Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Linguini]

Tipped off was mad fun, I saw jason and blackchris reppin that ganon hard.

I'm so beast in teams now tho haha

 

[spider_sense]

What? Random F-smashes will not hit Ganon.. you can just Fist it or downair it easily.

I meant as an edge guard sir lol **** is so whack.

Tipped off was mad fun, I saw jason and blackchris reppin that ganon hard.

I'm so beast in teams now tho haha

Congrats on getting first. My hero! :swoons:

 

[Flonomenalz]

Hey guys, just started maining Ganon recently. I'm not on a dorm atm, so I can't play Melee with my roommates as much as I usually do (we usually play everyday, but now only Saturdays). I'm moving back in in January, but the only practice I can do against human players is Saturdays. So any ideas on how I can improve my Ganon against CPUs/ by myself? Do I just watch videos and work on my tech skill?

edit: How do you edge cancel? I've been looking for a guide to it and can't find a single one anywhere.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Hey guys, just started maining Ganon recently. I'm not on a dorm atm, so I can't play Melee with my roommates as much as I usually do (we usually play everyday, but now only Saturdays). I'm moving back in in January, but the only practice I can do against human players is Saturdays. So any ideas on how I can improve my Ganon against CPUs/ by myself? Do I just watch videos and work on my tech skill?

edit: How do you edge cancel? I've been looking for a guide to it and can't find a single one anywhere.

To edge cancel, you just do an aerial attack while moving horizontally and land just right across the ledge. If done correctly, the ending of your attack will be canceled and you can immediately come out with another attack.

Someone else can answer the other questions cuz I'm just out of energy.

 

[Shell]

Yeah, you can't really practice much alone beyond techskill.

Work on the following to start with...

-ledgehop, ledgedash, platform dash, waveland. wavedash at different spacings
-SH Bair/Uair DJ
-Familiarize yourself with timings for FH Fair and Dair AC windows
-Practice OoS options
-Work on ledgeteching using proximity mines
-Learn the limits of Ganon's DD range
-Get your SHFFLs down pat
-If you have a second controller, shoot flaco lasers at yourself from different distances and work on PS reflecting them with the other hand (whichever hand you'll use most commonly to PS reflect in the future). It will be harder in a real match but this is a start.
-Ganon Moonwalk for brownie points

That should be enough to get you started.

 

[kupo15]

For the ledge cancel actually, just positioning yourself to go into the teetering animation is enough.

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

For the ledge cancel actually, just positioning yourself to go into the teetering animation is enough.

true but I hate when that happens, cuz with Falcon I'll try to l-cancel since I'm not quite over the edge, but then the "teeter"-cancel happens and opens my shield. Throws me off.

If you have an Action Replay Max, you can study framerates and hitboxes. Also, what I did was activate the infinite shield code, then I just practiced attacking the shield and adjusting to the shield-hit stun and l-canceling. It made me better with what little shield pressure I have, lol.

 

[DippnDots]

lol clue that happens to me quite a bit too

 

[kupo15]

Thats the tricky part about ledge cancels. You need to have faith that it will work without the l cancel..

 

[Hara]

Thats the tricky part about ledge cancels. You need to have faith that it will work without the l cancel..

What's the matter boy, no trust in yourself? Get your head straight and believe!

 

[bliu12]

hey guys. i just started maining ganon too and i saw that i should practice sh bair/uair dj. can you do that with fair and dair too or does it need to be a FJ for fairs/dairs?

also how do you sh bair/dair?
im too slow when i use y/x to jump and then c-stick. i tried jumping with the control stick and it works but feels awkward. i was thinking about jumping with y/x and then sliding over to a right after but that also feels weird cuz im used to c-sticking.

 

[Shell]

You can do SH Bair/Uair DJ Fair/Dair, but you cannot do SH Dair/Fair into anything. Those, as you say, must be FH'd.

I use a mix of techniques for SH Bair/Uair DJ, but I mostly press Y and slide my thumb to A to input the bair in conjunction with the analog stick. That's the same way I do the first fair of SHDF with Marth, and the way I do SHBAWL with Mario. If your thumb is fast enough you can just use the C-stick, though.

 

[Jim & Watch]

-If you have a second controller, shoot flaco lasers at yourself from different distances and work on PS reflecting them with the other hand (whichever hand you'll use most commonly to PS reflect in the future). It will be harder in a real match but this is a start.

Something i found useful, use your toe to shoot falco lasers on another controller, and powershield with your controller in hand. That's how i like to do it.

also, learning to powershield all projectiles to be safe.

 

[Flonomenalz]

Yeah, you can't really practice much alone beyond techskill.

Work on the following to start with...

