Ice Climbers Matchup Discussion REVAMPED - Week 1 Snaaaaaaaakeeeee

[choknater]

u should post drunk more often LOL

 

[Attila_]

Wow attila, you just got pwned pretty hard. You might wanna sit down.

i sat down a while ago, but the pwnage just continues...

i was explaining my views on the matchup. im pretty sure in a matchup thread that's what you're supposed to do. while lain and meep are obviously the best ics, the thread isnt only open to advice from them, but an open discussion. disregard everything i've said at your own will, but, i didn't just base it from my experience but videos i've learnt from. like:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=454NGVYPatU

unnecessarily harsh imo.

 

[DMG]

MK can Upb and beat out IC's Uair if it's not spaced really well. All that happens basically is that his few invincibility frames kick in so that you miss, and then his Upb hitbox comes out and stabs you.

 

[Hylian]

MK can Upb and beat out IC's Uair if it's not spaced really well. All that happens basically is that his few invincibility frames kick in so that you miss, and then his Upb hitbox comes out and stabs you.

MK only has one Invinvibility frame on his shuttle loop and it's the first frame it hits, 5.

IC's don't really have to space uair that well to avoid being hit by mk's shuttle loop off a platform when they are under, if that's hitting you then you are spacing very poorly.

 

[TKD]

This is what I know about the match-up.

What MK should do:
Don't get grabbed, kill nana, struggle as hard as possible, buffer struggling

Specific stuff.
- MK can KO the CPU climber easily, and solo climber can't fight MK at all.
- Air jump Dair works great for MK from the sides, where their Uair can't connect.
- Buffering struggles allows MK to break out of grabs at low % before the opponent is able to throw.
- IC can only pivot grab the Mach Tornado if the MK does it wrong, even then, they need to be synched and on the ground to do it, so MK can MT them even if he doesn't know how to do it right.
- If IC perform blizzard while synched, the move's cool-down time allows MK to dash in, upB from the ground and glide attack (the CPU climber won't avoid it).
- If IC perform desynched blizzards, MK can stay away, hover above them towards the other side, MT, and other things, whatever gets him the opening.

This is truly a very hard match-up. IC's abilities make the match-up better than 0/100 though. I heard 2/8 or 1/9, but I don't believe it yet, because I'm an optimist and haven't seen the match-up being played correctly by MK anyway. Someday people will realize it's very hard, probably when the MKs learn how to play it well.

 

[DMG]

MK only has one Invinvibility frame on his shuttle loop and it's the first frame it hits, 5.

IC's don't really have to space uair that well to avoid being hit by mk's shuttle loop off a platform when they are under, if that's hitting you then you are spacing very poorly.

Last time I looked at his frame Data, it said that MK's shuttle loop invincibility frames started Frame 5 and ended Frame 8 or so. Not trying to nit pick with you, but that's what I honestly thought.


GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP

Frame Breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32

 

[lain]

Sorry for being a little harsh, I was drunk+high.

I'm just sick and tired of people discounting Meep or I. Saying we're "not that good". And I hate when the wrong ideas and strategies get spread. It's annoying.

And lol @ ADHD's thread.

 

[Attila_]

i never discounted you at all, lain, at least i didnt mean to. ive continually said that watching you made me pick up ice climbers, which is a rather huge compliment in itself. and i hadnt ignored/overridden anything that youve said, because in this thread at least, you or meep were yet to post any opinions. the thread was open for at least a day and i just got in first. i wrote what i thought about from my experience, as everyone here is supposed to do. i never said that was awesome with the ice climbers, or that i know more than anyone else here. i just wrote my opinion, whether it be wrong or right. thats it.

 

[lain]

:] kk. No hard feelings.

 

[r3d d09]

I think I can speak for all. I'd like to have meep and lain post more and help us out. Every time i post, i wonder. "what will the power two this of this" or" what's their opinion"? Yeah i called you two power two . couldn't think of anything else.

But yet, we shouldn't just depend on you either. we should experience stuff for ourselves. but experience + some guidance from meep or lain is key. like drugs, right lain

 

[Prawn]

Specific stuff.
- MK can KO the CPU climber easily, and solo climber can't fight MK at all.

Wrong, solo popo and still dthrow chain till 50-60 percent and has a decent aerial game, its tough but one of solo popos "easier" matchups.

- Air jump Dair works great for MK from the sides, where their Uair can't connect.

what is this i dont even

- Buffering struggles allows MK to break out of grabs at low % before the opponent is able to throw.

just dthrow solo ic grab or dthrow hobble till 50 or 60, they wont get out

- IC can only pivot grab the Mach Tornado if the MK does it wrong, even then, they need to be synched and on the ground to do it, so MK can MT them even if he doesn't know how to do it right.

