Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[kupo15]

Didn't do terribly for my first melee tourney. Tied for 13 out of 30. (I think you look at it like that?)

*shrugs*

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11170774#post11170774

Some personal triumphs. I landed an utilt on Eggm, and broke someone else's shield.

 

[Oracle]

Why does no one do the tipman anymore? IMO it's one of ganon's best low percent edgeguards and his best option for hitting spacies who try to sweetspot with side B.

 

[-ACE-]

I still use it a lot. It's situational and match-up dependent, but yes, still one of Ganon's best overall edgeguarding options.

 

[spider_sense]

Why does no one do the tipman anymore? IMO it's one of ganon's best low percent edgeguards and his best option for hitting spacies who try to sweetspot with side B.

I still use it a lot. It's situational and match-up dependent, but yes, still one of Ganon's best overall edgeguarding options.

I've actually been doing it quite alot, I even have an incoming vid of me doing it against Samus. I remember Tipman saying that we all need to do it more, and I can see why.

 

[DippnDots]

basically you can just rinse and repeat the uair until they give up or give you a dair / bair. 22good

 

[Divinokage]

Tipman to backair or downair is so ****ing good lol.

 

[Linguini]

I actually usually do the opposite, mad people know how to meteor cancel these days so dairing first and following it up with a tipper throws the opponent off a lot while allowing me to get the perfect spacing. BTW there's a difference between the uair spike and the tipman spike. Tommy's technique is frame pefect and spikes with an extremely disgusting angle; it's quite hard to master.

I use the uair probably more than any other ganon, I know you like the bair kage haha.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah, my favorite thing to do with ganon is the runoff tipman to spacies on battlefield or dreamland. sends them under the cliff/honeycomb (pineapple/whatever you wanna call the dreamland bottom).

if its the true tipman, they can't tech. i also call it the ganon shine. so good.

 

[spider_sense]

I think I found two pretty useful things practicing my techs (but you have to be good with using reverse wavelands off the ledge) Well basically all you have to do is reverse waveland followed with a uair. From my understanding it covers more range from below and you can quickly come back up and grab the ledge, it's deadly for Falco and Marth. (I think. lol haven't tried this out yet) Anyways, you can also reverse waveland back onto the ledge with a d-angled tilt to cover to option of spacies sweet spotting with side-b or up-b. Dunno guys, someone try this out and let me know how it works out for them.

Another thing I want you guys to try out is rolling to one of the edges of Battlefield while holding the control stick back. Come down with an aerial of your choice (preferably uair) then use the ledge cancel you get to use another uair (since we're on the topic on Tipman reverse uair) and I think rolling to the very edge gives Ganon the utmost guaranteed setup for Tipman spike. Dunno, but it seems that way for me. Guini definitely could give up better tips since I've seen him eliminate options with bairs to uairs for edgeguards.

 

[-ACE-]

I think I found two pretty useful things practicing my techs (but you have to be good with using reverse wavelands off the ledge) Well basically all you have to do is reverse waveland followed with a uair. From my understanding it covers more range from below and you can quickly come back up and grab the ledge, it's deadly for Falco and Marth. (I think. lol haven't tried this out yet) Anyways, you can also reverse waveland back onto the ledge with a d-angled tilt to cover to option of spacies sweet spotting with side-b or up-b. Dunno guys, someone try this out and let me know how it works out for them.

You only get to regrab the ledge if you hit your opponent with the uair, right?

Another thing I want you guys to try out is rolling to one of the edges of Battlefield while holding the control stick back. Come down with an aerial of your choice (preferably uair) then use the ledge cancel you get to use another uair (since we're on the topic on Tipman reverse uair) and I think rolling to the very edge gives Ganon the utmost guaranteed setup for Tipman spike. Dunno, but it seems that way for me. Guini definitely could give up better tips since I've seen him eliminate options with bairs to uairs for edgeguards.