-ledgehop, ledgedash, platform dash, waveland. wavedash at different spacings
-SH Bair/Uair DJ
-Familiarize yourself with timings for FH Fair and Dair AC windows
-Practice OoS options
-Work on ledgeteching using proximity mines
-Learn the limits of Ganon's DD range
-Get your SHFFLs down pat
-If you have a second controller, shoot flaco lasers at yourself from different distances and work on PS reflecting them with the other hand (whichever hand you'll use most commonly to PS reflect in the future). It will be harder in a real match but this is a start.
-Ganon Moonwalk for brownie points

That should be enough to get you started.

- I have an issue with ledgedashing with Ganon. I can never get above the ledge after I release from it, idk why. I can do it with every other char... =/
- I've been working on SH Bair/Uair, but what does DJ stand for?
- What exactly is an Auto Cancel? And what's the problem with SH F-air/D-air?
- Okay, I'll familiarize myself with OoS options
- Wow never thought about this, thanks.
- DD range, got it.
- Yeah I've been getting my SHFFLs down pat, thanks.
- Yeah I've been doing Falco lasers with a second controller.
- How the crap do you Moonwalk? I've never been able to find a good enough guide, or a good enough explanation.

Thanks.

 

[Shell]

If you can't get above the ledge then you're not pressing forwards and jump soon enough. Try pressing the ledge drop input as quickly and lightly as you can, then immediately jumping and holding towards the stage.

DJ = Double Jump

Auto-Cancel has several meanings since the release of Bawrl. In the loosest sense, it refers to a way to land after performing an aerial attack with less lag than the normal attack landing lag, but without inputting a manual L-cancel. The most common interpretation is where you fully perform an aerial before landing such that you only have normal character land lag of a few frames rather than the 10+ of an aerial attack landing.

Heh, I wouldn't really worry about moonwalking right now. If you want to learn, though, search for moonwalking guides on this forum and you'll get some good reads.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

you will eventually want to use the cstick for retreating bair and retreating fair.

its the only way to get the fully retreating spacing, in my opinion. which will be necessary against spacies and other matchups.

 

[Flonomenalz]

If you can't get above the ledge then you're not pressing forwards and jump soon enough. Try pressing the ledge drop input as quickly and lightly as you can, then immediately jumping and holding towards the stage.

DJ = Double Jump

Auto-Cancel has several meanings since the release of Bawrl. In the loosest sense, it refers to a way to land after performing an aerial attack with less lag than the normal attack landing lag, but without inputting a manual L-cancel. The most common interpretation is where you fully perform an aerial before landing such that you only have normal character land lag of a few frames rather than the 10+ of an aerial attack landing.

Heh, I wouldn't really worry about moonwalking right now. If you want to learn, though, search for moonwalking guides on this forum and you'll get some good reads.

Thanks so much.

I figured DJ was double jump, but what exactly are the uses of SHBaiR/Uair DJ? Also, I just found out that both my controllers are effed up (they have that gunk really gathering underneath the control stick). I borrowed a controller and just plugged it in, and I can ledgedash perfectly.

Ah, so that's what auto-canceling is. I definitely need to get that downpacked.

Yeah, I'll worry about moonwalking later. It just looks so sexy though...

 

[Linguini]

Thanks so much.

I figured DJ was double jump, but what exactly are the uses of SHBaiR/Uair DJ? Also, I just found out that both my controllers are effed up (they have that gunk really gathering underneath the control stick). I borrowed a controller and just plugged it in, and I can ledgedash perfectly.

Ah, so that's what auto-canceling is. I definitely need to get that downpacked.

Yeah, I'll worry about moonwalking later. It just looks so sexy though...

Well shbair/uair DJ are basically give you access to more options. You can counter attack out of a djbair quite easily. For example, a sh uair dj to waveland is a great approach aainst fox in certain situations.

If your'e serious about playing ganon you have to always be open to learning new ****, because he's a lot better character than what he appears to be but has a lot of untapped potential.

That's what i'm trying to fix.

 

[Flonomenalz]

Well shbair/uair DJ are basically give you access to more options. You can counter attack out of a djbair quite easily. For example, a sh uair dj to waveland is a great approach aainst fox in certain situations.

If your'e serious about playing ganon you have to always be open to learning new ****, because he's a lot better character than what he appears to be but has a lot of untapped potential.

That's what i'm trying to fix.

Oh I'm totally serious, I'm definitely open to learning new ****. In all my years of playing melee, the week and a half I've been maining Ganon has been the most fun I've had, and I've had a LOT of fun with some other characters like Weegee and Link. Ganon is just so ****ing powerful, I feel like even if I lose, I still win.

Fkin triforce of power mann

P.S. I get so pissed when people meteor cancel the thunder stomp. That shiet looks so painful it should never be meteor canceled.

Thanks for all the tips guys, I'm about to get started, free day today, let's get that tech skill down.

