Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[DippnDots]

im lovin that dair -> jab

 

[kupo15]

He looks faster in PM. Is he?

 

[DippnDots]

compared to brawl, yeah, he definitely is. Getting out of attack animations at least. Add in the ability to wavedash / dash dance (to some extent) he's faster.

 

[kupo15]

I mean, he just seems extremely fast compared to melee. Like esp his run

 

[Shell]

I remember testing PM Ganon's running speed and finding it to be between Ness and Luigi's, as it should be, not to mention the attribute is taken from Melee directly.

Camelot did some work fixing his jump momentum a while ago, too, so I'm not sure why you think that.

There isn't a lot you can do against spacie pressure. The best thing you can do is roll away to return to neutral status, or possibly grab immediately after the shine. I don't think Grab is safe against perfect timing and spacing, though.

 

[kupo15]

Yea I know that tons of stuff is ripped from melee but its just so odd how ganon seems to be fast as lightening. Maybe people play with a buffer so they do things frame perfect compared to melee?

Is his running animation the same or does it play too fast? I think it animates too quickly.

What did Camelot do with momentum? Ganon has like no jump momentum at all lol. He moves quicker in the air via waveland off platforms than he does from a jump I think lol

And since you are here shell, my observation says that there is a ton of hitlag on his jab that you don't see in melee. If its exactly the same as melee then Brawl has a way of making that hitlag extra noticeable.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I was using the P:M buffer which I think is 10 frames like Melee if I remember correctly.

 

[Shell]

Yes, I think you're correct about jab hitlag. If you have a setup you are welcome to test and fix that. Otherwise I'll get to it.

I'm almost positive he runs at the correct speed distance/time wise, and the animation seems to match up with the speed well. I will double check the animation speed, though.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled Maylay.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so i got ***** by dop's peach yesterday.

any suggestions on how to deal with peach?

i took one match where he probably wasn't focusing, and i was doing my ABSOLUTE best to do nothing but "not get hit". other than that, he at least 2 stocked me.

Florida is good :-\

 

[spider_sense]

so i got ***** by dop's peach yesterday.

any suggestions on how to deal with peach?

i took one match where he probably wasn't focusing, and i was doing my ABSOLUTE best to do nothing but "not get hit". other than that, he at least 2 stocked me.

Florida is good :-\

Tell Dop to come back so I can **** him. Yeah he's pretty good vs Ganon.

Learn how to catch turnips, and bait approaches. Every time you grab her, you should d-throw it should lead into another aerial. If you throw at low % follow it up with a jab or up angled f-tilt so you don't get naired.

 

[Palpi]

Can't you dthrow upsmash at certain percents?

 

[TommyDerMeister]

yeah I think if she is under 60% that can work. Sometimes she likes to DI behind you though, and I can never get an usmash off if she goes behind me.

 

[Shell]

This has probably already been answered before, but what do I do against laser camping, nairshine spacing foxes? It's the only matchup I can't get a hold on.

 

[Palpi]

I have done it before, I just needed clarification. You can do it ... or atleast I have done it before on someone who DI'd behind me.

(Dthrow -> upsmash) ---^

 

[Bl@ckChris]

not full DI behind. turnaround usmash is useful, but they can get far enough where you have to bair sometimes, and at high enough percent, i think they can even get out of bair range.

either way, grabbing her is kind of a chore. spacing bair seems to be useful but eh...idk ****.

 

[DippnDots]

This has probably already been answered before, but what do I do against laser camping, nairshine spacing foxes? It's the only matchup I can't get a hold on.

Keep on their nuts whilst keeping them off your nuts. Work on finding openings to get out of shield pressure, don't always roll either, and work on staying close to fox without being in his danger zone. There's not a specific single thing you can do to get around that play style, you just gotta not be intimidated and take your opportunities when they present themselves. I wouldn't reccomend trying to power shield his lasers because frankly, if you hit him back with 1 laser it doesn't mean **** when one aerial from ganon does almost ten times as much percent, and if you're too close you're just giving him a grab

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Ganon would be amazing if he could walljump

not to imply that he isn't amazing already

 

[Divinokage]

If he had Falcon's run speed.. lol. Like you go super far off stage Fair, covers everything rofl.

 

[kupo15]

I was using the P:M buffer which I think is 10 frames like Melee if I remember correctly.

But melee doesn't have a 10 frame buffer for moves. Its a selective buffer for like jabs and jumps out of hitstun. There might be one more but really, you need to input it frame perfect without help. If that PM ganon is a copy of melee ganon then god **** cause I've never seen ganon move that fast.

not full DI behind. turnaround usmash is useful, but they can get far enough where you have to bair sometimes, and at high enough percent, i think they can even get out of bair range.

either way, grabbing her is kind of a chore. spacing bair seems to be useful but eh...idk ****.

Unless I was mistiming or the DI has to be right, training mode shows that dthrow doesn't combo at all against peach yet it does in a match. I think if the peach DIs above your head you can't combo at all.

