she'll probably get spiked, because of diddy's recovery, its not very dangerous for him to chase her. shes screwed if desynched or hit away.

5. bananas will hit both of you, possibly in different directions. gay.

6. you can be spiked or faired out of squall fairly easily. once off the edge, its really, really difficult to get back (even with both climbers). his peanuts can also make you used a desynch squall/belay if the timing is correct.

7. bananas spoil chaingrabs. if he's holding one, he can drop it in the first frame of hitstun, potentially (and probably) ending the grab you worked so hard to get.

8. nana ruins banana tricks. cant really drop them in the air or anything, even throwing can be made difficult sometimes. that being said, i have had a couple of awesome fluke strings where continual banana throwing and attacks landed.

9. diddy's fair is actually amazing. itll beat you everytime in the air (accept from above), and autocancels perfectly (can be used retreatingly, impossible to punish with a grab if done right).

10. glide toss bananas thrown downwards are almost completely safe for him. youll probably trip, desynch and be divided by dsmash, but if for whatever reason he fails and you land the grab, you cant cg because of the banana. how troublesome.

definately in diddy's favor imo.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This weekend there was a major tourney in germany (100+ ppl) and the winners finals was a Diddy (Luigi player) vs ICs (istudy) and I learned a lot of things about the match-up by watching/talking to the players...(istudy won the tournament in the end btw).

1.) If Diddy throws a banana upwards in the air it'll free Diddy out of a grab because it drops down on either Popo or Nana causing them to slip and thus interrupting the CG. Luigi Player is the only Diddy I've seen so far doing this but throwing the bananas upwards rather than forwards is a pretty good strategy in general.

2.) Diddy can seperate the ICs fairly well ... he has a good dashgrab, nice grab setups and quick, effective throws...he can also spike Nana but he lacks a move that can take her out quickly (like Snake fsmash) if he fails to spike her.

3.) Diddy is pretty hard to grab in general ... from what I've seen the ICs can't shieldgrab his dsmash and all his other moves are either safe on shield (banana throw) or have good enough range to be unpunished (ftilt or aerials). He can also glidetoss backwards and he is generally mobile enough to keep himself at a safe distance.

4.) Diddy has some troubles doing long strings of combos because one of the ICs will always interrupt him. ICs are the hardest character for him to deal damage to because of this and KOing is always an issue. Bananas are better used to seperate them ...

5.) I don't think that blizzards are very useful ... Diddy can just throw a banana and then seperate the ICs with a grab. Aerial ics blocks are much better if you want to predict his approaches because you can double jump away / airdodge if he throws a banana.

6.) Try to use the bananas to set up one of your grabs. This is pretty hard to do though because Diddy handles them so well and his whole charater design is based on his bananas ... ICs on the other hand...not so much =P
But it's still the best way to get a grab...

I think the match-up is 5/5

 

[choknater]

great insight gheb

very good to take info from a finals match

 

[Player-1]

This weekend there was a major tourney in germany (100+ ppl) and the winners finals was a Diddy (Luigi player) vs ICs (istudy) and I learned a lot of things about the match-up by watching/talking to the players...(istudy won the tournament in the end btw).

1.) If Diddy throws a banana upwards in the air it'll free Diddy out of a grab because it drops down on either Popo or Nana causing them to slip and thus interrupting the CG. Luigi Player is the only Diddy I've seen so far doing this but throwing the bananas upwards rather than forwards is a pretty good strategy in general.

2.) Diddy can seperate the ICs fairly well ... he has a good dashgrab, nice grab setups and quick, effective throws...he can also spike Nana but he lacks a move that can take her out quickly (like Snake fsmash) if he fails to spike her.

3.) Diddy is pretty hard to grab in general ... from what I've seen the ICs can't shieldgrab his dsmash and all his other moves are either safe on shield (banana throw) or have good enough range to be unpunished (ftilt or aerials). He can also glidetoss backwards and he is generally mobile enough to keep himself at a safe distance.

4.) Diddy has some troubles doing long strings of combos because one of the ICs will always interrupt him. ICs are the hardest character for him to deal damage to because of this and KOing is always an issue. Bananas are better used to seperate them ...

5.) I don't think that blizzards are very useful ... Diddy can just throw a banana and then seperate the ICs with a grab. Aerial ics blocks are much better if you want to predict his approaches because you can double jump away / airdodge if he throws a banana.

6.) Try to use the bananas to set up one of your grabs. This is pretty hard to do though because Diddy handles them so well and his whole charater design is based on his bananas ... ICs on the other hand...not so much =P
But it's still the best way to get a grab...

I think the match-up is 5/5

I agree with everything gheb just said completely, I'll have to add on more though.