 

[Jane]

P.S. I get so pissed when people meteor cancel the thunder stomp. That shiet looks so painful it should never be meteor canceled.

srsly. stupid bird with flimsy *** legs gets a true spike, and a gay swordsman with a little ***** *** one handed sword does too.

but ****in GANON gets stuck with a meteor cancel? BEWLSHIET

 

[kupo15]

Ganon needs more air mobility and a better dj imo. Its starting to get on my nerves....

EDIT:
And here is what I think the ganons should focus on:

L canceling (whiffed, hit and shield)
spacing
Frame data of moves
Range of moves
Angling tilts and smashes
Perfect wavelands on plats and especially on flat ground as a means to quickly advance

 

[bliu12]

If you can't get above the ledge then you're not pressing forwards and jump soon enough. Try pressing the ledge drop input as quickly and lightly as you can, then immediately jumping and holding towards the stage.

personally, how do you ledgedash? i know youre supposed to ledgedrop -> dj -> waveland but my inputs are always too slow. i read somewhere in some thread to press back with cstick and then jump with y/x but i never liked it. also, are you supposed to hold the control stick completely horizontal when you land?

 

[LoOshKiN]

It is SO helpful that I wavedash and shield with opposite shoulder buttons. It makes WD OoS SOOO much easier. Matter of fact, I'm workin on being able to powershield with L and/or R and Perfect WD with L and/or R. Every button is viable!

 

[LoOshKiN]

personally, how do you ledgedash? i know youre supposed to ledgedrop -> dj -> waveland but my inputs are always too slow. i read somewhere in some thread to press back with cstick and then jump with y/x but i never liked it. also, are you supposed to hold the control stick completely horizontal when you land?

Ganon's mediocre DJ height allows for perfect ledge hop wavelands. Hold the stick horizontally.

Personally, I tap back on the Analog stick (JUMP! X-Y) and slam towards the stage quickly. It helps a bunch to get Ganon's forward momentum DJ, rather than his backwards momentum DJ (he does a big stupid backflip instead of the cool tuck and cannonball forwardflip).

{also, DJing with no DI gets the animation where he cannonballs}

GL and keep practicing

 

[-ACE-]

personally, how do you ledgedash? i know youre supposed to ledgedrop -> dj -> waveland but my inputs are always too slow. i read somewhere in some thread to press back with cstick and then jump with y/x but i never liked it. also, are you supposed to hold the control stick completely horizontal when you land?

Holding completely horizontal will give you the most distance and that is what most people do. Once you have the ledgedash down you can begin experimenting with the angles to shorten the length of the dash if necessary. For example, if you are about to edgeguard sheik and decide to take the ledge to force her to land on stage, it is possible that she can land onstage, just far enough so that a full-distance ledgedash would take you too far (you'd have to pivot then grab) and a ledgehop > grab wouldn't be far enough (you'd have to ledgehop, dash, and JC grab immediately). In this case you can just do a slightly shortened ledgedash and grab her with ease by tilting your control stick slightly below horizontal.

If you feel like your inputs are too slow you just need to practice. If you can ledgehop, you can ledgedash. Once you are able to ledgehop 100% of the time on command it's time to start learning the timing for R (or L).

1. Drop from ledge
2. Jump IMMEDIATELY (it's important that you don't waste ANY time at all here so that Ganon's DJ can put you above the stage level)
3. Start holding forward IMMEDIATELY (this is especially important when you want to reverse ledge dash [RLD], as you have to be far enough on stage from a ledgehop to be able to airdodge backwards and hit the stage)
4. Pause for a split second (this is the hardest part; learning just how long to pause. It's a very short pause but if you hit R too soon you will just airdodge against the side of the stage and fall to your death).
5. Pick your direction of choice and hit R/L (this is where you can continue to hold foward and do a maximum length ledgedash, angle it down and do a shorter ledgedash, or reverse ledge dash (you are above the stage at this point, so you can wavedash straight down (as a mindgame) as well, but if all you are trying to do is gain some stage control you should just ledgehop since it's faster and much easier.

Personally, I use down to drop, X to jump, and R to airdodge. In my opinion there's nothing wrong with hitting down (I can't remember the last time I've missed a ledgedash), but many good Ganons (including Tipman, unless he's changed his technique) use c-away to drop from the ledge. I believe using this technique you have an extra 1-2 frames where you can DJ and still ledgehop high enough, whereas with my technique you MUST hit jump immediately because if you don't you will begin to fastfall.

 

[kupo15]

Ganon's mediocre DJ height allows for perfect ledge hop wavelands. Hold the stick horizontally.

Personally, I tap back on the Analog stick (JUMP! X-Y) and slam towards the stage quickly. It helps a bunch to get Ganon's forward momentum DJ, rather than his backwards momentum DJ (he does a big stupid backflip instead of the cool tuck and cannonball forwardflip).