You can also triple uair/bair or any combination of these 2 aerials and make it back to the edge (after the bair, edge cancel bair, dj bair). If you fast enough you can even land on stage.

 

[Linguini]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that jason. Fair to falling uair or bair to falling uair can be used when edgeguarding to throw off your opponents recovery.

I'll try to give an example of when this is useful. Let's say a marth is recovering and still has his double jump, you jump out with a full jump bair, bait his double jump and just proceed to do your falling uair,which if spaced well, will **** his jump. It's obviously situational, and you have to start from up top(meaning no fastfalling) unless your feeling risky. It's a pretty nice mixup that ive been messing around with lately and it's worth exploring.

Ganon still has a lot of untapped potential. I wish I had a cube, tv, and more time to play.....

 

[spider_sense]

You only get to regrab the ledge if you hit your opponent with the uair, right?

Nah, even if you miss you still get the opportunity to grab the ledge, they just have to option of actually making it back. Which given Ganon's, Marth's and C. Falcon's recovery isn't very far, so you could always ledge hop to punish or whatever.


You can also triple uair/bair or any combination of these 2 aerials and make it back to the edge (after the bair, edge cancel bair, dj bair). If you fast enough you can even land on stage.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that jason. Fair to falling uair or bair to falling uair can be used when edgeguarding to throw off your opponents recovery.

I'll try to give an example of when this is useful. Let's say a marth is recovering and still has his double jump, you jump out with a full jump bair, bait his double jump and just proceed to do your falling uair,which if spaced well, will **** his jump. It's obviously situational, and you have to start from up top(meaning no fastfalling) unless your feeling risky. It's a pretty nice mixup that ive been messing around with lately and it's worth exploring.

Ganon still has a lot of untapped potential. I wish I had a cube, tv, and more time to play.....

Yeah pretty efficient stuff there as per usual Emilio. Works well for Falcons and Ganons.

 

[spider_sense]

You only get to regrab the ledge if you hit your opponent with the uair, right?



You can also triple uair/bair or any combination of these 2 aerials and make it back to the edge (after the bair, edge cancel bair, dj bair). If you fast enough you can even land on stage.

Nah, even if you miss you still get the opportunity to grab the ledge, they just have to option of actually making it back. Which given Ganon's, Marth's and C. Falcon's recovery isn't very far, so you could always ledge hop to punish or whatever. And yeah those coming down aerials are pretty beast. I just think uair is better, since it's safer and faster and just as efficient.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that jason. Fair to falling uair or bair to falling uair can be used when edgeguarding to throw off your opponents recovery.

I'll try to give an example of when this is useful. Let's say a marth is recovering and still has his double jump, you jump out with a full jump bair, bait his double jump and just proceed to do your falling uair,which if spaced well, will **** his jump. It's obviously situational, and you have to start from up top(meaning no fastfalling) unless your feeling risky. It's a pretty nice mixup that ive been messing around with lately and it's worth exploring.

Ganon still has a lot of untapped potential. I wish I had a cube, tv, and more time to play.....

Yeah pretty efficient stuff there as per usual Emilio. Works well for Falcons and Ganons.

 

[kupo15]

I have some concepts on my mind that I would love to discuss.

Lately I feel that I've been using uthrow in more situations than the dthrow and that Dthrow jab is not the best thing to do in most cases because you lose your positional adv since they are outside your reach. If you are by the edge than great. Get them off the stage.

I only think that dthrow should be reserved for are few cases instead of the first thing we think about (when fighting fastfallers only) because if you are like in the middle of FD or a situation where there is a lot of room behind you, they can just DI back and tech away and you really can't catch up to hit them again. Or if you are on a platform and your back is at the edge, a uthrow will keep them on the platform but a dthrow won't. If you are in a position where there is limited ground behind you or if your facing the edge of a platform, I would use dthrow because that will lead to easy tech chases and if they DI in front of you, you can CG them and force a DI back.

