Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[TommyDerMeister]

for ledge hop uairs I go: control stick down-> y-jump+cstick up

I claw.


I actually use a completely different method for ledge hop wavelands for that I'll go:
cstick back->control stick up->R (I normally wavedash with L all other times.) I'm weird I guess.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage... if you played hungrybox, do you think you would you win 45% of the matches?

I think I would if I was as skilled as him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Does anyone have data on invincibility and commitment Ganondorf has on his ledge getup options? Specifically perfect wavelands, the simple ledgehop (not the ledge jump), and ledgehop U-air?

I'm pretty lazy and I don't yet know how to do the waveland or ledgehop U-air consistently, so I'd like to at least know how safe ledgehopping is.

 

[Ace55]

Kage... if you played hungrybox, do you think you would you win 45% of the matches?

If this is how we're gonna rate matchtups then how bad is the Ganon - Peach matchup?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's even. We just don't have any ganons as skilled as armada. But I think if you watch lingion or kage vs like vans, vwins, and other high level peaches, you'd notice that at a similar skill level, it's pretty even.

 

[Divinokage]

it's even. We just don't have any ganons as skilled as armada. But I think if you watch lingion or kage vs like vans, vwins, and other high level peaches, you'd notice that at a similar skill level, it's pretty even.

It's actually slight Peach advantage as well.. When a Peach knows how to play vs Ganon, it's almost gay lol.

 

[SwizzyUK]

Yeah, I played Armada in International Crews. I had 3 stocks, he had 4, and I took his first stock before he took mine, then he just blocked off all my options and there was nothing I could do. It was horrible.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

almost? it is gay when the Peach knows how to play vs Ganon.

 

[LoOshKiN]

ledge-hop with the first hit of Nair anyone? AND land on stage. Didn't know it was possible until I did it myself.

 

[spider_sense]

ledge-hop with the first hit of Nair anyone? AND land on stage. Didn't know it was possible until I did it myself.

lol I just tried it on battlefield and it looks like if you're fast enough, you're able to get invincibility frames along with the free hit. It's funny looking to me. Anyways, Tipped off 6 is looking amazing; can't wait!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Does anyone have data on invincibility and commitment Ganondorf has on his ledge getup options? Specifically perfect wavelands, the simple ledgehop (not the ledge jump), and ledgehop U-air?

I'm pretty lazy and I don't yet know how to do the waveland or ledgehop U-air consistently, so I'd like to at least know how safe ledgehopping is.

^My question...anyone happen to know anything? I am having a hard time finding frame data for basic mechanics in this game.

And Peach vs Ganon is a really really stupid matchup. Her D-smash gimps you really easily since it turns you around preventing wizkick recoveries (never counterpick DL64 against her). Her F-air is a lot like yours, slightly less range, but FLOAT CANCELING IS GAY. She generally combos you better than you combo her partly because it's easier for her to get grabs. Granted Ganon can keep her out decently with F-air spacing, but her reward for getting in is pretty brutal.

 

[kupo15]

Speaking of odd ledge hops. You technically can do a ledge hop fair but it won't come out.

But you can also do that thing that falcon likes to do which is ledge hop waveland off the ledge to ledge jump fair or w/e

 

[Renth]

Speaking of odd ledge hops. You technically can do a ledge hop fair but it won't come out.

But you can also do that thing that falcon likes to do which is ledge hop waveland off the ledge to ledge jump fair or w/e

you can also ledge hop down air but there's no hitbox.

 

[Divinokage]

^My question...anyone happen to know anything? I am having a hard time finding frame data for basic mechanics in this game.

And Peach vs Ganon is a really really stupid matchup. Her D-smash gimps you really easily since it turns you around preventing wizkick recoveries (never counterpick DL64 against her). Her F-air is a lot like yours, slightly less range, but FLOAT CANCELING IS GAY. She generally combos you better than you combo her partly because it's easier for her to get grabs. Granted Ganon can keep her out decently with F-air spacing, but her reward for getting in is pretty brutal.

Well to counter that gimp, you'll have to take a 2nd hit from the D-smash by crouch canceling the first hit. You really have to pick your moves well vs Peach, if you want to win. It's also a good idea not to chase her off stage to begin with, I mean if you don't want to be in a **** position like that in the first place. If you know she's going to approach with a move, I think it's possible to counter with backair. Also if she's above you, upair ftw. But really good Peachs, it's hella annoying approaching them because they always keep a safe spacing until you throw out that move, so that she can counter-attack. Pretty much I hate the matchup because you really have to be patient. Normally when I fight a Peach, it's the matchup that takes the longest to win at.. at least for me, idk about you guys but it's so long.. lol.

 

[DippnDots]

yeah, it's nothing but patience in my experience.

 

[Divinokage]

yeah, it's nothing but patience in my experience.