{also, DJing with no DI gets the animation where he cannonballs}

GL and keep practicing

Hey, the backflip isn't stupid. It actually serves a better purpose than the cannon ball tuck in some cases.

 

[Flonomenalz]

Great explanation ACE, thanks.

I have a question about the quote in your sig. Is that really true? I feel like Sheik is still Ganon's worst match-up.

 

[-ACE-]

LOL no, not true at all. Sheik is probably the worst but a top level fox will always make you think twice.

 

[LoOshKiN]

Hey, the backflip isn't stupid. It actually serves a better purpose than the cannon ball tuck in some cases.

=) I find it reminiscent of Uair. Stuffing approaches with retreating Uair and Up-angled Ftilts is fantastic.

Nice post Ace. Love your tech-chasing fastfallers guide.

 

[Signia]

I'm just starting out with and Ganon and it seems like he is possibly the most mixup-oriented character. His tech chases and spaced aerials force two-choices in many situations with huge rewards for correct predictions.

Also after watching a few videos I noticed that dthrow jab in situations where it knocks down makes players miss the tech a lot because they are trying to tech the knock down from the dthrow. It looks like this is also a 50/50 mixup situation, as they must choose between teching early or late.

DI mixup, important for a lot of characters, seem extra important for Ganon as well. A strong hit like a Fair or Bair threatens to put them offstage even at low-mid percents if DI'd away. However, DIing in risks getting hit by an extra weaker attack before the stronger one. The so called weak attack still does so much damage though, that DIing in is very dangerous too. It seems like both directions are very dangerous at a wide range of percent in comparison to other characters.

Are these really 50-50s, and are there any other ways to force a mixup with Ganon?

 

[Flonomenalz]

!

Forums are going ape **** over M2K/ADHD brawl scandal.

Hopefully the end result of this is everyone goes back to Melee

=)

 

[kupo15]

Signa, interesting thinking but its not always that way actually. The majority of the time ppl can DI the fair away and ganon struggles to catch up.

If they miss the dthrow jab, more often then not they are far enough away that its still very hard for ganon to follow up easily as he isn't falcon.

____________

Anyway, something interesting is that Ganon can do a FJ Dair and uair before he lands. Could be a cool mixup for ppl who don't expect the uair.

Also, sheik is just terrible. Her ducking animation as well as dtilt can avoid ganons jab, grab, ftilt and fsmash unless you angle the last two down. This includes all lag animations like fair l cancels or missed l cancels and up b landing lag and normal jump landing and even things like the hard landing animation that cancels hitstun at low %.

Do yourself a favor and use low based attacks more often.

 

[Flonomenalz]

Signa, interesting thinking but its not always that way actually. The majority of the time ppl can DI the fair away and ganon struggles to catch up.

If they miss the dthrow jab, more often then not they are far enough away that its still very hard for ganon to follow up easily as he isn't falcon.

____________

Anyway, something interesting is that Ganon can do a FJ Dair and uair before he lands. Could be a cool mixup for ppl who don't expect the uair.

Also, sheik is just terrible. Her ducking animation as well as dtilt can avoid ganons jab, grab, ftilt and fsmash unless you angle the last two down. This includes all lag animations like fair l cancels or missed l cancels and up b landing lag and normal jump landing and even things like the hard landing animation that cancels hitstun at low %.

Do yourself a favor and use low based attacks more often.

FU SHEIK.

Mad spaced b-airs on sheik then, and chain grab whenever possible.

 

[kupo15]

and finish with dthrow>fsmash.

Best combo ever

 

[Flonomenalz]

and finish with dthrow>fsmash.

Best combo ever

YES.

I approve.

 

[Daniel_the_Seraph]

So many new Ganons! How wonderful

LOL no, not true at all. Sheik is probably the worst but a top level fox will always make you think twice.

**** fox. So frustrating. Fox and Peach are *****es to the dark lord.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

what situations can you REALLY grab sheik from?

the only ones I know are shielded dash attack and up b lag. I think all other situations are duckable or jabbed before our grab comes out...

 

[Flonomenalz]

what situations can you REALLY grab sheik from?

the only ones I know are shielded dash attack and up b lag. I think all other situations are duckable or jabbed before our grab comes out...

It's probably gonna be all prediction to grab Sheik. Like, start off with a bunch of SH B-airs or something, then empty hop waveland JC grab when they shield expecting a B-air. Or tech reads into JC grabs.

 

[kupo15]

can you shield grab the ftilt? You can def shield grab the fsmash if they ever use it that is. Other than that all you can really do is combo into a grab. Its dumb.

 

[Flonomenalz]

can you shield grab the ftilt? You can def shield grab the fsmash if they ever use it that is. Other than that all you can really do is combo into a grab. Its dumb.

80-20 match up ftl.