How would the meta-game change?

[ElDominio]

He beats Ally's Snake in winners, has a huge lead in losers, gets comboed by his MK and then just gives up. It sounds to me like he has a mental block against top level MKs. Same thing happens when he gets comboed by other top level MKs and it happened in his match against Seibrik

Weren't you leaving?

Why are you saying comboed?

 

[mikeHAZE]

lmao jebus

 

[Kewkky]

why are you speaking for me lol

Obviously he knows you better than you know yourself.

Too bad no one ever learns when things like this happen, they just keep on saying what they believe is true even if the guy's right there and says "no it's not".

EDIT: You edited your post, but I have history in mine.

 

[Atomsk_92]

ADHD would be the new M2K

OH MY GOD...


are you saying....


THAT I MANAGED TO BEAT THE NEW M2K?

LOLZ OMGZ


This is another personal stab that's gonna get me infracted, but you seem really dumb when it comes to a lot of things about this game Jebus.

 

[ElDominio]

OH MY GOD...


are you saying....


THAT I MANAGED TO BEAT THE NEW M2K?

LOLZ OMGZ


This is another personal stab that's gonna get me infracted, but you seem really dumb when it comes to a lot of things about this game Jebus.

It's Jebus...... Why would that get you infracted if you're doing humanity a favor XD

 

[SaveMeJebus]

OH MY GOD...


are you saying....


THAT I MANAGED TO BEAT THE NEW M2K?

LOLZ OMGZ


This is another personal stab that's gonna get me infracted, but you seem really dumb when it comes to a lot of things about this game Jebus.

I don't remember hearing or seeing anything about you beating him with any character other than MK in tournament since he started placing high. I could be wrong though

 

[slikvik]

The MU is even, I heard. Wario can do as much **** to D3 as he can to Wario. And the amount of grab setups in entirely dependent on the stage.

looooooooooool

 

[-LzR-]

^^sup slikvik, what seems to be the problem?

 

[Shockna]

If this has been discussed already someone link me and I'm sorry.

What would happen to LGL if MK was banned?

I imagine it would be changed somewhat, but not removed. MK might be the best planker, but he isn't the only one.

 

[M@v]

G&W is a really, REALLY good planker. And Planking is the only thing that makes pit so-so in the USA metagame.

 

[War Anvil]

$0.02 deposited

Sonic could very well stand more of a chance. Who knows?

 

[Kuro~]

G&W is a really, REALLY good planker. And Planking is the only thing that makes pit so-so in the USA metagame.

*sigh* i hate this mentality.

Ppl need to stop saying that cuz...

the 3 best performing pits barely abuse planking compared to how important ppl put it into his character worth.

It's a great option to have in many mu but it isn't what makes the character.

 

[WindMajor]

Without Metaknight in the picture, I think TL mains will get a noticeable bump in tiers and in results.

 

[Judo777]

He beats Ally's Snake in winners, has a huge lead in losers, gets comboed by his MK and then just gives up. It sounds to me like he has a mental block against top level MKs. Same thing happens when he gets comboed by other top level MKs and it happened in his match against Seibrik

Yea its gotta be a mental block. Its definitely not that MK is a better character than Snake. That's not it. I also have a mental block against IC's with Sheik.

 

[iFudge]

Yea its gotta be a mental block. Its definitely not that MK is a better character than Snake. That's not it. I also have a mental block against IC's with Sheik.

mk is a better char then sonic, but speed beat seibrik

 

[Judo777]

mk is a better char then sonic, but speed beat seibrik

That is a completely unrelated point. I'm not saying that worse characters can't beat better characters. I'm saying worse characters will usually lose better characters given the same amount of skill (like ADHD vs top level MK's)

 

[ADHD]

Atmosk u r just a scrub give it up and suck my ppenor.

 

[PEACE7]

Marth won't go higher than 3rd or 4th if mk is banned IMO

 

[infiniteV115]

If he goes 3rd, he'll have gone higher than 4th
Unless you're saying he'll never reach 3rd
In which case, mentioning that he won't go higher than 3rd was redundant.

Also, I disagree. With MK gone, I could see Marth getting first or second.
Marth's only significant flaw is his offstage vulnerability. Diddy, Falco and Snake can't really take advantage of that XD
Ok yeah maybe his weight as well, but even when taking THAT into consideration he still beats Snake.
And it's not like Dedede is going to hold Marth down. He doesn't really hold Snake down.
And Dedede sux.

I could see a 3-way tie between Marth, Snake and Falco for 1st.

 

[Steam]

If MK was banned... Marth might start placing like the 5th best character.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Everything I've read so far has been about the singles metagame. What do you guys think will happen with teams?

 

[ElDominio]

Everything I've read so far has been about the singles metagame. What do you guys think will happen with teams?

It would probably a lot more varied and probably much more exciting.

More healers like those Ness and Lucas teams
More Lucario and Anubis

maybe more Sonic and some hard hitters

 

[Arcansi]

G&W is a really, REALLY good planker. And Planking is the only thing that makes pit so-so in the USA metagame.