You don't NEED to pivot grab it, if you dont have enough time tilt your shield up and punish them with a grab if they land on the ground and an Uair if they land on a platform.

- If IC perform blizzard while synched, the move's cool-down time allows MK to dash in, upB from the ground and glide attack (the CPU climber won't avoid it).

idk about this.

- If IC perform desynched blizzards, MK can stay away, hover above them towards the other side, MT, and other things, whatever gets him the opening.

If he goes abouve you UAIR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats like a basic desync blizzard tactic.

This is truly a very hard match-up. IC's abilities make the match-up better than 0/100 though. I heard 2/8 or 1/9, but I don't believe it yet, because I'm an optimist and haven't seen the match-up being played correctly by MK anyway. Someday people will realize it's very hard, probably when the MKs learn how to play it well.

This is all wrong, its 50/50 maybe even 55/45 ics favor. Everything you said was wrong

 

[Teh Future]

lmao mexico.

Ive put in more time looking at vs MK matchup than any other character in the game. I know when I was learning the matchup I thought there was no way its even; MK can seperate ICs well, gimp nana, and he has multiple jumps to avoid grabs. It is definitely a fact that MK has some of the best followups in the game after he hits you, and ICs are screwed against ANY character after they get hit. None of this changes the fact that MK cannot safely approach you (except with glide attack, but you can punish the beggining of it). ICs upair stop anything he does in the air and all of his ground approachs can either be pivot grabbed, or dysynced blizzard > grab/upair/upsmash/whatever.

The only time Nana is dead is when she is BELOW the stage or stage level near the edge. any time else you can follow MK into the air and fair him as nana's Ice block hits him. This is surprisingly a very reliable meathod for punishing mk and i can get kills around 100% maybe less with bad di which is very possible. If nana is stuck above you with mk in between you can hit mk with upairs and if you are seperated on stage just attack mk because they allows go straight for nana rather than charging smashes and whatnot. Obviously if they start paying attention to popo you need to switch it up but usually they just think they can gimp nana with dairs at any percent but you can usually stop it.

After spending a long long time on this matchup its pretty obvious that its 50/50. Its wierd because I used to think its horrible and thought lain and meep were crazy lol. I dont think being good makes whatever your saying about matchups to be true, but I think the better you get you start to see the things they are saying definitely make sense (except meep on diddy lolololololol). But really I dont know maybe meep is just better vs diddy than everyone else and understands the matchup better. Maybe as everyone else progresses in the matchup we will start to agree with him, because thats definitely how it turned out that way for me with vs mk.

 

[.AC.]

lmao mexico.

Ive put in more time looking at vs MK matchup than any other character in the game. I know when I was learning the matchup I thought there was no way its even; MK can seperate ICs well, gimp nana, and he has multiple jumps to avoid grabs. It is definitely a fact that MK has some of the best followups in the game after he hits you, and ICs are screwed against ANY character after they get hit. None of this changes the fact that MK cannot safely approach you (except with glide attack, but you can punish the beggining of it). ICs upair stop anything he does in the air and all of his ground approachs can either be pivot grabbed, or dysynced blizzard > grab/upair/upsmash/whatever.

The only time Nana is dead is when she is BELOW the stage or stage level near the edge. any time else you can follow MK into the air and fair him as nana's Ice block hits him. This is surprisingly a very reliable meathod for punishing mk and i can get kills around 100% maybe less with bad di which is very possible. If nana is stuck above you with mk in between you can hit mk with upairs and if you are seperated on stage just attack mk because they allows go straight for nana rather than charging smashes and whatnot. Obviously if they start paying attention to popo you need to switch it up but usually they just think they can gimp nana with dairs at any percent but you can usually stop it.

After spending a long long time on this matchup its pretty obvious that its 50/50. Its wierd because I used to think its horrible and thought lain and meep were crazy lol. I dont think being good makes whatever your saying about matchups to be true, but I think the better you get you start to see the things they are saying definitely make sense (except meep on diddy lolololololol). But really I dont know maybe meep is just better vs diddy than everyone else and understands the matchup better. Maybe as everyone else progresses in the matchup we will start to agree with him, because thats definitely how it turned out that way for me with vs mk.

you are mad dumb.