Also, something I think Ganon's should look for is the Down B spike setup whenever you are tech chasing. If you are near a platform that is near the ledge or edge of the stage, I think we should primarily be ready to Dair them when they roll towards the edge because that will combo into a Down B spike and they are dead. Much more effective than Dair to Fair. If they tech away from the stage, you can get them with the fair. If you are on a platform and they tech away, do another dthrow and force them to tech towards the edge.

___________

TR;DL - I feel that Ganon is in the best position when we put the enemies in front of him. You have the Fair and the Down b if they tech away and you have everything else if they roll behind. I think we should reserve the dthrow for times when we know they can't DI and tech out of reach.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

all things can be read. Nothing is actually out of reach for ganon, I don't think, if we read it. However, we have to make that decision as soon as we throw, and it becomes the only option we cover. To cover multiple options, I believe throw choice is critical, as you stated in the plaform options, and should certainly be scrutinized. But I'm just thinking that, if predicted, all rolls from uthrow or dthrow can be chased.

the problem usually with uthrow is the opponent jumping out before they hit the ground. That's why most ganons just dtrow; to force the techchase scenario rather than deal with the possibility of a jumpout.

 

[kupo15]

Yes, IF you predict the dthrow roll you can cover it but I think that ganon should be focusing on being able to cover all the options whenever possible which is why I'm experimenting with uthrow more for FFers. I don't think FFs can jump out of the uthrow until high %, You can combo Uthrow into dB at 90ish%. At those % I think that Dthrow gives you enough time to position yourself to cover all tech chasing options.

To add to what I said earlier, a smarter way to tech chase in those cases near the ledge and they tech away, chasing with a fair is pointless even when you connect. You are only losing the ground you gained by hitting them across the stage. Something I like to do is follow up with a side b. It will send them back towards the ledge into yet another easy tech chase. This way you can fake dash as to predict them rolling towards the edge and come cover the back with side b. If they do tech towards the edge, you can Dair then dB spike. Much more effective than the fair.

Another idea when near the ledge instead of Dair to Fair is Dair to the first hit of the Dsmash. Its like doc's bair and it turns them backwards. Easy set up for tipman

Another thing I notice is that I think a lot of ppl underestimate the power of grounded attacks. I'm experimenting with using ground attacks over air when I can. Ex. If they tech behind you, instead of Bairing, do a turnaround dtilt or dsmash. The dsmash is a great move and will not only give you a lot of damage but you can combo from it. You can Double dsmash on FFers and Dsmash to Usmash. I think even techchasing with a fsmash can be more damaging than with a fair. I feel that comboing from ground attacks can give you better positioning than air attacks especially at low %s because you are too exposed. I even opt for a usmash or uFtilt to hit ppl on platforms sometimes.

Another great combo to look for is stomp>both hits of usmash= 60% from two moves. Talk about getting wrecked!
Landing smashes can be extremely devastating to an opponents self confidence as well.

Oh and FYI, if you get lucky enough, Peach at 15% on YS, Dair through the Platform to both Usmash hits KOs her (if not DIed I think).

 

[Bl@ckChris]

fsmash is weird to techchase with. Especially since with good DI they'll go like....up. But I do need to work on Dsmashing more. I've become addicted to completely reading ppl so I just dthrow dair to fair to edgeguard. But I can usually cover more options with dsmash or side b and get just as good a setup for edgeguarding...

I like the way ur thinking. It may give me the edge in this saturdays tourney. NC is having a large loca, with VA Tech and some GA showing up.

 

[kupo15]

Fsmash is such a great move! lol, and it has underestimated range. If opponents are just out of reach, i like to use fsmash because it moves Ganon quite fast with more range than you think. Its much better than trying to hit them with a fair because you got to remember that ganon jumps slow plus the startup lol. This makes all ground moves instantly faster than any air move automatically.