And implies that you think pit being so-so in the USA metagame is on the same 'side' as G&W being an amazing planker.

Of course, with a little bit of knowledge, we realize this isn't true.

UNLESS, you think G&W being able to plank is a 'good' thing (not sure how to word this so you understand 100%, but I hope you do).

What're you trying to say here? Nothing? Because that's really all I can get out of it. No offence intended.

@The LGL Discussion: What argument is there for keeping it in the game if MK is removed?

That one matchup? I call knee-jerk reaction and blanket solution.

Proof being, well it was created fast and without testing and covers characters that can't even use planking at all.

 

[Shockna]

@The LGL Discussion: What argument is there for keeping it in the game if MK is removed?

That one matchup? I call knee-jerk reaction and blanket solution.

Proof being, well it was created fast and without testing and covers characters that can't even use planking at all.

Certainly is an argument that doesn't lack merit. Perhaps a MK-less metagame could actually yield some results proving it either useful or unnecessary? I imagine that's what would happen.

 

[Arcansi]

Certainly is an argument that doesn't lack merit. Perhaps a MK-less metagame could actually yield some results proving it either useful or unnecessary? I imagine that's what would happen.

We have this.

It's matches without MK in them.

I understand where your coming from, but I want to foster discussion here, no offence.

 

[Shockna]

We have this.

It's matches without MK in them.

I understand where your coming from, but I want to foster discussion here, no offence.

We're trying to do the same thing then, I'm just -terrible- at wording these things I suppose XD

 

[Doc King]

If he goes 3rd, he'll have gone higher than 4th
Unless you're saying he'll never reach 3rd
In which case, mentioning that he won't go higher than 3rd was redundant.

Also, I disagree. With MK gone, I could see Marth getting first or second.
Marth's only significant flaw is his offstage vulnerability. Diddy, Falco and Snake can't really take advantage of that XD
Ok yeah maybe his weight as well, but even when taking THAT into consideration he still beats Snake.
And it's not like Dedede is going to hold Marth down. He doesn't really hold Snake down.
And Dedede sux.

I could see a 3-way tie between Marth, Snake and Falco for 1st.

While King Dedede doesn't hold Snake down like he does with DK, it doesn't mean that he doesn't do good against Snake.

For what you said about Marth, King Dedede actually exploits a lot of Marth's weaknesses like the lack of projectiles (Has to play a close game), predictable and pretty punishable recovery, Marth's rco lag, and Marth being a middle weight.

The combination of these will make it hard for Marth to compete with King Dedede if the King Dedede player is good. Also, King Dedede doesn't suck, he's a high tier.

However, I can see Marth rising above Falco because Marth only has one bad matchup while Falco has 2.

 

[C.J.]

While King Dedede doesn't hold Snake down like he does with DK, it doesn't mean that he doesn't do good against Snake.

For what you said about Marth, King Dedede actually exploits a lot of Marth's weaknesses like the lack of projectiles (Has to play a close game), predictable and pretty punishable recovery, Marth's rco lag, and Marth being a middle weight.

The combination of these will make it hard for Marth to compete with King Dedede if the King Dedede player is good. Also, King Dedede doesn't suck, he's a high tier.

However, I can see Marth rising above Falco because Marth only has one bad matchup while Falco has 2.

Snake/DDD is even

Quit bringing up RCO ALL THE TIME. It's not anywhere near as important as you think it is.

Waddle is not a threatening projectile where you'll get punished for using it more often that you actually succeed in hitting with it.

 

[Doc King]

Snake/DDD is even

Quit bringing up RCO ALL THE TIME. It's not anywhere near as important as you think it is.

Waddle is not a threatening projectile where you'll get punished for using it more often that you actually succeed in hitting with it.

Snake vs. Dedede is like 40:60. King Dedede exploits a lot of Snakes weaknesses like predictable and punishable recovery, chain throws, and poor air game.

RCO Lag imo seems to be a major part of King Dedede's metagame because of his down throw being a good way to punish rco lag along with the down air. For Marth's situation, rco lag is a major part of the matchup as Marth has to get rco lag for the most part unlike Peach and Luigi. And Marth just being able to get chain thrown and having the 2nd most laggiest RCO Lag (1st being Wolf's up b) makes RCO Lag a part of the matchup.

You are right though about Waddle not being so great of a projectile. Although it can put a little pressure on Marth, but it's not a big thing to mention.

 

[Judo777]

Snake/DDD is even

Quit bringing up RCO ALL THE TIME. It's not anywhere near as important as you think it is.

Waddle is not a threatening projectile where you'll get punished for using it more often that you actually succeed in hitting with it.

Snake D3 is close to even, I think D3 might have a very slight edge but its not as bad as people might at first think.

