Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Shell]

What input do you guys use for RLD? I ledge dash by pressing back, forwards on the analog, jump on Y, dodge on L -- I dunno if there's a better way to do the RLD or if I just need to practice until perfect.

 

[kupo15]

Oh that's RLD, yea that is really hard to do.
I use down/left on control stick
x jump
R wavedashes

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Nah, even if you were to mess up, Ganon should just ledge hop and roll back.

And then promptly get punished by your opponent. I don't like being in a situation that I didn't plan.

 

[j3ly]

i enjoy stalling under 100%, no impact landing onto the edge and downBing from there. or dsmash -> bair

 

[kupo15]

I have another pointer that I would like to share that again seems obvious but its a habit I see a lot of ppl doing including myself.

When we recover or if we do off stage edge guarding particularly below the stage, we have this habit of always using our double first then up b for no reason sometimes. In these certain cases, doubling jumping doesn't reach the ledge and then you have to wait until you fall a little bit so you can sweetspot the up b.

So instead, we should just up b right from the start esp if we know the ledge is free and there is no need to stall out with a DJ. Up b'ing automatically loses all jumps anyway so if your in this position where the up b would already sweet spot you after that bair edgeguarding or whatever, then skip the dj and go straight to the up b. Its faster and the chances of being able to continue the edge guard is higher since your not wasting time getting back to the ledge with a useless DJ.

 

[-ACE-]

And then promptly get punished by your opponent. I don't like being in a situation that I didn't plan.

True, but the RLD should be automatic after some practice. I thought it was hard years ago but I never miss it now, 100% muscle memory. And I use down to drop from the ledge and X to jump.

I have another pointer that I would like to share that again seems obvious but its a habit I see a lot of ppl doing including myself.

When we recover or if we do off stage edge guarding particularly below the stage, we have this habit of always using our double first then up b for no reason sometimes. In these certain cases, doubling jumping doesn't reach the ledge and then you have to wait until you fall a little bit so you can sweetspot the up b.

So instead, we should just up b right from the start esp if we know the ledge is free and there is no need to stall out with a DJ. Up b'ing automatically loses all jumps anyway so if your in this position where the up b would already sweet spot you after that bair edgeguarding or whatever, then skip the dj and go straight to the up b. Its faster and the chances of being able to continue the edge guard is higher since your not wasting time getting back to the ledge with a useless DJ.

You're right. Although Ganon can't truly sweetspot, it's a good habit to practice getting back to the ledge as soon as possible. The ledge is a relatively safe place for Ganon, whereas offstage is beyond dangerous.

 

[mers]

Does up-B actually lose your jumps?

I never knew that.

 

[meta Zob]

So this may seem a little off topic but whats the best way for ganon to face Pikachu.

 

[kupo15]

Does up-B actually lose your jumps?

I never knew that.

Yes. Once any char does an up b, they instantly lose all jumps no matter what. That means that kirby won't have any of his 5 jumps if you hit him out of his up b. I thought this didn't apply to side b's but I think it does. I know for a fact that you retain all your jumps if you air dodge though.

I wonder if the up b applies to jiggs. lol. If you tipman her while doing the rest stall then she'd be dead.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBuDtSwQrkE

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS3qgw56wGs

 

[Jane]

good **** getting 1st in dubz, guini!

and also props to rockcrock for getting 7th in singles

 

[DippnDots]

So this may seem a little off topic but whats the best way for ganon to face Pikachu.

Space lol, i can't remember if pikachu can duck ganons grab, but either way try to get grabs on him, free hits. Work on punishing his up-b with a bair.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBuDtSwQrkE

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS3qgw56wGs

Nice Ganon, I personally thought you should have tried a few more D-throw techchases (into F-air) in the first match when you needed that KO, but looks pretty solid.