I love how the fsmash just pops them up! Its such a great setup for more stuff. Fsmash>ftilt THEN you follow up with the uair. Sometimes they will DI the Fsmash wrong or the ftilt not expecting it and it instantly becomes more powerful than the fair since bad DI is extremely powerful.

You don't even have to tech chase a smash either. If you CG FFers, they really won't expect it since you never see it and will miss their tech allowing you to Fsmash or dsmash them off the bounce. Looking to smash missed techs is great also. Even Dtilting missed techs is an excellent idea.

Oh and here is a great tip that I def have to use more when you are fighting peach in the tourney. I believe that it gives you better position if you focus more about getting peach to grab the ledge instead of going for a risk edge guard. Peach really has no options from the ledge because of her DJ. Once she is on the edge, just wait and space yourself so that you can hit her with the edge of your dsmash. The dsmash can cover just about ALL of her ledge options. Once you see her do any of the ledge getup animations, charge the dsmash and you will hit her no matter what she does.

Lately I've been obsessed with trying to find the best ways to stay in control longer and go for combos strings that are better than just the Dthrow jab. I'm trying to experiment with a playstyle that you normally don't see ganon's play like. Its fine just being sooo aerial based but I don't feel like that really is the best way to play since a lot of his ground moves are so damaging and his jump is really slow. I'm trying to start with the guaranteed quick ground moves that I know will hit then lead into the air slower moves instead of just swinging Fairs hoping it will hit. Or I like going from air move to ground back to air.

I recently discovered that the first hit nair combos to ftilt at low %. Who would ever expect a Nair>ftilt combo? Also, the second hit of the nair is the only aerial (other than dair) that tumbles at 0%. Attacking someone's shield who is above on a platform with Nair is much better than Uair. You connect both hits and it ACs on the platform for a quick follow up.

 

[-ACE-]

Nah, even if you miss you still get the opportunity to grab the ledge, they just have to option of actually making it back. Which given Ganon's, Marth's and C. Falcon's recovery isn't very far, so you could always ledge hop to punish or whatever. And yeah those coming down aerials are pretty beast. I just think uair is better, since it's safer and faster and just as efficient.

I re-read what you said earlier. At first I thought you meant RLD, uair, then DJ to regrab without using up-B... which can only be done with the added hitstun of landing the uair, I believe.

Oh and kupo, don't waste too much time with fsmash lol.

 

[kupo15]

But it kills Jiggs at 80%!! It was quite useful in my tourney matches actually even though Dsmash is a little better choice

Say NO to unnecessary SHFFLing
​

I have an observation that I want to point out. SHFFLing is not always the best option and I see people doing it for no reason out of habit. A major culprit is the empty SHFFLed fair that misses. I hope ppl realize that by SHFFLing the Fair as soon as possible you are reducing the effectiveness of the move by almost half. This is because you are interrupting tons of active hitboxes as well as the "broken" full range of the move. You should be waiting until his fist is at his side before doing the FF.

You will be amazed at how long the hitbox and range is actually active for when you don't cancel it so soon and can catch a lot of unsuspected ppl with it. Here is a simple comparison.

Ganon Fair : 6 Frames
Doc Fair : 5 Frames

Idk about you, but it seems to me whenever I play that Doc's fair is a slower punch that stays active longer and that Ganon's fair is just a really short lasting fast punch. But Ganon's fair actually lasts longer than Docs. So the fair looks like its faster and over with than it really is.

Another comparison:

Ganon Bair: 6 Frames

We all know how long the bair stays out and that its longer than it seems, well up until now (I just looked these frames up) I thought that bair lasted longer than Fair but its actually not the case.

Because it takes a while to get in the air to do the move, plus the long startup time and long SHFFLed lag, its important that you make the most out the move when you use it. Remember, just because you missed the first hitbox that comes out doesn't mean you missed the move. Likewise, just because you missed altogether doesn't mean you failed either. Sometimes putting that ranged wall of hitboxes out there is a great keep away option that allows you to control the space.