RCO lag IS a big deal. It's a very big deal. After marth gets the ledge it means he is either gonna do a ledge get up option or he is going to jump and do an aerial while landing, both of these are very punishable. I kill Marth's all day for RCO lag. It doesn't mean he HAS to experience the 30 frames of lag but it does mean that he has to do something to prevent it because 30 frames is easily enough to react and punish. Being predictable is bad in smash if your name isn't MK or Falco.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

the meta game changes for the better

/thread

 

[C.J.]

Snake D3 is close to even, I think D3 might have a very slight edge but its not as bad as people might at first think.

RCO lag IS a big deal. It's a very big deal. After marth gets the ledge it means he is either gonna do a ledge get up option or he is going to jump and do an aerial while landing, both of these are very punishable. I kill Marth's all day for RCO lag. It doesn't mean he HAS to experience the 30 frames of lag but it does mean that he has to do something to prevent it because 30 frames is easily enough to react and punish. Being predictable is bad in smash if your name isn't MK or Falco.

IIRC Coney says DDD loses vs Snake if anything. I view it as straight even, but w/e.

You're sheik. You require far less commitment than DDD. I hate having RCO more vs Sheik than every other character (sans MK). I don't mind dealing w/ it at all vs DDD (at least, not anymore than I already hate being on the ledge vs him). Also, sheik is mobile. DDD isn't.

And I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I'm saying it's not a game changing thing in regards to Marth/DDD.

 

[Doc King]

IIRC Coney says DDD loses vs Snake if anything. I view it as straight even, but w/e.

You're sheik. You require far less commitment than DDD. I hate having RCO more vs Sheik than every other character (sans MK). I don't mind dealing w/ it at all vs DDD (at least, not anymore than I already hate being on the ledge vs him). Also, sheik is mobile. DDD isn't.

And I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I'm saying it's not a game changing thing in regards to Marth/DDD.

Dude, don't you realize that King Dedede has the best RCO Lag punish in the game? King Dedede has 2 great options, The Down Throw and The Down Air. Also you don't have to be too fast to punish RCO. King Dedede is an aerial beast, which can make it hard for Marth when he's trying to get back up the stage.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Dude stop talking about rco lag like it's the only thing that matters in a match up

 

[Doc King]

Dude stop talking about rco lag like it's the only thing that matters in a match up

While it's not the only thing that matters, it's an important part of the matchup due to Marth's conditions with it. I'm just using this as a way to prove that this matchup is in D3's favor.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's not only how D3 can punish Marth's RCO lag, but also how he can punish Marth trying to avoid the RCO lag.
Pretty simple, and it is a really important part of the match-up, considering one grab on Marth puts him in an awkward position off-stage where he'll have to up-b to the ledge.

 

[Judo777]

IIRC Coney says DDD loses vs Snake if anything. I view it as straight even, but w/e.

You're sheik. You require far less commitment than DDD. I hate having RCO more vs Sheik than every other character (sans MK). I don't mind dealing w/ it at all vs DDD (at least, not anymore than I already hate being on the ledge vs him). Also, sheik is mobile. DDD isn't.

And I'm not saying it's not a big deal. I'm saying it's not a game changing thing in regards to Marth/DDD.

I mean it might be even at the highest level but not everyone plays at that level.

D3 is just as good at punishing Marth as Sheik is (maybe even better) that's a hefty reason why Marth's hate the MU so much. His grab range makes up for his lack of mobility easily. Stand at the ledge wait for marth do do something, shield, grab. Not to mention since D3's grab range is ******** you might grab him before he hits the ground netting you the same exact situation.

And I think its semantics but it might not be a humongous part of the MU but its a decently sized part of the MU (more so than alot of specific scenarios) and it can certainly be game changing.

 

[infiniteV115]

While King Dedede doesn't hold Snake down like he does with DK, it doesn't mean that he doesn't do good against Snake.

For what you said about Marth, King Dedede actually exploits a lot of Marth's weaknesses like the lack of projectiles (Has to play a close game), predictable and pretty punishable recovery, Marth's rco lag, and Marth being a middle weight.

The combination of these will make it hard for Marth to compete with King Dedede if the King Dedede player is good. Also, King Dedede doesn't suck, he's a high tier.

However, I can see Marth rising above Falco because Marth only has one bad matchup while Falco has 2.

I know Dedede beats Marth. I know Dedede beats Snake.
Do you think I would bother to say that they're not going to be held down by Dedede if he didn't beat them? -.-

My point is that even with MK gone, it's not like Dedede is going to become extremely popular. He still gets beaten solidly by a lot of the high and top tiers.
Furthermore, Dedede isn't even really a counter to Marth and Snake. He has a slight advantage on both (maybe even with Snake), and that can easily be mitigated by simply playing a little bit better than the opponent.
Not a terrible MU + not a ****load of Dededes = Marth and Snake don't get held down.

 

[-LzR-]

DDD hasn't really done that much. He has progressively gotten worse as the metagame evolved. He is too reliant on his grab and bair Imo.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

inb4anotherrcopostbydocking