 

[-ACE-]

Chris, remember up-angled ftilt at extremely low% out of dthrow. Technically you can always uair out of a dthrow at low% (even if they DI behind at 0% you have enough frames to pivot and sh uair her), but I don't use it until she has some damage on her. You can usually get a follow up too because she'll often be trying to nair out and thus NOT DI'ing. Buffer a roll whenever you know that bair > dsmash nonsense is coming, catch turnips (and drop them immediately if she is close to you), watch out for her fair/dash attack, space your attacks the best you can. Trying to not get hit is always good but sometimes the best defense is a good offense. You can almost always space a fair on Peach (whether she's in the air or on the ground) and get away with it if you're smart about it (her dash attack can surprise you and beat it if you don't space it correctly). And yeah when she's at that optimal 58-65% range or whatever it is, feel free to go for an immediate dthrow when you get a grab (you can even buffer it with c-down if you want) in hopes that you'll get the throw off before she has time to DI. When recovering, if Peach is dsmashing, do a regular tech (not a walltech) and up-B her immediately. If she is very low% it's a tad risky since she could get to you before you grab the ledge (dash attack), but Peach can literally dsmash you out of EVERY OTHER recovery option when you're coming from below.

 

[kupo15]

Why do a standard tech when recovering? I don't think that is such a good idea. What I usually do is a wall tech jump>bair

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if you do that, she can hit you with another part of the dsmash.

 

[kupo15]

I guess it depends which one she hits you with

 

[-ACE-]

All she has to do is hit you with the initial hitbox of the dsmash (super easy). Although walltech > bair would be good to try as a mixup when she is at very low% as it leaves you slightly less vulnerable than the up-B would (imo). Peaches that know the matchup won't let you get away with it very often though, and you will most likely lose your stock.

Edit: Sheik's dsmash is the same way unfortunately.

 

[kupo15]

For the record, I've also seen a double dsmash hit on the standard wall tech as well in the you must recover vid. I guess there is just something special about the up b grab priority that works? I know it does weird things sometimes

 

[spider_sense]

All she has to do is hit you with the initial hitbox of the dsmash (super easy). Although walltech > bair would be good to try as a mixup when she is at very low% as it leaves you slightly less vulnerable than the up-B would (imo). Peaches that know the matchup won't let you get away with it very often though, and you will most likely lose your stock.

Edit: Sheik's dsmash is the same way unfortunately.

I wouldn't try walltech > bair, because at low percents because honestly given Ganon's recovery, she could easily recover and punish again. I'd say at higher percents, because it's more guaranteed to kill and she's gets pushed further away.

 

[kupo15]

But at lower %s you are helpless too long after the Up b for how quickly she recovers. At least with the bair you can just do the whole wall tech thing again

 

[-ACE-]

... you'd at least be able to up-B onstage or possibly hit her with your up-B the next time you recover (since you'd have the opportunity to up-B much closer to the stage if you ff after the bair)

lol. not a fun situation when the peach knows what they're doing.

And Jason, at higher percents I'd just go for the regular tech to up-B for the guaranteed damage and avoid punishment altogether.

 

[Linguini]

Nah ace, I think jason is talking about when the opponent is at high percents, not you; in which case a bair would be more useful because it will hit them far enough for you to fully recover unpunished.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I know he was... Sure the bair would be good at high percents, but so would the up-b since either would knock Peach back far enough for you to recover safely. My main point is, Peaches that play this matchup often will dsmash you out of that walltech (dsmash your up-B with the first hitbox of dsmash, you walltech, then get hit again by the last frame(s) of hitbox of the dsmash) before you even have a chance to bair, which is why I often recommend the regular tech to up-B. It's not a perfect answer to this particular scenario, but there really isn't one imo.

 

[spider_sense]

Yeah I know he was... Sure the bair would be good at high percents, but so would the up-b since either would knock Peach back far enough for you to recover safely. My main point is, Peaches that play this matchup often will dsmash you out of that walltech (dsmash your up-B with the first hitbox of dsmash, you walltech, then get hit again by the last frame(s) of hitbox of the dsmash) before you even have a chance to bair, which is why I often recommend the regular tech to up-B. It's not a perfect answer to this particular scenario, but there really isn't one imo.

Ah, well I guess it's situational then. But I thought you got a little bit of invincibility frames when you wall-tech, even for like a split second. Or if that the hit from the bair to the d-smash should at least trade.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, def situational. You do get some invincibility, just not enough to get a clean hit. I think Magus might have said you have a one frame opportunity for the bair to trade with the dsmash (if you're frame perfect with the bair) but I can't remember.

 

[Pluplue]

samus > ganon get at me

 

[Palpi]

falso

10falsos

 

[DippnDots]

samus > ganon get at me

whatchu need help with boy? sounds like you need to uair more.

 

[kupo15]

Yeah, def situational. You do get some invincibility, just not enough to get a clean hit. I think Magus might have said you have a one frame opportunity for the bair to trade with the dsmash (if you're frame perfect with the bair) but I can't remember.

Yea then it depends on the situation cause that def happened to me before. Though I could have won my MM if I did the walljump Bair instead of up b

 

[-ACE-]

samus > ganon get at me

Do you mean as a character in general or just the Ganon vs Spamus matchup? Either way, it's debatable.

I could have won my MM if I did the walljump Bair instead of up b

Can you elaborate? What happened exactly?

 

[DippnDots]

Lovin that sig ace, I wonder why he could never beat my ganon. I guess frendlies don't mean anything LOL

 

[-ACE-]

Haha, yeah it's ****ing classic.

 

[Divinokage]

It's all theoretical BS anyway, if you say something.. I mean at least back it up on your own or else it just becomes empty words. Of course there are truths to what people say sometimes but still.. I'm pretty sure a spacey played correctly is much more scary than a Marth playing correctly too.