 

[-ACE-]

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBuDtSwQrkE

Me vs Rayzorium's Falcon 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS3qgw56wGs

Looking good Clue. Basically the only mistakes I saw were minor, with the exception of you missing a few edgeguards from committing too early. It's great to go out offstage after Falcon if his options are limited enough that you know he can't escape your attack, but if you go too early he can often let up and still make it too the edge. Ultimately you know he is either going to go for the ledge (or try to up-B over you), so wait patiently while he closes the gap (when he's closer he has less options and less time to react to your attack) and attack as soon as you know he can't escape.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

so...how do you actually get smarter at this game?

it's become evident that i have enough of the techskill down to be good (ish). but as i've discovered this weekend, i'm not nearly as smart as i thought i was. is it a matter of thinking faster, thinking further ahead, or not thinking at all? (as in it just has to "flow"?)

its been a year. i'm finally tired of being bad even though my ganon "looks" good.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

its been a year. i'm finally tired of being bad even though my ganon "looks" good.

4 years of that for me

 

[Rubyiris]

just stomp *****es and then you win.

 

[-ACE-]

Chris, do you think it might be matchup specifics? I know this is very vague, but you're probably leaving yourself vulnerable to approaches when you shouldn't be. Developing a good defensive game is completely centered around knowing your opponent's options in any given situation. Other than that, there's always stuff like punishing harder, getting better at techchasing, edgeguarding, and of course tech skill... and like you said your Ganon has some tech, you know the vast majority of the Ganon's little tricks but keep in mind that true tech skill means having Ganon do exactly what you want him to do. The difference between good spacing and GREAT spacing can means worlds of difference as far as the outcome of a match or performance in tournament.

 

[A2ZOMG]

so...how do you actually get smarter at this game?

it's become evident that i have enough of the techskill down to be good (ish). but as i've discovered this weekend, i'm not nearly as smart as i thought i was. is it a matter of thinking faster, thinking further ahead, or not thinking at all? (as in it just has to "flow"?)

its been a year. i'm finally tired of being bad even though my ganon "looks" good.

I'm not a very technically intensive Melee player, but Ganon to me is largely a spacing character outside of his intense grab game. If you space everything just right, you can beat almost anyone with him.

In my personal opinion, Ganondorf is a character who has the tools to condition his opponent very easily. I feel that you don't have to be very complicated with Ganon to get in your opponent's head as long as your spacing is solid. Generally I consider my playstyle initially one-dimensional, with the purpose of slowing down my opponent in specific areas and getting them to play on my terms. Obviously F-air and B-air spacing are pretty standard, and when you mix it up with Ganon's tilts, U-air, and other stuff, I feel it's not hard to catch your opponent off guard with Ganon.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

well it probably is. i don't know any matchups but the fox and falco matchups. i live in NC, remember?

i'm sort of understanding what 1 sheik likes to do (DJ) but that doesn't encompass everything sheik is capable of by far. theo (marth) does obvious smart things and thinks at a similar pace as i do, so facing him isn't too hard, although his spacing is very good. we just got dop, so i guess i'll be learning the peach matchup as long as i can actually get matches with him, which will be a challenge in itself. every other character, we lack a player that i can regularly (as tournaments allow) play against and really discuss and learn things from.

i'm pretty much planning on stop being flashy at all. my ganon will change...a lot. spacing against characters i never face is hard. understanding the options of characters i rarely face is also hard. if i were good, i'd just play the whole cast and understand their options especially against ganon but...yeah thats not particularly an option for me.

i just don't know what the approaches are i guess. i thought i knew how to get around turnip -> fair approach given the peaches from NC, but i found myself...getting hit. a lot. from a simple turnip to fair. i still don't understand how. its just (a ton of) things like this that don't make sense.

 

[kupo15]

Flashiness is boring to me. Playing smart is the new flashy.

I like to play falcon before my ganon because he requires a lot of fast thinking and fast fast everything and I find that playing him before my ganon gives my ganon the fast paced thinking mindset that you need.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

Quick tips on the Jiggz matchup?

 

[Shell]

Space Bair / Uair, mixing in Bair / Uair > DJ > Bair / Uair. If you land a grab and your timing's flawless you can sometimes pull off D-throw to Dair, but you risk getting rested if you mess up. Otherwise just D-throw Bair / Uair.