Well like I said, if you mess up once, she can punish Ganon pretty hard. Stupid patience, I would rather just recklessly punch that *****. lol.

 

[DippnDots]

Question for you purple wizards, What do you do when peach throws a turnip at you then floats in above your head, and she does this so that if the turnip hits your shield or you try to catch it, she hits you with an a fair.

Things i've tried
roll back. I get dash attacked
shield grab, (after the fair hits my shield) i get jabbed after she lands from fair
uair oos, i get hit by the fair

havent tried up-b out of shield, saving grace?

ideally i shouldnt get caught in this trap but, any ideas? maybe im just not being quick enough with whatever decision i go with :\

 

[Bl@ckChris]

depending on where she's coming from, sometimes you can fair over the turnip and hit her.

i think often times i've learned to just jump on a platform. if she still does it, waveland off and hit her with a bair.

its also good to retreating bair the turnip. it keeps space, and if autocanceled, it can give you the frames to retaliate if she continues to approach with that fair that you've outspaced by retreating.

i'm no seasoned veteran though. but playing against dop for a couple hours taught me how to deal with a few situations. there may be even better answers.

 

[Divinokage]

You can backjump, grab the turnip in the air with Z or something.. and then either throw the turnip right away or try to mindgame her with it.. if you are in good positioning you can follow up with an aerial.

 

[DippnDots]

Yeah i dont have much good peach practice at all, i've probably played a total of 3 hours against good peaches, not even joking, then about 6 hours against my friend from high school, and all i did was out space him. I'll try all these, see what works for the given situation. I was getting frustrated of this continually happening to me, the exact same spacing, the exact same outcomes, every time i'd see it coming id just think fcking deja vu again.

 

[kupo15]

I know the situation well because Irish Mafia is quite good at it. But something I noticed that is if you see a peach going to do a full hop turnip throw , you actually can dash right underneath and uair her during the throw lag.

 

[kupo15]

Just made a small discovery. This may sound obvious but I just wanted to publicly state some minute details in the game that will help you out.


For some reason I have been for a while noticing animation but just recently started to pay really close attention to it particularly to jumps. Actually, watching SS has really gotten me interested in animation and movement cause that is the hallmark of his falcon. Not only is it flashy to look at, but it also serves a higher role to enable him to move the way he does.

Everyone has 4 different jump animations: 1 for jumping forward, 1 for jumping backward 1 for DJing forward and 1 for DJing backward.

Even though 2 jump variations represent a DJ and 2 represent a single jump, these animations are not equal. Doing a normal forward jump animation is different than doing a backwards jump forward. These are much more than aesthetics like I thought of for a long time.

For example: Falcon can't reach the top platform in YS with a normal FJ. BUT he can reach the top platform in a backwards jump. The reason why is a difference in animation. He swings his feet over his head which gives him the necessary clearance. This is how SS does all those fancy platform wavelands and stuff on YS!!

So I decided to apply the same concept to ganon and behold there are uses! This small discovery was a result of frustration that ganon doesn't jump high compared to falcon thus it makes it extremely hard to punish the get up attack on certain characters like, Marth.

Here is my small discovery that I will apply immediately. If you do a normal SH to punish Marth's getup attack, you will get hit unless you are directly over his head. Getting punished for a correct read just because ganon's jumps suck is really frustrating and I see this happen in a lot of videos. However, if you do a backwards jump or a backwards forward SH to punish his getup attack, you will not get hit because ganon flips his feet out of the way!!!!

This means that you can have more confidence that your SH stomp will punish a getup attack without the need to go through the slower DJ. You also should be able to fully space a sweetspot Fair from inside of the hitboxes.

Yes, you can also avoid Marth's over 100% get up attack which I believe hits slightly higher. This also applies for several other characters whose getup attacks beat out ganon's normal SH.



TL;DR

Jump animations are not equal. You can't SH over attacks like Marth's getup but you can backwards SH over it because the animation is different even though the height is the same. Use the backwards SH to punish getup attacks, not the normal one


EDIT:

And out of curiosity. Did you know that you can dtilt after you stomp someone when they bounce from a missed tech?

Missed tech>dair them when they are in the air of the missed tech>dtilt/ftilt/jab

 

[A2ZOMG]

Thanks for the tip kupo. I will implement this in my playstyle.

Another thing that's worth knowing: I believe Ganondorf (and Falcon) leans forward a lot when he does his first hit of D-smash. I'm pretty certain it's possible to bait whiffs with that property when you're deliberately spacing the 2nd hit.

Question for you purple wizards, What do you do when peach throws a turnip at you then floats in above your head, and she does this so that if the turnip hits your shield or you try to catch it, she hits you with an a fair.