 

[Teh Future]

Also I think we should do matchups depending on how tough they are for ICs. Meaning lets do characters like Peach, Wario, Marth, ect before someone like Falolco or D3

Been pretty much doing that, but Olimar was kinda 0_o and Peach isn't extactly top tier, but I still think we need to pay attention to her because se has a good matchup vs ICs.

 

[Hylian]

Last time I looked at his frame Data, it said that MK's shuttle loop invincibility frames started Frame 5 and ended Frame 8 or so. Not trying to nit pick with you, but that's what I honestly thought.


GROUNDED SHUTTLE LOOP

Frame Breakdown:
1-7 startup
5-8 invincibility frames
8-13 strong hitbox out
14-21
22-31 weak hitbox out

frame summary:
Hits on frame: 8
IASA frame: 32

Hmmm I need to test that again. I swear it was only frame 5 :/.

Sorry for being a little harsh, I was drunk+high.

I'm just sick and tired of people discounting Meep or I. Saying we're "not that good". And I hate when the wrong ideas and strategies get spread. It's annoying.

And lol @ ADHD's thread.

Who is saying you two are "not that good?"

I haven't really heard it lol.

 

[Prawn]

Next matchup should be Wario or Marth,

marth ISNT that hard of a matchup in my opinion, but the only "good" marth I've faced is Darc and that was a long time ago.

 

[meepxzero]

adhd got a lot better vs ic. I still think its even. The things he does in the match up now are just frame advantage stuff. Like he will stand on the ledge and wait for u to dash grab and just grab you outta it because he has a small frame advantage against you. I do this against mks that like to dashgrab and fthrow real quick its effective strat not many people use. If he does that stuff just desynch and approach then he has to be forced to shield or run away. If diddy's most effective strat is to bthrow to spike ic, then thats just a gimmick diddy has over us not an advantage.

 

[r3d d09]

true that meep, and people that just frame advantage the whole game is lame >.>

 

[Teh Future]

true that meep, and people that just frame advantage the whole game is lame >.>

lmao my eyes hurt after reading that/

But stay on topic gais, even if we have discussed the mk matchup a lot it definitely keeps progressing.

Things I am working on currently are mostly when desyncing is safe. For instance if you do it when mk is dair camping and he sees you doing it he can tornado the top of you Obivously a problem with this is that it generally means you have to desync farther away, but that makes it less likely to do much w/ the blizzards.

 

[r3d d09]

For me I use the pivot, or the SND, or what ever it is in an MK match, if the SND fails, a f mash is following up the mistake. like today, i messed up on it. but instead both nana and popo fmashing. one did a down smash and other did a fsmash, both connected for a ko, i was pleased xD

EDIT, about the frame advantage comment, i like taking risks. Isn't mind games and other stuff to predict how a player will react and see a "routine" I take advantage of that and punish with a punishable move ^.^

 

[momochuu]

true that meep, and people that just frame advantage the whole game is lame >.>

I...think that's how fighting games work.

 

[r3d d09]

Meh, what do you novices know. jk jk. and there was a hint of sarcasm in that comment? coming from a competitive player and what. I know how the world works xD

 

[choknater]

blizzard is so ****

 

[r3d d09]

**** is just **** as well. keep that in mind as well. I like to play on maps with plats so i can IB at different levels so his air approach isn't as good. but too many plats is just bad news. I prefer smashville even though some say that SV is MK territory.

 

[choknater]

i think that ic's should definitely be on smashville. i mean, mk is good on every stage, but the extra platform adding to the flatness just adds to ic's ability there. it's not like the platform adds camping area to ic's, IMO ic's uses the platform better than mk

 

[l!nk_aut]

smashville is not good against mk. srsly... mk can platform camp you sooo well on this stage. i´d prefer fd since on fd mk has no major advantages.

so we all know mk can serperate us and **** us well and we can him **** with grabs.
he can daircamp we can upair. he can nadospam we can pivotgrab the nadospam.

so its pretty much 50:50 ^^

 

[lain]

I'm pretty sure everyone would prefer FD. Point is that it would get auto-banned.

Guys, Smashville is a good stage for us. I know the camping is gay and hard, but the point is for us to be okay with it because MK will have to approach eventually as long as you have the lead.

Pick smashville.

 

[DMG]

Smashville is easily better than BF or something like YI. You're ALWAYS gonna have that potential problem of MK camping you, so you might as well just accept that and try to get a stage where you can at least have a decent chance at a fair fight (Like Lain is trying to point out to you guys).

If they DON'T camp, Smashville is still better than BF/other stages for IC's.

 

[swordgard]

Just would like to point out some random fact that co18 said to me a little while ago which i never noticed before.