Basically just space like a maniac. That's all I've figured out.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

so...how do you actually get smarter at this game?

it's become evident that i have enough of the techskill down to be good (ish). but as i've discovered this weekend, i'm not nearly as smart as i thought i was. is it a matter of thinking faster, thinking further ahead, or not thinking at all? (as in it just has to "flow"?)

its been a year. i'm finally tired of being bad even though my ganon "looks" good.

Ok, so here's what you do. You have to just change your mode of thinking completely.

Let me give you a sort of example. I had been working on this logic riddle for a couple of hours called the "12 coin" problem. At the very end just before I solved it, I figured that it wasn't my brain that sucked, but rather the way that my brain was organizing and keeping track of information that was sucking. I had been imagining the problem using mental narration, basically having a conversation with myself. I was thinking using the wrong side of my brain essentially. Then after converting to using strictly imagery and no words at all, I was able to imagine the solution fairly quickly. This new mode of thinking has changed the way I view a lot of my problems.

Apply this to melee. You aren't thinking about the right thing while you are playing. I used to just think, "how can I do something f***ing awesome?" but now, I just stare at my opponent and automatically imagine what they should be doing next. The more you do this, the more "psychic" you'll start to become.

Also, you need to have COMPLETE control over your character. Do what you want to do when you want to do it. So don't have flashiness in mind, just timing.

 

[kupo15]

Do you look at your opponent or yourself when you play, chris?

 

[Bl@ckChris]

i've learned to look at my opponent. when i'm doing stuff right, i try to.

but my habit has always been to look at myself. it's very ingrained, and my first 6-8 months of playing competitively, i didn't really consider the idea of looking at the opponent. i only even found the concept when i read through this thread from the beginning and synikal stated its importance.

i don't think i was looking too much at my opponents approaches during pools at TO6. or at least i wasn't focusing on HOW they worked. i have a habit of assuming i'm good, and that retreating bair or a tilt should reject whatever they're doing...even if i'm not really looking at it.

looking and focusing on are two different things. i'm looking and focusing on techs and how they react to certain situations, but i havent yet evaluated myself mid match to the point of recognizing how I react to situations and what does and doesn't work. its a work in progress from now on.

in other news, i'm back to being bl@ckchris.

 

[kupo15]

whoops, sorry about that. As soon as I saw that you responded to the thread I knew I was in the ****ters before I even read it

 

[Bl@ckChris]

haha no worries, i actually like both names. my in game tag will still be True, but having people irl call me true darkness i found to be odd.

so i thought about it today, and i've realized that i'm sort of tired of asking what ganon is supposed to do in matchups. i feel that we've seen these questions asked a multitude of times, and the answers are always space bair, use tilts when necessary, and grab if you can for techchases.

what i want to have now is a discussion not of what ganon is supposed to do, but what other characters are supposed to do against ganon, not as a side story of "falcon will try to nair, but you can bair or ftilt" but as a real, upper level focus, more on the idea of "falcon will probably dashdance and force you into a corner, where you feel like you'll need to throw out a move just to get out from under a platform. really thats not important though. with a quick waveland on the platform, its possible to get out from the corner without commiting yourself to a move that'll get you combo'd"

now whether my above statement is right in the least, i'm not sure. but if possible, if we can focus more on what our opponents are trying to do to us than what we're trying to do to them, i feel like all of us will get a lot out of it.

it'd be great for these discussions if we have players who play both sides of the matchup frequently to also help and discuss (ie a ganon/falcon main or a ganon/marth main to discuss those matchups and what they try to do on BOTH sides, especially while facing ganon)

i plan on having talks like this with the higher level players in my own community, like pp (falco) yay (fox) and dop (peach), and i think other ganons should in their own comminities.

approval/discussion?