A side note about the Fair. I noticed that you can cover a LOT more range and area if you instantly SHFFL with a full hop instead of a SH. Its a great way to advance/get around projectiles and stuff because the fair will still hit if FFed from a full hop. Once again, you will be surprised just how long the hitboxes are actually active.

This not only applies for SHFFLs from the ground but falling Fairs that start close to the ground.

______________________________

Here is another thing about SHFFLing and why its not always the best. Lets say you are a couple frames away from an AC. Its much better to actually NOT FF to SHFFL just because something in our minds tells us we must do it all the time (I have it too and its a bad habit I need to break) and just slowly float down to the ground. This is because waiting the 2 frames it takes to AC it on the ground (4-6 total with natural landing lag) is faster than FFing and waiting up to 15 frames for the fair to l cancel.

Save the SHFFing for when you actually land the move or know that the move will connect. We aren't foxes, you know, who can get away with it.

Some food for thought

 

[Gardevior]

I like shuffling fairs, well that's a lie, I don't really shuffle fairs that often. But when I do, it's generally not to just hit them (that's an added bonus), but to punish their rolls and techs towards me (I'm retreating and shuffling) and to psych them out. In my very limited experience, people generally get scared when they see ganon shuffling fairs (not spamming them, just throwing a few out). I find that around after the third or fourth one, they'll stop shielding/backing up and trying to his you out of it, and start approaching, which is a position I like to be in (someone approaching me). Then you stop shuffling and do other things.
My $0.02.


Anyway, what do people think about Rainbow Cruise as a counterpick for Ganon?

 

[kupo15]

All I'm saying is, if your going to SHFFL fairs, make sure you get the most out of them because you can SHFFL too quickly and lose out on the max range of the move as well as the length. Even if you are doing it just to scare ppl, its tons more scary when you are doing it with the full range of the move instead of half the range.

Otherwise it will be much easier to punish the L canceled lag when they only have to deal with half the range. Using the full range makes it harder to punish. I know that seems really obvious but if your going to sacrifice all that wind up time with a slow jump and slow windup, you are not doing yourself much good if you aren't throwing out the fair's full value.

You will not believe how many vids I see of ganon's not using the full value of their fairs

**this even goes for when you are jump Fairing out of hitstun**

 

[DippnDots]

i havent played ganon that much lately but i was having a ****ty time against this puff player recently. Camping isn't fun when a bunch of bairs keep showing up >_>

 

[kupo15]

So far, angled up Ftilt has been working for me lately to deal with that. Maybe throw in a down b to trade hits CCed? Or better yet purposely get rested to "rest" her back lol. I don't have much exp with it but I would suspect that your best bet is to stay grounded so you can CC instead of getting walled pained.

 

[-ACE-]

Puff is one of Ganon's hardest matchups. It's often that just landing a single hit on her requires a good read.

 

[kupo15]

Fox is tough. I don't know how to get inside of him and while I'm trying to figure out I'm getting shot at.

 

[DippnDots]

Close in on them, keep in mind that if you take 20% in lasers and only land 1 fair on him, you've pretty much tied up the percents. Don't be scared to take a few lasers to get some ground.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah foxes lasers get very dangerous for him sometimes. remember that you out range fox, but you WILL get hit if you wiff. Take your time, choose your hit carefully. Simply stand far enough away so that you could hit him, but then stare him down.


Sometimes a fox will randomly jump in at you, try to remember how long it took. That length of time is a good gauge of his mental tension limit (mental tension varies by mental pressure over time). The difference between a lot of really good players and ****ing amazing players is the amount of tension they can take before their gameplan brakes down. A lot of people can simply be "bored" to the loss, and this is one of the easiest ways to flip a losing match-up on its head.