Things i've tried
roll back. I get dash attacked
shield grab, (after the fair hits my shield) i get jabbed after she lands from fair
uair oos, i get hit by the fair

havent tried up-b out of shield, saving grace?

ideally i shouldnt get caught in this trap but, any ideas? maybe im just not being quick enough with whatever decision i go with :\

If she's spacing herself that closely behind turnips, you could probably just punch through the item and give her a surprise abortion.

But for the most part, if you're GOOD at item catching, that's the best response to Turnips. Item toss -> Ganon F-air is tooooooo goood. It's like the best approach in the game lmao.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I feel like ganon doesn't stay in the air long enough for his turnip t fair to be effective...

and peach doesn't really stay that close to the turnip she tosses. You really would have to evade it and then deal wit peach.

I do think another option is to do a small wavedash back in your shield. The turnip may still hit, but if the peach follows in the same manner as if you were still in the location you were previous to the wavedash, her jabs could miss, and I think ganons grab may outrange it. Not positive though. But minute wavedashes are key in this game. Against falco that tactic works to change a crossover where you get back-shield pressured, into a grab, if they're coming from the top platform like many falcos do.

 

[-ACE-]

You could also retreating sh uair the turnip, which stops the turnip and gives you some additional space without drastically limiting your options. Also if you have enough time you can catch the turnip mid-air and drop it. You can even catch the turnip with a FJ and throw it AWAY from peach and immediately bair her (situational).

 

[Ace55]

Jump animations

Helpful stuff man, never thought of that.

 

[kupo15]

Nice. Glad you guys liked it. I have some more interesting things to point out that to be helpful.

I don't play Project M but I have access to the backroom and the project is all about picking apart melee and finding what brawl did terribly so mechanics are talked about alot. Magus pointed out something about l canceling and hitlag which is helpful to know when you l cancel dairs really close to the ground.

L canceling window is 20 frames (duh) But basically, if you input an l cancel during hitlag, that 20 frame window won't start until after hitlag is over. So if you time the l cancel as soon as the hitbox hits during hitlag, then you will l cancel every time. If you input even a frame before, then that 20 frame window will be going throughout hitlag which for the stomp is extremely long and you'll miss every time.

I just find this information to be comforting to know so you have confidence l canceling that move.


Another thing I noticed that I really think might be helpful as a "wtf" tactic (because sometimes playing "wack as ****" is the way to go) I've mentioned this before but if you do an aerial down b reaaaally close to the ground, the spike hitbox never comes out and you go directly into the ground quake hitbox extremely fast.

Well, everyone knows that ganon's ledge options are fairly predictable and limited but I'm sure doing a ledge hop instant quake attack is not one of them and if done at mid-upper % will cause tumble. An excellent, quick sneak attack surprise that I'm going to experiment with




_________


Oh and a quick question. Is there a way to set your font instead of having to do it for every post? I'm sick of white.

 

[Shell]

I actually feel pretty comfortable on the ledge with Ganon, between the infinite stall, his good ledge dash, quick ledge hop, and decent ledge jump DJ. There are enough things you can do with each option to keep it from getting too predictable, imo.

 

[-ACE-]

I actually feel pretty comfortable on the ledge with Ganon, between the infinite stall, his good ledge dash, quick ledge hop, and decent ledge jump DJ. There are enough things you can do with each option to keep it from getting too predictable, imo.

This. And even in today's metagame most people are surprised by a RLD. Simply put, not enough Ganons use it.

 

[kupo15]

Sorry but what is RLD stand for? Reverse ledge drop?

 

[-ACE-]

Reverse ledge dash.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

it's super fancy and pretty tough.

my ganon opts for a runoff at odd intervals. It's a less technical way to get a surprise bair or dair.

 

[kupo15]

Thats the ledge hop and just run right off the ledge thing, right? Thats pretty easy to do but not sure why I don't do it

 

[Divinokage]

Because it's 2002 tactics.. =P

 

[DippnDots]

it's too ****ing good against samus

 

[Ace55]

This. And even in today's metagame most people are surprised by a RLD. Simply put, not enough Ganons use it.

Agreed, it works surprisingly well. Kinda like ledgehop fsmash.

 

[Tigger]

Ganon has a lot of ledge things he can do.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

I've use RLD every now and then, but most of the time I'm worried I'll mess up my timing. Every time I do it, however, it has always yielded positive effects. I've got new vids to upload against a Falcon player named Rayzorium. You'll see soon enough.

 

[spider_sense]

I've use RLD every now and then, but most of the time I'm worried I'll mess up my timing. Every time I do it, however, it has always yielded positive effects. I've got new vids to upload against a Falcon player named Rayzorium. You'll see soon enough.

Nah, even if you were to mess up, Ganon should just ledge hop and roll back.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well that's the most common messup. I've done one that's the jump and then the airdodge away. I've also ledgehop spotdodged. But if you're even close in the first place, ledgehop back roll is what should happen if ur just a little late.