 

[spider_sense]

You're not bad at all Chris when I played you, but I did feel you didn't exploit a lot of given situations when they came around. You're actually alot better than you give yourself credit for. lol I don't know if the advice I was telling you was sinking in. But yeah, hit me up on aim. Whenever you need 1 on 1 advice. I'll try to be on tonight. I've actually watched you play some other matches and I don't know if you were watching me vs DJ Rome. But after playing him myself, he's definitely good vs Ganon, but he can also be beaten by Ganon...just ask him to buy you a cheeseburger with that dollar that I took from him in that MM.

 

[-ACE-]

Haha good stuff Jason. Only time I MM'd DJ I 3 stocked him the first match and got cocky, barely lost the next two matches. 3rd match last stock I jumped over a dash attack and dair'd, caught him and started chaingrabbing but ****ed up when he was around 50%. I need to play him again.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

I'm planning on applying a lot of things you advised, especially in regards to tilts. Now that I'm making the switch to be less flashy, being more ground based seems important as well as useful. Your matches with dj were interesting, and I'm certainly not surprised you beat him. You're a good bit faster and smoother than me, and more importantly you space a bit better, and didn't fall for a lot of the crouch baits I get into.

I was hoping you'd shed some light on edgeguarding marth, and how marth edgeguards ganon. What do you hate to see coming at you while you recover, and how do you approach a ganon who is offstage?

edit: dj's probably changed a lot since then ACE. However, good stuff taking that game off of him. They're hard to come by...

 

[-ACE-]

edit: dj's probably changed a lot since then ACE. However, good stuff taking that game off of him. They're hard to come by...

Hard to come by for who? lol

 

[SK919]

Spider sense is legit

 

[Bl@ckChris]

lol they're hard to come by for me at least, ACE.

and yeah, jasons pretty good.

 

[DippnDots]

Pretty good looking :O oh **** son

 

[-ACE-]

Spider sense is legit

Hell yeah, I honestly can't think of another Ganon that is more entertaining to watch.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

spider sense and I had the most fun, amazing, disgustingly flashy matches to ever not get recorded.

 

[kupo15]

Chris, I don't know how you play but here is something that when I do it it really helps and I don't know why I don't do it enough.

For some reason, I feel "manly" when I ignore the differences between ganon and better chars by trying to engage in a fair street fight with characters. But that's stupid. Basically, I don't exploit the stage nearly as much as I should be doing and play each stage the same way. Especially with platforms I sometimes ignore that they are there or forget that running away and making myself harder to catch through platforms is a viable option.

One time I realized that I was getting destroyed on Kongo64 because I was always staying on the bottom. I decided to camp one of the upper platforms and found it so much easier to fight because I making it harder for fox to catch me and do his stuff.

TL;DR
Exploit the stage more to make it harder for ppl to control you. Ganon needs that help.

 

[spider_sense]

I'm planning on applying a lot of things you advised, especially in regards to tilts. Now that I'm making the switch to be less flashy, being more ground based seems important as well as useful. Your matches with dj were interesting, and I'm certainly not surprised you beat him. You're a good bit faster and smoother than me, and more importantly you space a bit better, and didn't fall for a lot of the crouch baits I get into.

I was hoping you'd shed some light on edgeguarding marth, and how marth edgeguards ganon. What do you hate to see coming at you while you recover, and how do you approach a ganon who is offstage?

edit: dj's probably changed a lot since then ACE. However, good stuff taking that game off of him. They're hard to come by...

lol they're hard to come by for me at least, ACE.

and yeah, jasons pretty good.

spider sense and I had the most fun, amazing, disgustingly flashy matches to ever not get recorded.

lol This page is full of win, but everyone I played at TO6 are incredible, keep up the great job guys. I'm gonna try mad hard to go to Pound 5 and hopefully get to play all of you. But anyways, Marth can generally edge guard Ganon fairly easily, kinda why you have to be careful with how to you use your recovery. Matter of fact...watching how you use your jumps and space out your attack is just critical. Oh and for the love of God people, DI away from Marth's fairs. Additionally, Marth can F-smash Ganon, and I that's the hardest thing for Ganon to get around because it comes off from high to low.

 

[Divinokage]

What? Random F-smashes will not hit Ganon.. you can just Fist it or downair it easily.