 

[RockCrock]

Kupo! I was really enjoying your post about letting fairs auto-cancel from a shorthop, but according to SDM's frame data site, its not possible. Ganon's max SH air time is 33 frames, and the auto-cancel window for his fair only occurs after the 34th frame. In other words, you can't autocancel Ganon's fair from a shorthop.

Also, it's worth clarifying that Ganon's minimum SH time is 24 frames, and the farthest reaching frames of the fair occur on 16 and 17. This means that you are given a 6 frame error window to start the fair after leaving the ground, FF asap, and still maximize the fair's longest

Spoiler

neutral hitbox

range.

However, like you said already, approaching with an unfastfallen fair gives you the farthest horizontal reach (effectively).

Source

 

[kupo15]

Thanks for the positive reinforcement!

Did my post indicate that Ganon can AC his Fair in a SH? lol I didn't think I said that. All I was referring to about AC is that if you are in a position where your move will be ending just before you hit the ground, don't FF because then instead of ACing it, the FF will force you to L cancel it which is more lag.

Believe me, I wish we could AC the Fair in a SH lol ^_^
Sucks that he is only just 2 frames away from it being possible. (but I bet you could DJ as close to the ground as possible and it might act like an AC SH Fair)

 

[kupo15]

I have something that I'm utterly confused why this isn't working. I think it would be an amazing techy AT for ganon to be able to SH>uair/bair>Waveland but it doesn't want to work. I know you can do triple uair from a SH>DJ and at least double bair the same way but for some reason I can't get SH>uair>waveland to work. Why does the DJ work but not the air dodge?

 

[RockCrock]

Because IASA frames do not allow B moves or Shield moves when you are in the air.

If you are on the ground you can: jump, run, attack, shield

Interruptible As Soon As: You can do an attack, jump, dash, turn, crouch, or shield on the IASA frame. You can interrupt with B moves on the ground only.

 

[DippnDots]

I always thought you could only do other attacks out of IASA frames, is that not the case? Can you intiate a dash, wavedash, or roll?

 

[-ACE-]

On KJ64 you can sh uair into perfect waveland really easily if you start at the top of the incline at the bottom level, sh uair toward the center of the stage (so you land lower and thus have more time in the air) and perfect waveland toward the edge into ftilt. Situational but a good surprise sometimes. You can do it on YS also but it's pretty risky since you'd be so close to the ledge.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Yeah the fox matchup requires ridiculous stage control since going offstage= getting ***** by shinespike.

 

[spider_sense]

I find that sh bairs into wavelands help a ton with zoning, you guys should give it a try.

 

[kupo15]

I thought you can't do SH Bair waveland because of the IASA not allowing for shield input? At least when I try it it doesn't work

Also, repped ganon a little bit today.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11270888#post11270888

The doubles matches were sick, they should have been recorded. I think ganon jiggs is a good team combination.

I'm having the hardest time getting away from pressure from like spacies mostly and Falcon's throw game. Any tips?

 

[spider_sense]

I thought you can't do SH Bair waveland because of the IASA not allowing for shield input? At least when I try it it doesn't work

Also, repped ganon a little bit today.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=11270888#post11270888

The doubles matches were sick, they should have been recorded. I think ganon jiggs is a good team combination.

I'm having the hardest time getting away from pressure from like spacies mostly and Falcon's throw game. Any tips?

Yeah my fault, I didn't explain that very well. What I meant was sh bair then use your second jump to waveland back into your opponents, great for zoning down campers near the edge imo.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Hwy guys, I've become a playtester for Project: M. These are some videos of my P:M Ganon, if you're interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2OjG5_iRxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgYM6ssTiew

 

[spider_sense]

Hwy guys, I've become a playtester for Project: M. These are some videos of my P:M Ganon, if you're interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2OjG5_iRxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgYM6ssTiew

Lol love the drug reference in the first vid, but yeah I was playing Project M yesterday. Ganon ***** pretty hard, but he still feels lighter. Alot of stuff he does in melee still works actually pretty well.