BF is actually larger than SV O.o

 

[r3d d09]

It doesn't seem like it Sword, but i could understand how it is. ha. GG

 

[swordgard]

This is what I know about the match-up.

What MK should do:
Don't get grabbed, kill nana, struggle as hard as possible, buffer struggling

Specific stuff.
- MK can KO the CPU climber easily, and solo climber can't fight MK at all.
- Air jump Dair works great for MK from the sides, where their Uair can't connect.
- Buffering struggles allows MK to break out of grabs at low % before the opponent is able to throw.
- IC can only pivot grab the Mach Tornado if the MK does it wrong, even then, they need to be synched and on the ground to do it, so MK can MT them even if he doesn't know how to do it right.
- If IC perform blizzard while synched, the move's cool-down time allows MK to dash in, upB from the ground and glide attack (the CPU climber won't avoid it).
- If IC perform desynched blizzards, MK can stay away, hover above them towards the other side, MT, and other things, whatever gets him the opening.

This is truly a very hard match-up. IC's abilities make the match-up better than 0/100 though. I heard 2/8 or 1/9, but I don't believe it yet, because I'm an optimist and haven't seen the match-up being played correctly by MK anyway. Someday people will realize it's very hard, probably when the MKs learn how to play it well.

Your mad funny.


Btw, just pointing out, aproperly spaced nado can only be countered by fsmash if done on reaction, blizz is too slow, too high for pivot grab, upsmash is kinda hard to land during the nado, you can still shield/tilt up though.

 

[Prawn]

Your mad funny.


Btw, just pointing out, aproperly spaced nado can only be countered by fsmash if done on reaction, blizz is too slow, too high for pivot grab, upsmash is kinda hard to land during the nado, you can still shield/tilt up though.

Haha I fsmash nados ALL the time, ask Lain, I'm pretty sure he saw me do it a few times.

I like it because it guarantees damage, when they can retreat from a grab/punishment.
It really isn't that hard to time, about as hard or a little easier than perfect shielding

 

[r3d d09]

I at times can land Fsmash when i remember to do so >.>

 

[Kataefi]

I know you guys didn't discuss Zelda too long ago but we're talking about the ICs right now Would be great if you could all contribute in this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=8246647#post8246647

 

[r3d d09]

So... I got to play this matchup against the best or 2nd best player in my state >.> lame mk ha.

Anyways. what i found was if I squal correctly and not make it hit with the last ... turn i guess you can call it. ha. not causing knockback. I could usually land a fsmash on him.

Another thing is if i jab and spam my grab button. nana sometimes will grab instead of jab on the back swing. then of course, that will lead to some alts and what not.

I will test the whole jab grab out. it's kind like peaches grab out of a jab thing. But it might have to have percise buffer grab or something.


EDIT:
I can't wait for the discussion of sonic, ROB, PT, and a few others. >.> Lame Utah smashers. haha

 

[Teh Future]

Your mad funny.


Btw, just pointing out, aproperly spaced nado can only be countered by fsmash if done on reaction, blizz is too slow, too high for pivot grab, upsmash is kinda hard to land during the nado, you can still shield/tilt up though.

I disagree. I think PG is the best punishment because it will lead to one less stock. fsmash is easy to bait and punish the end lag. PG is much harder to bait safely because you have to tornado towards them for them to attempt it, which can end up getting you grabbed if you dont space it perfectly.

I think shielding is better than fsmash if they are too high to pivot grab. They will generally have to run away near the end and that leads to upairs through platforms or a safe desync.

If they dont end up on a platform pay attention to what they do after the tornado, if you run towards them and try to grab 9/10 they will be able to spotdodge it and hit you. If they do this it makes for an easy grab because you can just wait for the spotdodge and grab them in the end lag.

 

[T3h Albino]

I got tore out the frame in this matchup today. I got gimped somewhat early and he just seemed to easily get in my space and ended up splitting nana and popo up =/. I need to learn how to keep that dumb bat thing out <__<

 

[r3d d09]

I think we should talk about stage striking and ban for each character.
in my state we have three starters.
SV, BF,FD. I personally would strike BF first.

I think i would do the same with the 5 maps. I'd rather have YI over BF >.>

 

[Teh Future]

As long as I end up on one of the four neutrals I don't really care too much for this matchup

Albino thats what happens to everyone when they start playing the matchup. As you get more expierence you learn how to deal with the pressure better, and if they play too agressively they justend up getting grabbed.

 

[r3d d09]

True that, it's just like every other match up. some are easier than others. but with experience of the matchup, comes knowledge... don't you hate it when people say stuff like that